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I have a suspicion that alot of this semi-pro-homosexual stuff coming out of the Catholic Church is really damage control. Just maybe, the institution may have realized that their members have moved beyond them on this issue, and perhaps they fear that continuing to support the repression of civil rights for homosexuals (as supported by historical Christianity) may lead to mass exodus from the modern Catholic Church, as homosexuals and their families may seek to meet their demand for religion by joining a more tolerant sect.

Without ripping or supporting some of the comments I've seen so far, I'll just say it...I love me some Pope Francis!

 jasper76 wrote:
I have a suspicion that alot of this semi-pro-homosexual stuff coming out of the Catholic Church is really damage control. Just maybe, the institution may have realized that their members have moved beyond them on this issue, and perhaps they fear that continuing to support the repression of civil rights for homosexuals (as supported by historical Christianity) may lead to mass exodus from the modern Catholic Church, as homosexuals and their families may seek to meet their demand for religion by joining a more tolerant sect.

I do wonder if the cardinals got what they wanted. Perhaps this one is a bit too progressive, so the next half dozen will be utter reactionaries. Unless of course God did the choosing, in which case He presumably knew exactly what He was getting.

Also, 'semi-pro-homosexual' sounds like someone who is working on his game

 jasper76 wrote:
I have a suspicion that alot of this semi-pro-homosexual stuff coming out of the Catholic Church is really damage control. Just maybe, the institution may have realized that their members have moved beyond them on this issue, and perhaps they fear that continuing to support the repression of civil rights for homosexuals (as supported by historical Christianity) may lead to mass exodus from the modern Catholic Church, as homosexuals and their families may seek to meet their demand for religion by joining a more tolerant sect.

I think it has more to do with damage control for the child molestation crimes. Everyone knows about the Catholic priests that are/were homosexual pedophiles so the Catholic Church already has ordained homosexuals in its ranks. If the Church is already ordaining homosexuals and then actively protecting them and keeping them in the clergy even when they're found to be molesting children it makes it very difficult and hypocritical for the Church to not let homosexuals be parishioners.

I hadn't even thought about how the child rape scandal might be playing into this, to be honest.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Darkjim wrote:

Also, 'semi-pro-homosexual' sounds like someone who is working on his game

That's not what I was going for...but your definition is much, much better

 jasper76 wrote:
I hadn't even thought about how the child rape scandal might play into this, to be honest.

It my not, it's just a guess on my part but it seems like it's a bigger issue for the church than increasing the number of homosexual Catholics since only 3-4% of people are homosexual and the subset of those that want to Catholic probably isn't that large.

I think it's good public relations for the church and aligns with what I was taught to be proper Christian behavior but I was raised Protestant so I'm no expert on Catholicism.

I did 4 years of catholic school. So when I say this is a turn for the better, it really is.

 jasper76 wrote:
I have a suspicion that alot of this semi-pro-homosexual stuff coming out of the Catholic Church is really damage control. Just maybe, the institution may have realized that their members have moved beyond them on this issue, and continuing to support the repression of civil rights for minorities may lead to mass exodus from the Catholic Church, as homosexuals and their families may seek to meet their demand for religion by joining a more tolerant sect.

I think it is being overestimated the degree to which the Bible's teaching and various Christian denomination's standing on homosexual behavior is a wedge issue or is the cause celebre that ultimately leads individuals to reject Christ and His Church. Speaking for myself, my faith in Jesus Christ does not turn on such a singular question as my Church's attitude towards one specific sin and those that unrepentantly commit such sin. As anecdotal evidence, homosexual behavior is not a focus of the congregation I belong to, but instead when discussed is always in the context of it being symptomatic of the fallen world we live in and how it along with a whole host of temptations of the flesh ultimately negatively impacts our relationship with God and others. Instead I am more concerned with my Church's attitude toward serving God by how we work to fulfill the great commission (Matthew 28:16-20) ,and by serving and loving the least (Matthew 25:31-46), and the two commandments by which hang all the law and the prophets (Matthew 22:36-40).

