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Random questions:

Yes i know Isha is a captive to Nurgle (ain't that the seeds to the oddest Romantic Comedy of the 40K Millenium).

But i've always wondered, even if she could get away - would she?

Essentially - Nurgle "protects" her from being Slaanesh next meal.

Even if she were freed from her Prison (by let's say Kaldor Draigo leading an army of angry Squats with the Fifth Chaos God Malal ) - wouldn't that essentially lead to Slaanesh stopping by for some Nom Nom Eldar Goddess snacks?


Do any of the Eldar make reference to their long-lost Goddess in fiction or fluff?

And of the two remaining Eldar Gods (Cegorach and Khaine), has there been any type of recorded incident of interaction between them or Isha prior to Slaanesh showing up.

I vaguely recall in the Fulgrim novel, good old Fulgrim making the accusation that Khaine "raped Isha to death." Of course, i'm not quite certain how to square away that statement with what we know.

There are several points to notice.

Eldar gods are quite variable, it's not fully clear if they can manifest as single individuals, are just the collective perception of the Eldar race specific traits/emotions or if they are just some kind of version from the real Old Ones taht fought the war in heaven.

Theorically Nurgle stopped Slaanesh from feed on her (if this lore acounts are true wich are kind of so-so) and if she could run away could be relaitevely safe as long she can *reach* some kind of safety like Webway or the material plane or even a Craftworld to house herself within the infinitry circuit there. But if she remains logged in the warp (wich should be the normal for a warp entity like her) she should end being devoured by Slaanesh.

Eldar lore it's quite short in Cegorach interventions (aside making puns and joking with the gods from time to time) Khaine and Isha with Kurnous had quite a struggle in the *early days* of the Eldar race.

There is also a fluff history about Eldar and Isha after the fall (it appeared in some codex caos i think) the history resolves about a Craftworld believing the history of Isha being a captive of Nurgle and tried to free her just by sending all their psykers into the Warp realm of nurgle, there they fought tirelessly against nurgle demons, but they where finally defeated and become the twisted trees within the garden of nurgle.


The Fulgrim statement may not be a literal but a relative one, as i pointed before there is some clear doubt about Eldar gods being trully individual beings or just aspects of Eldar emotions, Fulgrim may be referencing that in the end the Eldar turned into violence and warlike (Khaine traits before the fall) while ignoring or forgotting about Isha gifts.

Cegorach actively challenges Slaanesh for souls and he's still kicking - so it doesn't seem to be a foregone conclusion. I reckon she could get to the webway and hide away wherever Ceggy is.

I've been working on a theory that Isha and the Emperor have a connection of some kind. It always struck me as odd how much info the Emperor had about the warp and seeing how he's refered to as the "anathema" Isha might be helping him, seeing him as the best weapon to fight chaos with and being his source of info in the warp. It was stated somewhere (Eldar 5th ed codex I think..?) that Isha whispers words to the mortals, which could very well either be snapped up by or be directed to the Emperor.

Also with the whole Perpetual thing going on it makes sence to me that Isha is the source of perpetuals, her being the godess of life and all and "surviving" hanging around Nurgle. A point to this is that the only perpetuals so far encountered have been Eldars and humans.

Maybe she's planning her escape or just want her suffering to end and use the Emperor as her means? Or maybe she just wants her children, the Eldar, to be free of Slanesh? Who can say. All of this is of course just speculations.

Is the AoS timeline still inked to the 40k time line like the wfb timeline was ?

 Nerak wrote:
It was stated somewhere (Eldar 5th ed codex I think..?) that Isha whispers words to the mortals, which could very well either be snapped up by or be directed to the Emperor.

I think that's part of the whole Nurgle captive history, Isha from time to time can manage to whisper words to the mortals and that's how they learn to counter nurgle diseases.

This just really mildly infuriates me that you can talk about these things as though the are random purple that things just sort of happen to in a vacuum that isn't effected by anything else.

