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I think it would be brilliant if Guard had access to a cheap weapon unit that specifically targeted Eldar bikes. Every other shootie army seems to have a check for something. Since Guard don't really have a check for anything and those bikes need checking...

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
I think it would be brilliant if Guard had access to a cheap weapon unit that specifically targeted Eldar bikes. Every other shootie army seems to have a check for something. Since Guard don't really have a check for anything and those bikes need checking...

Have I introduced you to my good friend the Wyvern?

ExFideFortis wrote:
Yes, some people will sing the praises of 50 fearless guardsmen with 5 las cannons and hidden power weapons, but it's a tremendous point sink which usually does absolutely nothing other than miss 3/5 lascannon shots a turn. It can't move around the board to do anything important, it is surprisingly easy to remove, and it does almost no damage. Yes indeed, as impressive as 150 lasgun shots may seem they usually end up doing nothing of significance.

I can get 5 lascannons elsewhere with way better rules to support them (like Rapiers) for cheaper and without wasting any points on useless guardsmen. This is unfortunate because I really like the Platoon structure and I would love to run 5 individual guardsmen squads rather than a big blob, but experience has forced me to accept the fact that if I spend anything more than the bare minimum on Troops, I'm hurting my list.

Excellent reference!

It depends the army. Necrons are durable enough that you can get away with using Warriors and Immortals, Vanguard and Rangers are excellent for the cost (plus having Scout doesn't hurt), Marine Bikers are still decent and then you got stupid Eldar Windriders.

I play orks and my current 1850 list has 30 footslogging boyz and 10 naked trukk boyz which is exactly 330 pt. That's around 18% of the list. That's a decent amount of troops for the current state of 40k. And they do ok. Still a bunch of fnp boyz that put a couple wounds here and there before pk.

My other 1850 list has 2 squads of grots as troops which is exactly 70 pt and ~4% of the list. In this case, bikers take the place of footslogging boyz.

Bikes vs Boyz have their pros and cons. Pros are - bikes are somewhat tougher than boyz point-to-point against most opponents, they are way shootier and can be brutally fast when needed. The drawback is that i don't have their models and they're not troops, so i have to spend points on grots instead of koptas or mek gunz. Also, there are specific enemies that murderize bikers way easier than boyz like tau missile spam or wizards with psy shreiks. And i face wizards in every game against sm, csm or eldar. So, basically in every game. And boyz are not that much slower on the charge. They can get sling-shotted by biker boss and dok and they also have 1 turn of WAAAGH!. They do lack maneuvrability though. But once again, every ork player has a plephora of boyz and not many people have biker boyz as they're very expensive to get due to how good they seem to be on paper. For example, it's easy to find ork boyz for 1$ per model and cheaper. Now good luck finding biker boyz for at least 5$.

 Sledgehammer wrote:
Riflemen in general are pretty useless and is why I've switched to killteam.

Admech (Both Skitarii and Cult) feel like they'd be dirty in Kill Team :I I'm actually interested in trying that out now.

 War Kitten wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
I think it would be brilliant if Guard had access to a cheap weapon unit that specifically targeted Eldar bikes. Every other shootie army seems to have a check for something. Since Guard don't really have a check for anything and those bikes need checking...

Have I introduced you to my good friend the Wyvern?

Kills Orcs, Eldar, Guard, Tau and Tyranids pretty well by the look of it.
Nasty.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:


On top of this, Eldar Jetbikes have no business being in the troops section. It's mind boggling how this unit was placed in the troops section,

What about Space Marine Bikes? Seems to me that if SM get Bike troops it's fair for Eldar (and most armies) to as well.

I think this topic is veering towards answering how relevant troops are. Those codex's/armies that are lucky enough to have super mobile (jet bikes, bikes etc) or super powerful troops will find them to be very relevant. And in that context the argument comes down entirely to the codex you pick.
For everyone else troops are once again just a tax.

pm713 wrote:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:


On top of this, Eldar Jetbikes have no business being in the troops section. It's mind boggling how this unit was placed in the troops section,

What about Space Marine Bikes? Seems to me that if SM get Bike troops it's fair for Eldar (and most armies) to as well.

