German MPs file war crimes suit against Erdogan

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**Soladrin**

I wonder if he's going to call for their arrest too.

http://www.thelocal.de/20160627/german-mps-file-war-crimes-suit-against-erdogan

A group of German politicians and public figures have filed a lawsuit against Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, accusing him of committing war crimes against his country's Kurdish minority.

The suit has been lodged with federal prosecutors in Karlsruhe, the legal team which devised it told state broadcaster ARD on Monday.

Lawyers Britta Eder and Petra Dervishaj told ARD their clients saw it as “a moral duty to bring a suit here in Germany against the systematic war crimes taking place in Turkey.”

The suit, which is 200 pages long, claims Turkey has committed war crimes in Kurdish majority regions of the country, particularly in the city of Cizre in the Sirnak province, where NGOs say some 178 civilians were killed in February while taking shelter in basements, and whose bodies were later found burned up - some perhaps burned alive.

The civilians took cover from Turkish artillery fire in a cellar, according to the suit, but despite calls to emergency services, no doctors or journalists were allowed through to see them.

The bodies of the civilians were later found burned and, according to eyewitnesses, military personnel were seen pouring gasoline into the cellar and setting it alight, the suit claims.

Other eye witnesses cited in the suit say that the soldiers shot and killed civilians before burning the building.

Among those represented in the suit are two people the lawyers say survived war crimes by Turkey, as well as a Turkish MP from the Kurdish party HDP.

Also listed in bringing the suit are Die Linke (Left Party) MPs Ulla Jelpke and Andrej Hunko, several scientists from Germany and other European countries, the composer and actor Konstantin Wecker and refugee aid organizations.

Erdogan is not the only Turkish official whom the suit targets. Ex-prime minister Ahmet Davutoglu and interior minister Efkan Ala, as well as senior members of the police and army.

According to German interpretation of international criminal law, it is possible to file a suit for a crime alleged to have been committed outside the borders of the Bundesrepublik.

“The purpose of this principle is to prevent war crimes and crimes against humanity from going unpunished, no matter where the crime is committed,” the lawyers stated.

Bitter relations

Relations between Germany and Turkey have been bitter in recent months, and this suit is likely to add to the feeling of rancour in Ankara.

After the German Parliament (Bundestag) voted to recognize the massacre of Armenians by Ottoman forces in 1915-16 as a genocide, Ankara recalled its ambassador from Berlin.

But Turkey said on Monday it would allow Germany's defence minister to visit an air base in the south of the country after previously sparking a row by barring a German delegation from making the trip.

Ursula von der Leyen had said on Sunday she would personally visit the Incirlik base, used to launch coalition raids against Isis jihadists in Syria, after Turkey blocked other German politicians from going there.

Ankara had said the scheduled July visit by Germany's state secretary for defence Ralf Brauksiepe and other lawmakers would have been "inappropriate", sparking anger from von der Leyen.

German media reported that the ban was in retaliation for the Bundestag's recognition of the Armenian genocide, but Turkish officials did not confirm this publicly.

"I have never experienced anything like this. It goes without saying that the leadership of the defence ministry should be able to visit German soldiers in the field," von der Leyen told the Bild am Sonntag newspaper.

Turkish Prime Minister Binali Yildirim said at a news conference in Ankara on Monday that her own visit could go ahead.

"Turkey will grant permission," he said.

"The German defence minister can visit Incirlik with ease. There is no problem."

Germany in December agreed to send Tornado surveillance jets and tanker aircraft to Incirlik to aid the multinational coalition fighting Isis in Syria.

**LordofHats**

My concern with Turkey is that it all might be too little too late at this point. Erdogan still has opposition in country, but between ISIS and the European backlash to to his policies and, "connections" shall we say, he's effectively managed to swing it all in his favor domestically. I doubt he'll ever get the grand Ottoman rebirth he wants, but I can't help but feel he's gonna do a good job erasing a lot of the progress Turkey has made since World War I.

**Soladrin**

LordofHats wrote:
My concern with Turkey is that it all might be too little too late at this point. Erdogan still has opposition in country, but between ISIS and the European backlash to to his policies and, "connections" shall we say, he's effectively managed to swing it all in his favor domestically. I doubt he'll ever get the grand Ottoman rebirth he wants, but I can't help but feel he's gonna do a good job erasing a lot of the progress Turkey has made since World War I.

Along with the Kurds.

