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I've only recently become a nid player and only have a small army but through extensive reading of various forums I've come to the conclusion that Tyranids are lacking in sufficient options to compete outside of spamming flying hive tyrants with TLBLDVs so I was wondering if these ideas would help fix that problem.

Firstly the creation of the category monstrous beast, basically a combination of beast movement rules and the rules for monstrous creatures. I would put the Haruspex into this category.
Secondly I'd buff the hell out of the Haruspex, the Pyrovore and the Malceptor.

I'd buff the Haruspex up too WS5 and base FNP in addition to its status as a monstrous beast. Secondly I'd change the rules for the Grasping Tongue attack and have it so that if it hits you get to choose what gets grabbed not just on rolls of six. Along with at least an additional three attacks to its profile

For the Pyrovore I'd make it a counter to bike style armies that rely on jink. I'd make them Beasts and buff their toughness to toughness 5 and change the volatile explosion rule to centering a large blast on the model and having it deal a strength six AP 3 ignores cover hit to all units under it, with the caveat that it is triggered upon death at the choice of the nid player and that pyrovores themselves are immune to it. Basically the hive mind ordering the Pyrovore to bust the sacs containing the fuel for its flamethrower when the Pyrovore dies. Finally giving them three attacks in their profile with AP 2 being granted by their Acid Maw extending to these attacks instead of having to trade them.

And for the Malceptor basically turn it into what its supposed to be, the best Tyranid pysker. I'd make it ML 3 base and when it cast the Nid's psychic powers it'd give buffed version of these powers
Catalyst would provide a 4+ FNP when cast by the Malceptor.
The Horror would have a -4 to leadership instead of a -2
Onslaught would add 3 inches to the run distance of models in that shooting phase before they shot.
Paroxysm would keep the -d3 to WS/BS + 1 and extend this effect to initiative as well.
Psychic Scream would have a range of 12 inches and like the horror it would have a -4 to leadership
Warp Blast would become an Assault 4 lance or blast.
In addition to these buffs I'd give it the Zoanthrope's 3++

Now some more minor upgrades
I'd add an upgrade to Tyrant Guard called Royal Tyrant Guard which are Swarmlord exclusive Tyrant Guard for an increase in 10 points of cost they'd get an additional wound, a 2+ save and strength 6 base. I understand that thats a big upgrade for the rather marginal points increase but bare in mind that they can only be taken with the Swarmlord who is ridiculously over costed.

For the Exocrine I'd add +2 shots to its bio plasmic cannon and add 12 inches to its range and buff it to BS4 base and have the bonus for staying still increase to BS5.

I'd change the Venom Cannons and have them swap their blast profiles to assault 2.

Any criticisms?

Some nice ideas.

I have always thought it very silly that Tyranids only have a single Beast unit available to them. Given the theme of the army, you would expect them to have lots of beasts.
More beasts would indeed help to fix some of the mobility problems the army has. Many editions ago they were one of the fastest armies in the game. Now, outside of their FMCs, they're one of the slowest.

Yeah I personally think that its terribly silly that we as a community can come up with better ideas than GW when it comes to balancing armies against each other. I really do think that these changes would be easy to make too in the Eighth Edition Codex. Wouldn't even require a model change just some different ink on paper.

I think all m/c should be +1T at least. I am a guard player and being able to wipe out every m/c nids have with my basic lasgun is terrible.
The bigger m/c's should have a 2+ save and at least a 4++ save and it will not die as standard. As they are supposed to be able to take a beating and still rip squads apart.

I've been working on redoing Tyranids for my own games. I've mostly been working on the smaller bugs - gants, gaunts and the like. I've enclosed what I've done so far (a work in progress) - there's been some points modifications on the units, but I haven't really analysed how all the overall army changes would affect unit points.

