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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/23 06:47:35
Subject: Airbrush paint rubbing off metal models
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Speedy Swiftclaw Biker
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I recently started airbrushing and I have noticed the paint coming off too easily on metal models. I prep the model by washing it with dish soap and warm water, then prime with valejo primer; letting it dry for 24 hours. I use GW paints thinned with water. When finished I varnish with valejo satin varnish. After that process if I rub an area such as a corner or point with my thumb using medium pressure, the paint will rub off to bare metal. Is this the sort of durability I should expect? I tried rubbing paint off another metal model that was brush painted and not varnished and the paint was fine.
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Do I have something in my teeth?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/23 08:23:19
Subject: Airbrush paint rubbing off metal models
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Incorporating Wet-Blending
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Vallejo primer is mediocre on metal and resin, I tend to use rustoleum 2x rattle cans
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/23 08:40:32
Subject: Airbrush paint rubbing off metal models
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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A primer for metal will work better than the Valljo. The Rustoleoum cans as recommended above, or similar car primer paint from DIY shops.
It's also a good idea to varnish figures. I use a coat of spray gloss polyurethane followed by matt.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/23 08:59:56
Subject: Airbrush paint rubbing off metal models
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Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf
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kb_lock wrote:Vallejo primer is mediocre on metal and resin, I tend to use rustoleum 2x rattle cans IMO Vallejo primer is also mediocre on plastic
Tamiya also make a metal primer, can't say I've tried it though.
Things labelled as "etch primers" are typically designed to stick to metal. Always test a primer on something you don't care about first though, some primers are designed to go on very thick and aren't suitable for miniatures.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/23 09:30:06
Subject: Airbrush paint rubbing off metal models
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Speedy Swiftclaw Biker
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Ok so it sounds like it's a primer issue. I have a unit on the painting table primed with the same valejo primer. Should I use a better primer over the existing primer or attempt and probably fail at removing the valejo primer?
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Do I have something in my teeth?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/23 09:33:33
Subject: Airbrush paint rubbing off metal models
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Frenzied Berserker Terminator
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If you prime again over a dodgy coat of primer you'll probably still get the same problems.
Out of interest, which Vallejo primer are you using? I started using the airbrush polyurethane-acrylic primer fairly recently and so far it's been bulletproof when airbrushed. It admittedly didn't go on as nicely when brushed on though...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/23 10:24:33
Subject: Airbrush paint rubbing off metal models
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Speedy Swiftclaw Biker
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Crispy78 wrote:If you prime again over a dodgy coat of primer you'll probably still get the same problems.
Out of interest, which Vallejo primer are you using? I started using the airbrush polyurethane-acrylic primer fairly recently and so far it's been bulletproof when airbrushed. It admittedly didn't go on as nicely when brushed on though...
This is what I'm using http://www.acrylicosvallejo.com/en_US/primers/family/22
Automatically Appended Next Post:
After posting that link I realized that it is a water based primer. That just might be the problem.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/05/24 02:11:36
Do I have something in my teeth?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/23 15:34:30
Subject: Airbrush paint rubbing off metal models
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Using Inks and Washes
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Weird.
Although that link didn't take me straight to the page you must have been on, I was able to get to the main site and look from there. The page I ended up on was very confusing, in big bold letters it said that the primer was solvent based, but in the text, it was claimed to be water based.
Unfortunately, it can't be both at the same time.
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"Ask ten different scientists about the environment, population control, genetics, and you'll get ten different answers, but there's one thing every scientist on the planet agrees on. Whether it happens in a hundred years or a thousand years or a million years, eventually our Sun will grow cold and go out. When that happens, it won't just take us. It'll take Marilyn Monroe, and Lao-Tzu, and Einstein, and Morobuto, and Buddy Holly, and Aristophanes…then all of this…all of this…was for nothing. Unless we go to the stars." Commander sinclair, Babylon 5.
Bobtheinquisitor wrote:what is going on with APAC shipping? If Macross Island were real, they'd be the last place to get any Robotechnology. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/23 16:48:43
Subject: Re:Airbrush paint rubbing off metal models
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Utilizing Careful Highlighting
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the link has a period on the end it shouldn't, remove it and it'll work fine
I use the light grey polyurethane primer as a brush on and in my airbrush, not had issues
Some have reported issues with Vallejo primers, I've personally not had a bad experience.
