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Martel732 wrote:


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BossJakadakk wrote:
Yeah it seems like the troops that are most relevant are even more relevant than units in other force org places, such as elites/fa/hs. My troops shouldn't be significantly better or as good as your heavy support in terms of firepower, there's (theoretically) a reason for the delineation. I know I'm an Eldar player and yes I use jetbikes, but mostly in competitive environments. In casual I try to use my rangers/dire avengers more (or just another small army). I might try using the jetbikes in a fast attack slot casually now, because I do like bringing them, but I recognize how overwhelming it is. If they were to be moved to fast attack permanently, I wouldn't complain. That really is where they should be, regardless of the pilots being guardians.

They're too good no matter where you put them. Scatterlaser OP.

I know right? But it reduces the number of units of them you can put in a CAD, at least. It's something, I guess. And takes away their objective secured.

BossJakadakk wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
Okay guys, don't stray too far away from discussing troop choices

From what's been posted so far, there is definately inconsistancy between those troops that are good (Eldar jetbikes, Necron warriors) and most of the others.

Now, what do you believe could be done to FIX troops that are underperforming (or overperforming). Should it be troop-wide (ex., only troops score) and/or specific fixes for various troops (ex., eldar jetbikes have to be unlocked and limit 1-2 special weapons).

I think better weaponry would help on the troops that underperform, or more survivability. I don't think jetbikes can be limited to 1-2 special weapons (well they can, but the cat's kinda out of the bag already). Unlocking them as troops might work, maybe it requires a farseer or autarch on a bike to get each one as troop? Maybe each bike HQ unlocks 2 units of jetbike troops? Idk. I'm not sure any troops should have rof 4 weapons with 36" range unit-wide anyway. Even bringing the range down to 24" would probably help, but they're jetbikes, so that's still a huge safe zone.

ROF 4 S6 is a legit anti-tank weapon in 7th ed. That's a huge part of the problem. It's also anti-MC. It's anti-everything. It flips the bird to the AP system by spamming mass reliable wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BossJakadakk wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BossJakadakk wrote:
Yeah it seems like the troops that are most relevant are even more relevant than units in other force org places, such as elites/fa/hs. My troops shouldn't be significantly better or as good as your heavy support in terms of firepower, there's (theoretically) a reason for the delineation. I know I'm an Eldar player and yes I use jetbikes, but mostly in competitive environments. In casual I try to use my rangers/dire avengers more (or just another small army). I might try using the jetbikes in a fast attack slot casually now, because I do like bringing them, but I recognize how overwhelming it is. If they were to be moved to fast attack permanently, I wouldn't complain. That really is where they should be, regardless of the pilots being guardians.

They're too good no matter where you put them. Scatterlaser OP.

I know right? But it reduces the number of units of them you can put in a CAD, at least. It's something, I guess. And takes away their objective secured.

They don't need obj sec in tablings.


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The dropoff from scatterlaser to shuriken cannon is actually quite stark. Which leads me back to scatterlaser OP.

My FLGS has shifted tournaments from being Eternal War centered, to using Maelstrom missions. This actually does effect troops, as before, (if you used a CAD) your troops were rarely going to pay off even with Objective Secured. Others would blast them off with more powerful units, and score without any issues.

Now, with objectives needing to be held for just one turn, troops are improved. Troops can snag objectives under the nose of non-CAD troops, and that is valuable. Doubly so if they're fast. On that note, dedicated transports for troops also become more valuable, as they also have Objective Secured, and can tank shock close enough to objectives to snag them for valuable points.

Note that I am not saying that shifting to a more maelstrom way of player will cancel out the cheese, nothing is going to cancel out the cheese but copious house rules (which can be subjective and tricky) or armies being written with less cheese in the future.

Maelstrom makes the score for BA better before I'm tabled. I'll agree with that.

I would say harlequin troupes are pretty good troops

What about Space Marine Bikes? Seems to me that if SM get Bike troops it's fair for Eldar (and most armies) to as well.

I don't agree with SM bikes as troops either outside of White Scars and Raven Wing. Those are the only two who should be able to take bike troops IMO.

On the other hand I feel strongly that Assault Marines should be moved to Troops.

My firing lines ususally use 1-2 cadre fireblades with fire warriors. I think it's fine and there are better options comparatively, but I can't complain.

