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Okay so... I am totally confused on the newish fluff for the Alpha Legion. Back in my day (you durned kids!) their thing was that since they were the final legion created, they strived that much harder to prove themselves to the others. Alpharius looked up to his elder brother, Horus, and that was why the Alpha Legion joined the Heresy. They were very insidious and would go around as basically Space Terrorists, creating cults and leaving uncertainty in the Imperium on worlds, basically instigating rebellions and then laughing from the shadows.

Now, I'm confused about this whole "Are they good or evil" thing going on. So if I understand it, they had twin primarchs, one was killed (but which?), and this sort of weird "I am Spartacus" thing going on. But if they are good guys, what is their motive? Undo Chaos from within? Kill the Emperor to create the Star Child (if that's still a thing). I mean, they still fight the Imperium right? They still go to planets and kill Imperial citizens (because reasons)?

I had the brief flash of an idea that I could use Loyal tactics or Chaos tactics, have marines that can be archaic but not "moar spikes" (likely use Betrayal at Calth for that MkIV look) and have a way to do what I always wanted: Have a marine army that I didn't feel like I was breaking the lore to fight other Imperium forces, but also be able to face any other army in the game and have it be according to plan. But their fluff doesn't sit well with me, it seems really vague and contrived, maybe I'm missing something or maybe I'm just a curmudgeon who remembers the old fluff.

Am I just missing something about them?

Hail Hydra

WayneTheGame wrote:
Okay so... I am totally confused on the newish fluff for the Alpha Legion. Back in my day (you durned kids!) their thing was that since they were the final legion created, they strived that much harder to prove themselves to the others. Alpharius looked up to his elder brother, Horus, and that was why the Alpha Legion joined the Heresy. They were very insidious and would go around as basically Space Terrorists, creating cults and leaving uncertainty in the Imperium on worlds, basically instigating rebellions and then laughing from the shadows.

Now, I'm confused about this whole "Are they good or evil" thing going on. So if I understand it, they had twin primarchs, one was killed (but which?), and this sort of weird "I am Spartacus" thing going on. But if they are good guys, what is their motive? Undo Chaos from within? Kill the Emperor to create the Star Child (if that's still a thing). I mean, they still fight the Imperium right? They still go to planets and kill Imperial citizens (because reasons)?

In my opinion, they're behaving similar to Cypher did during the 13th Black Crusade.

The damage they do in the short term? It's offset by the long term benefits. Worlds where Cypher established cults or started uprisings ended up becoming more heavily entrenched in the Imperium's dogma and doctrines after the cults and uprisings were put down.

There is no alpha legion within the imperium.. please report to the nearest commissar for reeducation, if you are a commissar please report to your bolt pistol.

Joking aside though basically they are 40k's version of the Marvel universe's Hydra. Some have turned to chaos either in direct service or penetrating their chapters and organizations. They are known to undergo surgery to look like other marines or initiates and then assassinate and replace said initiate. So little is known about how deep they have infiltrated that some companies could have whole command structures of Alpha legion or it could just be a few intelligence agents there. On the table much like cypher they could be allied to marines or chaos marines and it would make sense. I actually painted my marines in different chapters and mix/match armor within squads representing alpha legion calling in its forces to overcome an enemy.

The Alpha Legion you're referring to are the actual Legion. Post-Heresy, we don't have much to go off of other than moustache twirling villainy.

There's a few things to consider.

The first is that the Alpha Legion of 30k operate under a dual nature. Part of the legion focuses on infiltration, sabotage, espionage, and other clandestine operations, usually with the assistance of humans agents as well. This is the half that calls themselves Alpharius gets most of the attention in the Horus Heresy novels.

The other part of the legion wants it known far and wide that they are the Alpha Legion and the operations they are undertaking are being done by the Alpha Legion. They paint themselves in bright colors, using lots of heraldry, titles, and honors to identify their champions and commanders, all of which can be changed at a moment's notice once they feel the enemy has gathered enough false intelligence on them. They can operate either as big impressive distractions for the first half, or as contingencies when traditional force becomes the necessary tool. This is the half that gets most of the attention in the Forge World write ups.

