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Here are some common sense changes I think should be applied across the board:

Space Marines

Problem: Bolters are weak/Space Marine Tac Squads are one of the worse troop choices in the game
How Many Times I've Heard This: 10 or more times, each
(I'm keeping these here until I hear another suggestion I can agree with, even if they are unpopular)

Solution 1: Change Bolter Statline (also applies to chaos)
Change Heavy Bolters to Heavy 4-5
Change Bolters to AP 4 and give a "Jams" special rule (on a roll of one that model cannot fire next turn as it clears out the jam, having a techmarine with the unit removes this special rule)
Alternatively
Make Bolters Salvo 2/1 and Heavy Bolters 3-4/2

Solution 2: Increase size of Tac Squads
Raise Tac, Scout, Vanguard, Sternguard, Command and Crusader Squads troop minimum to 6
Raise Tac, Scout, Vanguard, Honor Guard and Sternguard Squads troop maximum of 12
Raise Crusader maximum number of initiates and neophytes to 12 (24 total)
Change Drop Pods, Rhinos, and Basic Land Raiders to carry 12 men
Change Razorbacks to carry 7 men, Land Speeder Storms to 6 men
Change all Chaos equivalents accordingly. (Plague, Noise, Rubric, Berserker, Chosen, Standard up to 6, increase max transport of rhinos, land raiders to 12)
Change all Guard equivalents accordingly. (Infantry, Veteran, Special Weapon, Scion Squads, up to 6/12, increase max transport capacity of Chimera, Taurox to 12)

Solution 3: Narthecium
Let Chaplains take Narthecium
Let Apothecaries be an HQ choice

Problem: Terminators are overcosted and cannot use heavy weapons
How Many Times I've Heard This: 5 or more times, each

Solutions:
Change Terminators to T5
Give them 2 wounds
Let them each take option from heavy weapons (excluding grav cannons)
raise point cost to 40-50 points a model, depending on changes

Problem: Centaurians are a huge point sink and do not have invul saves
How many times I've heard this: 3 or more times

Solutions:
Give Assault and Devestator Centurians 4+ invul saves
Give Devastator Centuarians take Assault Cannons at as default weapons
Give Assault Centuarians take a TL Flamestorm Cannon as default weapons
Raise all Centaurians Point Costs to 60-70, depending on changes

Problem: Flakk Missiles are overcosted and Missile Launchers are too expensive
How Many Times I've Heard This: a dozen or more

Solutions:
Change cost of Missile Launchers to 10 points, and extra 5 for flakk


Problem: Orks are fethed to hell
How Many Times I've Heard This: 10,000 or more times

Solutions 1: Undo 7th Ed Nerfs
Unnerf Nobs, bring back squads painboy and cybork body options, make warbikes "entire squad may take"
Unnerf TankHammers, make them S 10 again
Unnerf Mob Rule, just put it back the way it was
Unnerf Killa Kans, get rid of "cowardly grots!" rule
Restore Nobz and Meganobz as Troop Choices when you take a Warboss or Ghazghkull
Restore "Da Big Dok" special rule on Grotsnik

Solution 2: Basic Buffs
Up Base Strength to 4 (they are orks for gorks sake!)
Make 'ard boys cost 3 points (Same price as IG vet squads)
Give Boys an extra CC weapon for 1-2 points
Up Burna's to S5
Change Initiative to 4
Give Nobs (and all Nob HQ with 6+ armor saves) 5+ armor save by default
Give Nobs 4+ armor saves for 2ppm

Solution 3: Reduced Point Costs
Burnas 12 ppm
Tankbusta's 12 ppm
Commandos 8ppm
Let Nobz take Power Claws for 15 ppm, Killsaws for 20 ppm

Problem: Chaos is Overpriced, Their Codex is almost as bad as orks
How Many Times I've Heard This: Ad Naseum

Solution 1: Reduce Point Costs
Reduce Plague Marines, Noise Marines, Thousand Sons and Warp Talons to 20 points
Reduce Helbrutes to 75 ppm