There are plenty of warnings in the Bible in both the Old and New Testament (e.g. Exodus Ch. 23:2-3, Proverbs 1:10-15, Acts 5:29, Galatians 1:10, Romans 12:2) about essentially kowtowing to what seems to be popular, or trendy, or easy that put us at odds with God good plan for us (one of my personal favorites Jeremiah 29:11). Correspondingly we are warned over and over that because of our faith we will be hated and persecuted (e.g. John 15:18, 2 Timothy 3:12, 1 John 3:13).

As sinners we all have a lot to apologize for to God and to each other. In fact, it is that repentance that is central to God's plan for our salvation. If Pope Francis wants to offer a collective apology on behalf of the members of the Catholic Church and Universal Christianity for its un-Christian behavior towards other sinners, good for him as humility and love is key to repentance. If it helps soften the hearts of those who are lost or think that they are not redeemable, and helps lead them to Christ, then again, Pope Francis is on point.

Conversely If he is doing it to be more popular, as damage control, and to gain the worlds approval (1 John 2:15) and in course deny Biblical truth and lead people astray from what is right in God's sight, then that is a problem and we should pray that the Holy Spirit would intercede to set his heart right and help him speak God's truth.

I offer praise to God for His Word and Son Jesus Christ. I pray that God would heal whatever hurt, pain, or suffering homosexuals are experiencing and that they would see that despite what they may have done, that Jesus Christ died for them that they too may be saved. That through faith in Jesus Christ they too shall have eternal life. I pray also that those who speak and treat the lost with hate and condemnation find peace and mercy. I also ask for forgiveness for myself as I too am a sinner and that the words I have written have not offended my Lord God. That through me or in spite of me that God's will be done. Amen.

He's a good man that seems to care about the world and his flock.

If you hate him, then you support ISIL and probably vote Green Party.

/False Analogy Fallacy

 Lord of Deeds wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
I have a suspicion that alot of this semi-pro-homosexual stuff coming out of the Catholic Church is really damage control. Just maybe, the institution may have realized that their members have moved beyond them on this issue, and continuing to support the repression of civil rights for minorities may lead to mass exodus from the Catholic Church, as homosexuals and their families may seek to meet their demand for religion by joining a more tolerant sect.

I think it is being overestimated the degree to which the Bible's teaching and various Christian denomination's standing on homosexual behavior is a wedge issue or is the cause celebre that ultimately leads individuals to reject Christ and His Church. Speaking for myself, my faith in Jesus Christ does not turn on such a singular question as my Church's attitude towards one specific sin and those that unrepentantly commit such sin. As anecdotal evidence, homosexual behavior is not a focus of the congregation I belong to, but instead when discussed is always in the context of it being symptomatic of the fallen world we live in and how it along with a whole host of temptations of the flesh ultimately negatively impacts our relationship with God and others. Instead I am more concerned with my Church's attitude toward serving God by how we work to fulfill the great commission (Matthew 28:16-20) ,and by serving and loving the least (Matthew 25:31-46), and the two commandments by which hang all the law and the prophets (Matthew 22:36-40).

There are plenty of warnings in the Bible in both the Old and New Testament (e.g. Exodus Ch. 23:2-3, Proverbs 1:10-15, Acts 5:29, Galatians 1:10, Romans 12:2) about essentially kowtowing to what seems to be popular, or trendy, or easy that put us at odds with God good plan for us (one of my personal favorites Jeremiah 29:11). Correspondingly we are warned over and over that because of our faith we will be hated and persecuted (e.g. John 15:18, 2 Timothy 3:12, 1 John 3:13).

As sinners we all have a lot to apologize for to God and to each other. In fact, it is that repentance that is central to God's plan for our salvation. If Pope Francis wants to offer a collective apology on behalf of the members of the Catholic Church and Universal Christianity for its un-Christian behavior towards other sinners, good for him as humility and love is key to repentance. If it helps soften the hearts of those who are lost or think that they are not redeemable, and helps lead them to Christ, then again, Pope Francis is on point.