Space Marine Bikes aren't Troops natively. It requires an Independent Character equipped with a Space Marine Bike.
Those Space Marine Bikes also aren't all able to take Special Weapons, and require the purchase of an Attack Bike to include a Heavy Weapon into the squad.
Or come with a Librarian as part of the squad.

If Eldar Jetbikes had the same restrictions as Space Marine Bikes(2 models in the squad can take a Special Weapon and requires a character mounted on a bike to become unlocked as a Troop choice and requires the purchase of an IC to add a Psyker into the squad), I think you would have had a point.

As it stands? Your post is not really relevant.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 War Kitten wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
I think it would be brilliant if Guard had access to a cheap weapon unit that specifically targeted Eldar bikes. Every other shootie army seems to have a check for something. Since Guard don't really have a check for anything and those bikes need checking...

Have I introduced you to my good friend the Wyvern?

If they shift Skyfire to match what "Death From the Skies" considers Air Targets(Jetbikes, Skimmers, Flyers, Flying Monstrous Creatures, Superheavy Flyers, Flying Gargantuan Creatures), the Hydra could definitely see a resurgence.

 Kanluwen wrote:

If they shift Skyfire to match what "Death From the Skies" considers Air Targets(Jetbikes, Skimmers, Flyers, Flying Monstrous Creatures, Superheavy Flyers, Flying Gargantuan Creatures), the Hydra could definitely see a resurgence.

Skyfire already shoots almost everything on that list at normal BS. The only unit type on that list that it doesn't is Jetbikes

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

If they shift Skyfire to match what "Death From the Skies" considers Air Targets(Jetbikes, Skimmers, Flyers, Flying Monstrous Creatures, Superheavy Flyers, Flying Gargantuan Creatures), the Hydra could definitely see a resurgence.

Skyfire already shoots almost everything on that list at normal BS. The only unit type on that list that it doesn't is Jetbikes

It's almost like the post I was replying to was specifically dealing with Jetbikes...

I'm aware of what Skyfire does and doesn't do. If someone isn't running Skimmers, FGC/FMCs or Flyers/SHFs but is running Jetbikes--currently, Skyfire is wasted. Simply tuning Skyfire to work with the DFTS list of Air Targets would mean that the Hydra has more instances where it can become useful.

It still won't outshine the underpriced nonsense that is the Wyvern, but in an Emperor's Wrath Artillery Company? Ignores Cover Hydra Flak Tank Squads would be nasty.

Ah yes ignore cover ap4 flakk guns would be great against Scatbikes and their 3+ armor. Oh wait

Seriously what army has Jetbikes but doesn't also have Skimmers or Flyers? The only army I can think of is Eldar that isn't running any grav tanks but the Hydra isn't magically going to be useful because it will still do no damage to the 3+ armor of wind riders

 Kanluwen wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:


On top of this, Eldar Jetbikes have no business being in the troops section. It's mind boggling how this unit was placed in the troops section,

What about Space Marine Bikes? Seems to me that if SM get Bike troops it's fair for Eldar (and most armies) to as well.

Space Marine Bikes aren't Troops natively. It requires an Independent Character equipped with a Space Marine Bike.
Those Space Marine Bikes also aren't all able to take Special Weapons, and require the purchase of an Attack Bike to include a Heavy Weapon into the squad.
Or come with a Librarian as part of the squad.

If Eldar Jetbikes had the same restrictions as Space Marine Bikes(2 models in the squad can take a Special Weapon and requires a character mounted on a bike to become unlocked as a Troop choice and requires the purchase of an IC to add a Psyker into the squad), I think you would have had a point.

Oh please it's not like taking a Bike is a hard choice. You take a good upgrade to get good troops.

A warlock isn't really comparable to a Librarian. A warlock is pretty easy to kill, has one mastery levels and access to one psychic discipline and one that will probably kill it through Perils. A librarian has a ridiculous amount of disciplines, more mastery levels, psychic hoods and a force weapon.

I'm not going to defend Windriders having 10pt heavy weapons for each bike. Nobody can without sounding crazy.