Solution 2: Minor Buffs to Rubric Marines, Berserkers, Noise Marines
Thousand Sons given ignores cover, no grenades, increase cost of sorcerer to 50 points
Increase cost of Berserkers to 20 ppm, add 1 to S.
Change Sonic Blasters to S5

Solution 3: Buff Terminators and Obliteraters
Change Terminators to T5
Give them 2 wounds
Let them each take option from heavy weapons
raise point cost to 40-50 points a model, depending on changes
Give Obliterators an extra wound
Give Obliterators T5

Problem: Tau are OP
How Many Times I've Heard This: A Metric Gross

Solution 1: Increased Point Costs
Increase cost of Riptides by 50 points to 230
Increase cost of firewarriors to 10 ppm
Increase cost of Cadre Fireblade to 80 points

Solution 2: Markerlight Nerfs
Put a cap on how many markerlights can be applied per enemy unit (2 or 3)
Give all markerlights the Split Fire rule

Solution 3: Nerfing Tau Formations
Optimized Stealth Formation requires a single marker light hit to get ignores cover, strikes rear armor facing and incresed ballistic skill

Problem: Tau Strike Teams have too low a BS
How Many Times I've heard this: 3 or more

Solution:
Increase BS of firewarriors by 1 when escorted by Fireblade Cadre

Problem: Flyrant lists are broken
How Many Times I've Heard This: 5 or more

Solution:
No longer allow Mucolid Spore Cluster to be taken as a troops choice

Problem: Eldar are extremely cheesy and OP

Solution 1: Nerfs
Warp Spiders can only move 1d6 on a warp jump
Reduce Wraithlord to T7 S7
Reduce Wraithknight to T7 S9 and 5W

Personal Preferences
Have Scouts take Hellfire rounds at either 5 points, instead of 8 (just an oddball number)
Give Broadsides S10 AP 1 TL Rail Guns back
Get rid of Varied Frequency on Blastmaster for Noise Marines, nobody ever uses it


FINALLY! That took a while to update. I will continue to update this post as I think of new ideas.

PS I know orks need a lot more fixing, these were just a start.
PPS Its okay if you disagree with me, but please don't be rude and call my suggestions stupid.

Why make tacs 12 men?

Bolters being ap4 seems extreme.

Chaplain nartheciums makes no sense. That's what apothecaries do.

Okay, so the question is why? How are these common sense changes?

Orks definitely need buffs, but what's the other stuff all about?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what a chaplain is. As is, only command squads and Red Scorpian Tac squads can take narcethiums, at least in the basic codex. Seems like they should see more widespread use. Alternatively, you could perhaps make a Apothecary a HQ choice.

Bolters are underpowered considering their fluff, and they are absolutely anemic on tabletop. Changing a squad to 12 men lets you means instead of 8 or 9 bolters a turn, you have 9 or 10. It also makes sense since 10 is an even metric and command staff and officers are considered seperate from line soldiers. Its basically kind of bizarre to have 8 soldiers and 2 officers.

Mucolid Spores let you take Flyrants as an HQ choice without having to take any real troops. Its kind of exploit.

A lot of people have been saying terminators need a buff, and that they are overcosted. I'm not sure I agree with them but these are sort of an aggregate of changes that have been suggested.

Centaurians are garbage, they die to plasma, S8 and gravspam and have no invul save, and nobody runs Dev Centaurians with a base loadout and all they ever do is load them with grav cannons.

A chaplain is a spiritual leader and keeps them loyal to the Emperor and talks to Marines about doubts.

Red Scorpions are obsessed with purity and are the exception to the rule. Nartheciums don't need to be used much in the actual battle. It's much safer to recover gene seed afterwards.

You have 9 soldiers and 1 officer. Very few weapons match the fluff. It's a case of choosing balance over fluff.

