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2016/06/03 16:42:00
Subject: Big Pharma at it again: Capitalism at its finest
The price of a life-saving drug that can reverse an opioid overdose is soaring, just as the Obama administration and Congress are pushing to make it more available.
The rising price for naloxone is causing some emergency response departments to run out of the drug, while many public health groups are growing short of the cash needed to buy it and must rely on donations. It also means two public health crises are colliding — the politically charged debate about high drug prices and the growing concern about lethal addiction.
Prices of some versions of the drug have risen as much as 17-fold in the past two years.
Naloxone, which has been on the market since 1971, is the latest old drug to have a big new price, part of a trend that’s angered Republicans and Democrats alike and has been condemned in congressional hearings.
Democratic presidential candidate Sen. Bernie Sanders and Maryland Rep. Elijah Cummings opened a probe last year into Amphastar Pharmaceuticals, whose generic naloxone is the version most frequently used by emergency responders and in private homes when there is an overdose.
“Opioid abuse is an epidemic across our country, yet drug companies continue to rip off the American people by charging the highest prices in the world because they have no shame,” Sanders said in a statement Friday. “The greed of the pharmaceutical industry is killing Americans.”
(more of the article in the spoiler...it is long, but REALLY good and worth the read)
Spoiler:
The White House has stepped in, helping state and local governments combine their purchasing power to secure deeper discounts of the antidote, which works for both prescription opioids and street heroin. But complaints about soaring prices haven’t dropped off, just as public health officials are trying to make the drug more available in clinics, homes, and schools.
"You have increased demand and a few people who control the pricing, so they can charge whatever they want," said Eliza Wheeler, who runs the drug overdose prevention and education project for the Harm Reduction Coalition in Northern California.
More than 28,000 people died from opioid and heroin overdoses in 2014, more than any year on record, according to the Centers for Disease Control.
Congress is also focusing on addiction. The House passed a package of 18 bills last week aimed at tackling the opioid epidemic, and it will now go to conference with a Senate package (S. 524) passed in March.
With no new federal money attached to those bills, it’s unclear how many new opioid and heroin patients the antidote will reach or when. But House Appropriations Committee chairman Hal Rogers (R-Ky.) said lawmakers will be looking at the rising price of naloxone.
Rep. Patrick Meehan (R-Pa.) who wrote one of the opioid bills, concurred. “My suspicion is, there will eventually be efforts to hold down the cost,” he told POLITICO, adding that lawmakers had been focusing on access but should now also explore cost.
Drug companies blame the increases on manufacturing and packing costs, wholesalers and insurance company policies. New generic and branded competitors have entered the market but have had little impact on the price.
The price rise trajectory doesn’t fit the narrative the pharmaceutical industry has been putting forward, which portrays companies like Martin Shkreli’s former drugmaker Turing Pharmaceuticals as unique “bad actors” taking advantage of market failures. Shkreli's company raised the price of an AIDS drug.
Five versions of naloxone are now on the market — no failure there — and still, its price keeps rising.
The list price of Kaleo Pharma’s auto-inject version – specifically approved for a people without medical training to use in a life-threatening crisis — soared from $575 to $3,750 per two-dose package in just two years, according to Truven Health Analytics. Amphastar’s product cost $66 for two syringes at the end of 2014, nearly double the price a year earlier. Two vials of Hospira's generic, which cost $1.84 in 2005, shot up to $31.66 by 2014.
The price spikes are “not conscionable,” said Baltimore Health Commissioner Leana Wen, who has pushed for wider availability of the overdose antidote.
Generic versions of the drug cost pennies in other countries and could be had for under $1 in the U.S. not long ago. “We have not been able to understand what is motivating them except for profit,” Wen said.
A third generic naloxone, Mylan, entered the market in 2014, but that didn't reduce the drug's price. Another new drug, Adapt Pharma’s Narcan nasal spray, was approved in November, at a list price of $125 for two doses, with a "public interest price” of $75 for first responders and certain others.
“You would hope as we get more preparations they would get more competitive and start undercutting prices, but so far no dice,” said Sharon Stancliff, a medical director at the Harm Reduction Coalition.
The price increases have increased tension in the public health community. Limited government and private grant funding goes to help police, school nurses and emergency departments pay for naloxone, but community programs — which deliver naloxone, but also counseling and other services — are left out, Wheeler said.
