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So I started thinking (I know, it's a bad habit of mine and I really should quit) about good niches where all the separate Imperium factions serve their best purpose. Even the worst tend to have some purpose (I'm kind of like a real-life amalthian, always wondering about the best ways to synergize). So I got to thinking the about the best team of Space Marine Factions to hold crusades against Orks, and soon I had collected a list of all the space marine chapters we all love to hate because on ork worlds there is no such thing as "collateral damage" (no, I'm not talking about places like Armageddon, I'm talking worlds 100% in orkish grasp, where all the humans have either been wiped out or never existed there in the first place).

Anyways, I know I'm not alone in thinking that there are "Best" factions suited for certain tasks in the fluff. If you had a dream team to accomplish a particular mission, what would the mission be, and who would make it on the list? Would you have the Salamanders team up with the Ordo Sepulcherum to incinterate the plague slain? Would you have the Ultramarines searching for lost planets to return to the fold of the Imperium?

I always think back to one of the first Horus Heresy novels where Guilliman is talking about The Dauntless Few, the Blood Angels, Iron Hands, Imperial Fists, and his Ultramarines, the four Legions that he claims he could win ANY war with, if their might was combined. So I guess that's my take-all-comers, lame answer.

Not as lame as one would think. I actually kind of like the way HH books portray Guilliman, like a cross between Sun Tzu and Julius Caesar. If it wasn't for Matt Ward's "Spiritual Liege" comment, there would be a whole lot more love for the guy. The only thing I would think kind of throws a wrench in the plan is the recent and utterly dogmatic reliance on the Codex (I'm still wondering how that exactly works, because if the codex astartes reads anything like the Art of War than adaptability and versatility should should be about the only thing they really "adhere" to). But if we took the ultrasmurfs back to the days of the Great Crusade, then I would totally agree: They'd be pretty much unstoppable together.

I like to imagine a buddy-cop comedy featuring Vulkan and Konrad Curze in the starring roles.

As far as regards the 30k legions, just about any team would be made better by the presence of the Iron Warriors (before meeting Pert) when they were still the solid, reliable, workhorse legion. I know Guillimen had some relatively close buddies in the 4th before Pert took over, so maybe they would have been on his list once. Also, I had no idea Guilliman had such regard for Manus and the Iron hands (not saying he disrespected them, just I never saw any buddy/buddy signs).

As far as 40k goes, I agree that most offensive crusades against anyone should ideally be made up of the Adeptus Arseholeus, regardless of the xeno species in question. The only question would be if the sector could handle that much jerkassery.
Another group that might work together would be the SoB, regiments from Tallarn, and SM chapters that actually worship the emperor as a god (dunno any right here and now, I have a vague suspicion the Red scorpions are one of them).

Randomrolls wrote:
Not as lame as one would think. I actually kind of like the way HH books portray Guilliman, like a cross between Sun Tzu and Julius Caesar. If it wasn't for Matt Ward's "Spiritual Liege" comment, there would be a whole lot more love for the guy. The only thing I would think kind of throws a wrench in the plan is the recent and utterly dogmatic reliance on the Codex (I'm still wondering how that exactly works, because if the codex astartes reads anything like the Art of War than adaptability and versatility should should be about the only thing they really "adhere" to). But if we took the ultrasmurfs back to the days of the Great Crusade, then I would totally agree: They'd be pretty much unstoppable together.

the most recent source outright says the codex is all about adaptability and flexability, however the codex ALSO says how a space marine chapter should be orginized etc. and THAT is where I see the Ultramarines likely being, for the most part, inflexable. the codex says "the first company contains the veterans, whom shalt be the ones allowed to sue terminator armor, companies 2 through 5 shalt be battle companies, companies 6 and 7 shall be reserve tatical companies with company 8 a reserve tatical and company 9 a reserve devestator, company ten shalt doth be the scout company. each of these comp;anies will have the following units in them.... in addition the chapter shalt maintain a Librarius, an armory a reclusiarium, and a command staff, that shalt be orginized like so.."

this is why the blood angels, for example would be deemed non-codex compl;iant, the codex does not make mention of a seperate special formation for those suffering from the black rage.

hence the Ultramarines being inflexable would refuse say... to repurpose one of their reserve tatical companies as a battle company, ever, no matter how much they might need it. this also explains why the Tyranid war veterns was such a controversy. it's a formation not supported by the codex.

