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 jhe90 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, there aren't too many variables. Vehicles straight up suck in 7th. The have way too many liabilities.

Oh, are princes T5? They are the poverty MCs then. Proper MCs have T6, making it impossible to one shot them or remove their FNP. Totally fair. The fact that MCs fight at full strength until they are dead, combined with how much STUFF you have to throw at them to kill them is pretty crazy. And don't forget the grenade nerf.

A leman Russ can be immobile, stunned, lose weapons and such. A mc loses nothing.
Mc is imune to any reduction in combat effectiveness unlike the tank.

Super heavy however at least gives tanks a chance.

They're still garbage compared to GMCs. And some MCs. A Riptide is so much better than an IK it's disgusting. I picked up the Renegade box, but I'm wondering if they will make my lists better or worse.

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 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

Traditio wrote:

Sidstyler wrote:The riptide is neither a superheavy nor a GMC. I acknowledge the riptide is a problematic unit (one of many, actually), but I hate how people are lumping it in with other "Apocalypse-type" units and calling for it to be banned just because it's a larger than average model and they don't like it.

Seconded. I strongly dislike the riptide (as I do the Tau in general); however, a discussion of the riptide is simply out of place in the context of this thread. They're not superheavy vehicles or gargantuan monstrous creatures. They're just regular monstrous creatures. Overpowered, overly durable, undercosted regular monstrous creatures.

Personally I would prefer it if superheavies and GMCs were just better-balanced so that taking them wasn't such a huge advantage in the first place, or otherwise considered a "dick move". That's what you're supposed to do when something is broken, you fix it.

There's still the problem of scale. Does an IK really need to be in the same game as a tactical marine?

You just defended the rip tide. A model roughly the same size with roughly the same amount of killing power. So, let me ask you this. Does a fire warrior belong in the same game as a stormsurge? What makes a stormsurge legal but a knight not? The label super heavy?

And on a note of MCs, are they seriously that strong? Give me an example of an " Overpowered, overly durable, undercosted regular monstrous creature." Actually, on second thought make a poll of it

Riptide and Dreadknight for sure. Arguably the six wound Tyranid MCs, because the heaviest weapons take away wounds one at a time.

Do tyranids really need more nerfs? And for the knight what makes it op? I know the answer for the 'tide but I don't see anything wrong with the knight. It's point cost is justified imo.

T6 2+ / 5++ with a chance for 4++ is stupid durable for the price. It sucks up like what, 14 BS 4 lascannons or meltaguns? And is practically immune to krak missiles and poison weapons? Yeah, totally fair.

You know what I can get for 235 in my codex? Nothing remotely that tough. That's what. That's cheaper than a full squad of DC and that thing will please don't use this term like this on Dakka. Reds8n the DC. For the record, it takes 19 WS 4 power fist swings to kill this thing. NINETEEN. You know how many tanks that would destroy? That damn near kills an IK.

Martel732 wrote:
No, there aren't too many variables. Vehicles straight up suck in 7th. The have way too many liabilities.

Oh, are princes T5? They are the poverty MCs then. Proper MCs have T6, making it impossible to one shot them or remove their FNP. Totally fair. The fact that MCs fight at full strength until they are dead, combined with how much STUFF you have to throw at them to kill them is pretty crazy. And don't forget the grenade nerf.

Shouldn't the grenade nerf help the vehicles? Plus, the argument of a regular MC still stands. It doesn't matter if it's a "poverty" mc or not it still is.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, there aren't too many variables. Vehicles straight up suck in 7th. The have way too many liabilities.

Oh, are princes T5? They are the poverty MCs then. Proper MCs have T6, making it impossible to one shot them or remove their FNP. Totally fair. The fact that MCs fight at full strength until they are dead, combined with how much STUFF you have to throw at them to kill them is pretty crazy. And don't forget the grenade nerf.

Shouldn't the grenade nerf help the vehicles? Plus, the argument of a regular MC still stands. It doesn't matter if it's a "poverty" mc or not it still is.

