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I just bought the Deathwatch Overkill boxed set, and the Imperial Knights Renegade boxed set, and I have a few tactics and army composition questions that I was hoping dakka could help me with.

I plan on running the Ghosar Quintus Broodkin formation and the two knights. Seems fluffy and should be at least semi competitive. Am I wrong in that assumption?

I don't have the knights codex yet (getting it soon), so how should I kit out my knights? I obviously want to cover any roles that the broodkin are lacking in, which seems to be horde control, and anti-armor (granted they have 2 mining lasers, but that's not much, and the range is only 24 inches).

Tactics wise, I plan on using the Ambush the Unhallowed special rule, but are there any units that I should hold back for objective camping? I'm thinking the faithful throng should sit on an objective, for the obvious reason that they have heavy weapons. Should they camp at a midfield or backfield objective, or be part of the assault?

As for the ICs, what units should they join?

It seems like a waste to put Patriarch Ghosar with the Purestrain Princelings, just because the lack of ablative wounds. Seems like he would work best in the favored disciples.

How about Magus Orthan Trysst, and Primus Vorgan Trysst, where should they go?

Also, could anyone give me a ballpark of what the points total for two knights optimally kitted out would be (without breaking forum rules of course)? I know the broodkin is 600. I just want to get an idea of what points level this army will be at.

Also, do you think I need to add a fortification? If so, which one?

And lastly, do you think this is a good combination? Fluffwise I think it could work, but actual battlefield synergy, will it work?

I appreciate any thought or insights!

Not a single opinion or thought?

It's fluffy, go for it. You already have the Renegade Knight rules, which are currently better than the regular Knight rules, so have fun!

SJ

Not really all that fluffy. Unless you plan to buggify the Knights in some way. Paint them with iconography of the 4 Armed Emperor, maybe.

Also you are going to be dealing with nominal 3 factions: Imperial, Chaos, GSC. In Practice you have 2 factions that are Come the Apoc. So be aware of that problem. Next the Cults are really your objective takers. Your many attack power is going be the Knights.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
It's fluffy, go for it. You already have the Renegade Knight rules, which are currently better than the regular Knight rules, so have fun!

SJ

I haven't received my Renegade set yet, so I don't have any rules.

The Deathwatch Overkill set didn't come with 40K rules, just the game rules. I had to get a PDF for the Broodkin rules. Does Renegade come with 40K rules?

EDIT: Cool, now I see. Thanks!




Automatically Appended Next Post:

barnowl wrote:
Not really all that fluffy. Unless you plan to buggify the Knights in some way. Paint them with iconography of the 4 Armed Emperor, maybe.

Also you are going to be dealing with nominal 3 factions: Imperial, Chaos, GSC. In Practice you have 2 factions that are Come the Apoc. So be aware of that problem. Next the Cults are really your objective takers. Your many attack power is going be the Knights.

It's fluffy in the sense that the cult were once human subjects of the imperium, and might have had access to imperial knights before they turned.

I mean, there really aren't any good ally choices for the tyranids at all. None that serve the fluff, except for the cult, but apparently they are not battle brothers, which makes no sense, but fine.

The cult however at least has some claim on virtually any aspect of the imperium, except for the obvious factions.

And I don't plan on bugifying the knights.

Yeah, the nids seem to be come the apocalypse all around.

I think I'll send some of the nids up on alpha strike, and then camp with the faithful throng and Magus Orthan Trysst., and then move the knights up on the other flank.

What do you think about a fortification? I don't really need reserve manipulation. But who knows?

It's fluffy because there actually is a Knight House that is a Genestealer cult. Can't get much more fluffy than that.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
It's fluffy because there actually is a Knight House that is a Genestealer cult. Can't get much more fluffy than that.

SJ

I have seen that elsewhere on the forum, but I can't find it anywhere. do you know the source?

House Mortimer, who's sigil is a purple Tyranid bioform on a yellow background. First appearence was in White Dwarf 126 (UK).