Well, priests and chaplains often double as healers during times of war. It think it would make sense for them to have narthecium. Also, they have fewer options than Captains with the same point costs and statline, so unless you are using forgeworld relics or running a gladius they are kind of useless.

Tac Squads are generally agreed upon to be one of the worse troop choices available, their firepower is anemic and they do little more than act as bullet sponges use to capture points. Bolters have rapid fire so they can't assault, and if you take a special and heavy weapons choice and trick out your sgt you could be firing as few as 7 bolter shots a turn, which is absolutely pitiful. Alternatively, maybe you could just give bolters assault 24" profile instead of AP4?

Most of these changes are just a personal preference, you're free to agree and disagree as you like.

rrll wrote:
Well, priests and chaplains often double as healers during times of war. It think it would make sense for them to have narthecium. Also, they have fewer options than Captains with the same point costs and statline, so unless you are using forgeworld relics or running a gladius they are kind of useless.

Tac Squads are generally agreed upon to be one of the worse troop choices available, their firepower is anemic and they do little more than act as bullet sponges use to capture points. Bolters have rapid fire so they can't assault, and if you take a special and heavy weapons choice and trick out your sgt you could be firing as few as 7 bolter shots a turn, which is absolutely pitiful. Alternatively, maybe you could just give bolters assault 24" profile instead of AP4?

Most of these changes are just a personal preference, you're free to agree and disagree as you like.

But they don't in the Space Marines. Chaplains give a squad Zealot that's pretty useful.

They also have pistols if you want to charge. That's because people here compare them to scatterbikes which is ridiculous. AP4 is too far and assault either makes them worse or is unfair depending on how many shots.

rrll wrote:
Here are some common sense changes I think should be applied across the board:

Marines

Change Tac Marine Squads to 12 men, 6 minimum
There's a fluff reason why they're 10-man squads, which is the whole organisation of the Codex Astartes. So for this to be a change, I feel big changes to the fluff would also be required.

Change Drop Pods, Rhinos, (as well as chaos drop pods and rhinos) to carry 12 men
Change Razorbacks to carry 7 men
I assume these areboth derived from the increase in size of Tactical Squads, which I don't think should happen (therefore making these changes redundant). If these changes were to be implemented, you should also consider the Transport Capacity of other vehicles.

Change Bolters and Heavy Bolters to AP 4
Heavy Bolters are already AP4 and Bolters should not have the same AP (by virtue of their name, they're a 'lighter' weapon).

Let the Chaplain take a Narthecium
Already been addressed. It's essentially not their role.

Change Terminators to T5, give them 2 wounds, let them each take option from heavy weapons (excluding grav cannons), raise point cost to 40 points a model.
I actually had this conversation with a friend of mine with regards to just the T5 and W2 thing. Basically we agree that with only the increase to 2 Wounds, each Terminator was worth at least 40 points per model (absolute bare minimum with a better minimum being 45 - 50 points). With the added Toughness and extra Heavy Weapons as well, 40 Points is definitely too low.

Give Assault and Devestator Centurians 4+ invul saves.
Not sure if they have it already, but if they don't: I agree with this. (At least give them a 5+ Invulnerable Save).

Give Devastator Centuarians take Assault Cannons at as default weapons.
This might make sense, but also might be a bit much.

Give Assault Centuarians take a TL Flamestorm Cannon as defualt weapons
As above, this might make sense, but also might be a bit much.

Raise all Centaurians Point Costs to 60
Don't know enough about them to comment on this points change.

Orks
Unnerf Nobs, bring back squads painboy and cybork body options
Unnerf TankHammers, make them S 10 again
Unnerf Mob Rule, just put it back the way it was
Up Base Strength to 4 (they are orks for gorks sake!)
Make ard boys cost 3 points (Same price as IG vet squads)
As much as I agree with these changes (wholeheartedly or in part), this is a drop in the ocean of things that need to be done for Orks. A nice start, but it's only a start

Tyranids
No longer allow Mucolid Spore Cluster to be taken as a troops choice

Thats all i can think of for now, but I'll probably think of more latter.

