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So I've been slowly building my KDK army, and finally got to use them in an actual game. The points for the game was low, 750 points, but I really wanted to use the Bloodhost, so I was able to fit a Slaughtercult with Berserkers, Bloodletters, Possessed, a single unit of cultists, and led by Skulltaker. To fill out the auxiliary slot, I took a Soul Grinder as part of the Daemon Engine formation (that's not a real formation). My opponent was using Craftworld Eldar with a standard CAD and scatter laser spam. I got creamed. I was tabled by turn 5, in part to my own mistake with not deepstriking the SG (he had the torrent flamer), and in part due to the overwhelming firepower I had to slog through.

What I learned from the game was, I HAVE to use Rhinos for the Berserkers, there is simply no way around that, and Soul Grinder with the flamer needs to be deepstruck in to be of much use. The other was, at that points level, I would have been better served by taking a CAD. The extra Blood Tithe points did allow me to summon a unit of flesh hounds and give a few units FNP, but ultimately, neither of these were of much use, and the rather expensive and inefficient formation requirements kept me from really fielding anything particularly effective. With a CAD, I could have taken a Heldrake and Fleshhounds instead of the Possessed and Berserkers, both of which would have made a much bigger impact to the game.

Since my group tends to play smaller games lately, I'm really not sure if Daemonkin are going to do well against the current crop of armies in the group (Marines, Eldar, Necrons are the usual suspects). Veteran Daemonkin players, what has your experience been in the 750-1250 point range, what works best for these smaller games? Is there a point threshold were the Bloodhost becomes more viable?

I would say bloodhost gets Less effective at higher points.. :-/

Your main issue is berzerkers. They really aren't that good. Bloodletters is usually the best choice, with the sarge upgrade for challenges and BT. Also, not sure if you had it or not, but a rhino for the possessed to ride around in is the only thing that will get them into combat.

Your list really wasn't that bad, but against scatter lasers high str, high ap, high rate of fire (the bane of all daemons) and a manoeuvrable force, it's hard to catch them in cc when they can go 36" a turn while gunning you down. It seems like it was just a case of rock paper scissors, you got rock, he got paper. I would however consider getting a skull cannon. Large blast str 8 ap 5 ignores cover will help pretty well. Also maybe a flying dp so he can catch the fast buggers?

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Your main issue is berzerkers. They really aren't that good. Bloodletters is usually the best choice, with the sarge upgrade for challenges and BT. Also, not sure if you had it or not, but a rhino for the possessed to ride around in is the only thing that will get them into combat.

Your list really wasn't that bad, but against scatter lasers high str, high ap, high rate of fire (the bane of all daemons) and a manoeuvrable force, it's hard to catch them in cc when they can go 36" a turn while gunning you down. It seems like it was just a case of rock paper scissors, you got rock, he got paper. I would however consider getting a skull cannon. Large blast str 8 ap 5 ignores cover will help pretty well. Also maybe a flying dp so he can catch the fast buggers?

I've wondered if the skull cannon was worth the trouble, as I don't own one yet, and have been on the fence about picking one up. As for the DP, I'd loved to have taken one, but at 750 points, it wasn't going to happen. Hindsight being 20/20, not deepstriking the SG was my biggest mistake, and would have led to at least a tie in VPs. There simply was no way I was going to catch all of his bikes and vypers on foot.

As for taking Berzerkers, it was either them or plain CSM, as I wanted to have a couple of mortal squad leaders to be able to be available if I generated enough tithe points for the DP or Bloodthirster summoning options.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Your main issue is berzerkers. They really aren't that good. Bloodletters is usually the best choice, with the sarge upgrade for challenges and BT. Also, not sure if you had it or not, but a rhino for the possessed to ride around in is the only thing that will get them into combat.

Your list really wasn't that bad, but against scatter lasers high str, high ap, high rate of fire (the bane of all daemons) and a manoeuvrable force, it's hard to catch them in cc when they can go 36" a turn while gunning you down. It seems like it was just a case of rock paper scissors, you got rock, he got paper. I would however consider getting a skull cannon. Large blast str 8 ap 5 ignores cover will help pretty well. Also maybe a flying dp so he can catch the fast buggers?

I've wondered if the skull cannon was worth the trouble, as I don't own one yet, and have been on the fence about picking one up. As for the DP, I'd loved to have taken one, but at 750 points, it wasn't going to happen. Hindsight being 20/20, not deepstriking the SG was my biggest mistake, and would have led to at least a tie in VPs. There simply was no way I was going to catch all of his bikes and vypers on foot.