Highlights: smaller nids gain Devouring Horde to give some Anti-vehicle capability. More atacks to melee 'nids. Synapse provides benefits, no downsides (reduced out-of-synapse WS and BS to compensate). Created a variant Tervigon/tyrannofex called a Scythadon (melee badass, transport capacity replaced with a chainsaw-like chest attack). Warriors can take Brotherhood of Psykers. New biomorph options reminicent of old mutation abilities.

Changes I'm still planning to make: Tervigons act as a Deep Strike node for gants & gaunts. Remove synaptic backlash on Tervigon. I'm also considering your suggested modifications as well.

I would defiantly NOT make monstrous creatures beasts. a unit should not be fast, though and hard hitting on the same time.


Stormonu's version, with beast gaunts, is more like what I'd think is right. (didn't read through, just fliped a bit) the MCs should be support units and "command nodes" of an army that revolves around a swarm of little buggers that ruin your days, not a band of giants that are followed around by a few gribblets.

Not a fan of "devouring horde" tough. both overcomplicated, and recreates the same necron issue of "basic infantry are a threat to everything".
Tanks SHOULD be an answer to the horde (metal bawkses? the cowards! the feuols!), and the big boys should be can openers to let the horde get to the juicy troopers inside.

I'd also keep the "loss of synaps-loss of control" aspect of it. it's thematically cool, and allows you to do some stuff. but I'd do it as a more rational than GW one. no tables, each "type" of behavior has one specific, reasonable goal (so "feed" move towards and charge at nearest unit, "stalk" seek cover, and if they are in one start shooting on nearest target, etc)

Boom Wolf I was referring only to the Haruspex I believe your statement is correct however I only applied that change to something I pictured the Hive mind using as a heavy shock unit. Something you throw at the enemy when the normal bugs are not cutting it. And rather than make a new model I simply repurposed that wasn't being used by anybody outside of very casual lists.

Why are you handing out FNP like it were candy?

What reason does Haruspex have to get FNP?
Why should the Maleceptor get better versions of all the Tyranid psyker powers?

These aren't addressing game balance issue, these are just "Buff my faction cause its my favorite" suggestions.

The big problem with synapse is the bubble effect - you can't spead out very far so things tend to lump up for blasts and such, and it neuters Fast attack options unless you burn the points for a special synapse unit to keep up. Finally, synapse units become big juicy targets; kill the synapse unit(s) and the rest of the army runs away or is useless - fluffy, but not much fun in a pratical game.

If the self-devouring rules went away from instinctual behavior it might be tolerable if it hampered actions somewhat, but with GW's rules as-is, you might as well quit the game as soon as all your synapse is dead (and they're not hard to kill at all these days).

However, I completely disagree with MCs being the only canopeners in the army. With the proliferation of vehicles in current 40K, there is no sense for ANY unit not having at least an *option* that allows them to take on vehicles - and that was what Devouring Horde was meant to provide (as well as Penetration Rifle)..

The Haruspex would get FNP and if I recall it was the only one I gave FNP, because of its immense digestive speed. It would be replacing injured parts so fast that it wouldn't really notice nonlethal injuries. The Maleceptor would get better versions of the Tyranid Psychic powers because it has always been described as a the strongest node of the Hive Mind's power and because we don't get access to the BRB powers I thought that that was a better way to represent it.

Also Orks are my favorite faction. Nids outside of Penta Hive Tyrant with wings TWLBLDs suck.

I have in my spare time also come up with rules that would fix or at least patch some of the more stupid stuff in the BRB such as things like ordinance weapons causing two wounds for every unsaved wound they inflict i.e. a Leman Russ shooting a Carnifex and hitting it, and wounding it would remove 2 wounds instead of one. All of that without causing its other weapons to snapfire. Secondly by allowing certain units to assault from Deepstrike like Warp Talons, all strips of Terminators and a few other units, but at the cost of taking full BS overwatch if the unit passes an initiative test.