Conversely If he is doing it to be more popular, as damage control, and to gain the worlds approval (1 John 2:15) and in course deny Biblical truth and lead people astray from what is right in God's sight, then that is a problem and we should pray that the Holy Spirit would intercede to set his heart right and help him speak God's truth.

I offer praise to God for His Word and Son Jesus Christ. I pray that God would heal whatever hurt, pain, or suffering homosexuals are experiencing and that they would see that despite what they may have done, that Jesus Christ died for them that they too may be saved. That through faith in Jesus Christ they too shall have eternal life. I pray also that those who speak and treat the lost with hate and condemnation find peace and mercy. I also ask for forgiveness for myself as I too am a sinner and that the words I have written have not offended my Lord God. That through me or in spite of me that God's will be done. Amen.

I'm 100% positive he is doing it to bring the church back in line with the teaching of yall's deity. Love they neighbor and all that. You do not have to agree with someone to treat them with respect, which is exactly the opposite of what has been happening.

 Lord of Deeds wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
I have a suspicion that alot of this semi-pro-homosexual stuff coming out of the Catholic Church is really damage control. Just maybe, the institution may have realized that their members have moved beyond them on this issue, and continuing to support the repression of civil rights for minorities may lead to mass exodus from the Catholic Church, as homosexuals and their families may seek to meet their demand for religion by joining a more tolerant sect.

I think it is being overestimated the degree to which the Bible's teaching and various Christian denomination's standing on homosexual behavior is a wedge issue or is the cause celebre that ultimately leads individuals to reject Christ and His Church. Speaking for myself, my faith in Jesus Christ does not turn on such a singular question as my Church's attitude towards one specific sin and those that unrepentantly commit such sin. As anecdotal evidence, homosexual behavior is not a focus of the congregation I belong to, but instead when discussed is always in the context of it being symptomatic of the fallen world we live in and how it along with a whole host of temptations of the flesh ultimately negatively impacts our relationship with God and others. Instead I am more concerned with my Church's attitude toward serving God by how we work to fulfill the great commission (Matthew 28:16-20) ,and by serving and loving the least (Matthew 25:31-46), and the two commandments by which hang all the law and the prophets (Matthew 22:36-40).

There are plenty of warnings in the Bible in both the Old and New Testament (e.g. Exodus Ch. 23:2-3, Proverbs 1:10-15, Acts 5:29, Galatians 1:10, Romans 12:2) about essentially kowtowing to what seems to be popular, or trendy, or easy that put us at odds with God good plan for us (one of my personal favorites Jeremiah 29:11). Correspondingly we are warned over and over that because of our faith we will be hated and persecuted (e.g. John 15:18, 2 Timothy 3:12, 1 John 3:13).

As sinners we all have a lot to apologize for to God and to each other. In fact, it is that repentance that is central to God's plan for our salvation. If Pope Francis wants to offer a collective apology on behalf of the members of the Catholic Church and Universal Christianity for its un-Christian behavior towards other sinners, good for him as humility and love is key to repentance. If it helps soften the hearts of those who are lost or think that they are not redeemable, and helps lead them to Christ, then again, Pope Francis is on point.

Conversely If he is doing it to be more popular, as damage control, and to gain the worlds approval (1 John 2:15) and in course deny Biblical truth and lead people astray from what is right in God's sight, then that is a problem and we should pray that the Holy Spirit would intercede to set his heart right and help him speak God's truth.

I offer praise to God for His Word and Son Jesus Christ. I pray that God would heal whatever hurt, pain, or suffering homosexuals are experiencing and that they would see that despite what they may have done, that Jesus Christ died for them that they too may be saved. That through faith in Jesus Christ they too shall have eternal life. I pray also that those who speak and treat the lost with hate and condemnation find peace and mercy. I also ask for forgiveness for myself as I too am a sinner and that the words I have written have not offended my Lord God. That through me or in spite of me that God's will be done. Amen.

