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I think the idea of a point limit is part of the strategy of the game, so I do my best to stick to that mantra.

For me, if it is a friendly game it depends. If there is literally like one unit that doesn't have a melta bomb or a plasma gun I will just give it to them so I don't have to keep track of that one freaking unit. Nothing over that though, and they better be at 1 to 4 points under for me to do that. So, essentially no more than 14 points over depending on the situation. Unless you my local ork player who I often will go against with him having 150 to 200 points more (he brings fun, non competitive fluffy lists and is a genuine joy to play against). He is already getting a huge advantage so he can't go over.

It's an easy decision for me as soon as I see the army. If it's fluffy/casual, I really don't care if you're as many as 10 points over. If it's a competitive list, you should be at or below the points limit. Personally, I'll probably still let it a few points slide. It's not as though 2,000 points of my best 'Nids are going to be equivalent to 2,000 points of someone's best Eldar. It's not the extra three points that's going to kill me.

All that said, the biggest determinant is personality. If you're a pleasant person that clearly isn't WAAC, your 2,010 can play my 2,000 any day of the week. If you're a rules-lawyering jerk with a stick up your butt I'm not going to waste my time in the first place.

For a pick up game: 0
For a tournament game: 0
Playing with a friend: 0*

I'll usually give them a point or two if there is no easy cuts, but if it's a melta bomb that can be dropped, the melta bomb gets dropped. Points limits are part of the game.

 Peregrine wrote:

 =Angel= wrote:
I suppose the polite thing to do, and what I have always seen done is to let the opponent know you are over and invite him to add some other upgrade to his force to 'even back up'. A teleport homer, meltabomb or even master crafting a weapon.

I'm not at all a fan of this argument. One player gets to go over the limit with essential units and upgrades that they have to have for their army to function properly (otherwise they'd just remove something and not care about it), one player gets a random upgrade they didn't value enough to put in their original list and may or may not be able to use. A melta bomb on a random unit that will probably never use it does not offset whatever really important thing the other player is getting.

Exactly. You get the last tactical squad that you need to qualify for 10 free razorbacks and I get a melta bomb that I didn't really want. Terrific.

Don't forget the sheer laziness it shows in your list building if you go over the limit.

It's interesting in that the two other point based systems I play, X-wing and Warmahordes, doesn't have this problem. I wonder if it's because of how fiddly GW's armies are in comparison. If you're playing a 50pt X-Wing game and you have one point left over, but three points would get you a really good Elite Pilot Trait, it's really apparent the kind of advantage you're getting for breaking the limit.

WM is kinda the same way, where generally you're paying X for min squad, Y for max, and there's much less fiddliness in equipping characters. Along with the point system using totals much smaller than GW's, there's also the 'if I just go over by two points, I can get a max squad/another warmachine' that makes the consequences much more consequential.

I mistakenly go over by at least 10 points on some occasions... But that is fine if it doesn't change the list "too" much

 Peregrine wrote:

 =Angel= wrote:
I suppose the polite thing to do, and what I have always seen done is to let the opponent know you are over and invite him to add some other upgrade to his force to 'even back up'. A teleport homer, meltabomb or even master crafting a weapon.

I'm not at all a fan of this argument. One player gets to go over the limit with essential units and upgrades that they have to have for their army to function properly (otherwise they'd just remove something and not care about it), one player gets a random upgrade they didn't value enough to put in their original list and may or may not be able to use. A melta bomb on a random unit that will probably never use it does not offset whatever really important thing the other player is getting.

A point is a point, no? The relative balance should end up the same.

Well, this is assuming that 1 point = 1 point. In 40k, it naturally is nowhere near that, but then why bother with having the same points to begin with?

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 =Angel= wrote:
I suppose the polite thing to do, and what I have always seen done is to let the opponent know you are over and invite him to add some other upgrade to his force to 'even back up'. A teleport homer, meltabomb or even master crafting a weapon.

I'm not at all a fan of this argument. One player gets to go over the limit with essential units and upgrades that they have to have for their army to function properly (otherwise they'd just remove something and not care about it), one player gets a random upgrade they didn't value enough to put in their original list and may or may not be able to use. A melta bomb on a random unit that will probably never use it does not offset whatever really important thing the other player is getting.

A point is a point, no? The relative balance should end up the same.

Well, this is assuming that 1 point = 1 point. In 40k, it naturally is nowhere near that, but then why bother with having the same points to begin with?

That's very clearly and obviously not true. An army is more than simply the sum of it's components.

A 5pt upgrade that brings a badly needed capability is much more valuable than a 5pt upgrade that gives you something you already have plenty of elsewhere. E.G. A teleport homer is very useful if I have deep strikers. A 4th teleport homer on a squad that's not very mobile is not especially useful.

If I have a list that's strong on anti infantry but weak on anti-tank and the anti-tank unit I need takes me 5 points over that's a big difference when compared to replacing it with a 95 point anti-infantry unit.

