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We are just a few short days away from the 100th anniversary of the first day of the Battle of the Somme. The battle lasted 5 months and somewhere between 1.1 and 1.2 million people lost their lives. The first day, 1st July 1916, the British alone lost over 57000 men. The scale of loss felt across all the nations involved in the conflict is unimaginable to our present generations. From my own corner of the world our local division the 36th Ulster lost 5,500 men on that first day. I was brought up on stories of the Somme as many others were. Streets in my local town have been named after it and other decisive battles that will soon have their own anniversaries. Its traditional in my countries to paint murals on house walls for a variety of reasons usually political but this one went up recently and I think it shows 100 years later how potent the wars legacy remains in many communities.
The legacy of the Somme has reverberated down through the last century of in many ways. Nearly every family was touched in some way. My own family are farmers and the war left my great grandmother alone with 4 children to look after. After the war a memorial was erected on our farm by the local council which is still used today, a service will be held there this Sunday.
I though that it might be nice for the Dakka community to pause for a moment or two over the next few days to reflect on the men who suffered beyond words just a few short generations ago. Share stories of families who were touched by this terrible battle and just say collectively as a group
'We Will Remember Them'
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/03 12:19:12
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I've been there, there is a very good museum there.
I went on a few battlefield tours when I was on detachment to Belgium, when I was in the RAF.
It's haunting.
The only distasteful thing I found, was that they were selling militaria that had been dug up in the area.
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Remember Somme. Never shall the blueblood affairs claim the peasantry of any nation.
The Somme (and so many stalemate of the western front). did weak the British Empire considerably, the extensive losses of manpower especially in and around the Anglia (and other less troblesome provinces of the UK) did ease the Irish independent movements considerably (much in the same way the Balkan slavics earned its place in the world as a free nation and not a subject to either Habsbourgs or required to hand over a daughter to the Osman harems.
marv335 wrote: I've been there, there is a very good museum there.
I went on a few battlefield tours when I was on detachment to Belgium, when I was in the RAF.
It's haunting.
The only distasteful thing I found, was that they were selling militaria that had been dug up in the area.
It is indeed a haunting the place. The militaria sellers I agree are rather tasteless. Thousands of items are found each year at ploughing time.
The wargraves commission do a marvellous job though keeping the place so well.
Service to mark the Somme this morning was beautiful. Memorial covered in a thick blanket of fog, regimental band of the Irish Guards were in attendance and played beautifully. Dignified representatives from all the services. Hopefully we never again need memorials to remember battles of a million plus dead men.
NOBLY YOU FOUGHT, YOUR KNIGHTLY VIRTUE PROVED
YOUR MEMORY HALLOWED IN THE LAND YOU LOVED.”
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/07/04 08:52:02
I think the craziest part is by the third wave, they were still going over the top and slowly walking into machine gun fire. Insane amount of courage to do something like that.
Knockagh wrote: Thousands of items are found each year at ploughing time.
I found a handful of shrapnel and the remains of an empty bullet case just by looking in the borders of a ploughed field for 5 minutes. Considering that this was nearly a century later that's crazy.
I found the lone tree that marks the high point of the Newfoundland Regiments attack on Beumont-hamel particularly moving. You can still clearly see the opposing front line trenches and the tree is only maybe 100 meters from the Canadian trench yet over 600 men lost their lives crossing that tiny strip of land
Knockagh wrote: Thousands of items are found each year at ploughing time.
I found a handful of shrapnel and the remains of an empty bullet case just by looking in the borders of a ploughed field for 5 minutes. Considering that this was nearly a century later that's crazy.
I found the lone tree that marks the high point of the Newfoundland Regiments attack on Beumont-hamel particularly moving. You can still clearly see the opposing front line trenches and the tree is only maybe 100 meters from the Canadian trench yet over 600 men lost their lives crossing that tiny strip of land
The number fired is hard to believe, looking at large artillery rounds there were 250,000 fired on the 1st of July alone. They could be heard on Hampstead Heath 165 miles away! Can you imagine the noise for the men in the trenches? It must have sounded like the world was ending.
Knockagh wrote: Can you imagine the noise for the men in the trenches? It must have sounded like the world was ending.
I'm amazed that anyone who wasn't killed in the fighting could return to normal life at all. You do not simply shake your head and ignore continous artillery barrages that shake your whole body and drown out all other sounds. Let us at least hope men won't be driven into meat grinders like this for little reason again. The politicians failed to maintain peace but they didn't pay the ultimate price for it.