This topic has made me think about a few things regarding my codex and troops. In my games the troop choices usually play some sort of role, occasionally pulling out a last minute victory with late game ObSec grabs or by pulling their weight throughout the game. This is the part where it's important to say I play Orks casually and usually against CSM. Chaos Lords being able to take Marks and make Plague/Noise Marines troops seems pretty good to me and they'll usually be a worry for me for most of the battle. Heck even plain old Chaos Marines with Rhino and special weapons can do decent damage to my army - the flamer and melta combination is a pretty good one when most of my units are either relying on cover or open-topped vehicles and get ID'd by S8+. My slugga boyz have had their moments of glory at times as well, usually as a result of good Mob Rule rolls/some source of Fearless and lucky rolls from the Nob, while I'm aware they aren't excellent they still have their uses. Obviously sometimes they're rendered useless when their Trukk explodes and they roll high for Mob Rule hits, potentially giving up two KP in the process.

The other thing this makes me realise is how much of an impact it would have made if the 7th edition Ork codex had retained the ability for Warbosses to make Nobz/MANz/Warbikers troops and a Big Mek to make Deff Dreads troops. Okay maybe troop Dreads wouldn't be great but it would be a nice option to have 80 point AV12 S10 troops. One of the reasons Zhadsnark is so popular for competitive Orks is that he makes Warbikers troops, they're a great FA unit but an even better troops choice - they certainly count as a relevant unit with twin-linked S5 Assault 3 weapons. Hardly comparable to shoota boyz.

The last thing it makes me realise is that I'm glad that when I faced Eldar there were no Scatter Laser Windriders to be seen and that I'd really struggle against a Gladius or Scouting Hit and Run SM biker list

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

What about Space Marine Bikes? Seems to me that if SM get Bike troops it's fair for Eldar (and most armies) to as well.

I don't agree with SM bikes as troops either outside of White Scars and Raven Wing. Those are the only two who should be able to take bike troops IMO.

On the other hand I feel strongly that Assault Marines should be moved to Troops.

I'd be cool with that, as long as Lukas the Trickster and Blood Claws gets the option for a Jump Pack - Not Sky Claws in the Fast Attack slot, Blood Claws as troops.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

What about Space Marine Bikes? Seems to me that if SM get Bike troops it's fair for Eldar (and most armies) to as well.

I don't agree with SM bikes as troops either outside of White Scars and Raven Wing. Those are the only two who should be able to take bike troops IMO.

On the other hand I feel strongly that Assault Marines should be moved to Troops.

Why should they be Troops?

Ha ha ha! look at all these people who think troops are worth a darn compared to scatbikes!

If your troops are not scat bikes or have reanimation protocol then they are worthless.

Why should they be Troops?

Why shouldn't they?

They are basically assaulty tactical marines. No one in their right mind would take them over bikes outside of skyhammer, or any other fast attack slot for that matter. Black Templars, Space Wolves and Blood Angels (previously) all use Assault Marines as troops anyway, albeit without a jump pack in many cases. But jump packs are hardly broken.

The Space Marine legions used to take them as troops, why they changed this I don't know.

pm713 wrote:
"Aren't so bad" meaning cheesy as all feth.

It depends a lot on your groups competitiveness. My group are mainly fairly casual in actual games so I can be fine using armies with a fair amount of troops but a super competitive group will be a different story.

A Gladius does not give free transport. A Battle company gives free transport. many SM players likely take a singlke demi company and build around it. a full sized Battle company leaves precious little points for additional stuff

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

Why should they be Troops?

Why shouldn't they?

They are basically assaulty tactical marines. No one in their right mind would take them over bikes outside of skyhammer, or any other fast attack slot for that matter. Black Templars, Space Wolves and Blood Angels (previously) all use Assault Marines as troops anyway, albeit without a jump pack in many cases. But jump packs are hardly broken.

The Space Marine legions used to take them as troops, why they changed this I don't know.

My understanding with Black Templars is that the only different troop they have is Crusader squads who are different to assault marines. Space Wolves definitely don't have assault marine troops.

They shouldn't because magic Codex Astartes rules. The Legions did a great deal of things differently. Space Marines are meant to follow the Codex and rules should reflect this.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

Why should they be Troops?

Why shouldn't they?

They are basically assaulty tactical marines. No one in their right mind would take them over bikes outside of skyhammer, or any other fast attack slot for that matter. Black Templars, Space Wolves and Blood Angels (previously) all use Assault Marines as troops anyway, albeit without a jump pack in many cases. But jump packs are hardly broken.

The Space Marine legions used to take them as troops, why they changed this I don't know.

No one takes them because their horrible, not because they take a fast attack slot. I rarely see people taking bikes in fast attack anyway, if your taking bikes your taking them as troops usually.

Sadly most troops are utterly irrelevant now unless you're something like an Eldar Jetbike. Which to me is a complete and utter shame.

No one takes them because their horrible, not because they take a fast attack slot. I rarely see people taking bikes in fast attack anyway, if your taking bikes your taking them as troops usually.