Naloxone was first approved to reverse overdoses but also to diminish the impact of opioids given during surgery in hospitals. But as the opioid epidemic set in, outpatient use of naloxone has increased by 72 percent in the last five years, according to Food and Drug Administration data.
Generic drugmakers can’t legally sell naloxone for administration by first responders or non-medical professionals. That means that home-use versions have to be repackaged and marketed by a third party.
Amphastar, whose product is popular because it has been repackaged as a nasal spray, says these third parties are the ones jacking up the price. The company points to websites like BlowoutMedical.com, which sells naloxone kits for more than $130.
Insurers rarely pay for outpatient use of naloxone, and the groups that buy most of the drug lack clout to bargain with drugmakers. Many buying the drug pay for it out of pocket at a pharmacy.
The city of Baltimore, which gets its naloxone from medical supplier McKesson, pays $40 per dose of Amphastar, although its list price is $33. McKesson did not respond to requests to comment.
Some see the naloxone price hikes as part and parcel of the general trend. Hospira and Amphastar have raised the prices of many of their sterile injectable drugs in recent years, not just naloxone, says Wheeler of the Harm Reduction Coalition. Hospira has invested hundreds of millions of dollars to respond to FDA concerns about its manufacturing facilities. That may have influenced its pricing.
“Our actions have reflected sensitivity to the need for the product, and also take into account the reality and necessary investments needed to produce high-quality generic drugs,” said Rachel Hooper, a spokeswoman for Hospira, now owned by Pfizer.
Amphastar also says it has spent millions over the last two years to increase naloxone production. Cummings’ office says the company provided no documentation to support that claim.
Kaleo, on the other hand, says it raised prices of its naloxone product Evzio so it could afford to cover patient copays; insurers say this practice directs patients to pricier branded drugs, while raising everyone’s insurance costs.
“It’s not a solution that addresses the underlying issue, which is the price itself,” said America’s Health Insurance Plans spokeswoman Clare Krusing. “It shows that pharma is willing do to do anything to change the insurance model … so they don’t have to address the underlying price of the medications that they are charging.”
Before the company hiked naloxone prices this year, about two-thirds of Evzio prescriptions were never filled, said Kaleo spokesman Mark Herzog. Since the company started its patient access program in February — which is subsidized by new revenue generated by the price increase — filled prescriptions increased by 83 percent.
The drug in the auto injector is essentially the same as the older generic versions. About all that’s changed is the packaging, which includes voice-activated instructions.
“When I was little I had some dolls that talked,” said Carol Cunningham, medical director for the Ohio Department of Public Safety’s EMS division. “They didn’t cost $400.”
I certainly do not begrudge any company from making a profit....but when exploitation and manipulation are used to maximize those profits, a line must be drawn.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/06/03 16:46:24
I destroy my enemies when I make them my friends.
Three!! Three successful trades! Ah ah ah!
2016/06/03 16:54:17
Subject: Big Pharma at it again: Capitalism at its finest
The IP has expired correct? Then why are you mad at companies?
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2016/06/03 16:58:13
Subject: Big Pharma at it again: Capitalism at its finest
Frazzled wrote: The IP has expired correct? Then why are you mad at companies?
Because there's currently no cap on pharmaceuticals. Believe me, my wife is on Lovenox during her pregnancy and a 2 week twice a day supply is $4000. Our insurance covers 90%, but that's still $175 for two weeks for the next 9 months. That doesn't seem wrong to you?
Frazzled wrote: The IP has expired correct? Then why are you mad at companies?
You tell me, frazz....
Generic versions of the drug cost pennies in other countries and could be had for under $1 in the U.S. not long ago. “We have not been able to understand what is motivating them except for profit,” Wen said.
I destroy my enemies when I make them my friends.
Three!! Three successful trades! Ah ah ah!
2016/06/03 16:58:31
Subject: Big Pharma at it again: Capitalism at its finest
The price of a life-saving drug that can reverse an opioid overdose is soaring, just as the Obama administration and Congress are pushing to make it more available.
The rising price for naloxone is causing some emergency response departments to run out of the drug, while many public health groups are growing short of the cash needed to buy it and must rely on donations. It also means two public health crises are colliding — the politically charged debate about high drug prices and the growing concern about lethal addiction.