Ultramarines and Space Wolves. Reasons being:

1. They would ake a great comedic duo.

2. Their combined levels of plot army and marry sue status would overwhelm any foe.

Alpha Legion and Ravenguard. Stealth upped to 100%, without any (or at least minimum) civilian casualties.

 Xathrodox86 wrote:
Alpha Legion and Ravenguard. Stealth upped to 100%, without any (or at least minimum) civilian casualties.

Well the Alpha Legion would sacrifice (and have sacrified) large groups of human to serve their plans and victory. They have used bloody civilian riots, entire army groups, just to allow their shock troops to win a battle. If anything, they would clash with the Raven Guard on that matter. Not to mention that Alpha Legion human operatives are not much more than slaves to their whims, which is precisely against what Corax fought on his homeworld.

Engrenages wrote:

 Xathrodox86 wrote:
Alpha Legion and Ravenguard. Stealth upped to 100%, without any (or at least minimum) civilian casualties.

Well the Alpha Legion would sacrifice (and have sacrified) large groups of human to serve their plans and victory. They have used bloody civilian riots, entire army groups, just to allow their shock troops to win a battle. If anything, they would clash with the Raven Guard on that matter. Not to mention that Alpha Legion human operatives are not much more than slaves to their whims, which is precisely against what Corax fought on his homeworld.

I'm assuming that they'd restraint themselves a bit with the whole "collateral" damage thingie. That's what this cooperation would be about after all.

Also didn't the XXth actually treated their human servants/operatives as equals, when it came to operational matters? You know, like they've used to cooridnate plans before battle, and everyone had a chance to speak their mind? If I recall correctly, that's what pissed Guilliman off so much, when it came to Alphas. At least it was one of the things that irked him about them.

 Xathrodox86 wrote:
I'm assuming that they'd restraint themselves a bit with the whole "collateral" damage thingie. That's what this cooperation would be about after all.

Also didn't the XXth actually treated their human servants/operatives as equals, when it came to operational matters? You know, like they've used to cooridnate plans before battle, and everyone had a chance to speak their mind? If I recall correctly, that's what pissed Guilliman off so much, when it came to Alphas. At least it was one of the things that irked him about them.

The Alpha Legion wouldn't restrain themselves because their entire philosophy on war is to utilize and maximize every single advantage they have. They treated their human operatives as valuable resources not to be wasted - there's a big difference between being used effectively and being treated as equals.

The two legions only look similar on the surface. The reason the Alpha Legion pissed Guilliman off is because they focused so much on achieving the most operationally perfect victories they lost sight of the bigger picture (what the objective was in the first place).

One of the examples (or the example) from that Guilliman/Alpharius story was, when told to take the enemy capital on Tesstra Prime, instead of just doing so, they allowed the enemy to dig in just so they could expertly take the defences apart. They then spent a long time setting up a plan that caused 90% casualties for the defenders while taking few or no casualties themselves. When asked by Guilliman why he did this, Alpharius replied: "It would have been too easy." That's why they disagreed - needless complication for a challenge rather than focusing on achieving the overall strategic goal.

Interestingly, the Alpha Legion fought without incident with the Luna Wolves, Iron Hands, and Dark Angels. I think a team-up between the pre-heresy Alpha Legion and Dark Angels would be pretty badass since they're both ruthless and coldly efficient.

