Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Dreadwinter wrote:
I support these states exercising their rights! STATES RIGHTS! WOOOOOO!

Where is a Ric Flair gif when I need one?!

Here ya go - WOOOOOOOOO!

You shouldn't have to have a good reason to exercise your right. Why do I want to carry a .50 cal handgun under my coat? Because it's my right to defend myself.

 Chef_of_Cadia wrote:
You shouldn't have to have a good reason to exercise your right. Why do I want to carry a .50 cal handgun under my coat?

Because my coat isn't long enough to conceal a Barrett m82.

 Ouze wrote:

 Chef_of_Cadia wrote:
You shouldn't have to have a good reason to exercise your right. Why do I want to carry a .50 cal handgun under my coat?

Because my coat isn't long enough to conceal a Barrett m82.

Have you tried a Trench Coat? I hear you can hide anything in those.

The problem in NJ is that those charged with giving out permits to purchase firearms are not following the Law. And no one is doing anything about it.

They are asking for paperwork that is illegal and are indefinitely prolonging the time it takes to process the application. Legally, it should take no longer than 30 days. Many who wait longer than 90 days resort to filling a complaint with the State, and even then, the process takes forever. Legislators in NJ are not protecting the 2nd Amendment at all.

As far as why have open carry. My view is that if people see others actually bearing arms, the criminals will be less likely to engage. Criminals are cowards. If they see that they can be met with deadly force right off the bat, it may give them pause. If it doesn't, they better be a faster draw. Yes, I'm making a parallel with the Wild West because now, it's worse than that.

Personally, I don't want to live in a society where everyone needs to carry around a gun.

 skyth wrote:
Personally, I don't want to live in a society where everyone needs to carry around a gun.

I don't think anyone "needs" to. The choice should be available given the 2nd Amendment, though.

Mdlbuildr wrote:

As far as why have open carry. My view is that if people see others actually bearing arms, the criminals will be less likely to engage. Criminals are cowards. If they see that they can be met with deadly force right off the bat, it may give them pause. If it doesn't, they better be a faster draw. Yes, I'm making a parallel with the Wild West because now, it's worse than that.

This.

If people are hiding a weapon, it's not to defend themselves. It's to kill someone else with a surprise attack.

Those saying they have the right to hide their weapons to "defend themselves" are huge hypocrits, to me. If they show they are armed, most people would be cautious and not trying to provoke them. That would be the most effective defense; deterrence. If you hide it, this is not possible.

Why would you hide your weapon, anyway? What is the true reason, other than making sure the others people don't know you have it and thus are unaware you can kill/hurt them at any time?

 skyth wrote:
Personally, I don't want to live in a society where everyone needs to carry around a gun.

Personally I don't want to live in a society where the gov't has taken away the choice to carry or not carry from the individual.

 CptJake wrote:

Personally I don't want to live in a society where the gov't has taken away the choice to carry or not carry from the individual.

Oh, but you already have a choice; follow the law or not follow the law.

It's just that you will have to live with the consequences of being a dangerous man for others people who don't have weapons.

 Sarouan wrote:

Mdlbuildr wrote:

As far as why have open carry. My view is that if people see others actually bearing arms, the criminals will be less likely to engage. Criminals are cowards. If they see that they can be met with deadly force right off the bat, it may give them pause. If it doesn't, they better be a faster draw. Yes, I'm making a parallel with the Wild West because now, it's worse than that.

This.

If people are hiding a weapon, it's not to defend themselves. It's to kill someone else with a surprise attack.

Those saying they have the right to hide their weapons to "defend themselves" are huge hypocrits, to me. If they show they are armed, most people would be cautious and not trying to provoke them. That would be the most effective defense; deterrence. If you hide it, this is not possible.

Why would you hide your weapon, anyway? What is the true reason, other than making sure the others people don't know you have it and thus are unaware you can kill/hurt them at any time?

What a crock of doodoo. You conceal for many reasons, and I doubt you'll find folks who legally conceal carry list 'So I can kill someone else in a surprise attack' as one of them. There may be a very few people who believe that, but most of them are folks like you who don't carry.

A major reason to conceal is because it aids in de-escalation of a situation. You have options you can take that are not available once it is known you have a gun. The gun is the last resort.