Prices of some versions of the drug have risen as much as 17-fold in the past two years.
Naloxone, which has been on the market since 1971, is the latest old drug to have a big new price, part of a trend that’s angered Republicans and Democrats alike and has been condemned in congressional hearings.
Democratic presidential candidate Sen. Bernie Sanders and Maryland Rep. Elijah Cummings opened a probe last year into Amphastar Pharmaceuticals, whose generic naloxone is the version most frequently used by emergency responders and in private homes when there is an overdose.
“Opioid abuse is an epidemic across our country, yet drug companies continue to rip off the American people by charging the highest prices in the world because they have no shame,” Sanders said in a statement Friday. “The greed of the pharmaceutical industry is killing Americans.”
(more of the article in the spoiler...it is long, but REALLY good and worth the read)
Spoiler:
The White House has stepped in, helping state and local governments combine their purchasing power to secure deeper discounts of the antidote, which works for both prescription opioids and street heroin. But complaints about soaring prices haven’t dropped off, just as public health officials are trying to make the drug more available in clinics, homes, and schools.
"You have increased demand and a few people who control the pricing, so they can charge whatever they want," said Eliza Wheeler, who runs the drug overdose prevention and education project for the Harm Reduction Coalition in Northern California.
More than 28,000 people died from opioid and heroin overdoses in 2014, more than any year on record, according to the Centers for Disease Control.
Congress is also focusing on addiction. The House passed a package of 18 bills last week aimed at tackling the opioid epidemic, and it will now go to conference with a Senate package (S. 524) passed in March.
With no new federal money attached to those bills, it’s unclear how many new opioid and heroin patients the antidote will reach or when. But House Appropriations Committee chairman Hal Rogers (R-Ky.) said lawmakers will be looking at the rising price of naloxone.
Rep. Patrick Meehan (R-Pa.) who wrote one of the opioid bills, concurred. “My suspicion is, there will eventually be efforts to hold down the cost,” he told POLITICO, adding that lawmakers had been focusing on access but should now also explore cost.
Drug companies blame the increases on manufacturing and packing costs, wholesalers and insurance company policies. New generic and branded competitors have entered the market but have had little impact on the price.
The price rise trajectory doesn’t fit the narrative the pharmaceutical industry has been putting forward, which portrays companies like Martin Shkreli’s former drugmaker Turing Pharmaceuticals as unique “bad actors” taking advantage of market failures. Shkreli's company raised the price of an AIDS drug.
Five versions of naloxone are now on the market — no failure there — and still, its price keeps rising.
The list price of Kaleo Pharma’s auto-inject version – specifically approved for a people without medical training to use in a life-threatening crisis — soared from $575 to $3,750 per two-dose package in just two years, according to Truven Health Analytics. Amphastar’s product cost $66 for two syringes at the end of 2014, nearly double the price a year earlier. Two vials of Hospira's generic, which cost $1.84 in 2005, shot up to $31.66 by 2014.
The price spikes are “not conscionable,” said Baltimore Health Commissioner Leana Wen, who has pushed for wider availability of the overdose antidote.
Generic versions of the drug cost pennies in other countries and could be had for under $1 in the U.S. not long ago. “We have not been able to understand what is motivating them except for profit,” Wen said.
A third generic naloxone, Mylan, entered the market in 2014, but that didn't reduce the drug's price. Another new drug, Adapt Pharma’s Narcan nasal spray, was approved in November, at a list price of $125 for two doses, with a "public interest price” of $75 for first responders and certain others.
“You would hope as we get more preparations they would get more competitive and start undercutting prices, but so far no dice,” said Sharon Stancliff, a medical director at the Harm Reduction Coalition.
The price increases have increased tension in the public health community. Limited government and private grant funding goes to help police, school nurses and emergency departments pay for naloxone, but community programs — which deliver naloxone, but also counseling and other services — are left out, Wheeler said.
Naloxone was first approved to reverse overdoses but also to diminish the impact of opioids given during surgery in hospitals. But as the opioid epidemic set in, outpatient use of naloxone has increased by 72 percent in the last five years, according to Food and Drug Administration data.