Just from all the different opinions I keep reading it really sounds like perhaps there is some bad batches out there. I don't know.
At any rate, if you can use a rattle can primer, go for it like kb_lock says. I air brush or brush on because our humidity makes spraycan priming almost impossible without issues.
Other questions -
did you let the miniature air dry fully after washing? when they say don't thin the primer, they really mean it, I had tried that with some left in the bottom of my last bottle, ruined it. Also, just having any water beading on the miniature can make it not stick. I let mine air dry because it's too difficult to be absolutely sure you've gotten everything off in the little nooks and crannies on most minis, I've found.
did you handle it directly while working on it? oils from your skin are not good on metal minis
I varnish between every layer almost, on metal minis, both as a way of saving the work (since I work on a lot of things at once) and as a way to protect it.
It does sound like a primer issue for whatever reason as the others have said.
Anyway, hopefully this helps some. Good luck!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/23 16:49:53
Subject: Airbrush paint rubbing off metal models
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Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf
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Conrad Turner wrote:Weird. Although that link didn't take me straight to the page you must have been on, I was able to get to the main site and look from there. The page I ended up on was very confusing, in big bold letters it said that the primer was solvent based, but in the text, it was claimed to be water based. Unfortunately, it can't be both at the same time.
Well, technically water is a solvent. Any substance that dissolves another substance is a "solvent". It's just in the paint industry "solvent" is a shortening of the term "organic solvent", which refers to a specific subset of solvents. You can also be organic solvent based but water mixable. It's confusing terminology. That link isn't working for me either, but I assume Caveman is referring to the polyurethane primer? I've used a couple of different pots of Vallejo's primer and have been thoroughly unimpressed with the lack of strength. The main reason I bother to prime miniatures at all is to make the paint tougher, and Vallejo's primer just isn't all that tough. It also takes ages to cure properly and doesn't sand nicely, which are 2 other important factors for me when I prime something.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/23 16:54:24
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/23 20:04:52
Subject: Airbrush paint rubbing off metal models
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Colonel
This Is Where the Fish Lives
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AllSeeingSkink wrote:Well, technically water is a solvent. Any substance that dissolves another substance is a "solvent". It's just in the paint industry "solvent" is a shortening of the term "organic solvent", which refers to a specific subset of solvents. You can also be organic solvent based but water mixable. It's confusing terminology.
Yeah, but no one calls water based paints "solvent" based despite the fact that, chemically speaking, water is a solvent. Vallejo aerosol primers are solvent based, which is what that link says, whereas the ones that come in the bottles are not. For whatever reason, their website is giving the aerosol primers a description of their acrylic-polyurethane primers (along with a picture). The bottom line is that the Vallejo website pretty much sucks. I've used a couple of different pots of Vallejo's primer and have been thoroughly unimpressed with the lack of strength. The main reason I bother to prime miniatures at all is to make the paint tougher, and Vallejo's primer just isn't all that tough. It also takes ages to cure properly and doesn't sand nicely, which are 2 other important factors for me when I prime something.
When a model is properly cleaned and the primer is allowed to cure, I have found that Vallejo Surface primer to be pretty damn tough. These X-wing cannons were primer with Vallejo black acrylic-polyurethane primer and allowed to fully cure. I painted it with Tamiya paint and I put some barber pole decals on them, decided I didn't like and would rather paint them, and I couldn't get the decal off. I decided to strip it with Super Clean (which is much stronger than Simple Green) and left it soak for a day or so and then scrubbed it with a stiff bristle toothbrush. The decal and paint came off but the primer was completely unharmed by the soaking or scrubbing:
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/23 20:29:38
d-usa wrote:"When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/23 20:24:26
Subject: Airbrush paint rubbing off metal models
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Dakka Veteran
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I agree it's probably the base coat. You could always do a test with different base coat products. Paint them on and allow to dry for 24-48h, then test if they will rub off easily.