OMG. So there is one MC with T5. It's not like S10 is super common. I'd still rather have a T5 MC than a Russ hull or a Landraider. So many fewer things can go wrong. Melta? Don't care. Doesn't double me out. Lascannons? Don't care. Powerfist? Don't care.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, there aren't too many variables. Vehicles straight up suck in 7th. The have way too many liabilities.

Oh, are princes T5? They are the poverty MCs then. Proper MCs have T6, making it impossible to one shot them or remove their FNP. Totally fair. The fact that MCs fight at full strength until they are dead, combined with how much STUFF you have to throw at them to kill them is pretty crazy. And don't forget the grenade nerf.

Shouldn't the grenade nerf help the vehicles? Plus, the argument of a regular MC still stands. It doesn't matter if it's a "poverty" mc or not it still is.

It helps slightly, but it helps MCs a lot more.

But you can get a librarian dreadnought with force and insta-gib it in one hit. I can also get 100 or so grots and I couldn't touch a land raider, it should be banned right?

You just don't get it. A libby dreadnought will be glanced out before it even gets close to this thing. You can shoot autocannons at MCs at all day, they'll bounce them with their armor saves. But dreads and tanks get their HPs chipped out with no save. Plus a libby dread is super overcosted. I'd never use one. They are garbage. There are very few cost effective ranged weapons against MCs in the whole game. That's why they are OP compared to vehicles.

A land raider can't get hurt with anything less than str 8/melta/armourbane. str 3 can hurt t 5. How is that the same? And str 10 can be still achieved. I know for a fact there is at least 3 options in my codex, each which can be spammed.

Land Raiders are utter garbage, though. Contribute nothing, and get immobilized in potholes. And hold units that are equally garbage. Oh, and get immobilized after a single grav hit. And are completely ignorable. Wow so awesome. They are fighting for the worst unit in the BA codex, which says something. And the unit they usually carry is ALSO fighting for worst unit in the codex. And that's in arguably the worst codex. So they are quite literally the worst of the worst.

" str 3 can hurt t 5"

Str 3 can wound T6 as well, but it's usually irrelevant. MCs, due to poor wounding numbers and 3+ armor, are functionally immune to small arms, just like a tank. You'll never cause enough wounds to stop them before they have killed your unit. Especially if they have 2+ armor.

" And str 10 can be still achieved

Probably not in a cost effective manner. So it will never hit the table. You know what IS cost effective? Grav. I can get Str 10 too, I can choose from useless Vindicators, useless dreadnoughts, and a useless chief librarian. I can see my enemies quaking already.

" You can shoot autocannons at MCs at all day, they'll bounce them with their armor saves." Replace mc with vehicle and armour saves with armour value and that's my argument. And as for saves go, cover saves and invulns exist, i.e. bjorn's special rule and psychic powers. And as for your lib dread getting chipped off before it even gets there why won't the dreadknight? It can be hurt just as easily. Mass shots are as easily accessed as high str melta. Tau will light up that mc until he's a christmas tree and force so many saves he'll be dead in a turn. At least pulse rifles can't kill a dreadnought's front AV.

To get back on track, I'm not arguing vehicles are better/as good as an MC, I'm just saying that MC's are not OP as everyone seems to be suggesting.

" It can be hurt just as easily"

No, it can't. That's the whole point. Do the math. You don't have enough pulse rifles to down a dreadknight. You're going to have to use something bigger. It takes 43 BS *5* pulse rifle shots to kill it. So that's an investment of four markerlight shots and 43 pulse rifle shots. And and there are like 4 of these things. Good luck.

Yes, MC's are that OP. Because high toughness and lots of wounds is REALLY good in 7th ed.

Martel732 wrote:
Land Raiders are utter garbage, though. Contribute nothing, and get immobilized in potholes. And hold units that are equally garbage. Oh, and get immobilized after a single grav hit. And are completely ignorable. Wow so awesome. They are fighting for the worst unit in the BA codex, which says something. And the unit they usually carry is ALSO fighting for worst unit in the codex. And that's in arguably the worst codex. So they are quite literally the worst of the worst.