 CrownAxe wrote:
Ah yes ignore cover ap4 flakk guns would be great against Scatbikes and their 3+ armor. Oh wait

2 sets of twin-linked S7 AP4 Heavy 2 autocannons(Hydra Autocannons on the Hydra Flak Tanks) granted an Ignores Cover order against T4 jetbikers with a 3+ armor save versus 2 sets of S4, AP6 Heavy 2, Barrage, Blast, Ignores Cover, Shred(Stormshard Mortars on the Wyvern).


You really need to actually read what someone posts, rather than what you think they posted. When someone specifically posts:

I'm aware of what Skyfire does and doesn't do. If someone isn't running Skimmers, FGC/FMCs or Flyers/SHFs but is running Jetbikes--currently, Skyfire is wasted. Simply tuning Skyfire to work with the DFTS list of Air Targets would mean that the Hydra has more instances where it can become useful.

It still won't outshine the underpriced nonsense that is the Wyvern, but in an Emperor's Wrath Artillery Company? Ignores Cover Hydra Flak Tank Squads would be nasty.

You should understand that maybe, just maybe, the point isn't to suggest something that will be crazy broken but rather something could actually become useful?

Because again, thanks to the current edition, Hydra Flak Tanks are garbage unless you run the Imperial Armour version with its Autotargeters. Changing the way Skyfire works to include Jetbikes, while not making Hydras the "OMG!!11!!! (U)lLT1lMl /A\ T lE Jetbike Predator" would make it so that at least players aren't going to feel boned if they bring a Hydra against an army that does not include Skimmers, Flyers, or FMCs.

It adds another useful element to the Hydra, a tank which is desperately in need of one.

Seriously what army has Jetbikes but doesn't also have Skimmers or Flyers? The only army I can think of is Eldar that isn't running any grav tanks but the Hydra isn't magically going to be useful because it will still do no damage to the 3+ armor of wind riders

Eldar, Harlequins, and Dark Eldar are the only factions which have units of jetbikes without you jumping into 30K. Dark Angels have a single character.

Any of those 3 factions can be built with jetbikes and no Skimmers or Flyers, because (spoiler alert here!)players can make their lists to just not include those things.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:


On top of this, Eldar Jetbikes have no business being in the troops section. It's mind boggling how this unit was placed in the troops section,

What about Space Marine Bikes? Seems to me that if SM get Bike troops it's fair for Eldar (and most armies) to as well.

Space Marine Bikes aren't Troops natively. It requires an Independent Character equipped with a Space Marine Bike.
Those Space Marine Bikes also aren't all able to take Special Weapons, and require the purchase of an Attack Bike to include a Heavy Weapon into the squad.
Or come with a Librarian as part of the squad.

If Eldar Jetbikes had the same restrictions as Space Marine Bikes(2 models in the squad can take a Special Weapon and requires a character mounted on a bike to become unlocked as a Troop choice and requires the purchase of an IC to add a Psyker into the squad), I think you would have had a point.

Oh please it's not like taking a Bike is a hard choice. You take a good upgrade to get good troops.

I never said it was a hard choice. It is worth noting, however, that taking an IC on a bike will not allow you to replace Tactical Squads with Bikes in any of the Formations that form up the primary codex or non-White Scars detachments.

A warlock isn't really comparable to a Librarian. A warlock is pretty easy to kill, has one mastery levels and access to one psychic discipline and one that will probably kill it through Perils. A librarian has a ridiculous amount of disciplines, more mastery levels, psychic hoods and a force weapon.

A Librarian has access to a ridiculous amount of disciplines and starts at the same Mastery Level as your Warlock, with the option to pay for a single additional Mastery Level.

The Warlock to Librarian is the closest thing I can give you as an example from Space Marines. Yeah, the Librarian has a smidge more options--but of course he does. You pay 65 points for a ML1 Librarian.

I'm not going to defend Windriders having 10pt heavy weapons for each bike. Nobody can without sounding crazy.

You'd be surprised how hard some people try to defend it though.

 Huron black heart wrote:
I think this topic is veering towards answering how relevant troops are. Those codex's/armies that are lucky enough to have super mobile (jet bikes, bikes etc) or super powerful troops will find them to be very relevant. And in that context the argument comes down entirely to the codex you pick.
For everyone else troops are once again just a tax.

That about sums it up.
Troops with no special feature have no real benefit.