There are a large number of people who for whatever reason are uncomfortable around guns (unless the guy with the gun also has a badge visible). Concealing allows these people to 'feel' better and unthreatened. Open carry tends to be seen as making a statement, not everyone wants to be making statements, some want to just have good tool to defend themselves and others. Drawing attention to yourself is generally not a good thing. Cops tend to gravitate towards folks who open carry, even where it is perfectly legal (sometimes because some busy body calls them because Guy With Gun!). I for one don't need a cop asking silly questions and wasting my time.

In the very rare case where a violent crime takes place, being unaware of what is going on (crime about to happen) but having an open carried gun makes you an initial target, automatically escalating a situation (again, de-escalation is always the goal). Weapon retention is also a factor. Having a gun visible is having a gun that can be grabbed. Yeah, you can get holsters which mitigate against this, but why bother when you can conceal and avoid the issue?

So, no, 'wanting to kill someone in a surprise attack' does not factor into the decision to conceal for the very vast majority of folks who do so.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sarouan wrote:

 CptJake wrote:

Personally I don't want to live in a society where the gov't has taken away the choice to carry or not carry from the individual.

Oh, but you already have a choice; follow the law or not follow the law.

It's just that you will have to live with the consequences of being a dangerous man for others people who don't have weapons.

I do have the choice to follow the law or not. And currently laws are not supposed to infringe on my constitutionally protected right under the 2nd Amendment.

I have ZERO issues living with the fact folks like you may consider me a 'dangerous man' because they choose to be unarmed and I don't. The very vast majority of legal gun owners never seek to threaten another person.

 CptJake wrote:

 skyth wrote:
Personally, I don't want to live in a society where everyone needs to carry around a gun.

Personally I don't want to live in a society where the gov't has taken away the choice to carry or not carry from the individual.

Concealed carry you can have it both ways. Open carry makes me not want to disagree with someone. It stiffles free speech. Especially since all the bullies that carry guns openly to make a scene.

If I don't know you have a gun...I'll treat you the same as anyone else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CptJake wrote:

 skyth wrote:
Personally, I don't want to live in a society where everyone needs to carry around a gun.

Personally I don't want to live in a society where the gov't has taken away the choice to carry or not carry from the individual.

Concealed carry you can have it both ways. Open carry makes me not want to disagree with someone. It stiffles free speech. Especially since all the bullies that carry guns openly to make a scene.

If I don't know you have a gun...I'll treat you the same as anyone else.

 CptJake wrote:
A major reason to conceal is because it aids in de-escalation of a situation. You have options you can take that are not available once it is known you have a gun. In the very rare case where a violent crime takes place, being unaware of what is going on (crime about to happen) but having an open carried gun makes you an initial target, automatically escalating a situation (again, de-escalation is always the goal). Weapon retention is also a factor. Having a gun visible is having a gun that can be grabbed.

These are very good points for concealed carry IMO. It's pretty much the same reason I generally never strap on a huge equipment belt with gas, handcuffs, nightstick and various pouches for my crappy security job. Otherwise reasonable people might get funny ideas and escalate a perfectly calm situation if they see all that stuff. Besides, guns are worth money. Thieves that snatch purses, cameras and phones right out of your hands might decide to snatch a gun too. I'd actually call it irresponsible to walk about with a visible gun in some places.

In a society where guns are usually legal and readily available concealed carry seems like the best compromise. The gun owner has his last resort hidden and it doesn't disturb or tempt others.

I lived in a liberal city, Seattle, and open carry was just an invitation for leftists to harass you by walking over to you and lecturing you on whichever anti-gun topic they choose at that moment. Carry concealed and those idiots never know. Not having to deal with that stress is worth the price of a permit.

Captjake nailed it. I conceal carry because I don't want people knowing I have a gun. For the reasons already mentioned. His comment shows he has no trianing/experience.

I'm seeing why some people want concealed carry but I'm not seeing much that convincingly argues that peoples desire for hidden weapons makes it a Constitutional right to hide them.

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 Ouze wrote:

 Chef_of_Cadia wrote:
You shouldn't have to have a good reason to exercise your right. Why do I want to carry a .50 cal handgun under my coat?

Because my coat isn't long enough to conceal a Barrett m82.

Have you tried a Trench Coat? I hear you can hide anything in those.

wear a cape, no one is freaked out by the guy in a cape carring a fire arm.

 Ahtman wrote:
I'm seeing why some people want concealed carry but I'm not seeing much that convincingly argues that peoples desire for hidden weapons makes it a Constitutional right to hide them.

