Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

1. End of story.

We agreed to an X points game, not an X+a bit points game.

If you allow any points over that, why not allow the same number of points over that limit, then the same number of points over that limit, etc.

 kronk wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
If it's under 5 points over, I could care less.

Be wary, as there's a lot of people on this website who will equate going 1 point over with literally being Satan.

Could care less means you care some!

If you were a point over, I wouldn't call you Satan. There are all manner of lesser imps and demons, jrelly89, but the great Satan hisself is red and scaly with a bifurcated tail, and he carries a hay fork. He probably plays Magic: the Gathering, anyway.

For the OP, if you agreed to a point limit, play up to, but not over that limit.

If you want the extra 5 points, then call the other players before hand, and don't wait until the day of. Give them the same opportunity to think about their list that you're assuming for yourself.

Damnit Kronk, I'm a doctor, not an english major!

I like the New Trek's Bones, better.

There. I said it!

I'm one of those, "if 10 points over don't matter then 10 points under shouldn't matter to you either". That said, I am not one to nitpick and I won't force that belief on others.

If someone comes to me and asks me if I'm okay with 10 points over I tell them: "I'd rather you not go over the points limit, but if that's how you want to play your army I won't stop you."

I'm a CSM player and it's not the 10 extra points my opponent brings that's going to make me lose.

DaPino wrote:
I'm one of those, "if 10 points over don't matter then 10 points under shouldn't matter to you either". That said, I am not one to nitpick and I won't force that belief on others.

If someone comes to me and asks me if I'm okay with 10 points over I tell them: "I'd rather you not go over the points limit, but if that's how you want to play your army I won't stop you."

I'm a CSM player and it's not the 10 extra points my opponent brings that's going to make me lose.

It would if the ten points were spent upgrading a power sword to a power fist and it was used to kill your warlord, thus turning a draw into a loss.


You agreed to a specific point, so no points over.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
Of course, 1 point over is too far, it is the limit, after all. BUT, there is absolutely nothing wrong with asking your opponent about it anyway as long as you are completely willing to accept their answer without complaint or comment.

This.

If you want to play a 2003 points game, that is 100% fine, give me five minutes and I will change my army list a bit.

Anything over 0 points is too much.

Points limits exist for a reason.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
This is not Nam, this is 40k. There are rules.

Donny, these men are nihilists. There's nothing to be afraid of.

Your laziness in list building is not my problem. You don't go over, period.

Regarding keeping track of which squad has a Melta Bomb and which doesn't, use a counter or something. It's THAT easy, folks.

I'm happy to be flexable, on the other hand it also depends on your army and list. a space marine taking a Gladius battle company (and thus is getting free transports) has ZERO sympathy, he plays at or under ther points agreement. an eldar spamming Wraithknightsyet again should be held to the points list HARD. (WKs being universally agreed to be under costed) a guy running Chaos Marines however? meh an extra 3 points isn't gonna mean much

 welshhoppo wrote:

DaPino wrote:
I'm one of those, "if 10 points over don't matter then 10 points under shouldn't matter to you either". That said, I am not one to nitpick and I won't force that belief on others.

If someone comes to me and asks me if I'm okay with 10 points over I tell them: "I'd rather you not go over the points limit, but if that's how you want to play your army I won't stop you."

I'm a CSM player and it's not the 10 extra points my opponent brings that's going to make me lose.

It would if the ten points were spent upgrading a power sword to a power fist and it was used to kill your warlord, thus turning a draw into a loss.


You agreed to a specific point, so no points over.

What if those ten points under prevented him from turning a power sword into a power fist, and he thus was able to deal the last wound to your Warlord instead of not being able to go at all (due to the Warlord killing him before I1), turning a draw into a loss anyway?