Isha is a goddess of rebirth, right? And elder used to have souls that could live on in the warp after death, to be reborn in new bodies, right? Like, they have a goddess if rebirth not by coincidence, it isn't orks or humans who have a goddess of rebirth; the race that used to be reborn in new bodies after death used to have a goddess of rebirth.

Now that goddess of rebirth is supposedly prisoner of the god of the painful struggle scrape it a living. Bizarrely, this happened at the exact time that they stopped being able to be reborn and started having to struggle to cling the one life they have left. It is a metaphor for what happens to the eldar, except it is real.


So,. You can ask stuff like"what would happen if she escaped," but this is something that would only happen if it was simultaneous with the eldar recovering the ability to be reborn.

Yes, isha and Khaine have a long history. Isha hates Khaine, because he kills her children the eldar. Ofc, what that means is thatgoing to war kills eldar.

pelicaniforce wrote:
So,. You can ask stuff like"what would happen if she escaped," but this is something that would only happen if it was simultaneous with the eldar recovering the ability to be reborn.

You mean like if/when Ynnead is born.

 Nerak wrote:
I've been working on a theory that Isha and the Emperor have a connection of some kind. It always struck me as odd how much info the Emperor had about the warp and seeing how he's refered to as the "anathema" Isha might be helping him, seeing him as the best weapon to fight chaos with and being his source of info in the warp. It was stated somewhere (Eldar 5th ed codex I think..?) that Isha whispers words to the mortals, which could very well either be snapped up by or be directed to the Emperor.

Also with the whole Perpetual thing going on it makes sence to me that Isha is the source of perpetuals, her being the godess of life and all and "surviving" hanging around Nurgle. A point to this is that the only perpetuals so far encountered have been Eldars and humans.

Maybe she's planning her escape or just want her suffering to end and use the Emperor as her means? Or maybe she just wants her children, the Eldar, to be free of Slanesh? Who can say. All of this is of course just speculations.

I thought the Emperor had been to the Black Library. In that case the knowledge of the Warp he has most likely comes from there and if he has any connection with an Eldar God it would then most likely be Cegorach (who woul no doubt see him as a good weapon to manipulate against Slaanesh) who is beleived to reside in the Black Library.

pelicaniforce wrote:
This just really mildly infuriates me that you can talk about these things as though the are random purple that things just sort of happen to in a vacuum that isn't effected by anything else.

Isha is a goddess of rebirth, right? And elder used to have souls that could live on in the warp after death, to be reborn in new bodies, right? Like, they have a goddess if rebirth not by coincidence, it isn't orks or humans who have a goddess of rebirth; the race that used to be reborn in new bodies after death used to have a goddess of rebirth.

Now that goddess of rebirth is supposedly prisoner of the god of the painful struggle scrape it a living. Bizarrely, this happened at the exact time that they stopped being able to be reborn and started having to struggle to cling the one life they have left. It is a metaphor for what happens to the eldar, except it is real.


So,. You can ask stuff like"what would happen if she escaped," but this is something that would only happen if it was simultaneous with the eldar recovering the ability to be reborn.

Yes, isha and Khaine have a long history. Isha hates Khaine, because he kills her children the eldar. Ofc, what that means is thatgoing to war kills eldar.

The issue is that GW never make a full explanation about the true nature of the Eldar gods.

Some histories depict them as individual beings being physically capable (or just an aspect of some Old one), other just as a belief that just explain their myths (like the Greece gods), and others as a pseudo manifestation of Eldar conscience thus being only as relevant as Eldar believe in them (similar to Ork belief in Gork and Mork)

In fact there are only 2 Gods we can truly believe remain as Isha it's not so clear, Khaine shards who remain sleeping until the Eldar collective desire awake him to battle(and still a sacrifice it's necessary in order to make ir act) and Cegorach who it's *rumored* often takes the aspects of Great Harlequins and help their own without them noticing until it is very late (or as Futurama properly points "When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.") so we are back at square one with the 3 possible explanations still open for interpretation until GW decide to move the history forward somehow.