 Huron black heart wrote:
I think this topic is veering towards answering how relevant troops are. Those codex's/armies that are lucky enough to have super mobile (jet bikes, bikes etc) or super powerful troops will find them to be very relevant. And in that context the argument comes down entirely to the codex you pick.
For everyone else troops are once again just a tax.

What he said. There are few outliers - Eldar Windrider Jetbikes are obnoxiously powerful and misplaced in the Troops category. Space Marine double Gladius with free transports will feature a lot of troops and functions competitively just by sheer volume of units on the table. There are one or two others - Necrons and Skitarri got mentioned, but I'm not familiar enough with those armies to comment. For all other purposes, Troops are considered something one spends the least amount of points possible on so one has more points to spend on sexier units from other categories.

I find the state of affairs to be particularly obnoxious. Fluff would have us believe that units from the Troops categories are each faction's most numerous units and the majority of the units an opponent is likely to encounter on the battlefield. However, GW doesn't back up that fluff with very effective rules, requiring just 2 Troops choices in a CAD, and CADs aren't even necessary to play anymore, what with Unbound and Troops-free formations.

My gaming group plays with a house rule requiring us to spend a minimum of 40% of our points on Troops in any given list. This makes the armies look more thematically appropriate on the tabletop, and it also makes the games a lot closer, as the silly-powerful units aren't generally found in Troops, and the 40% Troops minimum means everyone has less points to spend on the overpowered drek. I wish GW would instate a similar rule. I'm of the opinion it would improve the game tremendously.

Someone is going to post something to the effect of "Hurr durr Windrider spam hurr durr!!11!!!111!" Just to head that noise off - yes, Windrider spam would be a problem. Windrider Jetbikes should be in the Fast Attack category, plain and simple. Plus, if the game had a Troops requirement with actual bite and you're playing Windrider spam, guess what? You're TFG.

A TFG that is going to win every game. Which is what TFGs care about. TFG: 1 Other players: 0.

Martel732 wrote:
A TFG that is going to win every game. Which is what TFGs care about. TFG: 1 Other players: 0.

You say that but the TFG where I am probably is going to lose to any competent player who isn't playing things like Khorne Berserker spam.

Martel732 wrote:
A TFG that is going to run out of people willing to play games with him. Which is what everyone else care about. TFG: 0 Other players: 1.

Fixed it for you.

Plus, if GW was going to instate a Troops requirement with some actual bite, one would hope they'd be astute enough to recognize Windriders were going to be an obvious problem and either put them back to 1 heavy per 3 bikes or shift them to Fast Attack.

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
A TFG that is going to run out of people willing to play games with him. Which is what everyone else care about. TFG: 0 Other players: 1.

Fixed it for you.

Plus, if GW was going to instate a Troops requirement with some actual bite, one would hope they'd be astute enough to recognize Windriders were going to be an obvious problem and either put them back to 1 heavy per 3 bikes or shift them to Fast Attack.

It's not that easy for me. We draw opponents out of a hat. Which makes this a prisoner's dilemma. Eldar players might get matched with other Eldar players or Tau players so they need the scatterbikes in their lists.

Martel732 wrote:

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
A TFG that is going to run out of people willing to play games with him. Which is what everyone else care about. TFG: 0 Other players: 1.

Fixed it for you.

Plus, if GW was going to instate a Troops requirement with some actual bite, one would hope they'd be astute enough to recognize Windriders were going to be an obvious problem and either put them back to 1 heavy per 3 bikes or shift them to Fast Attack.

It's not that easy for me. We draw opponents out of a hat. Which makes this a prisoner's dilemma. Eldar players might get matched with other Eldar players or Tau players so they need the scatterbikes in their lists.

Or, everyone could just make a gentleman's agreement not to spam Windriders, or to shift them to Fast Attack where they belong. Even the most ardent Eldar fanboi would have a hard time arguing that Scatbikes should be Troops.

Or, you could take a look at the list, and if it's Scatbike spam, just refuse to play. Do that consistently enough, and anyone who cares about actually getting in a game won't pull out Scatbike spam against you.

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
A TFG that is going to run out of people willing to play games with him. Which is what everyone else care about. TFG: 0 Other players: 1.