It is this second half that history remembers as the ones always trying to prove themselves. But it is the dual nature of the legion that gives it its true personality, all the way up to its primarchs.

As for what the original plan to stop chaos was, it requires knowing a few other things. Should Horus be completely successful, Lorgar would be free to do what he has always wished to do, and has stated as such in Betrayer, merge the entirety of humanity with chaos in a symbiotic relationship. Essentially turn every single human into the Gal Vorbak, permanently freeing chaos from its tether to the warp and granting humanity endless power.

However, according to the Cabal's prophecies, should this come to pass, Horus will see what has become of humanity and regret his actions, destroying all of humanity, and in so doing, destroy chaos. Normally, chaos could just retreat to the warp like when a daemon in realspace is killed. But by having all of chaos bound to humanity, there would be nowhere to run and so they would die with humanity, freeing the rest of the galaxy.

At least that's the plan.

Plenty of individuals doubt this plan, one of the two twin primarchs being one of them (although not 100% sure which one).

At some point, the left hand stopped talking to the right hand and vice versa and orders within the legions started counteracting one another. Missions were undertaken against their own facilities, assistance to seemingly enemy forces were provided, it's extremely unclear at the moment, although more is expected to be revealed in the upcoming books.

The current story involves the Alpha Legion assisting the independent entities that existed in the Sol system, around Jupiter and Saturn, in the asteroid belt, and on plenty of other satellites, to rebel against the Imperium and the Imperial Fists heading out to stop them.

I apologize I should clarify I'm talking about the 40k version, not the 30k one. I recall back in the 2nd edition Chaos Codex, the fluff was what I said above, that the AL were always striving to prove themselves to their brothers to show that despite being the last created they weren't the last in skill, and Horus exploited that to get them to turn traitor. That fluff has clearly changed, which is why I am so confused as to how they are now.

Even more confusing is that apparently it's possible that it wasn't even a Primarch who got killed just some guy.

Basically they're like Space Wolves. Their theme (subversion and tricks or some wolfy stuff) has been taken and driven up to 1 million. So now they're insanely convoluted to the point where I've stopped trying to keep track.

WayneTheGame wrote:
I apologize I should clarify I'm talking about the 40k version, not the 30k one. I recall back in the 2nd edition Chaos Codex, the fluff was what I said above, that the AL were always striving to prove themselves to their brothers to show that despite being the last created they weren't the last in skill, and Horus exploited that to get them to turn traitor. That fluff has clearly changed, which is why I am so confused as to how they are now.

In that case, nothing has changed about them in 40k. Everything that you're describing is how they acted in 30k. They're just as mysterious and disjointed as any other chaos warband. There may be some underlying command structure in place but it's struggling against itself just as much as it struggles with any outside force, just like most chaos warbands.

The Alpha Legion is written to be unknowable. There are not any solid, known facts about the Alpha Legion. They may have 2 Primarchs, or they may not have. No one knows. They may be fighting against Chaos, or they may have joined it. Alpharius may be dead, or he may still be alive. Maybe both are true and Alpharius is a title rather than an individual. No one knows. The Alpha Legion may have joined the Heresy to proof their superiority, out of respect for Horus, out of a desire to save the universe or simply out of spite. No one knows. The Alpha Legion may no longer exist, having fallen apart or been destroyed, or maybe that was all a deception. Maybe the Alpha Legion was indeed destroyed multiple times as the Imperium claims, but a new group takes up the mantle every time, the AL having transcended from being an organisation into an ideology. Or maybe the legion has been basically unchanged since the Heresy, still working in the shadows to whatever plans they may have. No one knows.

The origins, present status and future goals of the Alpha Legion are as always completely unknown, so I don't think anything has changed in that regard. If anything, there are only more possible theories, deepening the mystery. The HH books from FW really make it clear that there is no one in the Imperium who really knows anything solid about the Alpha Legion, and that probably even the Alpha Legion's leaders don't know much about their own legion.
Hydra Dominatus!