BrianDavion wrote:

Randomrolls wrote:
Not as lame as one would think. I actually kind of like the way HH books portray Guilliman, like a cross between Sun Tzu and Julius Caesar. If it wasn't for Matt Ward's "Spiritual Liege" comment, there would be a whole lot more love for the guy. The only thing I would think kind of throws a wrench in the plan is the recent and utterly dogmatic reliance on the Codex (I'm still wondering how that exactly works, because if the codex astartes reads anything like the Art of War than adaptability and versatility should should be about the only thing they really "adhere" to). But if we took the ultrasmurfs back to the days of the Great Crusade, then I would totally agree: They'd be pretty much unstoppable together.

the most recent source outright says the codex is all about adaptability and flexability, however the codex ALSO says how a space marine chapter should be orginized etc. and THAT is where I see the Ultramarines likely being, for the most part, inflexable. the codex says "the first company contains the veterans, whom shalt be the ones allowed to sue terminator armor, companies 2 through 5 shalt be battle companies, companies 6 and 7 shall be reserve tatical companies with company 8 a reserve tatical and company 9 a reserve devestator, company ten shalt doth be the scout company. each of these comp;anies will have the following units in them.... in addition the chapter shalt maintain a Librarius, an armory a reclusiarium, and a command staff, that shalt be orginized like so.."

this is why the blood angels, for example would be deemed non-codex compl;iant, the codex does not make mention of a seperate special formation for those suffering from the black rage.

hence the Ultramarines being inflexable would refuse say... to repurpose one of their reserve tatical companies as a battle company, ever, no matter how much they might need it. this also explains why the Tyranid war veterns was such a controversy. it's a formation not supported by the codex.

That clears up an awful lot. Black Library is notoriously spotty when it comes to fluff inconsistencies. That said, they're actually better than some other franchises (Star Wars comes to mind, you wouldn't believe how much those books managed to contradict one another).

Kurze, Corax and Alpharius.

Those three alone could take over a modern city in three nights.

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 Xathrodox86 wrote:
I'm assuming that they'd restraint themselves a bit with the whole "collateral" damage thingie. That's what this cooperation would be about after all.

Also didn't the XXth actually treated their human servants/operatives as equals, when it came to operational matters? You know, like they've used to cooridnate plans before battle, and everyone had a chance to speak their mind? If I recall correctly, that's what pissed Guilliman off so much, when it came to Alphas. At least it was one of the things that irked him about them.

The Alpha Legion wouldn't restrain themselves because their entire philosophy on war is to utilize and maximize every single advantage they have. They treated their human operatives as valuable resources not to be wasted - there's a big difference between being used effectively and being treated as equals.

The two legions only look similar on the surface. The reason the Alpha Legion pissed Guilliman off is because they focused so much on achieving the most operationally perfect victories they lost sight of the bigger picture (what the objective was in the first place).

One of the examples (or the example) from that Guilliman/Alpharius story was, when told to take the enemy capital on Tesstra Prime, instead of just doing so, they allowed the enemy to dig in just so they could expertly take the defences apart. They then spent a long time setting up a plan that caused 90% casualties for the defenders while taking few or no casualties themselves. When asked by Guilliman why he did this, Alpharius replied: "It would have been too easy." That's why they disagreed - needless complication for a challenge rather than focusing on achieving the overall strategic goal.

Interestingly, the Alpha Legion fought without incident with the Luna Wolves, Iron Hands, and Dark Angels. I think a team-up between the pre-heresy Alpha Legion and Dark Angels would be pretty badass since they're both ruthless and coldly efficient.

My understanding was they only started to get into the whole ignoring objectives for the sake of a nice plan thing after Girlyman criticised them and bragged about how the Smurfs were so much better due to their record.

pm713 wrote:
My understanding was they only started to get into the whole ignoring objectives for the sake of a nice plan thing after Girlyman criticised them and bragged about how the Smurfs were so much better due to their record.

True, the Tesstra Compliance happened after initial disagreements with Guilliman. Been a while since I read that story. Also the 90% figure was for the city's population, not just the military! I'm guessing the Raven Guard would have a serious problem with that.

But apparently they also had problems with other legions because of their pride and insular nature, including the Imperial Fists, Ultramarines, Death Guard, and Night Lords (while also being shunned by the Thousand Sons). That's a pretty long list!

edit: gah can't type today

Deathwatch led by the Ordo Xenos. They areally selected from the top skilled warriors from all the chapters for the purpose of ending xeno threats.