Fixed it for you.

Plus, if GW was going to instate a Troops requirement with some actual bite, one would hope they'd be astute enough to recognize Windriders were going to be an obvious problem and either put them back to 1 heavy per 3 bikes or shift them to Fast Attack.

It's not that easy for me. We draw opponents out of a hat. Which makes this a prisoner's dilemma. Eldar players might get matched with other Eldar players or Tau players so they need the scatterbikes in their lists.

Or, everyone could just make a gentleman's agreement not to spam Windriders, or to shift them to Fast Attack where they belong. Even the most ardent Eldar fanboi would have a hard time arguing that Scatbikes should be Troops.

Or, you could take a look at the list, and if it's Scatbike spam, just refuse to play. Do that consistently enough, and anyone who cares about actually getting in a game won't pull out Scatbike spam against you.

More likely they'll just throw me out of the pool. Everyone is too concerned with maximizing firepower to entertain a "gentleman's agreement". After all, why should they with Wolfstar out there?

Martel732 wrote:

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
A TFG that is going to run out of people willing to play games with him. Which is what everyone else care about. TFG: 0 Other players: 1.

Fixed it for you.

Plus, if GW was going to instate a Troops requirement with some actual bite, one would hope they'd be astute enough to recognize Windriders were going to be an obvious problem and either put them back to 1 heavy per 3 bikes or shift them to Fast Attack.

It's not that easy for me. We draw opponents out of a hat. Which makes this a prisoner's dilemma. Eldar players might get matched with other Eldar players or Tau players so they need the scatterbikes in their lists.

Or, everyone could just make a gentleman's agreement not to spam Windriders, or to shift them to Fast Attack where they belong. Even the most ardent Eldar fanboi would have a hard time arguing that Scatbikes should be Troops.

Or, you could take a look at the list, and if it's Scatbike spam, just refuse to play. Do that consistently enough, and anyone who cares about actually getting in a game won't pull out Scatbike spam against you.

More likely they'll just throw me out of the pool. Everyone is too concerned with maximizing firepower to entertain a "gentleman's agreement". After all, why should they with Wolfstar out there?

To have fun? The whole point of the Gentlemens agreement is things like that stop.

Okay guys, don't stray too far away from discussing troop choices

From what's been posted so far, there is definately inconsistancy between those troops that are good (Eldar jetbikes, Necron warriors) and most of the others.

Now, what do you believe could be done to FIX troops that are underperforming (or overperforming). Should it be troop-wide (ex., only troops score) and/or specific fixes for various troops (ex., eldar jetbikes have to be unlocked and limit 1-2 special weapons).

 Stormonu wrote:
Okay guys, don't stray too far away from discussing troop choices

From what's been posted so far, there is definately inconsistancy between those troops that are good (Eldar jetbikes, Necron warriors) and most of the others.

Now, what do you believe could be done to FIX troops that are underperforming. Should it be troop-wide (ex., only troops score) and/or specific fixes for various troops.

Marines have too many "upgrades" that don't pan out on the tabletop. Other troops, like guardsmen and boyz have been passed by in a game of mass shooting. How do you make a troop that can stand up to opposing troops with two saves for a S6 36" ROF 4 gun? You can't.

Martel732 wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
Okay guys, don't stray too far away from discussing troop choices

From what's been posted so far, there is definately inconsistancy between those troops that are good (Eldar jetbikes, Necron warriors) and most of the others.

Now, what do you believe could be done to FIX troops that are underperforming. Should it be troop-wide (ex., only troops score) and/or specific fixes for various troops.

Marines have too many "upgrades" that don't pan out on the tabletop. Other troops, like guardsmen and boyz have been passed by in a game of mass shooting. How do you make a troop that can stand up to opposing troops with two saves for a S6 36" ROF 4 gun? You can't.