I nerfed grav and changed the Riptide to a walker with AV 13/12/11 and four hull points. I don't want a I win button for Tyranids but I don't want to basically just be cannon fodder for some one else's Space Marine Superfriends or a couple of Wraith Guard with D flamers. I don't mind losing even half the games I play. What bugs me is when a faction or factions are shoehorned into one specific build and outside of it they are simply ineffective. I'd rather that than watching bs like Eldar D weapons spam, invisible Deathstars and super jinking bikes dominating everything. I'd prefer to see anti tank weapons like a vanquisher cannon or Hammer Head Rail gun killing tanks instead of being glanced to death by scatter lasers.

Personally have you ever seen a Maleceptor or a Haruspex or a Pyrovore or the Swarmlord in a serious game? That's why I gave them buffs. Hell I'll probably end up nerfing the Flying Hive Tyrant's weapon of choice into the infantry grinder it should be not the band aid it currently is but that requires the wound caused by GW's sales department controlling its rule designing team.

rrll wrote:
Why are you handing out FNP like it were candy?

What reason does Haruspex have to get FNP?
Why should the Maleceptor get better versions of all the Tyranid psyker powers?

These aren't addressing game balance issue, these are just "Buff my faction cause its my favorite" suggestions.

My opinion, but FNP does really seem like the flavor-of-the-week to give armies these days (arguable everyone can find a way to justify it except those pansy Eldar - sans the masochistic Dark Eldar), and it seems to be to answer the issue of t-shirt saves and AP 1 / 2 weapons. Everyone wants more durable units, and since its hard to justify Invulnerable saves for Nids, FNP is a shortcut method to gain the same effect in a fluffy way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On the Maleceptor, rather than boosting the standard psychic powers, why not give it bonus dice for using powers (say +1 or +2 warp charges) and/or give it one unique (or always available) power? Customizing the rules for this unit's use is just more look-up, rule tweaking and remembering when there's easier ways to make it "best psyker".

Or maybe...

Twin Mind: A Maleceptor may use the same psychic power twice per turn, instead of the standard once per turn.

FNP makes more sense for nids than it does for a lot of other units, but it should really be more of a blanket rule encompassing all or most nids, and system wide FNP is a HUGE buff, moreso than setting orks base Strength to 4. Plus it would be a bitch to add to the codex since you'd have to update every unit individually.

And while I totally agree that pyrovores need a buff, giving them anti-jink makes no sense whatsoever. (If anything, jinking units are probably better adept at avoiding template weapons than ordinary fire) My personal fix was to use the flamestorm cannon profile, give them torrent, increase their T to 5 and up their ppm to 60 w/ an option for an armor upgrade. (I was kind of wavering on whether it should be AP 3 or AP 4, maybe cutting the cost down to 50ppm for AP4) This might seem kind of radical but pyrovores are really an awful unit.

rrll wrote:
Why are you handing out FNP like it were candy?

What reason does Haruspex have to get FNP?
Why should the Maleceptor get better versions of all the Tyranid psyker powers?

These aren't addressing game balance issue, these are just "Buff my faction cause its my favorite" suggestions.

Let's see. Fluff-wise, Tyranid Hive Mind has Hive Fleets create creatures without nociceptor feedback. That's easier to justify, IMO, than many units with FNP. Especially when you consider crunch-wise that many of those units also have access to invulnerable saves, better armour saves, or both. Right now Tyranid MC's are walking piñatas seemingly designed around twelve-year-olds feeling like they're reliving Starship Troopers or whatever generic 'kill the bugs' SciFi is hip these days. Tyranid monster creatures are described, in their fluff and in their rules descriptions, as monstrous and deadly killing machines that can shrug off wounds to end their targets. When's the last time you saw a horde of melee 'Nids and strong MC's getting torn apart by the big guns only to finally reach melee and savage the opponent? I'm not saying that should be the outcome every time but the fact that in an even moderately competitive environment that playstyle is leagues behind flying around with FIVE Hive Tyrands dinking and dunking like a clown suggests to me that there is something critically wrong with the Tyranid army list. Look it over, look at the options, look at what enemies are bringing. We're not even a very good CC army at the moment, because we don't have the biologic analogues to technology that our Codex loves to talk up so very much.

rrll wrote:
FNP makes more sense for nids than it does for a lot of other units, but it should really be more of a blanket rule encompassing all or most nids, and system wide FNP is a HUGE buff, moreso than setting orks base Strength to 4. Plus it would be a bitch to add to the codex since you'd have to update every unit individually.