Yea, exactly.

At least if they were troops they could fulfil some sort of battlefield roll other than bully the weak.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

No one takes them because their horrible, not because they take a fast attack slot. I rarely see people taking bikes in fast attack anyway, if your taking bikes your taking them as troops usually.

Yea, exactly.

At least if they were troops they could fulfil some sort of battlefield roll other than bully the weak.

I find that hard to believe. Even a Skyclaw doesn't do much damage and they have twice the charge attacks so offensively they're a lot better.

I'm of the belief that Jump HQ's should unlock Assault Marines as Troops and Biker HQ's unlock Biker Marines as Troops. People can say it's unfluffy all they want, but not all successor chapters act like their parent ones.

I've always seen most people take the bare minimum of troops just so they can max out on heavy support/elite stuff even before formations and unbound was a thing. Me personally I think ork boyz are still integral because my cool stuff (what units this thread considers 'makes troops irrelevant') is still not very durable and I want my opponent shooting at boyz until they do their job. Unless you're tau or elder scatbikes, a squad of 20-30 boyz is intimidating and the mind game alone makes it worth it. Are they relevant besides being a distraction? Personally boyz have always been extra wounds for the power klaw nob in my experience, and thats good enough for me. 5 attacks at strength 10 is all you need, boss.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'm of the belief that Jump HQ's should unlock Assault Marines as Troops and Biker HQ's unlock Biker Marines as Troops. People can say it's unfluffy all they want, but not all successor chapters act like their parent ones.

And you're not playing an entire chapter of space marines each battle. You play a small detachment sent out to fight some guys. What if you're playing just the chapter's assault force hitting the enemy before the rest of your marines get there? I think its very fluffy tbh.


So are troops relevant? I think so, but I think most people just find them boring.

edit: maelstrom missions are to blame in my opinion. Oh you got secure objective 'way the f--k over there'? Well too bad foot soldier you have to A: spend points on a transport that can move good or B: have your fast attack choice get it.

 Don Savik wrote:
I've always seen most people take the bare minimum of troops just so they can max out on heavy support/elite stuff even before formations and unbound was a thing. Me personally I think ork boyz are still integral because my cool stuff (what units this thread considers 'makes troops irrelevant') is still not very durable and I want my opponent shooting at boyz until they do their job. Unless you're tau or elder scatbikes, a squad of 20-30 boyz is intimidating and the mind game alone makes it worth it. Are they relevant besides being a distraction? Personally boyz have always been extra wounds for the power klaw nob in my experience, and thats good enough for me. 5 attacks at strength 10 is all you need, boss.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'm of the belief that Jump HQ's should unlock Assault Marines as Troops and Biker HQ's unlock Biker Marines as Troops. People can say it's unfluffy all they want, but not all successor chapters act like their parent ones.

And you're not playing an entire chapter of space marines each battle. You play a small detachment sent out to fight some guys. What if you're playing just the chapter's assault force hitting the enemy before the rest of your marines get there? I think its very fluffy tbh.


So are troops relevant? I think so, but I think most people just find them boring.

edit: maelstrom missions are to blame in my opinion. Oh you got secure objective 'way the f--k over there'? Well too bad foot soldier you have to A: spend points on a transport that can move good or B: have your fast attack choice get it.

Surprised there haven't been more IG complaints about maelstrom and objectives in general. They really don't like moving.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

What about Space Marine Bikes? Seems to me that if SM get Bike troops it's fair for Eldar (and most armies) to as well.

I don't agree with SM bikes as troops either outside of White Scars and Raven Wing. Those are the only two who should be able to take bike troops IMO.

On the other hand I feel strongly that Assault Marines should be moved to Troops.

Bikes for white scars and DA ravenwing (but not black knights, they are as good as scatter bikes)
Assault marines for blood angels and raven guard.

I play Orks. Troop choices are my army. I have 8 full mobs of slugga boys and 5 mobs of 20 shoota boys ready for use.
I also have nearly 150 gretchen.
So, ya my troops are trash, that's how it is.
Who to fix it? give all my boys proppa choppas again and if it's being given away I'll take bs 3 as well.
Lastly, I need the "wobbly model syndrome" rule removed for flyers and flying monstrous creatures. ( Yep, a green skin no fly zone)
My above list is a little low. I also have 40+ ard' boys with choppas and sluggas and another 40+ with shootas.
And none of that counts the hundred more bodies I am still building.
Hell, I almost for got. I want my Orks fearless again too.
Or something close to that. And larger mob size!