" str 3 can hurt t 5"

Str 3 can wound T6 as well, but it's usually irrelevant. MCs, due to poor wounding numbers and 3+ armor, are functionally immune to small arms, just like a tank. You'll never cause enough wounds to stop them before they have killed your unit. Especially if they have 2+ armor.

" And str 10 can be still achieved

Probably not in a cost effective manner. So it will never hit the table. You know what IS cost effective? Grav.

Of course grav is. It's the new boys in blue's new toy. Shouldn't that balance out mc's then? Grav would make mulch out of a riptide.

And trust me, blood angels are definitely not the worst codex. Buy dozer blades if you're tired of getting immobilized.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Land Raiders are utter garbage, though. Contribute nothing, and get immobilized in potholes. And hold units that are equally garbage. Oh, and get immobilized after a single grav hit. And are completely ignorable. Wow so awesome. They are fighting for the worst unit in the BA codex, which says something. And the unit they usually carry is ALSO fighting for worst unit in the codex. And that's in arguably the worst codex. So they are quite literally the worst of the worst.

" str 3 can hurt t 5"

Str 3 can wound T6 as well, but it's usually irrelevant. MCs, due to poor wounding numbers and 3+ armor, are functionally immune to small arms, just like a tank. You'll never cause enough wounds to stop them before they have killed your unit. Especially if they have 2+ armor.

" And str 10 can be still achieved

Probably not in a cost effective manner. So it will never hit the table. You know what IS cost effective? Grav.

Of course grav is. It's the new boys in blue's new toy. Shouldn't that balance out mc's then? Grav would make mulch out of a riptide.

And trust me, blood angels are definitely not the worst codex. Buy dozer blades if you're tired of getting immobilized.

Land Raiders can't buy dozer blades.

I'm not going to trust you, because I live the BA codex, and I doubt you can name a worse primary codex right now.

It takes a sick amount of grav to down a Riptide. It takes 20 BS 4 grav shots to down a Stimtide, and that's without the nova shield. With the shield, it bloats up to 41 BS 4 grav shots. Tell me again how it mulches it.

Martel732 wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Land Raiders are utter garbage, though. Contribute nothing, and get immobilized in potholes. And hold units that are equally garbage. Oh, and get immobilized after a single grav hit. And are completely ignorable. Wow so awesome. They are fighting for the worst unit in the BA codex, which says something. And the unit they usually carry is ALSO fighting for worst unit in the codex. And that's in arguably the worst codex. So they are quite literally the worst of the worst.

" str 3 can hurt t 5"

Str 3 can wound T6 as well, but it's usually irrelevant. MCs, due to poor wounding numbers and 3+ armor, are functionally immune to small arms, just like a tank. You'll never cause enough wounds to stop them before they have killed your unit. Especially if they have 2+ armor.

" And str 10 can be still achieved

Probably not in a cost effective manner. So it will never hit the table. You know what IS cost effective? Grav.

Of course grav is. It's the new boys in blue's new toy. Shouldn't that balance out mc's then? Grav would make mulch out of a riptide.

And trust me, blood angels are definitely not the worst codex. Buy dozer blades if you're tired of getting immobilized.

Land Raiders can't buy dozer blades.

I'm not going to trust you, because I live the BA codex, and I doubt you can name a worse primary codex right now.

Sisters of battle. Overcosted infantry, unreliable heavy support, limited unit choice. Orks, pricy boys, crap vehicles, crap armour, unreliable guns, crap ld. At the end of the day blood angels are still space marines. They lack formations but they've still got that sweet, sweet grav and bikes etc. They'd lose to a cheesy marine list but I don't see how they're that terrible, everyone is bad when compared to the big 4 so I wouldn't feel bad about that. Oh, and mine can get dozer blades. Guess that means BA are the worst codex.

Sisters are considerably better than BA. The reasons are more known to Sisters players, but they will back me up on this.

I'm not aware of any Land Raiders that can get dozer blades.

"They'd lose to a cheesy marine list but I don't see how they're that terrible"

They lose to a LOT more than that. Tyranid MCs are unmanageable, Eldar and Tau you can forget. The DA just drive around and plasma me to death. Try playing them and then get back to me. It's not theoryhammer for me. I've tried to beat these lists, including sisters. They are all uphill battles because there is literally not a truly effective unit in the whole book. TRULY effective.