Also, to prove I'm not just a BUFF EVERYTHING power gamer, give me some suggestions of OP stuff after I read over the Tau and Eldar Codex, i'll post some nerf suggestions.
I can't comment on Tyranids because I know nothing about their codex.

My comments are in red.

>AP4 is too far and assault either makes them worse or is unfair depending on how many shots.

I disagree. A bolter should be able to penetrate Stormtrooper Carapace Armor. There is a general agreement that Low S, High AP weapons are bad but I think that is just protectionism, people generally don't want to see their expensive models with high armor saves brought low by armor piercing weapons. I personally think they are underrepresented, to the point where many "ignores cover" blast templates are effectively useless because they are AP 5.

>Heavy Bolters are already AP4

I forgot about this. I think maybe heavy bolters should be S 6 then, since nobody ever seems to take them. Also, think scouts should be able to take hellfire rounds for 5 points.

Here are some more suggestions:

Chaos

All basic infantry (troops, berserkers, plague marines, noise marines, thousand sons, chosen, raptors, warp talens, possessed) increased to a minimum of 6 total models instead of 5. (including space marine command squads and possibly a few others i forgot to mention)
Chaos Land Raiders increased transport capacity to 12 models, (Basic SM Land Raider as well)
Thousand Sons given ignores cover, no grenades, increase cost of sorcerer to 50 points
Reduce Plague Marines, Noise Marines, Thousand Sons and Warp Talons to 20 points
Increase cost of Berserkers to 20 ppm, add 1 to S.

Tau
Increase cost of Riptides by 50 points to 230
Increase cost of Cadre Fireblade to 80 points
Change Broadsides back to TL S10 AP 1 Rail Guns, change ppm to 70
Increase BS of firewarriors by 1 when escorted by Fireblade Cadre
Increase cost of firewarriors to 10 ppm
Give all markerlights the Split Fire rule
Put a cap on how many markerlights can be applied per enemy unit (2 or 3)
Change Burst Cannons to Heavy 3

Space Marine
Change cost of Missile Launchers to 10 points, and extra 5 for flakk
Change Heavy Bolters to S6 to encourage people to take them and have them not do fuckall
Have Scouts take Hellfire rounds at either 5 points, instead of 8 (just an oddball number)

I'm not seeing how these are commen sense nor practical.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
I'm not seeing how these are commen sense nor practical.

Your free to disagree, but this is generally what I consider to be the consensus among more experienced players who look at the game objectively and don't play favorites. (With a few personal interpetations and ideas thrown in for flaire)

Have you ever faced a Tau list with 3-4 Fireblades?

rrll wrote:
>AP4 is too far and assault either makes them worse or is unfair depending on how many shots.

I disagree. A bolter should be able to penetrate Stormtrooper Carapace Armor.

Nah, unless hellguns can suddendly penetrate Terminator and Artificer armor because reasons (they should not, for what its worth) and if the basic gun of the most played army/armies can now penetrate any 4+ saves, they should become free upgrades or somethings, that's ridiculous.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Have you ever faced a Tau list with 3-4 Fireblades?

Yeah, they are bitch. Pulse Rifle Spam is bloody murder.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bobthehero wrote:

rrll wrote:
>AP4 is too far and assault either makes them worse or is unfair depending on how many shots.

I disagree. A bolter should be able to penetrate Stormtrooper Carapace Armor.

Nah, unless hellguns can suddendly penetrate Terminator and Artificer armor because reasons (they should not, for what its worth) and if the basic gun of the most played army/armies can now penetrate any 4+ saves, they should become free upgrades or somethings, that's ridiculous.

Imperial Guard doesn't really need the buff, they are already one of the better armies. Besides, it'll give you a reason to use those infantry platoons instead of spamming veterans or scions.

@rrl:

I'm not sure you understand what the purpose of changing the rules are. You seem to have a lot of changes split up into small groups for a lot of different armies, with a number of changes that do not address a problem, positively affect the game, or fix the rules with regards to the fluff (or any other reason that I may have missed).