Just a single squad of elite Alpha Legion causing complete chaos over an entire army.

An allegiance between Blood Angels and Space Wolves, one is (until the red thirst kicks in) reserved and dignified while the other is a furry explosion of axes. Both are similar, but the difference is critical and rather hilarious.

If only I could field an entire army of just Ork fliers led by a superheavy mega-bomber with a big mek in it.

Steel Legion and Crimson Fists would be a dynamic Ork killing duo!

As for my personal dream, I would love to see what sort of sinister trickery the Prodigal Sons and Alpha Legion could pull off working together. Maybe even trick each other...

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Ultramarines and Space Wolves. Reasons being:

1. They would ake a great comedic duo.

2. Their combined levels of plot army and marry sue status would overwhelm any foe.

Honestly I've always thought it was shocking there wasn't a "Ultramarines meet the space wolves" story. there's so much potential for tossing the ultimate exemplars of the codex in the same mix as a chapter that doesn't care about it, an d how they interacted.

I see them interac ting in sort of a "deep respect, covered by good natured rivalry" sort of a "nicely done done there... for a space wolf!" "high praise considering I didn't follow that little book you cling too" *followed by space wolf and ultramarine swigging a beer together and swapping stories*

Minotaurs and Carcharodons.

For when you really need to make an example of something.

EngulfedObject wrote:

 Xathrodox86 wrote:
I'm assuming that they'd restraint themselves a bit with the whole "collateral" damage thingie. That's what this cooperation would be about after all.

Also didn't the XXth actually treated their human servants/operatives as equals, when it came to operational matters? You know, like they've used to cooridnate plans before battle, and everyone had a chance to speak their mind? If I recall correctly, that's what pissed Guilliman off so much, when it came to Alphas. At least it was one of the things that irked him about them.

The Alpha Legion wouldn't restrain themselves because their entire philosophy on war is to utilize and maximize every single advantage they have. They treated their human operatives as valuable resources not to be wasted - there's a big difference between being used effectively and being treated as equals.

The two legions only look similar on the surface. The reason the Alpha Legion pissed Guilliman off is because they focused so much on achieving the most operationally perfect victories they lost sight of the bigger picture (what the objective was in the first place).

One of the examples (or the example) from that Guilliman/Alpharius story was, when told to take the enemy capital on Tesstra Prime, instead of just doing so, they allowed the enemy to dig in just so they could expertly take the defences apart. They then spent a long time setting up a plan that caused 90% casualties for the defenders while taking few or no casualties themselves. When asked by Guilliman why he did this, Alpharius replied: "It would have been too easy." That's why they disagreed - needless complication for a challenge rather than focusing on achieving the overall strategic goal.

Interestingly, the Alpha Legion fought without incident with the Luna Wolves, Iron Hands, and Dark Angels. I think a team-up between the pre-heresy Alpha Legion and Dark Angels would be pretty badass since they're both ruthless and coldly efficient.

Ah yes, and after that it was summarized that the remaining population would not survive anyway, because of famine and disease. Also the planet's infrastructure went to hell, so the Imperium inherited practically a lifeless rock.

EngulfedObject wrote:

pm713 wrote:
My understanding was they only started to get into the whole ignoring objectives for the sake of a nice plan thing after Girlyman criticised them and bragged about how the Smurfs were so much better due to their record.

True, the Tesstra Compliance happened after initial disagreements with Guilliman. Been a while since I read that story. Also the 90% figure was for the city's population, not just the military! I'm guessing the Raven Guard would have a serious problem with that.

But apparently they also had problems with other legions because of their pride and insular nature, including the Imperial Fists, Ultramarines, Death Guard, and Night Lords (while also being shunned by the Thousand Sons). That's a pretty long list!

edit: gah can't type today

Corax would definetly not like that! The reason why Alpha's did what they did, was the need to prove themselves as efficent, despite being a latecomers to the party. That and the need to create most convoluted plans imaginable. Most of the Legions did not trust the XXth. Thousand Sons for obvious reasons (they could find out about their secrets), but even the Night Lords thought that the Alpha Legion were a bunch of liars.

That really says something.