SJ

Cool. House Mortimer. So it is very fluffy. I'm definitely going to paint them up as House Mortimer. I might even start using them with my regular tyranid army to shake things up a bit. Kind of bored with the 5 flyrant build

Ok, so as for tactics go, I was thinking putting the knights on one flank and marching them up the board, and the cult on the other, obviously staying for enough away from each other, but close enough to render support.

I was thinking of putting the Patriarch and the Primus in the Favored Disciples, and try for a first round assault along with the Purestrain and the Brothers Abberant. It would be nice to hit three different targets on the first round.

The Magus would go with the Faithful Throng, infiltrating onto an objective and camping there, close enough to the enemy so that the mining lasers would be in range of some juicy targets.

What do you think? Does it sound like a solid plan?

Also, should I stick with the Renegade Knights rules, or go with regular Imperial Knights. Is their any benefit to either. I assume they are both come the apocalypse, so I want to go with the best rule set.

Thanks again for all of the input and insight!

 LemanRuse wrote:

Cool. House Mortimer. So it is very fluffy. I'm definitely going to paint them up as House Mortimer. I might even start using them with my regular tyranid army to shake things up a bit. Kind of bored with the 5 flyrant build

Ok, so as for tactics go, I was thinking putting the knights on one flank and marching them up the board, and the cult on the other, obviously staying for enough away from each other, but close enough to render support.

I was thinking of putting the Patriarch and the Primus in the Favored Disciples, and try for a first round assault along with the Purestrain and the Brothers Abberant. It would be nice to hit three different targets on the first round.

The Magus would go with the Faithful Throng, infiltrating onto an objective and camping there, close enough to the enemy so that the mining lasers would be in range of some juicy targets.

What do you think? Does it sound like a solid plan?

Also, should I stick with the Renegade Knights rules, or go with regular Imperial Knights. Is their any benefit to either. I assume they are both come the apocalypse, so I want to go with the best rule set.

Thanks again for all of the input and insight!

well the normal imperial knights have formations but your unlikely to make use of these so go with the renegade knight as you can double up on weapons so double avenger Gatling cannon (my favourite) the loss of strength d is bad against other superheavies but you still get stomps and strength 10 ap2 attacks so still plenty capable in combat

Sqauwky wrote:

 LemanRuse wrote:

Cool. House Mortimer. So it is very fluffy. I'm definitely going to paint them up as House Mortimer. I might even start using them with my regular tyranid army to shake things up a bit. Kind of bored with the 5 flyrant build

Ok, so as for tactics go, I was thinking putting the knights on one flank and marching them up the board, and the cult on the other, obviously staying for enough away from each other, but close enough to render support.

I was thinking of putting the Patriarch and the Primus in the Favored Disciples, and try for a first round assault along with the Purestrain and the Brothers Abberant. It would be nice to hit three different targets on the first round.

The Magus would go with the Faithful Throng, infiltrating onto an objective and camping there, close enough to the enemy so that the mining lasers would be in range of some juicy targets.

What do you think? Does it sound like a solid plan?

Also, should I stick with the Renegade Knights rules, or go with regular Imperial Knights. Is their any benefit to either. I assume they are both come the apocalypse, so I want to go with the best rule set.

Thanks again for all of the input and insight!

well the normal imperial knights have formations but your unlikely to make use of these so go with the renegade knight as you can double up on weapons so double avenger Gatling cannon (my favourite) the loss of strength d is bad against other superheavies but you still get stomps and strength 10 ap2 attacks so still plenty capable in combat

Yeah, I agree with you. Thank you for your input. This has been a very informative thread!

And fluff wise, it makes more sense that the cult would have renegade knights. Not saying the tyranids have any relation to chaos, but the cult's knights would definitely be considered renegade in the eyes of the imperium. That double avenger cannon build is pretty cool. I plan on magnetizing the weapons.

I'm really looking forward to modelling the knights. This will be my first magnetized job.



A shout-out and thanks to SJ for the info on House Mortimer.


Thank you all!

I actually like playing Knights with Spore pods, for AA and screening.

SJ

 LemanRuse wrote:

I just bought the Deathwatch Overkill boxed set, and the Imperial Knights Renegade boxed set, and I have a few tactics and army composition questions that I was hoping dakka could help me with.

