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I recall reading somewhere that the general tanks of the Pre-Strife human army were Baneblades and such, and that the Leman Russ was actually a tractor unit used by colonists.
I've checked the Wikia and Lexicanum about it, but there's no mention of that at all. (Or, at least, if there is, I missed it).
I did see, however, that the Russ used during the Great Crusade was a tank made with war in mind.

Makes sense that, on new worlds where Knights were necessary, tank-esque tractors were needed by the civilians. Not many roads anyway.

So yes, was the Leman Russ chasis adapted from a tractor, or am I imagining things?

No. I have never read anything that suggests that. I am not even sure the Leman Russ is a DAoT design. Its name (and primitive design compared to DAoT tech) heavily suggests it was created during the Great Crusade. Probably to serve as a cheap alternative to the Baneblade (which was the standard tank back then). In any case Leman Russ chassis would make for a horrible tractor.

I can remember reading something along those lines but I can't think if it was from an official source or on a forum here

 Iron_Captain wrote:
No. I have never read anything that suggests that. I am not even sure the Leman Russ is a DAoT design. Its name (and primitive design compared to DAoT tech) heavily suggests it was created during the Great Crusade. Probably to serve as a cheap alternative to the Baneblade (which was the standard tank back then). In any case Leman Russ chassis would make for a horrible tractor.

That's in-line with what I've read in the Solar Auxilia lore.
What I'm thinking I'm thinking is that someone found an STC for it, but at some point pre-Crusade, they lost it, although keeping a hold of the rough idea and making a tank from that.

To quote the wikia:
"The Leman Russ battle tank was first developed some time during the Great Crusade in the late 30th Millennium, but most of the information about the vehicle from that ancient time is missing or non-existent."
So that /verifies/ that the precursor to the Russ was from the DAoT, and the Russ itself is from the Crusade.

The Leman Russ we all know and love was named after the Space Wolves primarch, complementing his ferocity.
Likewise, the Malcador tanks (which are from the Age of Strife) are named after Malcador the Sigilite.

cmurphy96 wrote:
I can remember reading something along those lines but I can't think if it was from an official source or on a forum here

Alright, so I'm not the only one.
I have a stinking suspicion it's buried in the old Knight lore.

You remembered right but the wrong vehicle: The Rhino was an STC Tractor

I can't recall the exact time I saw "the leman Russ was based on a tractor". But it was probably retconed at some point and just remains as "built during the crusade" with its history deliberately smudged or non-existent.

The weirdest fact I saw once was that the Baneblade STC detailed a Light Tank (as crazy as that sounds) with the possibility that something even bigger was out there somewhere.
Again though, I think its been just never mentioned again and was just swept under the rug.

Heck even the Malcador has a fuzzy past. The only one I know about with a concrete background is the Macharius Tank. Built from pieces parts of STC before the Baneblade could be authorized on a forge world but when it was complete the Baneblade sent over from Mars, but then they couldn't build enough so the forge world started to pump out Macharius tanks to make up for it.

EldarArmy wrote:
You remembered right but the wrong vehicle: The Rhino was an STC Tractor

Well, how about that.
But from what I've just read on the wikia, it doesn't quite meet the description I'm recalling about the fabled tractor thing.

 Engine of War wrote:
-snip

The weirdest fact I saw once was that the Baneblade STC detailed a Light Tank (as crazy as that sounds) with the possibility that something even bigger was out there somewhere.
Again though, I think its been just never mentioned again and was just swept under the rug.

-snip

Yeah, I've heard that about Baneblades too, but I can't find it mentioned anywhere; just checked.
I'm pretty sure the Panzer-1000 Ratte is bigger than a Baneblade, though. Maybe the Dark Agers got them sensibly working.

 Buddingsquaw wrote:

EldarArmy wrote:
You remembered right but the wrong vehicle: The Rhino was an STC Tractor

Well, how about that.
But from what I've just read on the wikia, it doesn't quite meet the description I'm recalling about the fabled tractor thing.

Forget the wiki I've been doing this a long time.

Rhinos and a thing called the Land Crawler are agriculture vehicles. The Rhinos main advantage/design focus was always it's reliability and its go anywhere repairability (and its modding) so it was used as a military APC.