**LordofHats**

I don't honestly know that the Kurds have made much progress (at least in Turkey) in that time. They've always been treated like crap, and Turkey has swung from "let's just do them like the Armenians" and "well I guess they live here too" over the decades. The Kurds definitely haven't had it this bad though since the last major Turkification wave in 1938. Even when the Turkish government was fighting the PPK in the late 70s and early 80s, they weren't so gung ho when it came to 'indiscriminate firing." But at least since the 60s it seemed like there was some gradual progress on that front up until the mid 2000s.

**Iron_Captain**

Well, at least Erdogan finally said sorry to Putin:
https://www.rt.com/news/348562-putin-erdogan-turkey-pilot/

**DutchWinsAll**

LordofHats wrote:
I don't honestly know that the Kurds have made much progress (at least in Turkey) in that time. They've always been treated like crap, and Turkey has swung from "let's just do them like the Armenians" and "well I guess they live here too" over the decades.

Which while true, is striking, to me at least, as the Kurds were heavily involved in the Armenian genocide during WW1. Did they forget about it? Pretend that it wouldn't happen to them? Buy into the Turkish state lies?

I know the Kurds are a lot of Americans favorite Muslim du jour because they're fighting IS and have a few hundred women in military roles, but I'm really curious to see how any of this will (most likely not) pan out.

**LordofHats**

DutchWinsAll wrote:
Which while true, is striking, to me at least, as the Kurds were heavily involved in the Armenian genocide during WW1. Did they forget about it? Pretend that it wouldn't happen to them? Buy into the Turkish state lies?

Yep. Which of course doesn't mean they "have it coming" or anything like that, but it's really just another lesson that joining the genocidal bandwagon doesn't save you. It just staves off your turn at bat.

I know the Kurds are a lot of Americans favorite Muslim du jour because they're fighting IS and have a few hundred women in military roles, but I'm really curious to see how any of this will (most likely not) pan out.

Probably not at all. The Kurds look good to us in the West mostly by virtue of being punching bags to established political powers of the Middle East (who we happily express out disapproval of). Of course, we ignore that Kurds are no strangers to any of the typical Middle Eastern things we find distasteful including violence against women, terrorism, and sweeping helpings of ethnocentrism and religious/political extremism. I have little doubt now that even when this ISIS thing boils down, the violence will continue because those of us in the West have happily set the stage for a Kurdish War of Independence in the foreseeable future and I highly doubt that'll be any prettier than most of the other ethnic based Middle Eastern wars.

**Frazzled**

While the German MP may be completely accurate, its not his country and he should stay out of the other country's affairs.

**Hanskrampf**

Well, let's see how long it takes till he is (again) threatening to send us all the refugees on turkeys borders after this.

I really don't understand Erdogan, though. He complains about not being able to join the EU, but doesn't want to adhere to its principles.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:
While the German MP may be completely accurate, its not his country and he should stay out of the other country's affairs.

Sorry, but what kind of bs opinion is this? Just let bad stuff happen and go unpunished because it's not in your country? Aren't you regularly for bombing all of the middle east in case there might be some terrorists?

**Frazzled**

Hanskrampf wrote:
Well, let's see how long it takes till he is (again) threatening to send us all the refugees on turkeys borders after this.

I really don't understand Erdogan, though. He complains about not being able to join the EU, but doesn't want to adhere to its principles.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:
While the German MP may be completely accurate, its not his country and he should stay out of the other country's affairs.

Sorry, but what kind of bs opinion is this? Just let bad stuff happen and go unpunished because it's not in your country? Aren't you regularly for bombing all of the middle east in case there might be some terrorists?

No, I am the guy saying we should butt out, abbregate NATO and get the hell out of there.

Germany telling someone else they are bad is choice. What are you going to do, send a harshly worded letter?

**LordofHats**

Hanskrampf wrote:
I really don't understand Erdogan, though. He complains about not being able to join the EU, but doesn't want to adhere to its principles.

That's because he doesn't want to be in the EU. he complains about not being able to join to highlight that Turkey has been trying to join for 29 years. Since making their application, 16 countries have joined, none of which are as economically prosperous as Turkey and a fair many of which are even less politically stable. No country (as far as I know), has sat waiting to enter the EU even remotely as long as Turkey has. And that's really because the EU really doesn't want Turkey to join. For many many issues (Armenian genocide denial, internal political issues, the invasion of Cyprus in 1974, the ongoing Aegean Sea Dispute, etc). Erdogan knows this, and he's played it domestically for years to drum up supprt from fellow Neo-Ottomanist, Islamists, and militant nationalists because it's an issue he can poke at without alienating everyone else in the country.

Of course, recent events have seemingly caused a reevaluation of Turkey's application to the EU, and as of this year they've passed 65 of the 72 article necessary to join, but a lot of that was as negotiated bids to keep Turkey in line in the conflict with ISIS (or so the general theory goes).