I plan on running the Ghosar Quintus Broodkin formation and the two knights. Seems fluffy

How does this seem fluffy?

 Spyro_Killer wrote:

 LemanRuse wrote:

I just bought the Deathwatch Overkill boxed set, and the Imperial Knights Renegade boxed set, and I have a few tactics and army composition questions that I was hoping dakka could help me with.

I plan on running the Ghosar Quintus Broodkin formation and the two knights. Seems fluffy

How does this seem fluffy?

Read the thread.

It has already been established that there is a Knight House that is a Genestealer Cult, which makes allying Knights and the Cult fluffy, no?

Of course I didn't know that when I started the thread. My reasoning that it was fluffy is that Genestealer Cult were Imperial loyalists before they turned to the Hive Mind, so it would stand to reason that they would have access to Imperial weapons and forces, such as the Guard and yes, even Imperial Knights. Things and forces that would comprise a planetary defense force. Not space marines and definitely not inquisition and assassins, but I think Guard and IKs would be fluffy allies for the Genestealer Cult just by virtue of what they are or more accurately, what they once were.

But it was definitely serendipitous to find out that Imperial Knights House Mortimer is a Genestealer Cult, which definitely establishes fluff credibility.

And I will be running the Knights as Renegade Knights. While they will not be "chaos", Knights controlled by a house that is a Genestealer Cult would definitely be considered "Renegades" in the broadest sense of the word.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
House Mortimer, who's sigil is a purple Tyranid bioform on a yellow background. First appearence was in White Dwarf 126 (UK).

SJ

If by "first appearance", you mean "only appearance ever".

 Kanluwen wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
House Mortimer, who's sigil is a purple Tyranid bioform on a yellow background. First appearence was in White Dwarf 126 (UK).

SJ

If by "first appearance", you mean "only appearance ever".

Actually, I read in a blog that house Mortimer has been around since the Epic 40K days when Knights were first introduced, but that is hardly a high level source, but if true, it means they have been a part of the 40K universe for a few decades.

But to be fair, It's not just House Mortimer that lacks background information. There isn't really that much background information on ANY of the Knight houses out there. I haven't read the Knights codex. Does it go into detail about the various houses?

 LemanRuse wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
House Mortimer, who's sigil is a purple Tyranid bioform on a yellow background. First appearence was in White Dwarf 126 (UK).

SJ

If by "first appearance", you mean "only appearance ever".

Actually, I read in a blog that house Mortimer has been around since the Epic 40K days when Knights were first introduced, but that is hardly a high level source, but if true, it means they have been a part of the 40K universe for a few decades.

But to be fair, It's not just House Mortimer that lacks background information. There isn't really that much background information on ANY of the Knight houses out there. I haven't read the Knights codex. Does it go into detail about the various houses?

There's actually a decent amount of information on the currently "named" Houses in the Knight codex. It goes into about as much detail as one would expect, giving brief rundowns on a handful of Houses. There's also the Imperial Knight Heraldry book(a great resource IMO).

Mortimer never gets mentioned, as far as I can tell, in either Knight codex.
Lexicanum, a kind of wiki for 40k, has WD126 as the only appearance of House Mortimer.

Regarding the fluff aspect, Knights are not part of a planet's command structure. A planet having a genestealer infestation does not mean that there would be Cult Knights.

Tactically? There isn't really much to discuss here. It's adding Knights to Genestealer Cultists; you're looking at Come the Apocalypse at best meaning that you'll have to make sure to deploy them away from the Cultists.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 LemanRuse wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
House Mortimer, who's sigil is a purple Tyranid bioform on a yellow background. First appearence was in White Dwarf 126 (UK).

SJ

If by "first appearance", you mean "only appearance ever".

Actually, I read in a blog that house Mortimer has been around since the Epic 40K days when Knights were first introduced, but that is hardly a high level source, but if true, it means they have been a part of the 40K universe for a few decades.

But to be fair, It's not just House Mortimer that lacks background information. There isn't really that much background information on ANY of the Knight houses out there. I haven't read the Knights codex. Does it go into detail about the various houses?