So just say no in that particular case then?

 Ashiraya wrote:
So just say no in that particular case then?

So just build your list correctly in the first place then?

If I - due to the vagaries of minimum unit sizes, my available models and the like - find myself having to choose between 503 points or 440 points, I will write both lists and ask you if it is acceptable to play 503 points (and give you the opportunity to rewrite your list as you desire to the new points limit should you accept). You are not required to accept, and me suggesting a change of the points limit is not an attack on your person.

Well this is 5 pages of people saying the same thing thanks, the game went well. I asked and they said it was fine


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Incase for some reason you're wondering why i didnt just drop 5 points, the smallest upgrade in my army is 12 points.

 Skalathrax8 wrote:
Well this is 5 pages of people saying the same thing thanks, the game went well. I asked and they said it was fine


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Incase for some reason you're wondering why i didnt just drop 5 points, the smallest upgrade in my army is 12 points.

You can't think of list building like that. You don't just drop the cheapest upgrade. YOu think how how the slot in. You do things like drop 55 points to get a 50 point unit or something like that

 Scott-S6 wrote:
If you're over the limit because of an inconsequential upgrade then remove it.

If you're over the limit because it lets you squeeze in an extra unit or a crucial upgrade then that's cheating.

This. You've got a point limit, not point recommendation. If you can't make the limit, go under, not over.

 Ashiraya wrote:
A point is a point, no? The relative balance should end up the same.

Well, this is assuming that 1 point = 1 point. In 40k, it naturally is nowhere near that, but then why bother with having the same points to begin with?

No. Even if you assume that the game is perfectly balanced it isn't going to work that way because not all combinations of choices are equally effective. Option A and option B might be equally powerful in theory, but maybe A works best in a melee-heavy army while B works best in a shooting-heavy army. For example, consider a LR Exterminator (autocannon LRBT): generally its role is mass mid-strength shooting and it takes heavy bolter sponsons, and you don't want to upgrade to multimelta sponsons. But those multimelta sponsons are great on a LR Punisher that has to get up within 24" anyway. But because the LRBT unit entry gives you the freedom to pick any combination of weapons for the turret + hull gun + sponsons both LRBT variants can buy multimeltas. Part of having the freedom to choose is that it's possible to pick combinations of units/upgrades that have conflicting purposes and don't work well together.

So now we start the game, and you say "just add 5-10 points". Well, I could "upgrade" those heavy bolters to multimeltas, but that would be making my tank less effective! Or maybe I could buy a melta bomb for a squad that I plan to have camping a back-table objective for the entire game (the same squad in your army might be an aggressive offensive unit that could use a melta bomb, so this isn't a balance issue). Or maybe I actually have an upgrade that I would've liked to take but didn't because of the point limit, and we both get something relevant. But it isn't necessarily true that adding any random X points to my army is a meaningful upgrade.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Skalathrax8 wrote:
Incase for some reason you're wondering why i didnt just drop 5 points, the smallest upgrade in my army is 12 points.

Then you play at 7 points under the limit and have a legal army. It's not that hard to figure it out.

Depends who I play.

A stranger? A few points.

A player I enjoy playing? I don't care.

A player I want the game to be over as soon as possible? none.

What army's minimum upgrade is 12 though?

I like the challenge of list building so it annoys me if I can't keep my list under the agreed upon amount. I'll cut war gear or units until I'm under.

However, I have decidedly lax standards for opponents. I work days, nights and every second weekend and most of my fellow gamers either work normal hours or are only available during the shop's trading hours. If letting them have a couple of extra points nets me a game I have no issue with it.
Even in tournaments I'm not going to be the guy who forces an opponent to bow out for being a couple of points over, however, I am going to be the smug jerk who asks where the extra points were spent if I take the win.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Don't forget the sheer laziness it shows in your list building if you go over the limit.

In my opponent's defense I usually make THEM go over because of MY laziness in not wanting to remember which of the units DOESN'T have the melta bomb/plasma gun so I give it to them. With my local ork player it is intentional. I am getting free tanks usually least I can do is give him a 100 to 150 extra points of stuff.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Skalathrax8 wrote:
Well this is 5 pages of people saying the same thing thanks, the game went well. I asked and they said it was fine


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Incase for some reason you're wondering why i didnt just drop 5 points, the smallest upgrade in my army is 12 points.

You can't think of list building like that. You don't just drop the cheapest upgrade. YOu think how how the slot in. You do things like drop 55 points to get a 50 point unit or something like that

Which can then lead to non-WYSIWYG(bad) or destroy theme of the whole army(bad).