Generic drugmakers can’t legally sell naloxone for administration by first responders or non-medical professionals. That means that home-use versions have to be repackaged and marketed by a third party.
Amphastar, whose product is popular because it has been repackaged as a nasal spray, says these third parties are the ones jacking up the price. The company points to websites like BlowoutMedical.com, which sells naloxone kits for more than $130.
Insurers rarely pay for outpatient use of naloxone, and the groups that buy most of the drug lack clout to bargain with drugmakers. Many buying the drug pay for it out of pocket at a pharmacy.
The city of Baltimore, which gets its naloxone from medical supplier McKesson, pays $40 per dose of Amphastar, although its list price is $33. McKesson did not respond to requests to comment.
Some see the naloxone price hikes as part and parcel of the general trend. Hospira and Amphastar have raised the prices of many of their sterile injectable drugs in recent years, not just naloxone, says Wheeler of the Harm Reduction Coalition. Hospira has invested hundreds of millions of dollars to respond to FDA concerns about its manufacturing facilities. That may have influenced its pricing.
“Our actions have reflected sensitivity to the need for the product, and also take into account the reality and necessary investments needed to produce high-quality generic drugs,” said Rachel Hooper, a spokeswoman for Hospira, now owned by Pfizer.
Amphastar also says it has spent millions over the last two years to increase naloxone production. Cummings’ office says the company provided no documentation to support that claim.
Kaleo, on the other hand, says it raised prices of its naloxone product Evzio so it could afford to cover patient copays; insurers say this practice directs patients to pricier branded drugs, while raising everyone’s insurance costs.
“It’s not a solution that addresses the underlying issue, which is the price itself,” said America’s Health Insurance Plans spokeswoman Clare Krusing. “It shows that pharma is willing do to do anything to change the insurance model … so they don’t have to address the underlying price of the medications that they are charging.”
Before the company hiked naloxone prices this year, about two-thirds of Evzio prescriptions were never filled, said Kaleo spokesman Mark Herzog. Since the company started its patient access program in February — which is subsidized by new revenue generated by the price increase — filled prescriptions increased by 83 percent.
The drug in the auto injector is essentially the same as the older generic versions. About all that’s changed is the packaging, which includes voice-activated instructions.
“When I was little I had some dolls that talked,” said Carol Cunningham, medical director for the Ohio Department of Public Safety’s EMS division. “They didn’t cost $400.”
what can I say there will be abusers and such, but also look at it this way, if there is no major profit, do you think drug companies will sink billions into research for cures? look at the ongoing hunt for the cure to cancer, more money has gone into that then most countries are worth. people do not realize drug R&D is not cheap, but on the other hand like the one guy who jacked up that HIV (Aids?) pill was just wrong on so many levels.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/06/03 16:59:54
Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project.
2016/06/03 17:00:18
Subject: Big Pharma at it again: Capitalism at its finest
what can I say there will be abusers and such, but also look at it this way, if there is no major profit, do you think drug companies will sink billions into research for cures? look at the ongoing hunt for the cure to cancer, more money has gone into that then most countries are worth. people do not realize drug R&D is not cheap, but on the other hand like the one guy who jacked up that HIV (Aids?) pill was just wrong on so many levels.
So it's okay to fund life saving cures, as long as companies can turn a profit? What's it matter if I can cure cancer if I have to sell my house, live on the street, and work 3 jobs just to afford it?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/06/03 17:01:28
Frazzled wrote: The IP has expired correct? Then why are you mad at companies?
Because there's currently no cap on pharmaceuticals. Believe me, my wife is on Lovenox during her pregnancy and a 2 week twice a day supply is $4000. Our insurance covers 90%, but that's still $175 for two weeks for the next 9 months. That doesn't seem wrong to you?
Why should there be a cap on pharmaceuticals, especially if there is no IP protection?
Frazzled wrote: The IP has expired correct? Then why are you mad at companies?
You tell me, frazz....
Generic versions of the drug cost pennies in other countries and could be had for under $1 in the U.S. not long ago. “We have not been able to understand what is motivating them except for profit,” Wen said.
Thats my point. If there is no IP protection there is nothing stopping generics but themselves.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/03 17:06:05
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2016/06/03 17:07:28
Subject: Big Pharma at it again: Capitalism at its finest
Frazzled wrote: The IP has expired correct? Then why are you mad at companies?