 Nerak wrote:
I've been working on a theory that Isha and the Emperor have a connection of some kind. It always struck me as odd how much info the Emperor had about the warp and seeing how he's refered to as the "anathema" Isha might be helping him, seeing him as the best weapon to fight chaos with and being his source of info in the warp. It was stated somewhere (Eldar 5th ed codex I think..?) that Isha whispers words to the mortals, which could very well either be snapped up by or be directed to the Emperor.

Also with the whole Perpetual thing going on it makes sence to me that Isha is the source of perpetuals, her being the godess of life and all and "surviving" hanging around Nurgle. A point to this is that the only perpetuals so far encountered have been Eldars and humans.

Maybe she's planning her escape or just want her suffering to end and use the Emperor as her means? Or maybe she just wants her children, the Eldar, to be free of Slanesh? Who can say. All of this is of course just speculations.

So... we're shipping the Emperor with possibly the only named and major character in the setting who is a good enough mother to act as a counterweight for his terrible parenting?

I approve. Let's sail this ship.

Lord Perversor wrote:

pelicaniforce wrote:
This just really mildly infuriates me that you can talk about these things as though the are random purple that things just sort of happen to in a vacuum that isn't effected by anything else.

Isha is a goddess of rebirth, right? And elder used to have souls that could live on in the warp after death, to be reborn in new bodies, right? Like, they have a goddess if rebirth not by coincidence, it isn't orks or humans who have a goddess of rebirth; the race that used to be reborn in new bodies after death used to have a goddess of rebirth.

Now that goddess of rebirth is supposedly prisoner of the god of the painful struggle scrape it a living. Bizarrely, this happened at the exact time that they stopped being able to be reborn and started having to struggle to cling the one life they have left. It is a metaphor for what happens to the eldar, except it is real.


So,. You can ask stuff like"what would happen if she escaped," but this is something that would only happen if it was simultaneous with the eldar recovering the ability to be reborn.

Yes, isha and Khaine have a long history. Isha hates Khaine, because he kills her children the eldar. Ofc, what that means is thatgoing to war kills eldar.

The issue is that GW never make a full explanation about the true nature of the Eldar gods.

Some histories depict them as individual beings being physically capable (or just an aspect of some Old one), other just as a belief that just explain their myths (like the Greece gods), and others as a pseudo manifestation of Eldar conscience thus being only as relevant as Eldar believe in them (similar to Ork belief in Gork and Mork)

In fact there are only 2 Gods we can truly believe remain as Isha it's not so clear, Khaine shards who remain sleeping until the Eldar collective desire awake him to battle(and still a sacrifice it's necessary in order to make ir act) and Cegorach who it's *rumored* often takes the aspects of Great Harlequins and help their own without them noticing until it is very late (or as Futurama properly points "When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.") so we are back at square one with the 3 possible explanations still open for interpretation until GW decide to move the history forward somehow.

Rumored? Canonically, Cegorach is alive. The Harlequins don't use Soulstones, and they don't do the Dark Eldar pain-eating thing. Their souls don't need feeding or protection because they're under the protection of Cegorach.

Further proof of that protection was seen in the Path Of series - when a Keeper of Secrets appeared, all the regular Eldar/Outcasts/Commorites nearby were disorientated, but the Harlequins were completely unaffected.

And, like I mentioned, Cegorach actively contests with Slaanesh for the souls of Solitaires when they die. He probably can't do that if he's not a warp god himself.

So yeah, he's definitely alive, evidence strongly suggests that he's an actual warp god, and from that we can safely assume that the other Eldar Gods were/are Warp Gods too.

And i'm not debating that Cegorach is not alive or isn't real, just that GW never stated what exactly the Eldar Gods are.