There's actually a decent amount of information on the currently "named" Houses in the Knight codex. It goes into about as much detail as one would expect, giving brief rundowns on a handful of Houses. There's also the Imperial Knight Heraldry book(a great resource IMO).

Mortimer never gets mentioned, as far as I can tell, in either Knight codex.
Lexicanum, a kind of wiki for 40k, has WD126 as the only appearance of House Mortimer.

Regarding the fluff aspect, Knights are not part of a planet's command structure. A planet having a genestealer infestation does not mean that there would be Cult Knights.

No but all of that being said, since there is a House Mortimer, and it is a Genestealer Cult, is it safe to say having Imperial Knights and Genestealer Cult allied together is fluffy? Doesn't rally matter how many times they have been mentioned. The fact that they were mentioned at all in a GW publication is enough for me.

I'm glad that there is at least some aspect of fluff when allying them, but in all honesty, I just wanted an excuse to put some Knights in my army. Right now all I have is Tyranids (and the genestealer cult), and I don't really think they even remotely fit in a regular tyranid army, but I think it at least passes the sniff test in the cult. I don't see it as being much different than allying guard and using guard tanks.

Of course everyone has a right to their opinion.

Yeah, well that same era of GW publications had Leman Russ being just an Imperial commander.

Nothing I can find about House Mortimer suggests that they are still considered canon. From what I understand of that point in time though, the Knight Houses were not the same thing as they are now. What you're wanting is a Genestealer Cult somehow commanding an entire planet including Knight House--which is a very different setup to just a Knight House that has been influenced by a Cult(which is a bit more believable, if still stretching it, considering the current fluff climate has many of the Houses engaged in conflicts against the Hive Fleets so they likely know what to be on the look out for).

I really don't know why you put this in the Tactics section, as it seems all you really wanted was a pat on the back and to be told that it's okay to do this, fluffwise.

Do whatever you want. They're your models. I, personally, wouldn't enjoy playing against it as it seems to be a bit of a "have your cake and eat it too" thing.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Yeah, well that same era of GW publications had Leman Russ being just an Imperial commander.

Nothing I can find about House Mortimer suggests that they are still considered canon. From what I understand of that point in time though, the Knight Houses were not the same thing as they are now. What you're wanting is a Genestealer Cult somehow commanding an entire planet including Knight House--which is a very different setup to just a Knight House that has been influenced by a Cult(which is a bit more believable, if still stretching it, considering the current fluff climate has many of the Houses engaged in conflicts against the Hive Fleets so they likely know what to be on the look out for).

I really don't know why you put this in the Tactics section, as it seems all you really wanted was a pat on the back and to be told that it's okay to do this, fluffwise.

Do whatever you want. They're your models. I, personally, wouldn't enjoy playing against it as it seems to be a bit of a "have your cake and eat it too" thing.

I asked plenty of tactics questions, like what ICs should go with which units, how I should use the cult and the knights and how to eqip the renegade knights. No one really answered them, including yourself. You've pretty much been focused on how unfluffy the army is because House Mortimer has only been mentioned once.

I really had no desire to get in arguments over whether it was fluffy or not.

No need to get all pissy about it.

Does the current IK kit even come with parts to build a double-Avenger? I know the Renegade Knight added the option, but I don't recall the one Knight I ever bought having the bits for it.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Yeah, well that same era of GW publications had Leman Russ being just an Imperial commander.

Nothing I can find about House Mortimer suggests that they are still considered canon. From what I understand of that point in time though, the Knight Houses were not the same thing as they are now. What you're wanting is a Genestealer Cult somehow commanding an entire planet including Knight House--which is a very different setup to just a Knight House that has been influenced by a Cult(which is a bit more believable, if still stretching it, considering the current fluff climate has many of the Houses engaged in conflicts against the Hive Fleets so they likely know what to be on the look out for).

I really don't know why you put this in the Tactics section, as it seems all you really wanted was a pat on the back and to be told that it's okay to do this, fluffwise.

Do whatever you want. They're your models. I, personally, wouldn't enjoy playing against it as it seems to be a bit of a "have your cake and eat it too" thing.