And while I totally agree that pyrovores need a buff, giving them anti-jink makes no sense whatsoever. (If anything, jinking units are probably better adept at avoiding template weapons than ordinary fire) My personal fix was to use the flamestorm cannon profile, give them torrent, increase their T to 5 and up their ppm to 60 w/ an option for an armor upgrade. (I was kind of wavering on whether it should be AP 3 or AP 4, maybe cutting the cost down to 50ppm for AP4) This might seem kind of radical but pyrovores are really an awful unit.

Seeing this post I think you get the picture. Well said, I can agree with what you wrote here.

 BoomWolf wrote:
I would defiantly NOT make monstrous creatures beasts. a unit should not be fast, though and hard hitting on the same time.

Well TMCs have 1 out of 3 I guess.
They can indeed take a bit of damage. Certainly far less than riptides or eldar wraith MCs, but enough to at least discourage most small arms fire.

Hard hitting though, they are not.
The close combat statline on the average TMC is 1 WS and 1 I higher than a riptide. Same strength and attacks. Worse armour.
Some are better in certain stats, some are worse. But that's the average statline.
Would you consider a riptide without guns hard-hitting?

Something with that slightly-better-than-a-riptide statline is expected to trundle across the table at walking speed and beat up enemies in close combat.
It's called a haruspex.

The tyranid codex has problems.

I made them anti jink mostly because out of all the current models in codex they didn't particularly have a role therefore I made them anti bike which as a rule I despise bike armies, I don't see why they are so good or why someone can't just train an AA gun on them and rake them like confetti with some sort of rapid fire autocannon firing explosive shells.

Therefore I made the Pyrovore one of the worst designed units I could think of into a sort of attack beast to chase them down and burn them to death and if they got into melee or even very close they'd put the hurt onto even SM bikes with the on death large blasts and their AP2 melee from the acid maw. I left them with 4+ because I didn't want to make the next OP bs that things like scatter bikes or Grav bikes are.

Personally I dislike them for the same reason I dislike invisibility, why wouldn't you just use a blast weapon or flamer thrower on them. I'd be really impressed to see a bike or even a jet bike dodge a demolisher cannon shell if it went off near them. I remember hearing about some sort of forge world unit ignoring jink I was sort of inspired.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Those ideas for the malceptor seem better than what I had in mind. Less book keeping is good.

It just seemed like such a steaming pile of crap though, and when I saw the model I was impressed then I saw the rules. What do you guys think about it being a ML3 psyker and the same Warp field as the Zoanthrope?

Arson Fire wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
I would defiantly NOT make monstrous creatures beasts. a unit should not be fast, though and hard hitting on the same time.

Well TMCs have 1 out of 3 I guess.
They can indeed take a bit of damage. Certainly far less than riptides or eldar wraith MCs, but enough to at least discourage most small arms fire.

Hard hitting though, they are not.
The close combat statline on the average TMC is 1 WS and 1 I higher than a riptide. Same strength and attacks. Worse armour.
Some are better in certain stats, some are worse. But that's the average statline.
Would you consider a riptide without guns hard-hitting?

Something with that slightly-better-than-a-riptide statline is expected to trundle across the table at walking speed and beat up enemies in close combat.
It's called a haruspex.

The tyranid codex has problems.