Of course you need to remember to let the varnish to dry for 24h or so, as well, so that all layers have hardened properly - I've noticed that sometimes fresh paint will make older layers a bit soft as well. Small amount of air flow will help with curing, for example a small table fan. On the other hand, oil and grease from fingers would negatively affect the sticking process, so attaching the model on some painting holder and wiping the model with some alcohol right before painting might help.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/05/23 20:30:51
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/23 20:53:29
Subject: Airbrush paint rubbing off metal models
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Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf
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ScootyPuffJunior wrote:AllSeeingSkink wrote:Well, technically water is a solvent. Any substance that dissolves another substance is a "solvent". It's just in the paint industry "solvent" is a shortening of the term "organic solvent", which refers to a specific subset of solvents. You can also be organic solvent based but water mixable. It's confusing terminology.
Yeah, but no one calls water based paints "solvent" based despite the fact that, chemically speaking, water is a solvent.
Umm, yeah, that's why I said "It's just in the paint industry "solvent" is a shortening of the term "organic solvent"". When a model is properly cleaned and the primer is allowed to cure, I have found that Vallejo Surface primer to be pretty damn tough.
Compared to what? I find them far more susceptible to scratching and peeling compared to any aerosol primer I've tried. I honestly haven't found any non-aerosol primer I like that isn't a lacquer or an enamel (though I haven't tested everything, at this point I'm getting a bit tired of spending money on products I use once and then sit on my shelf for eternity, I'm at the point where I need to start throwing out things I've not used because I'm running out of hobby space  ). Your Super Clean test is interesting, but only shows that for whatever reason the stripper didn't soak in to the primer and strip it as well as it did the top layer of paint. Since I tend not to pour paint stripper over my models while gaming with them, rather they tend to get scratched, your example is not necessarily a representative test. Some paints do tend to be more solvent resistant without necessarily being more scratch resistant. It doesn't surprise me at all that the Tamiya paint stripped easily, I assume it was Tamiya acrylic? I use Tamiya acrylic quite often and it's tough in the sense it resists scratches, but I've learned from (painful  ) experience it does a very good job of soaking up solvents, especially the matte varieties, though I'm sure it depends on the specific colour. The gloss varieties not so much, but the glosses take ages to cure properly so I don't use them as much any more. If it was Tamiya enamel, I'm not as familiar with that, but in general enamels are quite scratch resistant but can potentially be delicate with some specific solvents, to the point where I've seen some cool weathering effects achieved by painting acrylics over enamels and using a solvent which softens the enamel before it softens the acrylic to create bleeding effects.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/05/23 21:01:01
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/24 02:17:48
Subject: Re:Airbrush paint rubbing off metal models
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Speedy Swiftclaw Biker
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Link fixed.
The models were completely dry after washing. I attach models to a base when painting so handling is at a minimum. I let the primer dry for 48 hours before applying other paint. I've painted a lot of models and I haven't had any issues until now. There are only two things I'm doing different in my process now compared to my previous process. First is the primer. In the past I always used citadel or army painter spray can primers. The second is airbrushing base coats. I'm using water to thin my paints. I know that a lot of people use windex, I don't know why. The next thing I'll try is priming another model in a different primer and airbrush the base coats and highlights and see if it holds up.
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Do I have something in my teeth?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/24 08:06:05
Subject: Airbrush paint rubbing off metal models
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Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf
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I don't use windex, but I know using a specific airbrush thinner can make paint stick better than using water. Depends on the thinner of course, but many airbrush thinners are themselves strong solvents that will allow the paint you're currently spraying to bite in to the previous layer. That shouldn't really affect whether it rubs off the metal itself though.
I haven't used GW's Corax White, but I used to use Skull White and I found it to be tougher than Vallejo's PU primer in general for plastic models. Never done a comparison on metal models though.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/24 08:16:19
Subject: Airbrush paint rubbing off metal models
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Using Inks and Washes
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I use Vallejo bottle primers almost exclusively now. I find their grey is a little light, so add some of the black to it to darken it. I have had no problems so far, although I do add a little flow improver to help it go through my airbrush and to make cleaning afterward easier.