You know that there are people who don't play competively(whole idea which is joke in 40k anyway. You are hard pressed to come up with game LESS suited for competive game) but rather story?

point here or there doesn't make big difference effect wise. But it can hurt the story of the game. Story>>>result.

tneva82 wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Skalathrax8 wrote:
Well this is 5 pages of people saying the same thing thanks, the game went well. I asked and they said it was fine


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Incase for some reason you're wondering why i didnt just drop 5 points, the smallest upgrade in my army is 12 points.

You can't think of list building like that. You don't just drop the cheapest upgrade. YOu think how how the slot in. You do things like drop 55 points to get a 50 point unit or something like that

Which can then lead to non-WYSIWYG(bad) or destroy theme of the whole army(bad).

I'm sorry but I've heard this come up a few times and I just can't help but think if you can't manage it and remain WYSIWYG or keep your army's theme then you just really suck at putting together a list.

Drop a model if you have to, if you're running all units at minimum, consolidate some of them in to larger units so you can drop a model.

For those of us who do keep our armies within the points limits, these are the sorts of things we do and thus why we see it as impolite when other people don't make a similar effort.

A havoc launcher; and i did offer to remove stuff, but they really didnt look bothered. Id imagine the extra 3 points didnt make the game horribly unbalanced aha!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
What army's minimum upgrade is 12 though?

You'd think it was Imperial Knights, but I just checked.... and we have 5 point upgrades in the book.

tneva82 wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Skalathrax8 wrote:
Well this is 5 pages of people saying the same thing thanks, the game went well. I asked and they said it was fine


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Incase for some reason you're wondering why i didnt just drop 5 points, the smallest upgrade in my army is 12 points.

You can't think of list building like that. You don't just drop the cheapest upgrade. YOu think how how the slot in. You do things like drop 55 points to get a 50 point unit or something like that

Which can then lead to non-WYSIWYG(bad) or destroy theme of the whole army(bad).

Which means you didn't prepare your army to be wysiwyg at the given point level which is a you-problem and not a me-problem. If wysiwyg is your end-all be-all of listbuilding, don't agree to limits you can't commit to.

Just a reminder that we have an automatic language filter to substitute various rude words. If you use some unusual spekking to get a pseudo swear through this filre, it can be held as a contravention of forum rules.

The same if you post a picture with a sweary word in the image.

Thank you.

Anything up to 10 is fine. If you're going to really rules-lawyer on the limit then you're going to be some sort of hard-ass to deal with.

If 5 points over means a plasma gun for your dude rather than a lasgun or something, go wild, no one cares, unless you're at a tournament. It's a game, and 10 points doesn't matter, it's a rounding error.

It's like when people at the store will say the models are illegal because the models are painted except for the guns or something. Seriously, no one cares. It's a game. Nothing is on the line.

 Twiqbal wrote:
Anything up to 10 is fine. If you're going to really rules-lawyer on the limit then you're going to be some sort of hard-ass to deal with.

I can flip that around. If your unable to follow the simplest rule rule in the game, creating an army roster of X points or lower, then how loose to the rules is the guy going to be for the rest of the game. Is 6 and a 1/4 inches of movement just fine since its so difficult to be exact while using a tape measure? If a guy cant follow the simplest of rules, using basic math, how many fights are we going to have about LOS or other stuff that gets a little more murky? I'm not sure just how much fun this soft-ass loosy goosy guy is going to be much fun to play with either.

Yes, the above example is somewhat extreme, but if you assume that someone who wants to follow the most simplest of rules is a hard-ass, then well... the door can swing both ways.

 Jayden63 wrote:

 Twiqbal wrote:
Anything up to 10 is fine. If you're going to really rules-lawyer on the limit then you're going to be some sort of hard-ass to deal with.

I can flip that around. If your unable to follow the simplest rule rule in the game, creating an army roster of X points or lower, then how loose to the rules is the guy going to be for the rest of the game. Is 6 and a 1/4 inches of movement just fine since its so difficult to be exact while using a tape measure? If a guy cant follow the simplest of rules, using basic math, how many fights are we going to have about LOS or other stuff that gets a little more murky? I'm not sure just how much fun this soft-ass loosy goosy guy is going to be much fun to play with either.

Yes, the above example is somewhat extreme, but if you assume that someone who wants to follow the most simplest of rules is a hard-ass, then well... the door can swing both ways.

My experience is that the dude going 3 points over is way less likely to cheat than the dude at 1,500 points exactly, or is at least way less likely to start a fight about LOS. You might be right, my anecdotal experience is that the lazy player is generally more amiable to work with and more likely to look for a consensual and quick resolution of an issue, instead of Commander Rules Lawyer who will fething fight you on how to measure with a ruler.

Again, it's a game. If we're talking about things that are basically rounding errors in good faith, then it doesn't really matter. Changes in a tourny, but in a game among friends or even on a lazy Sunday afternoon at the store, I'm not gonna begrudge the player their meltagun just because it puts them 4 points over. Let them have the gun and I'll have the moral highground when we come to an issue later.