They can't make enough of them cos they lack an STC system. The Rhino was simply too good and too hard to make so the smurfs got them. Apparently it was to do with inherant reliability, when they are knocked out they can be knocked back together by a marine. Pretty sure I remember that last bit right.

All this is how I recall and none of this is on the beloved wikis anymore because they are copied and pasted from on another and have a lot of rubbish on them, but that's not going to be the last time you'll find this

 Buddingsquaw wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
No. I have never read anything that suggests that. I am not even sure the Leman Russ is a DAoT design. Its name (and primitive design compared to DAoT tech) heavily suggests it was created during the Great Crusade. Probably to serve as a cheap alternative to the Baneblade (which was the standard tank back then). In any case Leman Russ chassis would make for a horrible tractor.

Likewise, the Malcador tanks (which are from the Age of Strife) are named after Malcador the Sigilite.

Originally the Malcador tanks weren't though. iirc the origins of the Malcador were obscure but thought to date back to the early days of the Great Crusade (they were probably also the result of the attempt to create a cheaper tank than the Baneblade). Only in Betrayal did it state that it dates back to the Age of Strife. Whether this is a deliberate retcon of the earlier fluff in the IA books or just a mistake by the author we can only guess.

 Buddingsquaw wrote:

cmurphy96 wrote:
I can remember reading something along those lines but I can't think if it was from an official source or on a forum here

Alright, so I'm not the only one.

I have heard it a lot on this forum too. TBH I think it comes from fan faction rather than actual fluff, because I don't recall anyone ever finding a source for it. It would be interesting to see where it comes from though, since it is such a persistant rumour.

Always amused me that such a tank was named after a guy who, according to fluff, favored close combat weapons and preferred to walk.

Actually.

I don't believe that the Leman Russ is named after the Primarch. At least originally in the history of 40k the game, not the lore.

It went something along the lines of the first guy with the name "Leman Russ" was an IG commander who became a space marine but that was waaaaaaay before STC, Primarchs and what-not was added to the lore.

Later, it became something like Russ (the Primarch) found the plans for the tank, saved the planet said tank plans were found on, and got his name taped onto it.


I think it actually started life as a WW1 tank model.

The best explanation for the LRBT is that it came from the STC of a toy tank. That's why it's so cartoonish in proportions and obviously not functional, because it was a cartoon tank. Except the Imperium has to worship everything ancient and has no clue how engineering works, so they just scaled it up to real-tank size and built a few trillion of them.

 Buddingsquaw wrote:
I recall reading somewhere that the general tanks of the Pre-Strife human army were Baneblades and such, and that the Leman Russ was actually a tractor unit used by colonists.
I've checked the Wikia and Lexicanum about it, but there's no mention of that at all. (Or, at least, if there is, I missed it).
I did see, however, that the Russ used during the Great Crusade was a tank made with war in mind.

Makes sense that, on new worlds where Knights were necessary, tank-esque tractors were needed by the civilians. Not many roads anyway.

So yes, was the Leman Russ chasis adapted from a tractor, or am I imagining things?

No I never heard about that but a side note most of the models are based of real things. And in ww2 even in modren times canada has used tractors to move metal plates to remove mines.

I always took it that the Leman Russ STC was found either very later in the Crusade or actually AFTER the Heresy.

I think current fluff says different but that was my understanding before the resurgence of the HH books.

 Engine of War wrote:

It went something along the lines of the first guy with the name "Leman Russ" was an IG commander who became a space marine but that was waaaaaaay before STC, Primarchs and what-not was added to the lore.

Leman Russ was never stated to be part of the Imperial Army/Guard. He was stated to have 'risen to prominence' during the Lucan Crusade (in an unspecified capacity), whereupon he was appointed Adeptus Terra Special Agent before being elevated to Imperial Commander several years later. Imperial Commander was a lesser Lordship within the Adeptus Terra.

 Engine of War wrote:
Actually.

I don't believe that the Leman Russ is named after the Primarch. At least originally in the history of 40k the game, not the lore.

It went something along the lines of the first guy with the name "Leman Russ" was an IG commander who became a space marine but that was waaaaaaay before STC, Primarchs and what-not was added to the lore.