The Second doesn't specify the manner of bearing arms one way or the other. We shouldn't have to justify open or concealed carry, either should be an option for the individual to decide for themselves.

 Ahtman wrote:
I'm seeing why some people want concealed carry but I'm not seeing much that convincingly argues that peoples desire for hidden weapons makes it a Constitutional right to hide them.

In this topic, we're discussing how since CA bars open carry, when they also put an effective bar to concealed carry it seems to infringe on exercising the right guaranteed by the 2nd Amendment. No carry, concealed or open, does seem to indicate in CA the right to bear arms is being infringed upon. We'll see if this gets appealed and what SCOTUS does with it. The ruling seems pretty narrow which is both good and bad.

I guess when it comes down to it, I honestly don't see how or why I choose to carry should make a difference. If I can legally own a handgun I personally feel I should be able to carry it as I see fit. In my case, that would mean concealed for the reasons I've given.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 skyth wrote:

 CptJake wrote:

 skyth wrote:
Personally, I don't want to live in a society where everyone needs to carry around a gun.

Personally I don't want to live in a society where the gov't has taken away the choice to carry or not carry from the individual.

Concealed carry you can have it both ways. Open carry makes me not want to disagree with someone. It stiffles free speech. Especially since all the bullies that carry guns openly to make a scene.

If I don't know you have a gun...I'll treat you the same as anyone else.

Open carry does not act as a stifle to free speech. That is just silly. You self stifle out of some weird fear that a gun owner legally carrying would murder you over a disagreement, which frankly is a ridiculous fear. Unless you are implying you like to physically assault someone as a way to exercise your 1st Amendment rights and are scared to do so if your victim is armed. Somehow I doubt that is the case. People open carrying are not necessarily bullies and don't necessarily 'make a scene'. It is just as likely (as others have mentioned) that others approaching the guy legally openly carrying act the bully and make a scene.

 Ahtman wrote:
I'm seeing why some people want concealed carry but I'm not seeing much that convincingly argues that peoples desire for hidden weapons makes it a Constitutional right to hide them.

Assuming that the gun is being used in a proper lawful fashion what does it matter if it's concealed or not? If the owner isn't shooting anyone or engaging in other criminal acts it is there any significant reason why they shouldn't be able to be carry it concealed?

Nostromodamus wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:
I'm seeing why some people want concealed carry but I'm not seeing much that convincingly argues that peoples desire for hidden weapons makes it a Constitutional right to hide them.

The Second doesn't specify the manner of bearing arms one way or the other. We shouldn't have to justify open or concealed carry, either should be an option for the individual to decide for themselves.

That doesn't really answer the question of whether it is Constitutional though, it just says that one feels it doesn't say anything about it. It could go either way really as it not saying anything could just as easily mean that there is no right to concealed.

stanman wrote:Assuming that the gun is being used in a proper lawful fashion what does it matter if it's concealed or not? If the owner isn't shooting anyone or engaging in other criminal acts it is there any significant reason why they shouldn't be able to be carry it concealed?

Why should they? There is nothing saying there is a right to hide a weapon on your person in the Constitution.

@CptJake: If it people kept it about CA then I might agree with you but much of what has been said seems parenthetical, if we are being generous. I don't have an issue with firearms I just haven't seen much of an argument that the Second Amendment covers concealed carry. Obliviously there is a problem when a state won't allow either open or concealed carry as there isn't really any kind of other option for carrying. At that point it is a Constitutional problem.

 CptJake wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:
I'm seeing why some people want concealed carry but I'm not seeing much that convincingly argues that peoples desire for hidden weapons makes it a Constitutional right to hide them.

In this topic, we're discussing how since CA bars open carry, when they also put an effective bar to concealed carry it seems to infringe on exercising the right guaranteed by the 2nd Amendment. No carry, concealed or open, does seem to indicate in CA the right to bear arms is being infringed upon. We'll see if this gets appealed and what SCOTUS does with it. The ruling seems pretty narrow which is both good and bad.

I guess when it comes down to it, I honestly don't see how or why I choose to carry should make a difference. If I can legally own a handgun I personally feel I should be able to carry it as I see fit. In my case, that would mean concealed for the reasons I've given.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 skyth wrote:

 CptJake wrote:

 skyth wrote:
Personally, I don't want to live in a society where everyone needs to carry around a gun.

Personally I don't want to live in a society where the gov't has taken away the choice to carry or not carry from the individual.