The only fluff history i can think somehow relate about Cegorach doing something personally and physically as entity it's the somewhat related Lady Malys encounter with some entity in the webway. (maybe there is others where Cegorach itself shows and acts as individual instead than just be felt but i do not know)

Harlequin protection from Slaanesh, can be just a side effect of Dark eldar, Exodites , Craftworlders and even Harlequins collective belief that they are just *protected by Cegorach* due the way the Eldar psique works, powerful enough to be effective against Slaanesh and even overpower Ynnead (as it's a Craftworlder belief as best and not all Craftworlds believe on it fully).

Also Eldar souls dissipate into the Warp and then reborn anew in the old times, what happens then to Harlies souls when they die? they remain protected in the Warp thanks to Cegorach? (Doubtly as he has to hide from Slaanesh into the webway) or are they *devoured/fused* into the Eldar collective belief of Cegorach.

The issue is again with GW interpretation of the Eldar gods, it's never fully explained if they are just godlike entities or just godlike emotions/beliefs and thus the debate can become quite endless, as both interpretations can just loophole each other at least until GW moves forward and choses to declare wich one is true.

Lord Perversor wrote:
And i'm not debating that Cegorach is not alive or isn't real, just that GW never stated what exactly the Eldar Gods are.

The only fluff history i can think somehow relate about Cegorach doing something personally and physically as entity it's the somewhat related Lady Malys encounter with some entity in the webway. (maybe there is others where Cegorach itself shows and acts as individual instead than just be felt but i do not know)

Harlequin protection from Slaanesh, can be just a side effect of Dark eldar, Exodites , Craftworlders and even Harlequins collective belief that they are just *protected by Cegorach* due the way the Eldar psique works, powerful enough to be effective against Slaanesh and even overpower Ynnead (as it's a Craftworlder belief as best and not all Craftworlds believe on it fully).

Also Eldar souls dissipate into the Warp and then reborn anew in the old times, what happens then to Harlies souls when they die? they remain protected in the Warp thanks to Cegorach? (Doubtly as he has to hide from Slaanesh into the webway) or are they *devoured/fused* into the Eldar collective belief of Cegorach.

The issue is again with GW interpretation of the Eldar gods, it's never fully explained if they are just godlike entities or just godlike emotions/beliefs and thus the debate can become quite endless, as both interpretations can just loophole each other at least until GW moves forward and choses to declare wich one is true.

Not really, because nothing in any part of the fluff has ever suggested that the Eldar have the same 'Gestalt Field' effect of the Orks that you seem to be attributing to them.

The Harlequins become part of Cegorach upon death, as far as I recall.

As for other things he's done - he fooled the Outsider into eating loads of other C'tan and turning itself insane, he regularly challenges Slaanesh for the souls of Solitaires, and there's a book that's popped up in the Black Library that contains his words. There are a load of other events attributed to him (things like stealing Khaine's sword one time and overseeing something called 'The Wedding of Screams', for example) but they're mostly throwaway lines in various bits of fluff.

While it's never explicitly stated, but at least to me it seems that the Eldar Gods are linked massively to the War in the Heavens between the Old ones and the C'tan.

We know that before the War in the Heavens the warp was a different kinda place, much calmer and more reflective, the Eldar called it the Sea of Dreams. We know that after the War in the Heavens the Chaos Gods were created from the Bloodshed and Galactic wide war, so we know the War has been a crucible for Gods.

We know the Eldar worship Isha as their creator but we know that it was actually the Old Ones. We also know that several things attributed to the Deceiver have also been credited to Cegorarch (driving the Outsider insane, playing both sides of the field). I would argue that the Eldar Gods are the 'echoes' of the major players of the War in the Heavens, having been told as stories and myth for so long it became religion and subsequently a pantheon.

As for if Isha could escape, I think it's entirely possible shes gone insane. shes been Nurgles captive for a very long time, wouldn't it be funny if she's got stockholm syndrome and she's fallen in love the jovial fat sod? I'd ship it.

 Robin5t wrote:
Not really, because nothing in any part of the fluff has ever suggested that the Eldar have the same 'Gestalt Field' effect of the Orks that you seem to be attributing to them.