For example:
-- The 12-Man Tactical Squads does not fix a problem and goes against the fluff.
-- Chaplains are not Apothecaries.
-- Orks will need a lot more fixes than that to become balanced and competitive again.

Might I suggest picking one of the armies you're trying to fix and stick to that train of though for this thread? That will make it easier for people to give feedback because we're only talking about one army, and it will also allow the development enough fixes to balance the army in question (assuming that's your goal).

I see absolutely no point in making a list of a half-a-dozen changes to Orks (which as good as they are, don't make a dent in the grand scheme) when their entire army needs to be balanced.

rrll wrote:
>AP4 is too far and assault either makes them worse or is unfair depending on how many shots.

I disagree. A bolter should be able to penetrate Stormtrooper Carapace Armor. There is a general agreement that Low S, High AP weapons are bad but I think that is just protectionism, people generally don't want to see their expensive models with high armor saves brought low by armor piercing weapons. I personally think they are underrepresented, to the point where many "ignores cover" blast templates are effectively useless because they are AP 5.

>Heavy Bolters are already AP4

I forgot about this. I think maybe heavy bolters should be S 6 then, since nobody ever seems to take them. Also, think scouts should be able to take hellfire rounds for 5 points.

1. Again balance over fluff. AP4 ignores most of the armour in the game is way too much for a basic troop weapon.
2. Why? There's nothing wrong with it being S5. It's a midpoint between Assault Cannons and Bolters.

These suggestions seem somewhat... cobbled together to me.

 IllumiNini wrote:
@rrl:

I'm not sure you understand what the purpose of changing the rules are. You seem to have a lot of changes split up into small groups for a lot of different armies, with a number of changes that do not address a problem, positively affect the game, or fix the rules with regards to the fluff (or any other reason that I may have missed).

For example:
-- The 12-Man Tactical Squads does not fix a problem and goes against the fluff.
-- Chaplains are not Apothecaries.
-- Orks will need a lot more fixes than that to become balanced and competitive again.

Might I suggest picking one of the armies you're trying to fix and stick to that train of though for this thread? That will make it easier for people to give feedback because we're only talking about one army, and it will also allow the development enough fixes to balance the army in question (assuming that's your goal).

I see absolutely no point in making a list of a half-a-dozen changes to Orks (which as good as they are, don't make a dent in the grand scheme) when their entire army needs to be balanced.

There is no need to be rude.

My general point is that its not just one army that needs fixing, its the entire meta. Addressing it one army at a time won't fix the problem and encourages favoritism. I also believe that lots of small changes will trump a few large ones in terms of restoring game balance. (I might prefer to simply roll up all my changes into the top list instead of spreading them out all over the thread)

My reasoning for the 12 man squads was explained, but if it goes against the fluff then maybe it could be a modern change that has happened only recently, or adopted only by second foundings, or any number of in fluff reasons to support it. (You don't have to retcon, all you have to do is maintain continuity.)

Chaplains may not be apothecaries, but that doesn't mean that they couldn't be. Like i said, priests and chaplains would often perform the duties of doctors during a war when people were short on medical staff. This may not fit the fluff, but i also provided an alternative, taking an apothecary as an HQ choice. Its okay if you don't care for these suggestions, but I think they are sensible.

At the end of the day you're changing fluff but not for a very good reason. There's no way the Imperium will change a system that's worked well for the last 10'000 years.

Addressing them all at once just makes things get thrown all around and look like a mess.

I'm getting the sense that people are not liking the AP4 bolters, so I won't insist on it, and instead include it in my personal preferences. Also, I forgot that reaper AC's were S6 AP 4, so changing bolters to S6 AP 4 would be horrendous.

My reasoning was simply that most people tend to agree that bolters are garbage but there is no general consensus as to how to fix them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:
At the end of the day you're changing fluff but not for a very good reason. There's no way the Imperium will change a system that's worked well for the last 10'000 years.