The IP has expired, and five companies now make the drug.
Isn't that exactly when we should be mad at companies for for a 1700% price hike over two years? Either they haven't increased production to meet demand (which flies in the face of capitalist ethic), or they're purposely increasing the price which is just disgusting when it comes to life saving drugs.
Seems like another healthcare industry abuse of the age old adage; people will choose not dying regardless of the price.
what can I say there will be abusers and such, but also look at it this way, if there is no major profit, do you think drug companies will sink billions into research for cures? look at the ongoing hunt for the cure to cancer, more money has gone into that then most countries are worth. people do not realize drug R&D is not cheap, but on the other hand like the one guy who jacked up that HIV (Aids?) pill was just wrong on so many levels.
So it's okay to fund life saving cures, as long as companies can turn a profit? What's it matter if I can cure cancer if I have to sell my house, live on the street, and work 3 jobs just to afford it?
and what is the incentive for them to find the cures if no profit? seriously, you think those lab workers who spent a lot of money and and then some on schooling will work for free?
Frazzled wrote: The IP has expired correct? Then why are you mad at companies?
The IP has expired, and five companies now make the drug.
Isn't that exactly when we should be mad at companies for for a 1700% price hike over two years? Either they haven't increased production to meet demand (which flies in the face of capitalist ethic), or they're purposely increasing the price which is just disgusting when it comes to life saving drugs.
Seems like another healthcare industry abuse of the age old adage; people will choose not dying regardless of the price.
have materials costs gone up? have workers costs gone up? none of that is mentioned and its not like a single pharmacy guy waves a magic wand and pills appear out of nowhere, remember minimum wage is going up so costs will be going up.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/03 17:10:41
Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project.
2016/06/03 17:09:01
Subject: Big Pharma at it again: Capitalism at its finest
what can I say there will be abusers and such, but also look at it this way, if there is no major profit, do you think drug companies will sink billions into research for cures? look at the ongoing hunt for the cure to cancer, more money has gone into that then most countries are worth. people do not realize drug R&D is not cheap, but on the other hand like the one guy who jacked up that HIV (Aids?) pill was just wrong on so many levels.
So it's okay to fund life saving cures, as long as companies can turn a profit? What's it matter if I can cure cancer if I have to sell my house, live on the street, and work 3 jobs just to afford it?
Policy wise you should be arguing for purchasing help. With no IP then its math.
Frazzled wrote: The IP has expired correct? Then why are you mad at companies?
The IP has expired, and five companies now make the drug.
Isn't that exactly when we should be mad at companies for for a 1700% price hike over two years? Either they haven't increased production to meet demand (which flies in the face of capitalist ethic), or they're purposely increasing the price which is just disgusting when it comes to life saving drugs.
Seems like another healthcare industry abuse of the age old adage; people will choose not dying regardless of the price.
Price fixing is illegal. if they are colluding that is a matter for the federales and I firmly agree that price fixers should be prosecuted to the furthest extent of the law.
But you're mad that they haven't increased production, but want to penalize them for it and reduce the price...why? Why wouldn't they just respond by shutting off production completely? or are you advocating foreclosed servitude?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/06/03 17:14:13
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2016/06/03 17:24:28
Subject: Big Pharma at it again: Capitalism at its finest
Asterios wrote: have materials costs gone up? have workers costs gone up? none of that is mentioned and its not like a single pharmacy guy waves a magic wand and pills appear out of nowhere, remember minimum wage is going up so costs will be going up.
Do increased material and worker costs account for a 1700% increase in such a short time? That's rather odd.
But you're mad that they haven't increased production, but want to penalize them for it and reduce the price...why? Why wouldn't they just respond by shutting off production completely? or are you advocating foreclosed servitude?