Martel732 wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Land Raiders are utter garbage, though. Contribute nothing, and get immobilized in potholes. And hold units that are equally garbage. Oh, and get immobilized after a single grav hit. And are completely ignorable. Wow so awesome. They are fighting for the worst unit in the BA codex, which says something. And the unit they usually carry is ALSO fighting for worst unit in the codex. And that's in arguably the worst codex. So they are quite literally the worst of the worst.

" str 3 can hurt t 5"

Str 3 can wound T6 as well, but it's usually irrelevant. MCs, due to poor wounding numbers and 3+ armor, are functionally immune to small arms, just like a tank. You'll never cause enough wounds to stop them before they have killed your unit. Especially if they have 2+ armor.

" And str 10 can be still achieved

Probably not in a cost effective manner. So it will never hit the table. You know what IS cost effective? Grav.

Of course grav is. It's the new boys in blue's new toy. Shouldn't that balance out mc's then? Grav would make mulch out of a riptide.

And trust me, blood angels are definitely not the worst codex. Buy dozer blades if you're tired of getting immobilized.

Land Raiders can't buy dozer blades.

I'm not going to trust you, because I live the BA codex, and I doubt you can name a worse primary codex right now.

It takes a sick amount of grav to down a Riptide. It takes 20 BS 4 grav shots to down a Stimtide, and that's without the nova shield. With the shield, it bloats up to 41 BS 4 grav shots. Tell me again how it mulches it.

20 grav shots isn't that hard to get. Grav cents. devs, tacs with normal guns in them. That can amount to 20 pretty quick.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Replace mc with vehicle and armour saves with armour value and that's my argument. And as for saves go, cover saves and invulns exist, i.e. bjorn's special rule and psychic powers.

Flawed argument.
A vehicle's "Toughness" value is their armour value. They have no equivalent to an Armour Save.

Effectively, all vehicles are MCs but can be instakilled by weapons that don't double out their equivalent Toughness, lose effectiveness throughout combat, and have no armour save. And tend to cost more.
Explain how that's fair.


And I want to see these Land Raiders with dozer blades - could you show this?

Guess what BA don't have? Grav devs or grav cents. Congrats, you just killed a 225 pt model with 800 pts of grav. Show me who's boss. And then the Tau kill all of your grav on the return fire, and still have 2 Riptides and Stormsurge on the table. Good luck with that.

Martel732 wrote:
Sisters are considerably better than BA. The reasons are more known to Sisters players, but they will back me up on this.

I'm not aware of any Land Raiders that can get dozer blades.

In my wolves dex, "May take items from the space wolves vehicle equipment list". There's a dozer blade in there.

How are they better? I'll wait for the sister players to come in until I'm convinced.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Sisters are considerably better than BA. The reasons are more known to Sisters players, but they will back me up on this.

I'm not aware of any Land Raiders that can get dozer blades.

In my wolves dex, "May take items from the space wolves vehicle equipment list". There's a dozer blade in there.

How are they better? I'll wait for the sister players to come in until I'm convinced.

Well I know vanilla and BA can't do it. It's one of the major complaints about the Land Raider. In addition to all the other downsides of being a vehicle.

One way Sisters are better: when that Ion accelerator hits, Sister lose fewer points. T3 is not nearly the liability it used to be now that S6+ spam is very common. Sucking down incoming fire is very important, and BA suck at it.

"At the end of the day blood angels are still space marines."

But space marines without their invis gravstars and Gladius formations are a bad list. That's what the BA codex is telling us. The days of the meq being good are over again. We're back to 2nd ed.

Martel732 wrote:
Guess what BA don't have? Grav devs or grav cents. Congrats, you just killed a 225 pt model with 800 pts of grav. Show me who's boss. And then the Tau kill all of your grav on the return fire, and still have 2 Riptides and Stormsurge on the table. Good luck with that.