Of our family members who fought at the Somme I find this guy most interesting. He left the family farm here I'm Carrickfergus to find his fortune in the mines of Canada but was brought back to Europe to fight as a member of the Canadian Engineers, surviving the Somme only to be killed later in September 1917. His memorial on the Commonwealth graves site shows his home here on the farm. I think his is a tragic tale taken so far across the world to look for work only to die in France years later.
DutchWinsAll wrote: I think the craziest part is by the third wave, they were still going over the top and slowly walking into machine gun fire. Insane amount of courage to do something like that.
It is said that British MP did the same jobs the Commissariats (Both the pre-coldwar Soviets, and the 40k Imperium) do. to shoot any cowards running away instead of charging the enemy MG positions.
The parts that's more real is that the General Staff of both sides still believes that the classic bayonet charges of the enlightened era is a finishing move in any battle. (And the assailant always win! the defenders will run in fear). the bayonet myth actually ends in the American Civil War (after Gettysburg i think)
There's a sadder tale still than the total tragedy of the slaughter of the Somme.
Not only did all those loyal Irishmen fight and die as soldiers of the Brittish Empire in a brutal war of attrition but at the same time their countrymen back home were staging a rebellion which ultimately resulted in independence for (most of) their nation from British rule.
As a result many who survived the Somme amongst many other brutal battles came home to find their country in the midst of total upheaval.
Now I'm not here to point fingers and take sides and declare right and wrong AT ALL.
Memorial of The Somme in particular has always been a big part of Northen Irish (British) history, it's taught in schools, like Knockagh has pointed out it's writ large on many of our gables and memorials adorn many many town centres across the country.
But sadly, the tragic deaths of so so many, coupled with the socioeconomic and political circumstances of the day (I'm talking about the British rule in Ireland) resulted in so painful a scar for the Irish that for the longest time it was barely acknowledged that so many Irishmen fought and died in WWI and it wasn't' until 2011 that the two governments of the UK and the Republic of Ireland finally met in a joint commemoration in Dublin for the Irishmen of the British Empire who very very rightly deserve to be remembered.
I'm honestly not trying to be divisive. I just wanted to acknowledge how thorny an issue its been for the last hundred years. For Ireland both North and South the Somme was a massive massive event with long repercussions that are still resonating with us to this day.
The fact that this centenary can finally be marked in unity and solemn remembrance by all must honestly bring peace to the memory of so many.
DutchWinsAll wrote: I think the craziest part is by the third wave, they were still going over the top and slowly walking into machine gun fire. Insane amount of courage to do something like that.
It is said that British MP did the same jobs the Commissariats (Both the pre-coldwar Soviets, and the 40k Imperium) do. to shoot any cowards running away instead of charging the enemy MG positions.
The parts that's more real is that the General Staff of both sides still believes that the classic bayonet charges of the enlightened era is a finishing move in any battle. (And the assailant always win! the defenders will run in fear). the bayonet myth actually ends in the American Civil War (after Gettysburg i think)
It's because things like PTSD were not understood properly at this time. A man who refused to fight was a coward and he deserved to be shot. As above, the Irish did end up being shot an awful lot. Tensions were high at the time but that was no excuse.
However, there is a bit of misconception regarding the Armies tactics.
Firstly, having a trench war was actually better than a mobile one in terms of causalities and they knew this. The Somme was terrible, but the deaths came in bunches, very big bunches, but then there were long periods where very few people died. So it ended up causing less casualties in the long run.nif you compare the western and eastern fronts, I believe the eastern trumps the west in terms of lost casualties.
Secondly, the generals knew that marching towards the trenches was a bad idea. The only problem was, how else do you take a trench? You can't flank it because it runs from coast to Switzerland. You have to go across it.
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DutchWinsAll wrote: I think the craziest part is by the third wave, they were still going over the top and slowly walking into machine gun fire. Insane amount of courage to do something like that.
Better the probable bullet from the enemy and a hero's death than a definite bullet from the firing squad and a coward's grave, I guess.
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DutchWinsAll wrote: I think the craziest part is by the third wave, they were still going over the top and slowly walking into machine gun fire. Insane amount of courage to do something like that.
It is said that British MP did the same jobs the Commissariats (Both the pre-coldwar Soviets, and the 40k Imperium) do. to shoot any cowards running away instead of charging the enemy MG positions.
The parts that's more real is that the General Staff of both sides still believes that the classic bayonet charges of the enlightened era is a finishing move in any battle. (And the assailant always win! the defenders will run in fear). the bayonet myth actually ends in the American Civil War (after Gettysburg i think)
It's because things like PTSD were not understood properly at this time. A man who refused to fight was a coward and he deserved to be shot. As above, the Irish did end up being shot an awful lot. Tensions were high at the time but that was no excuse.