Addressing them all at once just makes things get thrown all around and look like a mess.

Its not working. Thats why the imperium is getting their asses kicked.

rrll wrote:
There is no need to be rude.

I don't see how I was being rude, but if I caused offense, I apologise.

rrll wrote:
My general point is that its not just one army that needs fixing, its the entire meta. Addressing it one army at a time won't fix the problem and encourages favoritism. I also believe that lots of small changes will trump a few large ones in terms of restoring game balance. (I might prefer to simply roll up all my changes into the top list instead of spreading them out all over the thread).

For one person trying to fix the game, I think that tackling one codex at a time is the only way to tackle this. I think the best way to tackle this is to weed out all the issues with a codex, then give everything an appropriate stat-line and set of rules that are appropriate and in keeping with the fluff, and then rinse and repeat with every codex. Then balancing can happen. What you're trying to do is balance a game with minor changes (a lot of which don't actually fix or even address any issue) on the basis of a bunch of codeces that are in and of themselves broken. I think your system can't work.

rrll wrote:
My reasoning for the 12 man squads was explained, but if it goes against the fluff then maybe it could be a modern change that has happened only recently, or adopted only by second foundings, or any number of in fluff reasons to support it. (You don't have to retcon, all you have to do is maintain continuity.)

Again, that would still go against the fluff. Maybe for one or two specific Chapters where they are not codex-compliant, but it still makes no sense as a generic rule.

rrll wrote:
Chaplains may not be apothecaries, but that doesn't mean that they couldn't be. Like i said, priests and chaplains would often perform the duties of doctors during a war when people were short on medical staff. This may not fit the fluff, but i also provided an alternative, taking an apothecary as an HQ choice. Its okay if you don't care for these suggestions, but I think they are sensible.

If you're trying to use real-world examples to justify this (which is what it reads like to me), then don't. A lot of things in the real world don't really apply to the 40K universe, so be very careful about using such logic.


You also said this:

rrll wrote:
Most of these changes are just a personal preference, you're free to agree and disagree as you like.

This is in direct contradiction to your implied intent to balance the game and also (at least partially) contradicts this statement you made at the start of the original post:

Here are some common sense changes I think should be applied across the board.

Okay, I updated my list of changes, if I see any others that I agree with I will add them.

I don't think Centurions need changing at all. Even if they did a 4++ isn't good. You may as well remove Terminators at the same time. Them not having invuls is a good thing. I'm not a fan of the tactical changes but I've already explained why. Same with narthecium stuff.


Why give Chaos squads a minimum of 6?

rrll wrote:
(I'm keeping these here until I hear another suggestion I can agree with, even if they are unpopular)

Probably not the best approach to take, but OK.

rrll wrote:
Problem: Bolters are weak/Space Marine Tac Squads are one of the worse troop choices in the game

Solution 1: Change Bolter Statline
Change Heavy Bolters to Heavy 5
Change Bolters AP 4

A better solution may be to change the type of weapon that a Bolter is. For example, it might be a better "Fix" to make Bolterguns Salvo 1/2 or Assault 2 or something like that.

Heavy 5 is too much. Heavy Bolters may benefit better from being something like Salvo 2/4.

rrll wrote:
Solution 2: Increase size of Tac Squads
Raise Tac, Scout, Vanguard, Sternguard, and Command Squads to 12, min 6 (Add 2nd special weapon at 12)
Change Crusader squads to min 6 intiates, max 12, with up to 12 neophytes
Change Drop Pods, Rhinos, and Basic Land Raiders to carry 12 men
Change Razorbacks to carry 7 men, Land Speeder Storms to 6 men
Change all Chaos equivelents accordingly.

I'll repeat: These new min and max numbers for squads would only make sense for a select few Chapters that are not codex-compliant. The Transport Capacity suffers from the same problem. Also, assuming that Basic Land Raiders get a buff to Transport Capacity, why don't the other types? And what all the other vehicles that have a transport capacity?