As for taking Berzerkers, it was either them or plain CSM, as I wanted to have a couple of mortal squad leaders to be able to be available if I generated enough tithe points for the DP or Bloodthirster summoning options.

The true power of Khornekin lies entirely in being able to abuse the ever living gak out of an extreme MSU style of list - something that the Bloodhost does infinitely better than a CAD will get you.

The key is to ignore the majority of the CSM units, because well, they're still just mostly useless overcosted gak like they are in the actual CSM codex!

A basic Slaughter Cult should look something like;
- Cheapo Herald OR tooled out Jugger Lord at higher pts. (ie: 1500-1750+)
- 2x 8 Bloodletters
- 1x 5 Possessed w/Rhino (which also handily nets another Tithe point when destroyed too!)
- 2x 8 Cultists
- Spawn (mandatory if/when taking a Jugger Lord)

Add in min/maxed Gorepacks of 2x 3 Bikers w/double Melta + (if pts allow) Combi-Melta and then Hounds... LOTS of Hounds!

Fill out with various war engines, with Maulerfiends being the most optimal due to their cheapness & insanely good speed (too bad they suck in actual combat...), followed by Grinders & Khannons. Helbrutes are a last resort.


Just like with a 'regular' CSM army, the more actual Chaos Marines you take, the far weaker your army actually ends up, because GW seemingly hates Chaos. (or rather, Jervis is still punishing us for making his son cry non-stop for 6 months strait when we 'won' the EoT campaign! )

It really is a shame Berserkers aren't better for their points. At the very least, the chain axes should be free. I only like to use them because I spent so much time modifying the original kit so the poses are much more dynamic, and they do give a high leadership character for summoning the big beasties.

Sadly, even if they improve CSM units with a future release, how long will it take them to update/Errata the KDK book so they match?

Ok so the Bloodhost isn't bad, and is theoretically more effective at lower points, but the real strength of Daemonkin lies in an MSU build, and the Gorepack formation. I've played a lot of games at several points levels and the most competitive options for me centre around a CAD and Gorepack, every time. I should state from the outset that these opinions are with regard to playing Maelstrom missions

In terms of the tithe system, going for the FNP every turn is the best opton and complements the MSU approach perfectly. If I do find myself with a lot of tithe points I might summon some hounds or a skull cannon depending on the situation though. The skull cannon can make a big impact if you bring it in at the right time.

The CAD alows you easy access to a heldrake which is still an outstanding unit if used correctly. In terms of optimal units, possessed in a Slaughtercult are a tax no matter how well they might do in any one game. On that matter, berserkers and CSM are just bad for their points and should be avoided. The MSU approach relies on min/maxing the most effective units.

I've said it before and I'll say it again but single Spawn units are very useful for Daemonkin. Great mobility and can be used to accompany another unit, use them to charge first and eat any overwatch attacks, even better if you're facing a wall of death.

My preferred build is a Juggerlord of some kind joining a Gorepack hound unit, with as many MSU filling things up. At slightly higher limits you can start bringing Heldrakes and soul grinders which are great units. For troops it's always cultists or bloodletters. For the Gorepack biker units, keep them cheap with maybe one melta only, chances are 1 or 2 will die anyway anyway before they close with the enemy any that's more points freed up to spend elsewhere.

Tactics revolve around overloading with the MSU build and target saturation. In other words movement en masse towards the enemy, at higher points also DS units behind enemy lines for more pressure. It's usually very aggressive and a lot of fun.

Sample lists at 1000pts:

CAD
Chaos Lord, Juggernaught, Goredrinker, LC, Combat Familiar, Sigil

8x Bloodletters Inc Bloodreaper upgrade
8x Cultists

1x Spawn
1x Spawn
1x Spawn

Gorepack
3x bikes, melta gun
3x bikes, melta gun
9x hounds
5x hounds
5x hounds
5x hounds

Alternate list:

CAD
Chaos Lord as above

8x Cultists
8x Cultists

1x Spawn
1x Spawn
1x Spawn

Soulgrinder, baleful torrent

Gore pack
3x bikes, melta gun
3x bikes, melta gun
6x hounds
5x hounds
5x hounds

Hope this helps

Thanks for the input. You make a good point about only putting a single special weapon with the bikers, at that low a number, it very unlikely you will get two meltas per squad in range.