That is both interesting and confusing :-) I mean I like the idea of them being internet trolls which is basically what they are. I like the idea of being able to use regular Space Marine rules and passing them off as not the alpha Legion at all but a loyalist chapter who just happens to look like that or going full-on yes haha we are the alpha Legion we tricked you are you mad brother? It is very interesting to say the least

They've had an identity change since Dan Abnett's Legion ran roughshod over their previous fluff. Now, Omegon and Alpharius was apparently something the BL had planned since the early 90's - Abnett stated this in an interview - which makes sense and isn't too much of a leap.

The Alpha Legion had precious little fluff prior to Legion - there was essentially just an Index Astartes article. However, this covered very little in 30k, the main things being Roboute Guilliman supposedly killing Alpharius. However, as the whole article was supposedly based on the word of a Traitor Inquisitor and the Ultramarines have no records of Eskrador ever happening, it further shadowed what happened. The other information we get was they turned due to pride and being slighted by the Ultramarines and wanted to outdo them, and thirdly that they disappeared on the Eastern Fringe, but small bands resurfaced to wage a brutal guerrilla war against the Imperium of Man.

Legion dealt really poorly with the actual motivation - the whole debacle lasts a mere two painful pages before Alpharius turns. The lack of a designated Alpha Legion author doesn't help either - Dan Abnett wrote Legion, Rob Sanders wrote Serpent Beneath and Sedition's Gate (first which is bloody brilliant), Graham McNeill wrote Seventh Serpent (a failed attempt at one-upmanship of Sanders's Serpent Beneath), and Gav Thorpe wrote Deliverance Lost. The issue is Alpharius-Omegon changes based on the author and suffers from continuity issues. The idea itself isn't bad; it's the execution that makes it collapse. If they had written it as a mix, with Alpharius easily being swayed by the Cabal because he wants to believe it because he hates Guilliman and wants to test his Alpha Legionnaires against the ultimate foe, it would be way more palatable.

 ChazSexington wrote:
the Ultramarines have no records of Eskrador ever happening, it further shadowed what happened.

This wasn't said. What was said was that the Ultramarines disputed something about it. Considering the Inquisitor reported that the Ultramarines were forced to withdraw it's unsurprising that they disagreed with what was said..

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:
the Ultramarines have no records of Eskrador ever happening, it further shadowed what happened.

This wasn't said. What was said was that the Ultramarines disputed something about it. Considering the Inquisitor reported that the Ultramarines were forced to withdraw it's unsurprising that they disagreed with what was said..

Quote from the IE article

The following account appears to be the personal log of a member of the Ultramarines strike force, probably a sergeant. It is included in Inquisitor Kravin's diatribe 'Lessons of Strife', though other Inquisitors and representatives of the Ultramarines themselves have questioned its validity.

Theyre like the scooby doo villians of the piece. Haha it was me all along. No it wasnt, Its me.
Theyre almost on Ultramarine levels of spanking themselves.

 Kanluwen wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
Okay so... I am totally confused on the newish fluff for the Alpha Legion. Back in my day (you durned kids!) their thing was that since they were the final legion created, they strived that much harder to prove themselves to the others. Alpharius looked up to his elder brother, Horus, and that was why the Alpha Legion joined the Heresy. They were very insidious and would go around as basically Space Terrorists, creating cults and leaving uncertainty in the Imperium on worlds, basically instigating rebellions and then laughing from the shadows.

Now, I'm confused about this whole "Are they good or evil" thing going on. So if I understand it, they had twin primarchs, one was killed (but which?), and this sort of weird "I am Spartacus" thing going on. But if they are good guys, what is their motive? Undo Chaos from within? Kill the Emperor to create the Star Child (if that's still a thing). I mean, they still fight the Imperium right? They still go to planets and kill Imperial citizens (because reasons)?

In my opinion, they're behaving similar to Cypher did during the 13th Black Crusade.

The damage they do in the short term? It's offset by the long term benefits. Worlds where Cypher established cults or started uprisings ended up becoming more heavily entrenched in the Imperium's dogma and doctrines after the cults and uprisings were put down.

That's the version I'm going with too...

...until proven otherwise.

And maybe not even then.