It's time for some self-evaluation, I think. You want homosexuals to be free from hate and condemnation, yet you refer to them as "sinners" and "lost", presumably because of the orientation they were either born with or developed into.

It feels to me like Pope Francis talks a lot about change, yet he dosent really do much to change things, even the ones happening right at the Vatican.

Or even better treat others like : people. Like individuals, doesn't matter of race, creed, sexuality, or identity, just treat them with care and like you would be liked to be treated, and be rational.

 jasper76 wrote:


It's time for some self-evaluation, I think. You want homosexuals to be free from hate and condemnation, yet you refer to them as "sinners" and "lost", presumably because of the orientation they were either born with or developed into.

I do not believe myself superior to anyone (Christian, non-Christian, sinner or saint) because of my faith but only count it as a joy, a joy that I earnestly wish everyone could experience. I freely admit I still struggle with sin and temptation which is why Church, fellowship with fellow believers, study, pray and worship is so important to my Christian walk.

Being a sinner and lost is not exclusive to homosexuals and it was not my intent to imply such. We all sin and fall short. I do believe in original sin and that we are fallen until saved, so arguing whether or not someone is born homosexual I think is moot. I also realize that inherent with original sin is the denial, hurt, shame, and anger we experience when confronted with our sin, especially when confronted in a fashion that seems driven by hate and fear as opposed to love and grace. It is this seeming propensity for the former that I think Pope Francis was speaking of in his counsel.

 Lord of Deeds wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:


It's time for some self-evaluation, I think. You want homosexuals to be free from hate and condemnation, yet you refer to them as "sinners" and "lost", presumably because of the orientation they were either born with or developed into.

I do not believe myself superior to anyone (Christian, non-Christian, sinner or saint) because of my faith but only count it as a joy, a joy that I earnestly wish everyone could experience. I freely admit I still struggle with sin and temptation which is why Church, fellowship with fellow believers, study, pray and worship is so important to my Christian walk.

Being a sinner and lost is not exclusive to homosexuals and it was not my intent to imply such. We all sin and fall short. I do believe in original sin and that we are fallen until saved, so arguing whether or not someone is born homosexual I think is moot. I also realize that inherent with original sin is the denial, hurt, shame, and anger we experience when confronted with our sin, especially when confronted in a fashion that seems driven by hate and fear as opposed to love and grace. It is this seeming propensity for the former that I think Pope Francis was speaking of in his counsel.

OK, while I don't agree with your worldview, it was wrong of me to imply that you reserved some special animus for homosexuals.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Or even better treat others like : people. Like individuals, doesn't matter of race, creed, sexuality, or identity, just treat them with care and like you would be liked to be treated, and be rational.

Madness!

Although really. I am happy to be teaching my toddler the first and most important social rule:

If you can't affect someone else positively and/or enrich their life, leave them the hell alone.

Well, at least he claims he doesn't. I dont see him complaining about an increase in shellfish harvesting. Or complaining on men having their hair too short or long.

If your god's morality says that it is wrong to be gay, why did your god make people gay?

The cop out argument is always that they are making the wrong choice to be gay, not that God made them that way. Which is completely passing the buck on an uncomfortable and deep question about faith in a supreme being, I would say.

 jasper76 wrote:
I have a suspicion that alot of this semi-pro-homosexual stuff coming out of the Catholic Church is really damage control. Just maybe, the institution may have realized that their members have moved beyond them on this issue, and perhaps they fear that continuing to support the repression of civil rights for homosexuals (as supported by historical Christianity) may lead to mass exodus from the modern Catholic Church, as homosexuals and their families may seek to meet their demand for religion by joining a more tolerant sect.