I disagree with the fact that a numbers boost to squads is the answer, with a buff to weapons being more ideal. And the Transport Capacity thing is only a byproduct of this numbers change and does not address any issue.

rrll wrote:
Solution 3: Narthecium
Let Chaplains take Narthecium OR
Let Apothecaries be an HQ choice

Should Chaplains be able to take Narthecium? No. I can, however, get behind Apothecaries being an independent character (even if they aren't a HQ Choice).

rrll wrote:
Change Terminators to T5
Give them 2 wounds
Let them each take option from heavy weapons (excluding grav cannons)
raise point cost to 40-50 points a model, depending on changes

With Toughness 5 and 2 Wounds, a minimum of 55 Points/Model with a solid price of 60 Points/Model seems a lot more fair. Think of comparable units that have T5 and W2 with access to Power Weapons (or equivalent) by default and you should arrive at these numbers.

rrll wrote:
Problem: Centaurians are a huge point sink and do not have invul saves
How many times I've heard this: 3 or more times

Solutions:
Raise Toughness to 5
Give Assault and Devestator Centurians 4+ invul saves
Give Devastator Centuarians take Assault Cannons at as default weapons
Give Assault Centuarians take a TL Flamestorm Cannon as defualt weapons
Raise all Centaurians Point Costs to 60-70, depending on changes

Centurions are already T5. A 4+ Invulnerable is a bit too much (consider the fact that Chaplains and Captains get a 4+ Invulnerable Save by default). Also, considering that Centurions are 55 pts/model by default as they are in the C:SM, a minimum of 70 - 80 Points is in order with all the other changes for them that you're proposing.

rrll wrote:
Problem: Flakk Missiles are overcosted and Missile Launchers are too expensive

Solutions:
Change cost of Missile Launchers to 10 points, and extra 5 for flakk

This is a good change.


I can't and/or won't comment on the rest since it's either incomplete or something I know little about.

rrll wrote:
PPS Its okay if you disagree with me, but please don't be rude and call my suggestions stupid.

That is in the Forum Rules (i.e. Rule #1)

pm713 wrote:
I don't think Centurions need changing at all. Even if they did a 4++ isn't good. You may as well remove Terminators at the same time. Them not having invuls is a good thing. I'm not a fan of the tactical changes but I've already explained why. Same with narthecium stuff.


Why give Chaos squads a minimum of 6?

Lemme guess, you get a lot of grav spam in your meta?

For being what essentially amounts to a 90 point model (cause lets face it, nobody loads them with grav cannons or runs them flat) they are incredibly fragile, dying to grav, plasma, and S8+. 4+ might be a bit much, but 5+ definitely.

As to chaos, its pretty much just because if space marines get the buff, chaos should too. (I'm not sure I understand what people mean by "in-fluff" reasons why they have 10 units to a squad, since black templars have as many 20. Unless there is some more specific reason other than "Cause the codex says so" I don't really know why people are insisting upon 10 other than their worship of Robert Girlyman and his temple of orthodoxy.)

rrll wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I don't think Centurions need changing at all. Even if they did a 4++ isn't good. You may as well remove Terminators at the same time. Them not having invuls is a good thing. I'm not a fan of the tactical changes but I've already explained why. Same with narthecium stuff.


Why give Chaos squads a minimum of 6?

Lemme guess, you get a lot of grav spam in your meta?

For being what essentially amounts to a 90 point model (cause lets face it, nobody loads them with grav cannons or runs them flat) they are incredibly fragile, dying to grav, plasma, and S8+. 4+ might be a bit much, but 5+ definitely.

As to chaos, its pretty much just because if space marines get the buff, chaos should too. (I'm not sure I understand what people mean by "in-fluff" reasons why they have 10 units to a squad, since black templars have as many 20. Unless there is some more specific reason other than "Cause the codex says so" I don't really know why people are insisting upon 10 other than their worship of Robert Girlyman and his temple of orthodoxy.)