The first nine rules of the Alpha Legion are:

I - You do not talk about the Alpha Legion
II - You do not talk about the Alpha Legion
III - You do not talk about the Alpha Legion
IV - You do not talk about the Alpha Legion
V - You do not talk about the Alpha Legion
VI - You do not talk about the Alpha Legion
VII - You do not talk about the Alpha Legion
VIII - You do not talk about the Alpha Legion
IX - You do not talk about the Alpha Legion

One thing that I don't think has been mentioned yet is that the Alpha legion requires its members to test themselves as a unit, not as individuals. This probably plays a role in their mentality.
Another is that where possible they avoid specializing their marines, disdaining Assault/Devastator units and just picking some marines to grab the fancy gear when they need it. I like this touch, it makes them more fluid and harder to pin down in the long run, which is how the 20th legion roles.

Another thing, insurgents. I'm taking care NOT to call them cultists, because the Alpha legion actually trains their humans and makes use of them beyond suicide charges (that would be the Word Bearers/Iron Warriors). Sadly, there are no ways to show this on the tabletop, bar taking guard allies.

However, they have their flaws. Several people have mentioned their problems with the Ultramarines, particularly between Primarchs. The ultramarines didn't like the AL's style not because it was dishonorable or something like that, but because the amount of chaos and nonsense used interfered with the Emperors efforts to unify the Galaxy. If you send a roman legion to take a town, and you send a bunch or terrorists to take another one, the one the legionaries take is going to be taken a lot quicker and cleaner, and thus can be put to use sooner.

You might want to read up on John Grammaticus to read the real interesting stuff about the legion [WARNING] reading about John Grammaticus will result in a ton of spoilers.

40k alpha legion are basically space terrorists (as stated above). They tend not to travel around in warbands like other chaos marines but individually or in small groups, springing up cults and uprisings. It's not known which God(s) they worship as they never say. Alpharius and Omegon were identical and Alpharius had many of his space marines undergo surgery to look exactly like him and this also made them primarch-huge and they could consume a small amount of the primarchs blood, giving them a massive boost in physical ability. Because of this its not known if Alpharius, Omegon or just a regular Alpha Legion marine was killed by Guilliman.

Cptn_Cronssant wrote:
40k alpha legion are basically space terrorists (as stated above). They tend not to travel around in warbands like other chaos marines but individually or in small groups, springing up cults and uprisings. It's not known which God(s) they worship as they never say. Alpharius and Omegon were identical and Alpharius had many of his space marines undergo surgery to look exactly like him and this also made them primarch-huge and they could consume a small amount of the primarchs blood, giving them a massive boost in physical ability. Because of this its not known if Alpharius, Omegon or just a regular Alpha Legion marine was killed by Guilliman.

You've got some wrong impressions.

As far as gods, they used to be Chaos Undivided, but Tzeentch tattoos have been mentioned in the fluff and FFG's Tome of Fate put them in the Tzeentch box.

The plastic surgery did not make them primarch-sized. Alpha Legionnaires are taller than other Space Marines, but their primarchs are among the smallest.

Only Sheed Ranko is known to have drunk the primarchs' blood, which he had to do to be able to make Alpha Legionnaires believe he was Alpharius-Omegon due to his increased battle prowess. He was also the head of their elite terminators, the Lernaean Hydras, and not just anyone.

 ChazSexington wrote:

Cptn_Cronssant wrote:
40k alpha legion are basically space terrorists (as stated above). They tend not to travel around in warbands like other chaos marines but individually or in small groups, springing up cults and uprisings. It's not known which God(s) they worship as they never say. Alpharius and Omegon were identical and Alpharius had many of his space marines undergo surgery to look exactly like him and this also made them primarch-huge and they could consume a small amount of the primarchs blood, giving them a massive boost in physical ability. Because of this its not known if Alpharius, Omegon or just a regular Alpha Legion marine was killed by Guilliman.

You've got some wrong impressions.

As far as gods, they used to be Chaos Undivided, but Tzeentch tattoos have been mentioned in the fluff and FFG's Tome of Fate put them in the Tzeentch box.