I'm dirty and include up to 11 points over at my worst though ususally I'm around 3-6 points because I find having everything be idenacle is worth more than going 3-6 points over. God forbid you and your opponent need to keep count of which broadside has skyfire and which one doesn't, of which crisis squad has only 2 guys with interceptor. That being said I'd never pull this shtick in a Tournie.

I know I'm evil tho, and this is me being lazy, but whatever.

There definitely are some strong hard viewpoints on this from what I've read.

In my personal experience, I agree with a post above that stated its fine, provided there is no 3 point upgrade you can remove to level the limit.

If my opponent approaches me and says hey man, im at 1003 but the closest thing I can do is drop a marine at 13(or whatever) points , ill be completely fine with it.

But if I find out he had 1000 points then intentionally purchased a 3 point upgrade, that's where I get iffy.

If you literally will sell your army short by a noticeable amount then by all means go ahead, but if its a matter of greed wanting extra, nope.

I have before approached my opponent and explained I was 2 points over, nearest upgrade I could remove was 8 pts, and he was completely fine with it, and so I asked him if he had anything he wanted to add ( as he was slightly under by like 2 or 3 points ).

Every person is different and should certainly be discussed with, but ultimately the points limit is a set limit which the other player has every right to demand it is met or under (Strictly speaking).

 Pouncey wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:

DaPino wrote:
I'm one of those, "if 10 points over don't matter then 10 points under shouldn't matter to you either". That said, I am not one to nitpick and I won't force that belief on others.

If someone comes to me and asks me if I'm okay with 10 points over I tell them: "I'd rather you not go over the points limit, but if that's how you want to play your army I won't stop you."

I'm a CSM player and it's not the 10 extra points my opponent brings that's going to make me lose.

It would if the ten points were spent upgrading a power sword to a power fist and it was used to kill your warlord, thus turning a draw into a loss.


You agreed to a specific point, so no points over.

What if those ten points under prevented him from turning a power sword into a power fist, and he thus was able to deal the last wound to your Warlord instead of not being able to go at all (due to the Warlord killing him before I1), turning a draw into a loss anyway?

What if they failed a charge by one inch, turning a draw into a loss?

 Bookwrack wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:

DaPino wrote:
I'm one of those, "if 10 points over don't matter then 10 points under shouldn't matter to you either". That said, I am not one to nitpick and I won't force that belief on others.

If someone comes to me and asks me if I'm okay with 10 points over I tell them: "I'd rather you not go over the points limit, but if that's how you want to play your army I won't stop you."

I'm a CSM player and it's not the 10 extra points my opponent brings that's going to make me lose.

It would if the ten points were spent upgrading a power sword to a power fist and it was used to kill your warlord, thus turning a draw into a loss.


You agreed to a specific point, so no points over.

What if those ten points under prevented him from turning a power sword into a power fist, and he thus was able to deal the last wound to your Warlord instead of not being able to go at all (due to the Warlord killing him before I1), turning a draw into a loss anyway?

What if they failed a charge by one inch, turning a draw into a loss?

Then that'd be a result of the dice, not being over the points limit due to upgrading a weapon.

I would much rather play against an opponent in a casual game that was three points over than ten points under. It's one reason I'm a big fan of my army, because tiny points costs and cheap upgrades mean I can get very flexible with my list building. Need to drop 2 points? Drop a three point renegade, buy a one point upgrade. Points now perfect. Maybe it won't matter, but I have a bit of an obsession with being exact. I don't expect my opponent to share my views.

I don't care, as long as you tell me. I have no problem playing with a handicap.

Depends on what over-the-top ammount you've agreed upon with your opponent. In my group we generally agree on a 5 point limit.

My thought process goes as follows-

Q:Why do we have points limits at all?
A: To give players a force of similar power/size and equal chance to win (in theory)

Q: Does it work?
A: Not really. The codexes are so heinously imbalanced that X points spent in one codex would buy you troops costing X+50 points elsewhere. Free USR's change units so thoroughly that they may as well be different units. Within the same codex, chapter tactics add very different values to units- an otherwise identical force may find itself outmatched by a better chapter tactic.
Formations grant units for free- allowing more points to be spent on other upgrades like heavy weapons.