None of that is bad. Things need a counter and for Centurions its AP2. Hence no invuls.

The game is built on the fluff. If it's not in fluff it's not in game. Otherwise you end up with stupid units that shouldn't exist.

rrll wrote:
I'm not sure I understand what people mean by "in-fluff" reasons why they have 10 units to a squad, since black templars have as many 20. Unless there is some more specific reason other than "Cause the codex says so" I don't really know why people are insisting upon 10 other than their worship of Robert Girlyman and his temple of orthodoxy.

Well for starters, the Black Templars are not really codex-compliant, so using them to justify the removal of the 10-man limit is not the best idea. Also, in the C:SM (and on 40K wikis), the Codex Adeptus Astartes separates the Chapter of 1,000 Astartes into 10 Companies, all of which have 10 Squads. That's an oversimplification, but it outlines the fact that a Chapter is separated into 10 Companies of 100 Astartes each, which are further separated into 10 Squads. By this maths, that's 10 Astartes per squad. That's where that 10 comes from and why 12 makes no sense in terms of the fluff unless you have a Chapter that is not codex-compliant or you re-write the fluff.

A better solution may be to change the type of weapon that a Bolter is. For example, it might be a better "Fix" to make Bolterguns Salvo 1/2 or Assault 2 or something like that.

Heavy 5 is too much. Heavy Bolters may benefit better from being something like Salvo 2/4.

Not bad suggestions. I had something similiar with my idea to change bolters to assault 2. (but then what good would storm bolters be?) I'll add it to the pile.

These new min and max numbers for squads would only make sense for a select few Chapters that are not codex-compliant. The Transport Capacity suffers from the same problem. Also, assuming that Basic Land Raiders get a buff to Transport Capacity, why don't the other types? And what all the other vehicles that have a transport capacity?

Is there something I'm missing from the fluff? Is there a reason besides "Roberta Girlyman said so". Not really a fan of the ultrasmurfs, tbh.

Most of the terminator point costs are basically nitpicking, we agree on the same general price range even if yours tend to be a little higher.

rrll wrote:
Is there something I'm missing from the fluff? Is there a reason besides "Roberta Girlyman said so". Not really a fan of the ultrasmurfs, tbh.

Most of the terminator point costs are basically nitpicking, we agree on the same general price range even if yours tend to be a little higher.

Not being a fan of the Ultramarines is no reason to ignore the fluff.

As for the points issue, you should be nitpicking. You're trying to balance the game, which cannot be done by denying specificity to the changes you make.

Chapters follow the Codex. If they don't follow the Codex they start getting trouble. That's it.

 IllumiNini wrote:

rrll wrote:
I'm not sure I understand what people mean by "in-fluff" reasons why they have 10 units to a squad, since black templars have as many 20. Unless there is some more specific reason other than "Cause the codex says so" I don't really know why people are insisting upon 10 other than their worship of Robert Girlyman and his temple of orthodoxy.

Well for starters, the Black Templars are not really codex-compliant, so using them to justify the removal of the 10-man limit is not the best idea. Also, in the C:SM (and on 40K wikis), the Codex Adeptus Astartes separates the Chapter of 1,000 Astartes into 10 Companies, all of which have 10 Squads. That's an oversimplification, but it outlines the fact that a Chapter is separated into 10 Companies of 100 Astartes each, which are further separated into 10 Squads. By this maths, that's 10 Astartes per squad. That's where that 10 comes from and why 12 makes no sense in terms of the fluff unless you have a Chapter that is not codex-compliant or you re-write the fluff.

Oh.

Well I've always considered that part of the fluff to be (trying to think of a nice way of putting it) er... not good. a Chapter should have 10,000, not 1000, probably more. (But putting a cap on the number of super soldiers is not a bad idea)

Really the only thing you would need to do is exclude officer corps from the count and limit the number of officers based on the number of troops. Its a tiny technicality that I don't think really amounts to much.