I'm advocating that capitalist markets do not behave that way. If there is no barrier to increased production, production will rise to meet demand, and there is zero barrier to production on a drug no longer under IP protections. All you need is the formula and a fancy chemistry set. It's R&D where the costs are in the drug industry, not production. Production is dirt cheap, and claims that "packaging" costs explain at 1700% increase in price just reeks of BS. Prices going up in this manner is bizarre, and I'd argue that not increasing production to increase prices is price fixing. I don't call for penalties regardless. I mere ask why I shouldn't be angry? It looks like a pretty angering situation across the entire industry, where companies pick drugs for price hikes in a pretty damn targeted looking manner. It might not be illegal, but it certainly looks disgusting.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/06/03 17:26:15
Asterios wrote: have materials costs gone up? have workers costs gone up? none of that is mentioned and its not like a single pharmacy guy waves a magic wand and pills appear out of nowhere, remember minimum wage is going up so costs will be going up.
Do increased material and worker costs account for a 1700% increase in such a short time? That's rather odd.
But you're mad that they haven't increased production, but want to penalize them for it and reduce the price...why? Why wouldn't they just respond by shutting off production completely? or are you advocating foreclosed servitude?
I'm advocating that capitalist markets do not behave that way. If there is no barrier to increased production, production will rise to meet demand, and there is zero barrier to production on a drug no longer under IP protections. All you need is the formula and a fancy chemistry set. It's R&D where the costs are in the drug industry, not production. Production is dirt cheap, and claims that "packaging" costs explain at 1700% increase in price just reeks of BS. Prices going up in this manner is bizarre, and I'd argue that not increasing production to increase prices is price fixing. I don't call for penalties regardless. I mere ask why I shouldn't be angry? It looks like a pretty angering situation across the entire industry, where companies pick drugs for price hikes in a pretty damn targeted looking manner. It might not be illegal, but it certainly looks disgusting.
oh so the materials required for drugs appear out of nowhere and never go up in price? seriously? you get those chemicals in your fancy chemistry set for free?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/03 17:31:35
Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project.
2016/06/03 17:31:58
Subject: Big Pharma at it again: Capitalism at its finest
I'm certainly not an expert on big pharma but if there is no more IP protection for the drug then another company should be able to swoop in start producing it undercut the exorbitant price grab a huge market share and make plenty of profit. Not sure why that hasn't happened.
Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
0028/08/03 17:32:50
Subject: Big Pharma at it again: Capitalism at its finest
I would argue that the materials, manufacturing, employee costs, and packaging for the drugs have not experienced a proportionate increase that warrants a 650+% price hike.
I use that figure based on the rise from $575 to $3,750 for one particular drug mentioned in the article.
(3750 ÷ 575 = 6.52) × % = 652%
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/06/03 17:44:07
I destroy my enemies when I make them my friends.
Three!! Three successful trades! Ah ah ah!
2016/06/03 17:33:02
Subject: Big Pharma at it again: Capitalism at its finest
Prestor Jon wrote: I'm certainly not an expert on big pharma but if there is no more IP protection for the drug then another company should be able to swoop in start producing it undercut the exorbitant price grab a huge market share and make plenty of profit. Not sure why that hasn't happened.
probably because costs for making the drug have gone up too.
Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project.
2016/06/03 17:35:30
Subject: Big Pharma at it again: Capitalism at its finest
Prestor Jon wrote: I'm certainly not an expert on big pharma but if there is no more IP protection for the drug then another company should be able to swoop in start producing it undercut the exorbitant price grab a huge market share and make plenty of profit. Not sure why that hasn't happened.
Collusion seems to me may be the culprit.
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2016/06/03 17:37:21
Subject: Big Pharma at it again: Capitalism at its finest
Prestor Jon wrote: I'm certainly not an expert on big pharma but if there is no more IP protection for the drug then another company should be able to swoop in start producing it undercut the exorbitant price grab a huge market share and make plenty of profit. Not sure why that hasn't happened.
probably because costs for making the drug have gone up too.
Not 1700%.
<--- 18 years in manufacturing. Costs are not that high right now. Not even in California.
DA:70S+G+M+B++I++Pw40k08+D++A++/fWD-R+T(M)DM+
2016/06/03 17:38:04
Subject: Big Pharma at it again: Capitalism at its finest
Prestor Jon wrote: I'm certainly not an expert on big pharma but if there is no more IP protection for the drug then another company should be able to swoop in start producing it undercut the exorbitant price grab a huge market share and make plenty of profit. Not sure why that hasn't happened.
Collusion seems to me may be the culprit.
Colusion maybe if others joined and price matched, but other companies not making the generic, so don't think its collusion, i'm still think costs went way up.