Similar to how I feel. Like at the time he was made the pope, the church had no other option if they wanted to stay in game, really. Its nice that he's supporting worthy viewpoints, but the whole thing feels incredibly fake or forced; designed by committee if you will. Like have you ever been in McDonald's where the racial demographics in the restaurant match their commercials?

I think my favorite part of this pope is after years of dodging accusations of Eurocentrism in the church, especially seeing as such high percentages of their flock being Latino, the church finally picks a Hispanic pope. He just happens to be White and Italian, like several dozen other popes. It made me laugh tremendously at the ridiculousness of it, and I definitely see parallels with Obama, which also made me laugh.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
The cop out argument is always that they are making the wrong choice to be gay, not that God made them that way. Which is completely passing the buck on an uncomfortable and deep question about faith in a supreme being, I would say.

Yep...
1984 ring a bell anyone?

Counter-argument to the idea that this apology means anything: http://www.alternet.org/belief/pope-francis-sham-apology

 Peregrine wrote:
Counter-argument to the idea that this apology means anything: http://www.alternet.org/belief/pope-francis-sham-apology

It's amazing how easy it is to cover up being a horrible person with a few simple remarks isn't it?

 Spinner wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

OgreChubbs wrote:
I still dont like him and never will. He is the churches obama, sorry you are mad at us sorry sorry our bad..... God forbid he mentions any of the good the church did ...ever... God I hate him.

He is kind of a heretic... But the Church, at least the monolithic Catholic Church, really hasn't done a whole lot of good. There is a certain irony when the church is much less tolerant than everyone else.

Do, uh.

Do you mean the Pope?

I believe the Pope is a heretic, yes.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
I believe the Pope is a heretic, yes.

That is a, shall we say, interesting way of looking at it...

 Peregrine wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
I believe the Pope is a heretic, yes.

That is a, shall we say, interesting way of looking at it...

And not because of this topic, my feathered friend. Though I wish he would have altered the wording from "apologizing" to "asking for forgiveness." The Church, which ever sect, has a bad habit of being self-righteous which slowly leads itself to being a donkey-cave.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
And not because of this topic, my feathered friend.

I mean in general. Isn't it supposed to be Catholic doctrine that the pope is God's representative on earth, divinely chosen and inspired? Shouldn't this mean that, in a disagreement between the pope and the ordinary members of the church, the ordinary members are the heretics?

 Peregrine wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
And not because of this topic, my feathered friend.

I mean in general. Isn't it supposed to be Catholic doctrine that the pope is God's representative on earth, divinely chosen and inspired? Shouldn't this mean that, in a disagreement between the pope and the ordinary members of the church, the ordinary members are the heretics?

According to the New Testament, God has no favorites. The notion that the Pope "is God's representative on earth, divinely chosen and inspired" is pretty heretical in my book, which is why I think the Pope is a heretic.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
According to the New Testament, God has no favorites. The notion that the Pope "is God's representative on earth, divinely chosen and inspired" is pretty heretical in my book, which is why I think the Pope is a heretic.

Clarification here please: are you a Catholic, or some other form of Christian?

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
And not because of this topic, my feathered friend.

I mean in general. Isn't it supposed to be Catholic doctrine that the pope is God's representative on earth, divinely chosen and inspired? Shouldn't this mean that, in a disagreement between the pope and the ordinary members of the church, the ordinary members are the heretics?

According to the New Testament, God has no favorites. The notion that the Pope "is God's representative on earth, divinely chosen and inspired" is pretty heretical in my book, which is why I think the Pope is a heretic.

I am a little rusty on my bible, but what about all the people he gave super powers? Jesus, Moses, Samson, Abraham? If he doesn't play favorites, he does it in an odd way.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
According to the New Testament, God has no favorites. The notion that the Pope "is God's representative on earth, divinely chosen and inspired" is pretty heretical in my book, which is why I think the Pope is a heretic.

Clarification here please: are you a Catholic, or some other form of Christian?

I am not Catholic.