Later, it became something like Russ (the Primarch) found the plans for the tank, saved the planet said tank plans were found on, and got his name taped onto it.


I think it actually started life as a WW1 tank model.

Which brings us to a funny sort of circle, because the tanks in WW1 gained their name because the code name they were given indicated they were tractors (of a sort) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank#Etymology. I don't think its coincidence, I think GW deliberately played on the association.

 Stormonu wrote:

 Engine of War wrote:
Actually.

I don't believe that the Leman Russ is named after the Primarch. At least originally in the history of 40k the game, not the lore.

It went something along the lines of the first guy with the name "Leman Russ" was an IG commander who became a space marine but that was waaaaaaay before STC, Primarchs and what-not was added to the lore.

Later, it became something like Russ (the Primarch) found the plans for the tank, saved the planet said tank plans were found on, and got his name taped onto it.


I think it actually started life as a WW1 tank model.

Which brings us to a funny sort of circle, because the tanks in WW1 gained their name because the code name they were given indicated they were tractors (of a sort) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank#Etymology. I don't think its coincidence, I think GW deliberately played on the association.

Its more a matter of calling them "Tanks" to attempt to fool germans into thinking they are just mobile water carriers. Heck, A lot of the time "Tank" was sprayed on the boxes that held the well.. tank parts. Eventually it stuck. Its more catchy than "Land Ships" or "Armored Fighting Vehicle"

As for the Tractor origin?

The Holt Tractor was one of the first vehicles with a viable and working design for caterpillar treads.



I got to see the Holt function at a Bovington Tank fest, its the most clunkiest and inefficient thing I've ever seen. But it worked and it did better than any wheeled machine of its time.

Many early prototype machines that could be considered "Tanks" used the same design of suspension (if not just remove the tracks, and bolt them to the Tank design like the French Saint Chamond or German A7V).

Eventually the Mark 1 "Mother" was built for crossing trenchs with its long rhomboidal shape, other deviations were the French Renault which was an early design that could be considered a "Tank" with its 360 turret as opposed to sponsons (which were more or less an afterthought when the designers considered the bulky things might need to fight as opposed to being battering rams to punch through the barbed wire).

History!

 Engine of War wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:

 Engine of War wrote:
Actually.

I don't believe that the Leman Russ is named after the Primarch. At least originally in the history of 40k the game, not the lore.

It went something along the lines of the first guy with the name "Leman Russ" was an IG commander who became a space marine but that was waaaaaaay before STC, Primarchs and what-not was added to the lore.

Later, it became something like Russ (the Primarch) found the plans for the tank, saved the planet said tank plans were found on, and got his name taped onto it.


I think it actually started life as a WW1 tank model.

Which brings us to a funny sort of circle, because the tanks in WW1 gained their name because the code name they were given indicated they were tractors (of a sort) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank#Etymology. I don't think its coincidence, I think GW deliberately played on the association.

Its more a matter of calling them "Tanks" to attempt to fool germans into thinking they are just mobile water carriers. Heck, A lot of the time "Tank" was sprayed on the boxes that held the well.. tank parts. Eventually it stuck. Its more catchy than "Land Ships" or "Armored Fighting Vehicle"

A pity. I liked "Caterpillar Machine Gun Destroyers" better.

If I remember correctly, which I probably don't, the Leman Russ was at some point in the fluff a tractor. To be a bit more specific, the turret was originally part of another tank, as a secondary turret I think. They realised they needed a smaller armoured vehicle for some purpose or other and refitted the turret onto something capable of housing it. The only thing they had available was probably some form of heavy industrial tractor, or some sort of heavy duty recovery vehicle.

 Peregrine wrote:
The best explanation for the LRBT is that it came from the STC of a toy tank. That's why it's so cartoonish in proportions and obviously not functional, because it was a cartoon tank. Except the Imperium has to worship everything ancient and has no clue how engineering works, so they just scaled it up to real-tank size and built a few trillion of them.

I absolutely love this idea.

EldarArmy wrote:

 Buddingsquaw wrote:

EldarArmy wrote:
You remembered right but the wrong vehicle: The Rhino was an STC Tractor

Well, how about that.
But from what I've just read on the wikia, it doesn't quite meet the description I'm recalling about the fabled tractor thing.