Wait - didn't Xenology do something like that?

I honestly can't remember because its been so long.

GrapeApe wrote:

 Robin5t wrote:
Not really, because nothing in any part of the fluff has ever suggested that the Eldar have the same 'Gestalt Field' effect of the Orks that you seem to be attributing to them.

Wait - didn't Xenology do something like that?

I honestly can't remember because its been so long.

I need to recheck xenology but the Eldar DO posses a 'Gestalt Field effect' like orks but is warp bounded. Orks it's a localized one, the more Orks together and believing in it to work but the Eldar is a dislocalized one their very own toughts and emotions taking shape in the Warp.

Also it's quiet a testament to them that even being a dying race the Eldar beliefs in Cegorach and Khaine can manifest them on such ways than the whole Mankind belief in the Emperor.

Lord Perversor wrote:

GrapeApe wrote:

 Robin5t wrote:
Not really, because nothing in any part of the fluff has ever suggested that the Eldar have the same 'Gestalt Field' effect of the Orks that you seem to be attributing to them.

Wait - didn't Xenology do something like that?

I honestly can't remember because its been so long.

I need to recheck xenology but the Eldar DO posses a 'Gestalt Field effect' like orks but is warp bounded. Orks it's a localized one, the more Orks together and believing in it to work but the Eldar is a dislocalized one their very own toughts and emotions taking shape in the Warp.

Also it's quiet a testament to them that even being a dying race the Eldar beliefs in Cegorach and Khaine can manifest them on such ways than the whole Mankind belief in the Emperor.

what?? please link me to the eldar gestalt field effect

Orks Gestalt field in a nutcase, the more concentrated they are the more powerful it becomes, weirdboyz get stronger powers, they feel more stronger and courageous. (localized by Ork proximity bounded to Orks numbers but itself)

Eldar *pseudo gestalt field* or their highly developed psyker minds and essences in a nut case, a Craftworld goes to a great war they unified minds manifest an Avatar of Khaine becoming alive and be able to go toe to toe with Greater Daemons of chaos, or pre-fall where their whole race was capable to create a brand new Chaos God from nothing, capable to stand toe to toe in some cases with the other previous 3 Greater gods. (not a localized event but just happens in the Warp as billions of Eldar souls across a galaxy empire just happening into an alternative reality)


just for comparison Humans *kind of Gestalt field or collective belief* trillions upon trillions of souls believing in the Emprah, yet it keeps slowly decaying and literally does nothing.



So to put it short, the Old ones create Eldar to fight the War in Heaven and make them quite powerful, this lead to issues as their collective toughts become so powerful that the Warp begin to stirs (Enslavers invading real space)

They *perfect* the Eldar or try to avoid further Warp issues, Orks are developed similar power but localized within themselves and out of the warp they rely on numbers.

Mankind appears, their collective belief/souls can do gak to alter the warp or make things happens, closer thing is Sororitas faith manifestations, wih to be honest it's kinda lacking when you compare numbers with prevous two races.

What's your source for all of this?

Because a lot of it runs contrary to big portions of the fluff.

 Robin5t wrote:
What's your source for all of this?

Because a lot of it runs contrary to big portions of the fluff.

There is no source about the True nature of the eldar gods in lore, thus all the options y suggested are valid possibilities hinted by GW until they become a fact by again GW making a history explainning it.

The big portions of the fluff, definig the Eldar gods as you claim is fluff within the fluff, there are practically no histories depicting the Eldar gods acting at all unless you take into consideration the very own histories and legends the Eldar tell about their gods.


So my knowledge may be lacking but i encourage you to show me the following things happening in the lore. ( and i mean a true history not an Eldar history about their gods says how XX did YY )

An Eldar god punishing/blessing a worthy champion for their cause.
A History depicting the Eldar god physically interacting with their followers.
Any Eldar god making a noticeable action within the lore, or just making a direct opposition to another gods/force and that can't be explained as *the Eldar believe in *