Considering the both Cryptus and Ghosar are both planets either fully ruled by Cults or had Cult members/sympathizers at the highest levels, and current canon, it is very believable. Heck, Cyrptus was a Shieldworld of Baal. If Cults were easy to spot you would think the Blood Angels would have noticed.

I remember Mortimer from the epic days, forgot they were a Cult House. the Knights were the same back then. In fact all the "new" knights are just standard 40k getting models for old Epic units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Does the current IK kit even come with parts to build a double-Avenger? I know the Renegade Knight added the option, but I don't recall the one Knight I ever bought having the bits for it.

Parts for atleast one are in the new 2 Knight game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LemanRuse wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 LemanRuse wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
House Mortimer, who's sigil is a purple Tyranid bioform on a yellow background. First appearence was in White Dwarf 126 (UK).

SJ

If by "first appearance", you mean "only appearance ever".

Actually, I read in a blog that house Mortimer has been around since the Epic 40K days when Knights were first introduced, but that is hardly a high level source, but if true, it means they have been a part of the 40K universe for a few decades.

But to be fair, It's not just House Mortimer that lacks background information. There isn't really that much background information on ANY of the Knight houses out there. I haven't read the Knights codex. Does it go into detail about the various houses?

There's actually a decent amount of information on the currently "named" Houses in the Knight codex. It goes into about as much detail as one would expect, giving brief rundowns on a handful of Houses. There's also the Imperial Knight Heraldry book(a great resource IMO).

Mortimer never gets mentioned, as far as I can tell, in either Knight codex.
Lexicanum, a kind of wiki for 40k, has WD126 as the only appearance of House Mortimer.

Regarding the fluff aspect, Knights are not part of a planet's command structure. A planet having a genestealer infestation does not mean that there would be Cult Knights.

No but all of that being said, since there is a House Mortimer, and it is a Genestealer Cult, is it safe to say having Imperial Knights and Genestealer Cult allied together is fluffy? Doesn't rally matter how many times they have been mentioned. The fact that they were mentioned at all in a GW publication is enough for me.

I'm glad that there is at least some aspect of fluff when allying them, but in all honesty, I just wanted an excuse to put some Knights in my army. Right now all I have is Tyranids (and the genestealer cult), and I don't really think they even remotely fit in a regular tyranid army, but I think it at least passes the sniff test in the cult. I don't see it as being much different than allying guard and using guard tanks.

Of course everyone has a right to their opinion.

Cults fit in well with non-MC spam nid lists, especailly Vanguard type lists. Unfortunately stealer heavy lists are not as strong as they could be thanks to losing player turn one charges and charges out of reserve for codex units. Though if you go second you can still get some game turn one charges off.

Allying Nids and Knights has been a thing since Knights were introduced to 40k a few years ago, but have been in the fluff since Knights were added to Epic decades ago. The original Knight fluff has Knights herding mega-fauna, Nids have always been the ready source of mega-fauna in 40k. Pairing up Knights with a screen of Nids is a thing. Knights and spores is a thing. Knights and Stealer Cults is a decades old thing. There is no argument fluff wise, and the game rules already alow it.

Tactically speaking, the Nids fulfill the screening and objectives roles for the IKs, while the IKs fill the heavy hitting and agro roles for the Nids.

SJ

Looking at the rules for the rapid-fire battle cannon, I'm surprised no one uses it on the renegade double weapon build. That's like 4 leman russ battle cannons. Seems like that could do some damage, no?

Maybe I am missing something.

 LemanRuse wrote:


Looking at the rules for the rapid-fire battle cannon, I'm surprised no one uses it on the renegade double weapon build. That's like 4 leman russ battle cannons. Seems like that could do some damage, no?

Maybe I am missing something.

Battle cannons stopped being good a couple years ago.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 LemanRuse wrote:


Looking at the rules for the rapid-fire battle cannon, I'm surprised no one uses it on the renegade double weapon build. That's like 4 leman russ battle cannons. Seems like that could do some damage, no?

Maybe I am missing something.

Battle cannons stopped being good a couple years ago.

Why? I'm new to this edition. People don't use the leman russ anymore?

Is it the scatter?

Or is it just because other things are much better?