However, there is a bit of misconception regarding the Armies tactics.
Firstly, having a trench war was actually better than a mobile one in terms of causalities and they knew this. The Somme was terrible, but the deaths came in bunches, very big bunches, but then there were long periods where very few people died. So it ended up causing less casualties in the long run.nif you compare the western and eastern fronts, I believe the eastern trumps the west in terms of lost casualties.
Secondly, the generals knew that marching towards the trenches was a bad idea. The only problem was, how else do you take a trench? You can't flank it because it runs from coast to Switzerland. You have to go across it.
1. What is PTSD?
2. And the 'Landship' thing was then still being developed,.... I've watched some documentaries before, one military docu cited that the modern trenches can still be taken efficiently without the use of armored vehicles and with much less casaulties. it is only possible if machine guns are lighter (and have a larger magazine. like the M249 SAW, in 1916 only Lewis fits a criteria of being an SAW). yet the flamers were used extensively in WW1 but became less common after 'Nam.... Apart of continious parallelling trench systems running all the way from North Sea to Swiss borders. what else contributed to the attritions/ death tollsหฦ
3. Did the eastern front still fight in the old ways? lancers and cavalrymen with sabers of different brands (Hussars, Ulans, Cossacks, Cuirassiers, etc.) still charging opponents? troops in the eastern fronts (you mean East Prussia campaign?) still not getting steel helmets?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/28 05:19:14
welshhoppo wrote: Secondly, the generals knew that marching towards the trenches was a bad idea. The only problem was, how else do you take a trench? You can't flank it because it runs from coast to Switzerland. You have to go across it.
Part of the issue at the Somme was that the Germans and French had already spent 1915 learning the realities of major campaigns in a trench warfare environment. The Germans were experimenting with stormtroopers and infiltration techniques, while the French had begun to learn hard won lessons of the need for combined arms operations over massed offensives.
Unfortunately armies rarely learn important lessons from other nation's battles. And while the British had learned some things (there were tanks at the Somme), they still thought that massed artillery followed by close order assaults were the way to win assaults. The result was those horrific early days of the Somme.
To the credit of the British commanders, they did learn quite quickly. While they still suffered considerably more casualties than the Germans over the campaign, by the end they'd pretty much leveled the casualty ratio, and achieved the goal of extremely heavy attrition.
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The Queen has been over in Northern Ireland fr a few days and she unveiled this new statue of Robert Quigg, a well know Somme hero who was awarded the Victoria Cross for his actions on the opening day of the battle.
On 1st July 1916, Quigg advanced with his platoon towards the German trenches through a torrent of gunfire and artillery. By nightfall, the 12th Battalion had suffered horrific casualties and Quigg learned that Sir Harry Macnaghten was among the missing.
Heroic Deeds
What happened next earned Rifleman Robert Quigg the Victoria Cross, the highest military honour awarded for valour in the British Commonwealth. His medal citation reports that:
“…..Early next morning, hearing a rumour that his platoon officer was lying out wounded, he went out seven times to look for him under heavy shell and machine-gun fire, each time bringing back a wounded man. The last man he dragged in on a waterproof sheet from within a few yards of the enemy’s wire. He was seven hours engaged in this most gallant work, and finally was so exhausted that he had to give it up.”
The last casualty that Quigg saved was Robert Matthews, from the village of Mosside, less than six miles from Bushmills.
Sadly, Quigg never found his platoon commander. Sir Harry Macnaghten has no known grave and is commemorated on the Thiepval Memorial, France; he is among 25 men from Bushmills and district who were killed on the first day of the Somme.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/04 08:52:16
Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. Mental illness caused by an extremely traumatic event. 100 years ago it was simply considered cowardice and a lot of armies shot the victims for this reason.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/28 18:57:30
Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. Mental illness caused by an extremely traumatic event. 100 years ago it was simply considered cowardice and a lot of armies shot the victims for this reason.
Somewhat relevant:
[youtube]
Goes into discussion about how modern war is so psychologically damaging.
But never on that scale and warfare had never been fought on such a large scale.
I doubt very few survivors did not have some degree. German states and allied.
Inyrestingly as I learned. Each German state at time had different regiments and helmets, the German army was more like 5+ different ones
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/01 09:05:50
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
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Soteks Prophet wrote: We say we remember but we're happy to send men off to die in the middle east and bomb farmers back to the stone age. I don't think we do remember.
Generally speaking, wars aren't done because we want them. Since WW2 there have been no real expansionist attempts via war. Except with the Falklands...
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