Prestor Jon wrote: I'm certainly not an expert on big pharma but if there is no more IP protection for the drug then another company should be able to swoop in start producing it undercut the exorbitant price grab a huge market share and make plenty of profit. Not sure why that hasn't happened.
probably because costs for making the drug have gone up too.
Not 1700%.
<--- 18 years in manufacturing. Costs are not that high right now. Not even in California.
min. wage increases, raises costs across the board, new environmental laws go into effect, raises costs across the board, new taxs go into effect raises prices across the board, less money returned from Medicare and Medical and such could be looking at a perfect storm here where all costs went up on the drug, especially since it is not the only drug going up in price it seems.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/03 17:40:53
Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project.
2016/06/03 17:40:42
Subject: Big Pharma at it again: Capitalism at its finest
I would argue that the companies have avoided specific price matching especially to deflect the idea of collusion...however....that doesn't mean that they all haven't increased their prices by disproportionate amounts.
I destroy my enemies when I make them my friends.
Three!! Three successful trades! Ah ah ah!
2016/06/03 17:41:20
Subject: Big Pharma at it again: Capitalism at its finest
Prestor Jon wrote: I'm certainly not an expert on big pharma but if there is no more IP protection for the drug then another company should be able to swoop in start producing it undercut the exorbitant price grab a huge market share and make plenty of profit. Not sure why that hasn't happened.
Collusion seems to me may be the culprit.
Colusion maybe if others joined and price matched, but other companies not making the generic, so don't think its collusion, i'm still think costs went way up.
It's almost like you didn't read the article. There are 5 versions made by at least 3 different manufacturers, excluding overseas generic versions.
Five versions of naloxone are now on the market — no failure there — and still, its price keeps rising.
The list price of Kaleo Pharma’s auto-inject version – specifically approved for a people without medical training to use in a life-threatening crisis — soared from $575 to $3,750 per two-dose package in just two years, according to Truven Health Analytics. Amphastar’s product cost $66 for two syringes at the end of 2014, nearly double the price a year earlier. Two vials of Hospira's generic, which cost $1.84 in 2005, shot up to $31.66 by 2014.
The price spikes are “not conscionable,” said Baltimore Health Commissioner Leana Wen, who has pushed for wider availability of the overdose antidote.
Generic versions of the drug cost pennies in other countries and could be had for under $1 in the U.S. not long ago. “We have not been able to understand what is motivating them except for profit,” Wen said.
A third generic naloxone, Mylan, entered the market in 2014, but that didn't reduce the drug's price. Another new drug, Adapt Pharma’s Narcan nasal spray, was approved in November, at a list price of $125 for two doses, with a "public interest price” of $75 for first responders and certain others.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/03 17:42:03
DA:70S+G+M+B++I++Pw40k08+D++A++/fWD-R+T(M)DM+
2016/06/03 17:41:55
Subject: Big Pharma at it again: Capitalism at its finest
I'm advocating that capitalist markets do not behave that way. If there is no barrier to increased production, production will rise to meet demand, and there is zero barrier to production on a drug no longer under IP protections.
Incorrect. You are not factoring in capital costs, labor, training, and of course how much demand there is.
If there are multiple parties manufacturing, absent price collusion there's really nothing there to pin your argument on.
Am I saying you are wrong in bitching? Nope. Am I saying there could be price collusion? Yep-but thats what the Fed is for. BUT, absent that, what do you believe the remedy should be? What if the manufacturers then quit shipping product to the US?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/03 17:45:28
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2016/06/03 17:42:25
Subject: Big Pharma at it again: Capitalism at its finest
Prestor Jon wrote: I'm certainly not an expert on big pharma but if there is no more IP protection for the drug then another company should be able to swoop in start producing it undercut the exorbitant price grab a huge market share and make plenty of profit. Not sure why that hasn't happened.
Collusion seems to me may be the culprit.
Colusion maybe if others joined and price matched, but other companies not making the generic, so don't think its collusion, i'm still think costs went way up.
It's made by at least 5 companies...
Not sure if I can *get it* from all as there are shortages....
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2016/06/03 17:43:36
Subject: Big Pharma at it again: Capitalism at its finest
Asterios wrote: oh so the materials required for drugs appear out of nowhere and never go up in price?