The plastic surgery did not make them primarch-sized. Alpha Legionnaires are taller than other Space Marines, but their primarchs are among the smallest.

Only Sheed Ranko is known to have drunk the primarchs' blood, which he had to do to be able to make Alpha Legionnaires believe he was Alpharius-Omegon due to his increased battle prowess. He was also the head of their elite terminators, the Lernaean Hydras, and not just anyone.

Ah right. I never really looked into them in depth - nor have I ever read a HH novel with them in it so I just posted what I knew.

Cptn_Cronssant wrote:
40k alpha legion are basically space terrorists (as stated above). They tend not to travel around in warbands like other chaos marines but individually or in small groups, springing up cults and uprisings. It's not known which God(s) they worship as they never say. Alpharius and Omegon were identical and Alpharius had many of his space marines undergo surgery to look exactly like him and this also made them primarch-huge and they could consume a small amount of the primarchs blood, giving them a massive boost in physical ability. Because of this its not known if Alpharius, Omegon or just a regular Alpha Legion marine was killed by Guilliman.

Not many Alphas worship the Gods tough. I always thought that the 8-pointed stars on their armour are mainly for show, to convince the other Chaos bros of their "true" allegiance.

But yeah, I don't really like the idea of an Alpha Legion warband in 40K. To me they operate like military advisors. Two, three dudes land on a planet, train some cultists/recidivists and then help them take crucial points of a city. A full, head-on assault by the XXth is simply not in their style, at least not in 40K.

 Xathrodox86 wrote:

Cptn_Cronssant wrote:
40k alpha legion are basically space terrorists (as stated above). They tend not to travel around in warbands like other chaos marines but individually or in small groups, springing up cults and uprisings. It's not known which God(s) they worship as they never say. Alpharius and Omegon were identical and Alpharius had many of his space marines undergo surgery to look exactly like him and this also made them primarch-huge and they could consume a small amount of the primarchs blood, giving them a massive boost in physical ability. Because of this its not known if Alpharius, Omegon or just a regular Alpha Legion marine was killed by Guilliman.

Not many Alphas worship the Gods tough. I always thought that the 8-pointed stars on their armour are mainly for show, to convince the other Chaos bros of their "true" allegiance.

But yeah, I don't really like the idea of an Alpha Legion warband in 40K. To me they operate like military advisors. Two, three dudes land on a planet, train some cultists/recidivists and then help them take crucial points of a city. A full, head-on assault by the XXth is simply not in their style, at least not in 40K.

Well, it is if the assault is not actually the real assault, but only a cover operation for some classic AL sneakiness.

 ChazSexington wrote:

Cptn_Cronssant wrote:
40k alpha legion are basically space terrorists (as stated above). They tend not to travel around in warbands like other chaos marines but individually or in small groups, springing up cults and uprisings. It's not known which God(s) they worship as they never say. Alpharius and Omegon were identical and Alpharius had many of his space marines undergo surgery to look exactly like him and this also made them primarch-huge and they could consume a small amount of the primarchs blood, giving them a massive boost in physical ability. Because of this its not known if Alpharius, Omegon or just a regular Alpha Legion marine was killed by Guilliman.

You've got some wrong impressions.

As far as gods, they used to be Chaos Undivided, but Tzeentch tattoos have been mentioned in the fluff and FFG's Tome of Fate put them in the Tzeentch box.

The plastic surgery did not make them primarch-sized. Alpha Legionnaires are taller than other Space Marines, but their primarchs are among the smallest.

Only Sheed Ranko is known to have drunk the primarchs' blood, which he had to do to be able to make Alpha Legionnaires believe he was Alpharius-Omegon due to his increased battle prowess. He was also the head of their elite terminators, the Lernaean Hydras, and not just anyone.