I'm not really in a hyper-competitive meta, and I am rusty, so please elaborate.

 LemanRuse wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 LemanRuse wrote:


Looking at the rules for the rapid-fire battle cannon, I'm surprised no one uses it on the renegade double weapon build. That's like 4 leman russ battle cannons. Seems like that could do some damage, no?

Maybe I am missing something.

Battle cannons stopped being good a couple years ago.

Why? I'm new to this edition. People don't use the leman russ anymore?

Is it the scatter?

Or is it just because other things are much better?

I'm not really in a hyper-competitive meta, and I am rusty, so please elaborate.

Battle cannons are bad because they stopped having units they are good at killing

They suck against vehicles because you you need to deal multiple hull points and a single hit from a blast won't do that (it can't even roll an explode or wrecked result from a penetrating hit anymore)

They suck against MCs because you only get 1 hit so might do a wound per blast (assuming they don't have invul or cover which is common now)

They suck against infantry because 4+ cover is so easy to get. Not to mention that it's prettyeasy to make them more durable with psyker powers and such

Fact of the matter is that the LRBT variant is the worst variant of all the Leman Russes (and they aren't even that great at their best because of how weak vehicles generally are)

Also in the Imperial Knight's case the Gatling Gun outclasses the Rapid-fire Battle Cannon it almost every situation.

It's also the fact that it can't snap fire.

Depending on the level of "competitiveness" of the environment you play in, people tend to obsess over Invisibility because the psychic power (or the assorted equivalents thereof in codex rules like the Callidus, Deathleaper, the Ghostkeel's Holophoton Countermeasures, the Phantasmancy - Harlequin - psychic powers, and probably a few others I'm forgetting) can completely prevent it shooting. Equally, if you can't snap fire, you can't engage flyers or (under normal circumstances) flying monstrous creatures. Which can cost you against armies consisting of a swarm of Winged Hive Tyrants or Winged Daemon Princes, both of which are much-hyped units in their respective army lists.

locarno24 wrote:
It's also the fact that it can't snap fire.

Depending on the level of "competitiveness" of the environment you play in, people tend to obsess over Invisibility because the psychic power (or the assorted equivalents thereof in codex rules like the Callidus, Deathleaper, the Ghostkeel's Holophoton Countermeasures, the Phantasmancy - Harlequin - psychic powers, and probably a few others I'm forgetting) can completely prevent it shooting. Equally, if you can't snap fire, you can't engage flyers or (under normal circumstances) flying monstrous creatures. Which can cost you against armies consisting of a swarm of Winged Hive Tyrants or Winged Daemon Princes, both of which are much-hyped units in their respective army lists.

Ok, I agree that the snapfire thing is a pretty big deal.

Thanks for bringing that to my attention.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 LemanRuse wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 LemanRuse wrote:


Looking at the rules for the rapid-fire battle cannon, I'm surprised no one uses it on the renegade double weapon build. That's like 4 leman russ battle cannons. Seems like that could do some damage, no?

Maybe I am missing something.

Battle cannons stopped being good a couple years ago.

Why? I'm new to this edition. People don't use the leman russ anymore?

Is it the scatter?

Or is it just because other things are much better?

I'm not really in a hyper-competitive meta, and I am rusty, so please elaborate.

Battle cannons are bad because they stopped having units they are good at killing

They suck against vehicles because you you need to deal multiple hull points and a single hit from a blast won't do that (it can't even roll an explode or wrecked result from a penetrating hit anymore)

They suck against MCs because you only get 1 hit so might do a wound per blast (assuming they don't have invul or cover which is common now)

They suck against infantry because 4+ cover is so easy to get. Not to mention that it's prettyeasy to make them more durable with psyker powers and such

Fact of the matter is that the LRBT variant is the worst variant of all the Leman Russes (and they aren't even that great at their best because of how weak vehicles generally are)

Also in the Imperial Knight's case the Gatling Gun outclasses the Rapid-fire Battle Cannon it almost every situation.

You make some good points.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Just picked up another Renegade boxed set (I can't ignore a great deal!) and I picked up an Avenger Gatling cannon sprue off ebay.

Thanks for all of the advice!!