Such that they justify such an extreme increase in price? I highly doubt it. The actual costs of making most medications is very low. Drug costs have always had more to do with offsetting the cost of bringing it to market (R&D, FDA regulations, marketing, etc). That reality makes claims that an alleged material cost increase in the production stage extremely hallow.
Prestor Jon wrote: I'm certainly not an expert on big pharma but if there is no more IP protection for the drug then another company should be able to swoop in start producing it undercut the exorbitant price grab a huge market share and make plenty of profit. Not sure why that hasn't happened.
Collusion seems to me may be the culprit.
Colusion maybe if others joined and price matched, but other companies not making the generic, so don't think its collusion, i'm still think costs went way up.
It's almost like you didn't read the article. There are 5 versions made by at least 3 different manufacturers, excluding overseas generic versions.
Five versions of naloxone are now on the market — no failure there — and still, its price keeps rising.
The list price of Kaleo Pharma’s auto-inject version – specifically approved for a people without medical training to use in a life-threatening crisis — soared from $575 to $3,750 per two-dose package in just two years, according to Truven Health Analytics. Amphastar’s product cost $66 for two syringes at the end of 2014, nearly double the price a year earlier. Two vials of Hospira's generic, which cost $1.84 in 2005, shot up to $31.66 by 2014.
The price spikes are “not conscionable,” said Baltimore Health Commissioner Leana Wen, who has pushed for wider availability of the overdose antidote.
Generic versions of the drug cost pennies in other countries and could be had for under $1 in the U.S. not long ago. “We have not been able to understand what is motivating them except for profit,” Wen said.
A third generic naloxone, Mylan, entered the market in 2014, but that didn't reduce the drug's price. Another new drug, Adapt Pharma’s Narcan nasal spray, was approved in November, at a list price of $125 for two doses, with a "public interest price” of $75 for first responders and certain others.
and yet Captiilists being capitilists would try to undercut to take the lion share of the sales, and if they didn't another company would, and yet don't. collusion of price fixing rarely works since there is always someone out there to make an easy buck.
Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project.
2016/06/03 17:46:09
Subject: Big Pharma at it again: Capitalism at its finest
Frazzled wrote: If there are multiple parties manufacturing, absent price collusion there's really nothing there to pin your argument on.
Most drugs are produced in factories, not in labs. It's not a labor intensive field, and only capital intensive if you're not already in it.
Given the nature if the drug in the OP, demand obviously exists (the article outright states that potential buyers are being forced out by price, not by a lack of demand). There's not enough information in the OP article to know exactly why the price has gone up, but that has no real baring on angered reactions to the behaviors of the industry. They just look bad.
Frazzled wrote: If there are multiple parties manufacturing, absent price collusion there's really nothing there to pin your argument on.
Most drugs are produced in factories, not in labs. It's not a labor intensive field, and only capital intensive if you're not already in it.
Given the nature if the drug in the OP, demand obviously exists (the article outright states that potential buyers are being forced out by price, not by a lack of demand). There's not enough information in the OP article to know exactly why the price has gone up, but that has no real baring on angered reactions to the behaviors of the industry. They just look bad.
yeah the article is one sided and does not give reasons or excuses why, it tells nothing but big bad pharma being mean to people.
Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project.
2016/06/03 17:49:41
Subject: Big Pharma at it again: Capitalism at its finest
Most drugs are produced in factories, not in labs. It's not a labor intensive field, and only capital intensive if you're not already in it.
You just pulled a Trump and contradicted yourself. If drugs are produced in factories, that specifically means they are in fact capital intensive.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2016/06/03 17:50:23
Subject: Big Pharma at it again: Capitalism at its finest
And part of the reason that there is a lack of information is because the pharma companies will not and do not share production cost information....nor other information that could legitimately show a need to increase prices.
They just trot out the generic "Because...." with nothing to back it up...or...they stonewall with silence.
I destroy my enemies when I make them my friends.
Three!! Three successful trades! Ah ah ah!
2016/06/03 17:51:23
Subject: Big Pharma at it again: Capitalism at its finest
Incorrect. You are not factoring in capital costs, labor, training, and of course how much demand there is.
All of which are also a factor in foreign countries , and yet compare the costs...
... Cake or Death indeed.
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
~1.5k