I'm of the opinion Troops don't need to be fixed. Instead, the rest of the game does. For starters, the rules could back up the fluff and require players actually use more Troops. I favor a percentage requirement, but something like requiring two Troops choices to unlock one each of Fast Attack, Elite, and Heavy Support slots would work too. If there were more Troops in the game, then Troops become more relevant, because there will always be things they can engage with a reasonable chance of success, and because everyone will have less points to spend on overpowered units and abusive combos.

Having done that, GW would just need to clean up a few abusive outliers - Windriders being the most obvious. My experience with a high-Troops environment is that it works very well to bring a lot more balance to the game.

Also, formations would need some looking at, but not as much as one might expect. If 40% Troops is required in all lists, then players have to make sure they meet that requirement before dipping into the cheese.

Troops being bad generally is more indicative of the state of the game than the troops selection.

Many things about 40K need to be changed, the whole thing needs to be re-built from the ground up. Everything else is just a patch work fix until then and causes other problems while trying to fix existing ones.

 warhead01 wrote:
I play Orks. Troop choices are my army. I have 8 full mobs of slugga boys and 5 mobs of 20 shoota boys ready for use.
I also have nearly 150 gretchen.
So, ya my troops are trash, that's how it is.
Who to fix it? give all my boys proppa choppas again and if it's being given away I'll take bs 3 as well.
Lastly, I need the "wobbly model syndrome" rule removed for flyers and flying monstrous creatures. ( Yep, a green skin no fly zone)
My above list is a little low. I also have 40+ ard' boys with choppas and sluggas and another 40+ with shootas.
And none of that counts the hundred more bodies I am still building.
Hell, I almost for got. I want my Orks fearless again too.
Or something close to that. And larger mob size!

Orc Troops get bikes. Orc Stompas have fearless bubbles and Orc players struggle to find enough deployment space on most tables to field their tides.
Shouldn't you be asking for things they don't already have...?

Space Marines Tacticals are better than most troops in the game.
Space Marine Bikers are a solid choice.
Necron Warriors always see use.
Tyranids if you go swarm you got to love your guants, gants, and Tervigon
Tyranids going for big bugs break out Mulcloids and Spore Mines
Chaos Demons love their Pink Horrors for the Psychic goodness
Imperial Guardsmen are cheap and plentiful.
Chaos Cultists are cheap and plentiful.
Eldar Jetbikes, so good they make people weep

If you are not using your troops, you're not doing it right.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Don Savik wrote:
I've always seen most people take the bare minimum of troops just so they can max out on heavy support/elite stuff even before formations and unbound was a thing. Me personally I think ork boyz are still integral because my cool stuff (what units this thread considers 'makes troops irrelevant') is still not very durable and I want my opponent shooting at boyz until they do their job. Unless you're tau or elder scatbikes, a squad of 20-30 boyz is intimidating and the mind game alone makes it worth it. Are they relevant besides being a distraction? Personally boyz have always been extra wounds for the power klaw nob in my experience, and thats good enough for me. 5 attacks at strength 10 is all you need, boss.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'm of the belief that Jump HQ's should unlock Assault Marines as Troops and Biker HQ's unlock Biker Marines as Troops. People can say it's unfluffy all they want, but not all successor chapters act like their parent ones.

And you're not playing an entire chapter of space marines each battle. You play a small detachment sent out to fight some guys. What if you're playing just the chapter's assault force hitting the enemy before the rest of your marines get there? I think its very fluffy tbh.


So are troops relevant? I think so, but I think most people just find them boring.

edit: maelstrom missions are to blame in my opinion. Oh you got secure objective 'way the f--k over there'? Well too bad foot soldier you have to A: spend points on a transport that can move good or B: have your fast attack choice get it.

Surprised there haven't been more IG complaints about maelstrom and objectives in general. They really don't like moving.

They do also tend to have a body count that means they can be spread amongst multiple objectives.

I use troops all the time, I also suck ass at war hammer.

My raptors army is very troop centric, using all 6 slots for CAD. And my Farsight army is all troops and drones.

Sure, they're no Necrons, but they do the job!

 adamsouza wrote:
Space Marines Tacticals are better than most troops in the game.
Space Marine Bikers are a solid choice.
Necron Warriors always see use.
Tyranids if you go swarm you got to love your guants, gants, and Tervigon
Tyranids going for big bugs break out Mulcloids and Spore Mines
Chaos Demons love their Pink Horrors for the Psychic goodness
Imperial Guardsmen are cheap and plentiful.
Chaos Cultists are cheap and plentiful.
Eldar Jetbikes, so good they make people weep

If you are not using your troops, you're not doing it right.

How cute, so, what Space Marines can take bikers as 'troops'?