Q: In a game that is hardly razor balanced, will a few points make a difference?
A: Probably. 5 points is the difference between a meltagun and plasmagun. The plasmagun will be firing earlier and more often, unless it explodes.

I suppose the polite thing to do, and what I have always seen done is to let the opponent know you are over and invite him to add some other upgrade to his force to 'even back up'. A teleport homer, meltabomb or even master crafting a weapon.
He may decide to not add anything.

In any case, the forces are roughly similar in combat ability, which is the same result when you use exact points.

We usually allow less then half of any given upgrade. 3 points over for a meltabomb? Drop it, unless your opponent agrees its ok.Cheapest upgrade 10pts, and 4 over? You're good. Really, no whole upgrades.

This only applies to 40k and BFG. When we play Warmachine its points and nothing more. BUT Warmachine plays at smaller points (greater total %), is actually balanced to a decent degree, and makes it easy to get round points limits. 40K, none of those things, and BFG is just awkward. If you'll be playing 60 points down because your cheapest ship is 75, its just stupid.

But that's just us.

I'd play 10 pts either side of the line as long as there aren't any 10pt or less unnecessary upgrades you've taken. And I'd also like to see their list and for them to tell me before the game starts.

 =Angel= wrote:
I suppose the polite thing to do, and what I have always seen done is to let the opponent know you are over and invite him to add some other upgrade to his force to 'even back up'. A teleport homer, meltabomb or even master crafting a weapon.

I'm not at all a fan of this argument. One player gets to go over the limit with essential units and upgrades that they have to have for their army to function properly (otherwise they'd just remove something and not care about it), one player gets a random upgrade they didn't value enough to put in their original list and may or may not be able to use. A melta bomb on a random unit that will probably never use it does not offset whatever really important thing the other player is getting.

 Pouncey wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:

DaPino wrote:
I'm one of those, "if 10 points over don't matter then 10 points under shouldn't matter to you either". That said, I am not one to nitpick and I won't force that belief on others.

If someone comes to me and asks me if I'm okay with 10 points over I tell them: "I'd rather you not go over the points limit, but if that's how you want to play your army I won't stop you."

I'm a CSM player and it's not the 10 extra points my opponent brings that's going to make me lose.

It would if the ten points were spent upgrading a power sword to a power fist and it was used to kill your warlord, thus turning a draw into a loss.


You agreed to a specific point, so no points over.

What if those ten points under prevented him from turning a power sword into a power fist, and he thus was able to deal the last wound to your Warlord instead of not being able to go at all (due to the Warlord killing him before I1), turning a draw into a loss anyway?

Then at least I lost to a list that was legal per our agreement (the points limit). Perception, bro.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I honestly feel like people are assuming what always happens is someone gets within 3 of the point limit but wants a 5 point upgrade. Maybe that is how it always happens, seems to be what happens for me pretty often. But that's because I add my big units first. I put my wraithknight in right away, because I know when I've put nothing else in the list, I have room for it.

What if I put everything else in there first, then had 290 points left, and said to myself "But you know what, I really wanted to play my WK." So I plop that bad boy in the list (295 points) and suddenly I'm 5 points over. "It's only 5 points." I see something inherently wrong with this. I built a list to within 290 points of the limit, then selected a unit purposefully that costs (at base) 295 points.

My point is, you can't prove that you actually built your list to within 3 points then added melta bombs to one squad or something seemingly mostly irrelevant. Your opponent doesn't know you didn't actually just put all the small units in and then realize you're so close but just a bit over by putting in your bigger, elite things. So just stick to the social contract of considering a limit an actual limit, unless you're in a group/club that explicitly allows this, like some of you seem to be.