Just because some individuals are depicted as Tzeentchian doesn't mean all are. In the 2nd ed codex some were depicted as carrying Khornate swords. The Alpha Legion is in many ways quite fragmented, so I imagine a wide range of philosophies emerging.

nareik wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

Cptn_Cronssant wrote:
40k alpha legion are basically space terrorists (as stated above). They tend not to travel around in warbands like other chaos marines but individually or in small groups, springing up cults and uprisings. It's not known which God(s) they worship as they never say. Alpharius and Omegon were identical and Alpharius had many of his space marines undergo surgery to look exactly like him and this also made them primarch-huge and they could consume a small amount of the primarchs blood, giving them a massive boost in physical ability. Because of this its not known if Alpharius, Omegon or just a regular Alpha Legion marine was killed by Guilliman.

You've got some wrong impressions.

As far as gods, they used to be Chaos Undivided, but Tzeentch tattoos have been mentioned in the fluff and FFG's Tome of Fate put them in the Tzeentch box.

The plastic surgery did not make them primarch-sized. Alpha Legionnaires are taller than other Space Marines, but their primarchs are among the smallest.

Only Sheed Ranko is known to have drunk the primarchs' blood, which he had to do to be able to make Alpha Legionnaires believe he was Alpharius-Omegon due to his increased battle prowess. He was also the head of their elite terminators, the Lernaean Hydras, and not just anyone.

Just because some individuals are depicted as Tzeentchian doesn't mean all are. In the 2nd ed codex some were depicted as carrying Khornate swords. The Alpha Legion is in many ways quite fragmented, so I imagine a wide range of philosophies emerging.

I wasn't suggesting they all were, just that Tzeentch seems more common than the others. I think they were Slaanesh in Realm of Chaos.

Do not ask about the Alpha Legion, that way lies madness....

FFG's Tome of Fate put them in the Tzeentch box

Not strictly because they were Tzeench, though. Each 'Tome Of' book included one of the undivided legions that 'best suited' the theme; they're not specifically implied to be aligned to that god.

Tome Of Blood - Khorne - World Eaters & Night Lords (Scary Violence)

Tome Of Excess - Slaanesh - Emperor's Children & Word Bearers (Manipulation)

Tome Of Decay - Nurgle - Death Guard & Iron Warriors (Stubborn Attrition Fighters)

Tome Of Fate - Tzeench - Thousand Sons & Alpha Legion (Devious ****ers)

locarno24 wrote:

FFG's Tome of Fate put them in the Tzeentch box

Not strictly because they were Tzeench, though. Each 'Tome Of' book included one of the undivided legions that 'best suited' the theme; they're not specifically implied to be aligned to that god.

Tome Of Blood - Khorne - World Eaters & Night Lords (Scary Violence)

Tome Of Excess - Slaanesh - Emperor's Children & Word Bearers (Manipulation)

Tome Of Decay - Nurgle - Death Guard & Iron Warriors (Stubborn Attrition Fighters)

Tome Of Fate - Tzeench - Thousand Sons & Alpha Legion (Devious ****ers)

True

The first rule of the Alpha Legion is...　

Iron_Captain wrote:

 Xathrodox86 wrote:

Cptn_Cronssant wrote:
40k alpha legion are basically space terrorists (as stated above). They tend not to travel around in warbands like other chaos marines but individually or in small groups, springing up cults and uprisings. It's not known which God(s) they worship as they never say. Alpharius and Omegon were identical and Alpharius had many of his space marines undergo surgery to look exactly like him and this also made them primarch-huge and they could consume a small amount of the primarchs blood, giving them a massive boost in physical ability. Because of this its not known if Alpharius, Omegon or just a regular Alpha Legion marine was killed by Guilliman.

Not many Alphas worship the Gods tough. I always thought that the 8-pointed stars on their armour are mainly for show, to convince the other Chaos bros of their "true" allegiance.

But yeah, I don't really like the idea of an Alpha Legion warband in 40K. To me they operate like military advisors. Two, three dudes land on a planet, train some cultists/recidivists and then help them take crucial points of a city. A full, head-on assault by the XXth is simply not in their style, at least not in 40K.

Well, it is if the assault is not actually the real assault, but only a cover operation for some classic AL sneakiness.

Of course. While the loyalists expend their ammunition on the XXth "assault", the real attack is already dismantling their defences. Just as planned.

War Kitten wrote:Do not ask about the Alpha Legion, that way lies madness....

Eh, only a huge deal of misinformation.