Forget the wiki I've been doing this a long time.

Rhinos and a thing called the Land Crawler are agriculture vehicles. The Rhinos main advantage/design focus was always it's reliability and its go anywhere repairability (and its modding) so it was used as a military APC.

They can't make enough of them cos they lack an STC system. The Rhino was simply too good and too hard to make so the smurfs got them. Apparently it was to do with inherant reliability, when they are knocked out they can be knocked back together by a marine. Pretty sure I remember that last bit right.

All this is how I recall and none of this is on the beloved wikis anymore because they are copied and pasted from on another and have a lot of rubbish on them, but that's not going to be the last time you'll find this

Actually, the Rhino got it's name for it's original model number. And it was originally a exploratory and security vehicle for mankind's colonies during the Dark Age of Technology.

The Land Raider and Land Crawler were developed from the same STC by Arkhan Land.

The Leman Russ was built from a tractor. It is like a tractor, useless in a fight but hey you can have millions of them in a single battle.

As for the name, they come from the crazy days before established lore when Leman Russ was in the Guard, but it makes sense that he found the plans, because traditionally STCs are named after the person that finds them. Like Land's Raider, Land's Speeder and Land's Crawler.

But originally, Tanks were based off armoured Tractors, the Holt with an armoured cover, and were nicknamed tanks because they were supposed to be water tanks to fool the Germans. Then they promptly toured the tanks around Britain to get more funding so everyone and their dog knew about them.....

Every Imperial weapon dates back to an STC, which was built for a specific purpose in the DAOT. The Leman Russ was a tank and was designed as such.

I think this is a myth people like to parrot.

There is a lot of them in 40k. Ever since Abaddon was introduced in the 2nd ed codex his crusades are described to have been on different scales and with varying objectives (often with earlier crusades as ground work for later ones), yet people seem to think the old fluff was that Abaddon had 12 failed crusades or the new fluff is a retcon.

I suppose the Leman Russ tractor might be something similar?

I like to think that Leman Russ (Primarch) was named after Leman Russ (the tank) which was designed from a tractor.

Ergo, the Primarch of the Space Wolves is a Tractor. Where is your God Emperor now?

 Peregrine wrote:
The best explanation for the LRBT is that it came from the STC of a toy tank. That's why it's so cartoonish in proportions and obviously not functional, because it was a cartoon tank. Except the Imperium has to worship everything ancient and has no clue how engineering works, so they just scaled it up to real-tank size and built a few trillion of them.

this is my favorite explaination so far.

Leman Russ was never a tractor. I've not seen a single source that suggested this.

Rhinos where tractors "back then" (even though the idea is pretty damn silly. Nothing of it's look suggests tractor). And Centaurs are still used as tractors as well.
Land Crawlers are primarily tractors, they are not related to Leman Russ in any way. Land Crawlers can be converted to crappy stop-gap-solution light tanks. That's about it as far as combat-vehicle based on tractors goes.

 Keep wrote:
Leman Russ was never a tractor. I've not seen a single source that suggested this.

Rhinos where tractors "back then" (even though the idea is pretty damn silly. Nothing of it's look suggests tractor). And Centaurs are still used as tractors as well.
Land Crawlers are primarily tractors, they are not related to Leman Russ in any way. Land Crawlers can be converted to crappy stop-gap-solution light tanks. That's about it as far as combat-vehicle based on tractors goes.

The Rhino was never a "tractor". It was developed as a simple, easy to produce multi-purpose security and exploration vehicle during the Dark Age of Technology. In fact, the name "Rhino" came from it's original designation: RH1-N-0 Tracked Exploration and Multi-Purpose Defence Vehicle.


As for the Russ, I agree. I haven't seen any source that said it was a tractor. In fact, much of the early history of the Leman Russ Battle Tank is largely unknown, other than the fact that it was "developed sometime during the Great Crusade". That would suggest that it was a combat vehicle from the get-go.

ok i'm glad i'm wrong there. A tractor just doesn't make sense for the Rhino. I wonder why the tractor idea pops up in "popular mind" so much, when only the Land Crawler and the Centaur have something to do with tractors/ agri vehicles.

It fits with the general silliness of the Imperium that their main battle tanks would actually be tractors with guns.