Concealed carry you can have it both ways. Open carry makes me not want to disagree with someone. It stiffles free speech. Especially since all the bullies that carry guns openly to make a scene.

If I don't know you have a gun...I'll treat you the same as anyone else.

Open carry does not act as a stifle to free speech. That is just silly. You self stifle out of some weird fear that a gun owner legally carrying would murder you over a disagreement, which frankly is a ridiculous fear. Unless you are implying you like to physically assault someone as a way to exercise your 1st Amendment rights and are scared to do so if your victim is armed. Somehow I doubt that is the case. People open carrying are not necessarily bullies and don't necessarily 'make a scene'. It is just as likely (as others have mentioned) that others approaching the guy legally openly carrying act the bully and make a scene.

Self stiffling due to fear is still stiffling free speech.

When I was talking about bullies I was talking about the ones making a scene about open carrying. I know not all gun owners are like that but you can't act like they don't exist.

 Ahtman wrote:

Nostromodamus wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:
I'm seeing why some people want concealed carry but I'm not seeing much that convincingly argues that peoples desire for hidden weapons makes it a Constitutional right to hide them.

The Second doesn't specify the manner of bearing arms one way or the other. We shouldn't have to justify open or concealed carry, either should be an option for the individual to decide for themselves.

That doesn't really answer the question of whether it is Constitutional though, it just says that one feels it doesn't say anything about it. It could go either way really as it not saying anything could just as easily mean that there is no right to concealed.

The BoR tells the federal government what it cannot do. In this case, it is infringe on the right to bear arms. By not specifying the manner of bearing arms or making exceptions, it is allowing the individual to decide for themselves.

The individuals decide by voting for the people that make laws and who appoint the courts that decide if such laws are constitutional.

Long live the republic!

 skyth wrote:

Self stiffling due to fear is still stiffling free speech.

When I was talking about bullies I was talking about the ones making a scene about open carrying. I know not all gun owners are like that but you can't act like they don't exist.

Your choice to self stifle is on you, not on anyone else. Your inability to treat people 'as anyone else' or however you phrased it is not reason to infringe on the rights of 'anyone else'.

And you're right, I have seen folks make a scene about open carry, they were not the ones carrying though. They were folks who felt they should be able to inflict their will on others.

 Nostromodamus wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:
I'm seeing why some people want concealed carry but I'm not seeing much that convincingly argues that peoples desire for hidden weapons makes it a Constitutional right to hide them.

The Second doesn't specify the manner of bearing arms one way or the other. We shouldn't have to justify open or concealed carry, either should be an option for the individual to decide for themselves.

I'm glad that my state shares this view.

 Nostromodamus wrote:
The BoR tells the federal government what it cannot do. In this case, it is infringe on the right to bear arms. By not specifying the manner of bearing arms or making exceptions, it is allowing the individual to decide for themselves.

Except saying "the BoR says you can't infringe on the right to bear arms" is saying nothing. In the real world the government can and does infringe on that right. You can't carry concealed nuclear weapons, you can't carry a gun of any kind if you're a convicted felon, you can't carry a fully automatic weapon without the appropriate federal permit (and the state can deny it entirely), etc. The carrying of weapons in public is indisputably something that the government can regulate, the only question here is what regulations are appropriate.

Just trying to explain to Ahtman why some of us believe it to be constitutionally protected. Of course the government can do what it wants regardless, and has been for decades.

 Nostromodamus wrote:
Just trying to explain to Ahtman why some of us believe it to be constitutionally protected. Of course the government can do what it wants regardless, and has been for decades.

But at some point your belief that it is "constitutionally protected" ceases to match reality. The supreme court, the people who decide if something is constitutional or not, has only overturned a small number of the most extreme gun control laws, and has had no problem with letting states restrict concealed handguns.

Mdlbuildr wrote:
As far as why have open carry. My view is that if people see others actually bearing arms, the criminals will be less likely to engage. Criminals are cowards. If they see that they can be met with deadly force right off the bat, it may give them pause.

Alternately, if you open carry, then someone planning a crime is going to give it to you first. Then they score whatever they wanted, as well as a firearm.

Open carry is legal in my state, and I'm glad it is, but I would never do it. I carry concealed.

 Ahtman wrote:
I'm seeing why some people want concealed carry but I'm not seeing much that convincingly argues that peoples desire for hidden weapons makes it a Constitutional right to hide them.

I don't there is one. I don't believe there is a second amendment right to concealed carry.