This is not a BA vs. other codices argument, it's a "Should blank be banned" argument. Because tau are op should princes and knights be banned? I don't think so. You cannot just blanket ban like it's nothing because your codex isn't effected. That's selfish.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Guess what BA don't have? Grav devs or grav cents. Congrats, you just killed a 225 pt model with 800 pts of grav. Show me who's boss. And then the Tau kill all of your grav on the return fire, and still have 2 Riptides and Stormsurge on the table. Good luck with that.

This is not a BA vs. other codices argument, it's a "Should blank be banned" argument. Because tau are op should princes and knights be banned? I don't think so. You cannot just blanket ban like it's nothing because your codex isn't effected. That's selfish.

Why shouldn't I? Everything GW has done since the GK 5th ed codex has gakked all over my list. It's gotten worse and worse and worse with everything they released. I don't think MCs should be banned, just made more expensive. That, or give other lists the tools to deal with them. Which most don't, currently. What are the IG supposed to do? They die, that's what they do. They can't hope to stop a modern MC-based list. What are Orks supposed to do? They die, too.

Even a space marine gladius is only winning because of objectives. In a kill point game, those MCs are going to stomp all over a gladius.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Replace mc with vehicle and armour saves with armour value and that's my argument. And as for saves go, cover saves and invulns exist, i.e. bjorn's special rule and psychic powers.

Flawed argument.
A vehicle's "Toughness" value is their armour value. They have no equivalent to an Armour Save.

Effectively, all vehicles are MCs but can be instakilled by weapons that don't double out their equivalent Toughness, lose effectiveness throughout combat, and have no armour save. And tend to cost more.
Explain how that's fair.


And I want to see these Land Raiders with dozer blades - could you show this?

I still think a vehicles crazy high toughness makes up for it, as well as other saves you can get (like cover, psychic like I already said) but alas, it seems we won't agree. But that does not make MCs op. That's like me not using grey hunters because tacs can get gravs and that's worse than plasma or some similar argument. It also seems like you're only comparing them to offensive tanks, what about raiders? Rhinos? Are they inherently bad because they are vehicles? Remember, often their role is transportation.

Btw for the blades, see my other post.

You can think that, but the math shows that you are wrong. AV's just aren't high enough in general to make up for not having an armor save. And yes, that makes MC's OP in comparison. That's the very definition of OP. Something that is too good for its price.

I think I've already explained my position on land raiders.

Rhinos are weak, but at least they are cheap. Sometimes, free even. And have two firing points. This buys you one turn before the Tau kill you. It's better the be the MC and just never die in the first place.

If I were you, I wouldn't use grey hunters because of lack of grav cannon. Just as I avoid BA tacs like the plague.

Martel732 wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Guess what BA don't have? Grav devs or grav cents. Congrats, you just killed a 225 pt model with 800 pts of grav. Show me who's boss. And then the Tau kill all of your grav on the return fire, and still have 2 Riptides and Stormsurge on the table. Good luck with that.

This is not a BA vs. other codices argument, it's a "Should blank be banned" argument. Because tau are op should princes and knights be banned? I don't think so. You cannot just blanket ban like it's nothing because your codex isn't effected. That's selfish.

Why shouldn't I? Everything GW has done since the GK 5th ed codex has gakked all over my list. It's gotten worse and worse and worse with everything they released. I don't think MCs should be banned, just made more expensive. That, or give other lists the tools to deal with them. Which most don't, currently. What are the IG supposed to do? They die, that's what they do. They can't hope to stop a modern MC-based list. What are Orks supposed to do? They die, too.

Even a space marine gladius is only winning because of objectives. In a kill point game, those MCs are going to stomp all over a gladius.

A riptide can't kill 30 conscripts with a priest. And I thought you were trying to get them banned like super heavies etc in normal games, apologies. Yes, some should be raised in price, specifically the bad offenders. And how many MCs do you think people use? 1 or 2 could stlll be killed by a gladius I think, but maybe you could do the math for me Heck, I've seen a skyhammer list destroy a flyrant tyranid list. MCs aren't invincible, remember.

MCs are damn close. Not quite 2++ rerollable, but it's frequently very hard to bring the firepower to bear that you need because of terrain. You know, that terrain everyone says makes the game more fair? Yeah, makes MCs that much better.