Yeah, the slow march up the board is a real problem that is at odds with fluff and ruins Tyranid crunch. With the importance of shooting in 7thE it's rare enough for Walkrants and Krumpfexes to get to the enemy in the first place, only to be absolutely punked by anything even remotely designed for melee that isn't IG/SoB. We're a CC army with no grenades, very few options to enhance survivability, limited 'power weapon' type attacks compared to other Codices, a supplemental Synapse creature that used to be great in CC but is now a points-hoover (Warriors), and extremely limited mobility options. There's a reason why competitive lists are a stack of Flyrants and whatever you can throw together for ObSec.

I personally think that our slow march problem could be solved by making more of our Nids beasts. Mainly the ones that ought to be beasts such as our more assault oriented organisms like a Haruspex.

Something like that would be a good start. I'd almost like something army-wide that's more tailored towards the Tyranids as a species. In the same way that Guardsmen sort of personify the concept of 'average dude' and Space Marines do the same for 'elite warrior', so do various Tyranid creatures set the standard for 'monstrous creatures' and 'xenos beasts'.

Overall I still think that the game could be a bit more friendly to melee but our terrible wargear/unit situation isn't helping any either. I want some new beast/monster rules based around Tyranid creatures but I also want a Codex that doesn't basically require you to completely ignore fluff or what you love conceptually about the army to field as many Hong Kong Action Heroes as possible.

Besides a few problem units I think nids mostly need adjustments to their unique rules.

Shadow in the Warp needs to make it so enemies only harness warp charges on a 5-6 instead of 4-6. I would also suggest it reduces the leadership value of effected units by 2, making them more susceptible to failure of leadership tests. This will up the number of charges needed to reliably manifest powers and increase the chances of perils and their negative effects. It's range needs to be tied to synapse. That way relics, powers, and abilities that increase synapse range also increase shadow.

I liked the idea of synapse providing 6+ fnp from those fake rumor rules so long ago. It sounds powerful, but it's not really. It just guarantees that the horde gets a tee shirt save. They will still mostly die in droves but at least now they will get a roll.

The only problem with making the troops beasts is keeping synapse with them. You would need to up the speed of many synapse units otherwise the increased speed is nonsense that still relies on staying in range of synapse units and thus gets capped by their 6" move anyway.

I think Gargoyles should use FMC shooting rules in that they should be able to choose to have skyfire or not when they shoot. We have no native sky fire weapons and only flyers to take out other flyers. Gargs suck atm, but making them an effective anti air swarm would make them much more desirable.

As for hive tyrants, I think you should trim about 30 points off their cost but make wings take up a weapon slot. They can either fly with a little dakka and a template for the second weapon or walk and go full dakka, A walk rant is over costed for its survivalability but flyrants are op. dropping them to 1 pair of tldwblw would balance them a bit.

What benefit would giving Gargoyles FMC shooting rules provide? they'd only be able to glance things like the Ork flyers which aren't really a problem for nids. I could however see the benefit if Shrikes could be given the FMC shooting rules.

Also what do you guys think of changing the Venom Cannon and Heavy Venom Cannon into Heavy 2 weapons and giving the HVC AP3?

You mean give gargoyles the option to use skyfire? Kinda pointless on a unit armed with bolt pistols.
Plus it would be more fluffy to instead give them a rule where they can sacrifice themselves to clog up engine intakes. Damaging flyers in exchange for losing X models in the unit.

Shrikes have slightly better shooting, but it's still only S5 at best.
If you're looking for something to gain skyfire, Hive Guard are the unit that people were speculating might gain it in the lead up to the 6th edition codex. I could see the worthless Shock Cannon 'upgrade' be re-imagined into a sort of electric flak gun.

Venom Cannons were Assault 2 weapons back in 4th edition, before tyranids got cruddaced. I'd be happy to see that again, instead of being a blast weapon.
It's kind of a thing that every single tyranid gun is Assault. I don't see much reason to break theme here.

My bad I meant Assault 2 not Heavy 2. Honestly from how they are described in the fluff it would make more sense for them to be Assault 2 than to be blast weapons.