#
The somewhat obvious solution is to remove the problem then.

Yeah it seems like the troops that are most relevant are even more relevant than units in other force org places, such as elites/fa/hs. My troops shouldn't be significantly better or as good as your heavy support in terms of firepower, there's (theoretically) a reason for the delineation. I know I'm an Eldar player and yes I use jetbikes, but mostly in competitive environments. In casual I try to use my rangers/dire avengers more (or just another small army). I might try using the jetbikes in a fast attack slot casually now, because I do like bringing them, but I recognize how overwhelming it is. If they were to be moved to fast attack permanently, I wouldn't complain. That really is where they should be, regardless of the pilots being guardians.

pm713 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
Okay guys, don't stray too far away from discussing troop choices

From what's been posted so far, there is definately inconsistancy between those troops that are good (Eldar jetbikes, Necron warriors) and most of the others.

Now, what do you believe could be done to FIX troops that are underperforming. Should it be troop-wide (ex., only troops score) and/or specific fixes for various troops.

Marines have too many "upgrades" that don't pan out on the tabletop. Other troops, like guardsmen and boyz have been passed by in a game of mass shooting. How do you make a troop that can stand up to opposing troops with two saves for a S6 36" ROF 4 gun? You can't.

#
The somewhat obvious solution is to remove the problem then.

The model kit is made. It's not being removed. Maybe we could price it out of existence, though. But GW wants to sell them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BossJakadakk wrote:
Yeah it seems like the troops that are most relevant are even more relevant than units in other force org places, such as elites/fa/hs. My troops shouldn't be significantly better or as good as your heavy support in terms of firepower, there's (theoretically) a reason for the delineation. I know I'm an Eldar player and yes I use jetbikes, but mostly in competitive environments. In casual I try to use my rangers/dire avengers more (or just another small army). I might try using the jetbikes in a fast attack slot casually now, because I do like bringing them, but I recognize how overwhelming it is. If they were to be moved to fast attack permanently, I wouldn't complain. That really is where they should be, regardless of the pilots being guardians.

They're too good no matter where you put them. Scatterlaser OP.

 Stormonu wrote:
Okay guys, don't stray too far away from discussing troop choices

From what's been posted so far, there is definately inconsistancy between those troops that are good (Eldar jetbikes, Necron warriors) and most of the others.

Now, what do you believe could be done to FIX troops that are underperforming (or overperforming). Should it be troop-wide (ex., only troops score) and/or specific fixes for various troops (ex., eldar jetbikes have to be unlocked and limit 1-2 special weapons).

I think better weaponry would help on the troops that underperform, or more survivability. I don't think jetbikes can be limited to 1-2 special weapons (well they can, but the cat's kinda out of the bag already). Unlocking them as troops might work, maybe it requires a farseer or autarch on a bike to get each one as troop? Maybe each bike HQ unlocks 2 units of jetbike troops? Idk. I'm not sure any troops should have rof 4 weapons with 36" range unit-wide anyway. Even bringing the range down to 24" would probably help, but they're jetbikes, so that's still a huge safe zone.

Martel732 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
Okay guys, don't stray too far away from discussing troop choices

From what's been posted so far, there is definately inconsistancy between those troops that are good (Eldar jetbikes, Necron warriors) and most of the others.

Now, what do you believe could be done to FIX troops that are underperforming. Should it be troop-wide (ex., only troops score) and/or specific fixes for various troops.

Marines have too many "upgrades" that don't pan out on the tabletop. Other troops, like guardsmen and boyz have been passed by in a game of mass shooting. How do you make a troop that can stand up to opposing troops with two saves for a S6 36" ROF 4 gun? You can't.

#
The somewhat obvious solution is to remove the problem then.

The model kit is made. It's not being removed. Maybe we could price it out of existence, though. But GW wants to sell them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BossJakadakk wrote:
Yeah it seems like the troops that are most relevant are even more relevant than units in other force org places, such as elites/fa/hs. My troops shouldn't be significantly better or as good as your heavy support in terms of firepower, there's (theoretically) a reason for the delineation. I know I'm an Eldar player and yes I use jetbikes, but mostly in competitive environments. In casual I try to use my rangers/dire avengers more (or just another small army). I might try using the jetbikes in a fast attack slot casually now, because I do like bringing them, but I recognize how overwhelming it is. If they were to be moved to fast attack permanently, I wouldn't complain. That really is where they should be, regardless of the pilots being guardians.

They're too good no matter where you put them. Scatterlaser OP.

The kit isn't the be all and end all.

Assault Cannon OP? Same S and ROF but much better AP and Rending for reduced range.