"A riptide can't kill 30 conscripts with a priest."

It doesn't need to.

As for the ban, bring all the SHV and SHW you want. They are vulnerable for sure compared to MCs and GMCs. Again, vehicles sucking. They just suck a bit less, but boy do they pay for it.

"And how many MCs do you think people use?"

A hell of a lot more than 1 or 2. Tau frequently have a Riptide wing and a Stormsurge now. Nids can rock anywhere from 5 to 12. As for the gladius, it depends if you are rolling with grav cannons on your tacs or not. Makes a big difference.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Replace mc with vehicle and armour saves with armour value and that's my argument. And as for saves go, cover saves and invulns exist, i.e. bjorn's special rule and psychic powers.

Flawed argument.
A vehicle's "Toughness" value is their armour value. They have no equivalent to an Armour Save.

Effectively, all vehicles are MCs but can be instakilled by weapons that don't double out their equivalent Toughness, lose effectiveness throughout combat, and have no armour save. And tend to cost more.
Explain how that's fair.


And I want to see these Land Raiders with dozer blades - could you show this?

I still think a vehicles crazy high toughness makes up for it, as well as other saves you can get (like cover, psychic like I already said) but alas, it seems we won't agree. But that does not make MCs op. That's like me not using grey hunters because tacs can get gravs and that's worse than plasma or some similar argument.

What? You've missed it completely at the end.

Vehicles are immune to small arms fire, but are weaker to mid and high strength weapons. MCs are resistant to all types - small arms because of Toughness, mid strength because of their high Armour Save, and high strength because they can't be one-shotted. The vehicle Armour Value can easily be matched to a MC's Toughness, and they STILL have no Armour Save.

Any save a Vehicle can get, a MC can too - that doesn't help your argument. Not to mention MCs can get that cover easier, due to the lack of Immobilised tests.

As for that final argument, I have no idea how that relates to the point.

It also seems like you're only comparing them to offensive tanks, what about raiders? Rhinos? Are they inherently bad because they are vehicles? Remember, often their role is transportation.

Because a Rhino doesn't cost 250 points. A Land Raider, and other attack vehicles like it, cost lots, disproportionally to their resilience compared to MCs.

I'm not asking for a ban on MCs - I'm asking for equality between Vehicles and Monstrous Creatures, because at the moment, there is a massive power gap.

Martel732 wrote:
You can think that, but the math shows that you are wrong. AV's just aren't high enough in general to make up for not having an armor save. And yes, that makes MC's OP in comparison. That's the very definition of OP. Something that is too good for its price.


Rhinos are weak, but at least they are cheap. Sometimes, free even. And have two firing points. This buys you one turn before the Tau kill you. It's better the be the MC and just never die in the first place.

So I should never take anything but MCs. I can't help but feel that is a little bit of flawed thinking.

And if the facts prove me wrong then I concede on the armour value argument, but I still don't think vehicles are obsolete and MCs are op because vehicles will always be used in 40k, no matter what because lists often can't function without them and MCs aren't an auto win situation like everyone thinks they are. Good? Yes. OP? I don't think so. 40k needs re-adjusting? Yes.

I got the Renegade box set, but I'm questioning whether IKs would help BA or not. Or if there is any helping them at all. 6 HP is pretty low for the price tag of those things.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You can think that, but the math shows that you are wrong. AV's just aren't high enough in general to make up for not having an armor save. And yes, that makes MC's OP in comparison. That's the very definition of OP. Something that is too good for its price.


Rhinos are weak, but at least they are cheap. Sometimes, free even. And have two firing points. This buys you one turn before the Tau kill you. It's better the be the MC and just never die in the first place.

So I should never take anything but MCs. I can't help but feel that is a little bit of flawed thinking.

And if the facts prove me wrong then I concede on the armour value argument, but I still don't think vehicles are obsolete and MCs are op because vehicles will always be used in 40k, no matter what and MCs aren't an auto win situation like everyone thinks they are.

They aren't AUTO-WIN. They are just far more effective compared to Vehicles.

Either make MCs on the same level as their equivalent vehicle, or buff vehicles to the equivalent MC level.