I always found rattlecans to produce thick layers which could obscure fine detail, airbrushing helps immensely with that. Depending on the model, have you thought of using one of the "Mr Surfacer" grades?
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"Ask ten different scientists about the environment, population control, genetics, and you'll get ten different answers, but there's one thing every scientist on the planet agrees on. Whether it happens in a hundred years or a thousand years or a million years, eventually our Sun will grow cold and go out. When that happens, it won't just take us. It'll take Marilyn Monroe, and Lao-Tzu, and Einstein, and Morobuto, and Buddy Holly, and Aristophanes…then all of this…all of this…was for nothing. Unless we go to the stars." Commander sinclair, Babylon 5.
Bobtheinquisitor wrote:what is going on with APAC shipping? If Macross Island were real, they'd be the last place to get any Robotechnology. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/24 08:31:30
Subject: Airbrush paint rubbing off metal models
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Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf
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Conrad Turner wrote:I always found rattlecans to produce thick layers which could obscure fine detail, airbrushing helps immensely with that.
When using a rattle can you have to use quick sweeps to keep paint from building up too quickly. You can put down pretty thin layers if you have a good technique. Though some automotive primers are specifically designed to be laid on thick so they can be post-sanded, those types aren't great for miniatures. Depending on the model, have you thought of using one of the "Mr Surfacer" grades?
I mostly use Mr Surfacer. I really like it, but I haven't tried it on metals. The main downside to Mr Surfacer is that it's a lacquer, which means you need to thin it with lacquer thinners and clean up with lacquer thinners. Lacquer thinners can be harsh on rubber seals in an airbrush so it's recommended to use an AB with teflon seals. Gunze (the people who make Mr Surfacer) also make a specific Mr Metal Primer as well, again I haven't tried it as I simply don't paint a lot of metal models these days.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/24 08:32:42
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/24 13:02:39
Subject: Airbrush paint rubbing off metal models
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Colonel
This Is Where the Fish Lives
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AllSeeingSkink wrote:Umm, yeah, that's why I said "It's just in the paint industry "solvent" is a shortening of the term "organic solvent"".
Then why even bring it up?
Compared to what?
Tamiya Surface Primer and Alclad Primer/Microfiller, the two other primers I use on a regular basis.
Your Super Clean test is interesting, but only shows that for whatever reason the stripper didn't soak in to the primer and strip it as well as it did the top layer of paint. Since I tend not to pour paint stripper over my models while gaming with them, rather they tend to get scratched, your example is not necessarily a representative test.
Except for the part that involved me rubbing the surface with a stiff bristle brush to remove the paint. If you're harder on you miniatures that I was scrapping paint off those cannons, I don't know what to tell you.
Some paints do tend to be more solvent resistant without necessarily being more scratch resistant. It doesn't surprise me at all that the Tamiya paint stripped easily, I assume it was Tamiya acrylic? I use Tamiya acrylic quite often and it's tough in the sense it resists scratches, but I've learned from (painful  ) experience it does a very good job of soaking up solvents, especially the matte varieties, though I'm sure it depends on the specific colour. The gloss varieties not so much, but the glosses take ages to cure properly so I don't use them as much any more. If it was Tamiya enamel, I'm not as familiar with that, but in general enamels are quite scratch resistant but can potentially be delicate with some specific solvents, to the point where I've seen some cool weathering effects achieved by painting acrylics over enamels and using a solvent which softens the enamel before it softens the acrylic to create bleeding effects.
Tamiya acrylic paint is pretty tough, especially compared to Vallejo and GW acrylics, which is why I prefer it (that and it's really matte and sprays extremely smooth).
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d-usa wrote:"When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/24 16:06:48
Subject: Airbrush paint rubbing off metal models
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Lieutenant General
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AllSeeingSkink wrote: Conrad Turner wrote:I always found rattlecans to produce thick layers which could obscure fine detail, airbrushing helps immensely with that.
When using a rattle can you have to use quick sweeps to keep paint from building up too quickly. You can put down pretty thin layers if you have a good technique. Though some automotive primers are specifically designed to be laid on thick so they can be post-sanded, those types aren't great for miniatures.