How players in my community deal with being a few points over the limit is, if you're over the point limit your opponent gets to choose who goes first or second. Its a pretty big deal, and I rarely see people over the point limit because of it

Tbh me and my mates often wait to see who actually turns up and then agree game sizes.

We do agree points in advance but it often falls apart if we have to do a 2v1 when or 2v2 when we originally agreed on different games. So generally speaking 5 points over is okay with us seeing sometimes it can be hard to make a spot on list with the models you have. But if we agreed 1850 points and the games for the day stayed as planned, we would only go over if there was a good reason for it.

In games balanced for fun pick up and play games, I would say 0 to 10 depending on game and opponent.

However, as Jervis said in 5th ed that he believed 40k was balanced to give no greater advantage than 20% from PV allocation.(He does not actually know as they never play test everything in a codex .)
(This was before GW allowed people to use detachments and formations and get a bunch of free stuff on top of the PV paid.)

Just to put this into context Jervis thinks in 5th ed 2000 pt game one side may have 2200pts of stuff and the other 1800 pts of stuff in the worst case scenario.

That 400 pts difference between the most cost effective list and the the least cost effective list in 40k, that the lead game developer admitted too 2 editions ago, before GW completely gave up on game balance and left it to the players to sort out.

As GW can not be bothered to get game balance closer than a few HUNDRED points either way in a 2000 pt game. Why are people bothered about 1 to 10 pts?

40k has very little in the way of game balance.
Do not pretend the points allocation in current 40k is anything other than guess work, and sales department influence.Because it is not.

Lanrak wrote:
Why are people bothered about 1 to 10 pts?

40k has very little in the way of game balance.
Do not pretend the points allocation in current 40k is anything other than guess work, and sales department influence.Because it is not.

To me, it has nothing to do with game balance whatsoever.

If you agreed with me that we were going to play a 2000pt limit game, then bring a 2000pt or less army. It's just common courtesy to do the thing you agreed to do.

If you want to play a 2200pt vs 2000pt game because you think it'd be more fun for whatever reason, I'm happy to discuss the possibility of doing that. I've played plenty of games over the decades where we just eyeballed what we thought would be a fun game rather than adding up points. Just don't show up to a game we agreed to be 2000pts with a 2005pt army, it's rude.

Then I revert to the first line of my post.If I was playing you I would go 0 point over.

I was trying to address those who believe the point values in 40k are good enough to provide a balanced game.And going over by more than 5 or 10 points would 'upset the game balance'.When this is clearly not true.

I always check with my opponent beforehand, on what they feel is appropriate over spend.

If the 5pts over doesn't affect balance in any meaningful way, then I'm sure 5pts under wouldn't affect it either, so just be under.

While I agree with you that slight point variations don't actually affect balance, that's not really the issue. The issue is we set a limit, just stick to the limit. If you want to increase the limit, OK we'll play 1750 instead of 1500.

For me it's more the principle of the matter than any meaningful game play difference caused by a discrepancy in points.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
1. End of story.

We agreed to an X points game, not an X+a bit points game.

If you allow any points over that, why not allow the same number of points over that limit, then the same number of points over that limit, etc.

This^

Between friends agree to whatever you want. But when going to a game with a stranger/without discussing such things where a point limit has been set why would anyone expect it to be otherwise. Because if you feel you can slip in that extra 5 or 10 points for something and don't think it is a big deal what is the limit? I play nids with only the codex rules (I stopped buying after the lousy 6th ed nid dex and only recently started 7th and am awaiting either a new nid dex, serious nid errata, etc before buying anything more from GW) - if I play against Tau, Eldar, Necrons or SM maybe I feel a 2000pt list for them means I can bring an extra 500 points. Why not? I'll still likely be at a disadvantage. A point limit is set for both players. With many odd pointed upgrades I can often be a few points under the set limit for the game and would be annoyed if my opponent arbitrarily decided he could take an extra 5 points or so to add that extra weapon upgrade.