I use Duplicolor Flat Sandable Auto Primer for all of my priming needs after seeing it recommended by Aly McVey (of Studio McVey) back when she was painting professionally for Privateer Press. I've never had a loss of detail or any other problems with this primer when laying down an appropriately thin coat, but YMMV with other brands.
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'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/24 16:47:59
Subject: Airbrush paint rubbing off metal models
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Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf
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ScootyPuffJunior wrote:Except for the part that involved me rubbing the surface with a stiff bristle brush to remove the paint. If you're harder on you miniatures that I was scrapping paint off those cannons, I don't know what to tell you.
Yeah but that's after you've applied a stripper, a stripper will soften paint and to different degrees. It also softens the outer layer before the inner layers. It will soften mattes faster than glosses. It will soften different amounts depending on the base of the paint (acrylic vs polyurethane). Basically my point is you added an extra variable which makes the test invalid. I haven't done a scientific test to ascertain which primers are toughest on which substrates, perhaps I should to put the matter to rest. I just have the models to prove where Vallejo primer has failed me and thus why I no longer use it. Automatically Appended Next Post: Ghaz wrote:AllSeeingSkink wrote: Conrad Turner wrote:I always found rattlecans to produce thick layers which could obscure fine detail, airbrushing helps immensely with that.
When using a rattle can you have to use quick sweeps to keep paint from building up too quickly. You can put down pretty thin layers if you have a good technique. Though some automotive primers are specifically designed to be laid on thick so they can be post-sanded, those types aren't great for miniatures.
I use Duplicolor Flat Sandable Auto Primer for all of my priming needs after seeing it recommended by Aly McVey (of Studio McVey) back when she was painting professionally for Privateer Press. I've never had a loss of detail or any other problems with this primer when laying down an appropriately thin coat, but YMMV with other brands.
Yep, some will be good, others not so much, I always recommend testing it on something you don't care about before spraying it on your models. I picked up a spray "primer" from an automotive store and it lays down very thick, it's how it's designed to work, but it's inappropriate for models. Luckily I bought it for doing automotive body work rather than painting miniatures so it does exactly what I want It's good to have a list of sprays that people recommend for miniatures because it can be a hassle trial and erroring it yourself, especially with spray paints that vary in availability across the globe (Krylon often gets mentioned by US customers because it's in almost every hardware store, but is hard to find and expensive over here).
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/05/24 16:54:48
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/24 20:24:38
Subject: Airbrush paint rubbing off metal models
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Colonel
This Is Where the Fish Lives
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AllSeeingSkink wrote:Yeah but that's after you've applied a stripper, a stripper will soften paint and to different degrees. It also softens the outer layer before the inner layers. It will soften mattes faster than glosses. It will soften different amounts depending on the base of the paint (acrylic vs polyurethane).
I don't think you are following me here. I soaked the painted piece in a degreaser/cleaner. I vigorously scrubbed the paint off down to the primer. I soaked the piece again and continued to scrub in an attempt to remove the primer. It didn't come off. If you think that isn't as rough as knocking a miniature over on a table, you are soundly mistaken. If I had sanded it it or tried to scrape it with a knife edge, I'm sure it would have come off (but Alclad and Tamiya can't resist that either).
Basically my point is you added an extra variable which makes the test invalid.
Yeah, okay.
I haven't done a scientific test to ascertain which primers are toughest on which substrates, perhaps I should to put the matter to rest. I just have the models to prove where Vallejo primer has failed me and thus why I no longer use it.
That's probably because you didn't use it right. I had problems with it too until I learned the right way to use it: clean the model of oil and residue, spray in light layers, allow each layer to be dry to the touch before added the next one, completely cover the entire surface, then let it fully cure. The only downside is that it isn't as sandable as lacquer based primers, but I guess that's a trade off for not being volatile.
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d-usa wrote:"When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/25 01:36:46
Subject: Airbrush paint rubbing off metal models
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Incorporating Wet-Blending
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How many layers of primer are you using spj?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/25 23:35:37
Subject: Airbrush paint rubbing off metal models
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Colonel
This Is Where the Fish Lives
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As many as it takes to fully cover the surface and leave no plastic showing through, which I've found to usually be around three.
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d-usa wrote:"When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people." |
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