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The day is upon us, we now have Points for AoS models (a little google fu will get you the images). We also know how the force org chart works (mostly), with points determining how many battle line units are required and how many other units (like leaders, monstrous creatures, etc) are allowed. Two interesting things, points are per units (not model), and formations cost points (they really need to get that into 40k sooner rather than latter). Based on spikey bits and bell of lost souls we know tournaments will be run at 2k points, which is about two and a half times the AoS storm-cast eternals starter force. You can have allies, but their is a tiered approach to benefits for having a fluffy army, if your army is all alliance you get the alliance benefit, and if your army is all one faction you get a action specific ability.

So I suppose now we can start talking about lists, I only have the stormcast from the starter so 2k seems far away, but I was thinking of adding two units of judicators, another unit of prosecutors, a celestiant prime (cause the model is awesome), beefing up my liberators to ten man squads, and adding a knight heraldor. What are you guys planning?

I noticed that Seraphon have survived the list-building/force-org restrictions remarkably well, with most of their super-combos still fitting withing "leader" requirements at 2000pts. I suspect they'll be more competitive than ever, and with Rule of 1 making some "immortal" tanky combos gone, the Saurus Guard 2+ save, ignoring most rend, rerollable, is one of a handful of remaining, "almost impossible to remove" units.

For the moment, I'm planning my Seraphon army as I haven't seen any points for Wanderers yet. So far I've got a start collecting box, Bastiladon and Old-blood (on foot).

At the moment, I guess the only thing I'm unsure about is if I can add single models to a unit for a calculated 'per model' cost. The Saurus Knights are 120 points for 5 models, yet the start collecting box comes with 8. I would like to think that I could add the extra 3 models in for 24 points each, but will have to see.

Assuming I can do that, my current force is sitting at just over 1k points but I'd like to increase that. Next on my list is a Slann and some Chameleon Skinks, and I'll see where I go from there.

No you cannot. You buy the models per the number given. There is a paragraph that was leaked (picture of it) that stated if you come below that number you still pay the points for x models.

IE if its 5 models for 100 points and you have 8, you'd pay 200 points for 10 and only field 8 if you only have 8 models.

 auticus wrote:
No you cannot. You buy the models per the number given. There is a paragraph that was leaked (picture of it) that stated if you come below that number you still pay the points for x models.

IE if its 5 models for 100 points and you have 8, you'd pay 200 points for 10 and only field 8 if you only have 8 models.

Ahh ok, I must've missed that, thank you for clarifying. I'll need to round up my numbers then!

My Fyreslayers are good to run 2,000 easily, maybe even 3,000 wity items.
I'm shopping for basing for my dwarfs and lizards but, gak, I'll have like 10-15,000 of both.

I wonder what battleline upgrades our scaly friends will be getting, because that could make that force org chart a much easier fit. Plus I like the idea of gonzo battles like dinosaurs vs angels, it would look like something from an answers in genesis handout.

My Tzeentch lists have taken a hit in summoning and magic, but I think the Cohort is still a viable battalion with Fateweaver around.

You still have access to one of the best spells with Infernal Gateway and Gift of Change. Add in Arcane Bolt and a Herald Spell and you aren't running out of Mortal wounds from some very good casters given how easy it is to still cast.

A full unit of Flamers is still plenty powerful and can't be ignored. But when they die in the cohort, Fateweaver can revive them once per game to appear anywhere.

That will be scary to deal with.

I'm just more confused about starting up a flesh eater courts army.

If all the extra "summoned but not really summoned" units have to be paid for from your reinforcements points, it really doesn't look like it'll be a very exciting army to play.

Especially with those troops coming in from a board edge... It's like a worse form of summoning if you had to pay for the extra troops.

 Grimgold wrote:
I wonder what battleline upgrades our scaly friends will be getting, because that could make that force org chart a much easier fit. Plus I like the idea of gonzo battles like dinosaurs vs angels, it would look like something from an answers in genesis handout.

That would be...amazing.

I got my Spiderfang ready with troll back up and some Orruks to supply cheap killy battleline payment for the smaller games.

- 1000 - Destruction Allegiance
Grot Big Boss on Gigantic Spider

2x Savage Oruuks

3x Sourbreath Trolls

Rock Lobba

- 2000 - Spiderfang Allegiance
Spiderfang Venom Mob

3x Doom Divers

- 2500 - Spiderfang Allegiance
Spiderfang Venom Mob

Spider Riders

2x Sourbreath Trolls

Rock Lobba

3x Doom Divers

If I understand the rules right, I can claim any Allegiance from all factions represented in my army, but must do so before the battle and if I choose Spiderfang I get access to Spider Riders as Battleline...but if I choose Destruction or Troggoth then I need pure battleline units, like the Savage Orruks, right?

The efficiency discussions... have begun.

This is why the game needs no points, it wants no points.....

I will continue to play without points

 auticus wrote:
The efficiency discussions... have begun.

Something something dark side... seriously though these have already been gone over by the major tournament orgs that made the alternative point systems, and their feedback along with GWs new ideas seem to have done a fair job. The summoning changes and the three rules of one seem well thought out, and the points seem fair with a few over costed units (like Nagash, which is weird to say). With as much synergy as armies bring to the board, and no glaring under costed units, efficiency is just one aspect in good list building. I think you'll find the other aspects fairly similar to the list building prior to the general handbook.

I wont be using points just like i wont be using the 3 rules of one

No matter how busy or tired or excited I am reading this on the iPad always reads thread title "time to talk tits,"...

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
I wont be using points just like i wont be using the 3 rules of one

I can see playing it like you currently do without points, but the three rules of 1 are just common sense, unless you like invincible units.

You're right, my good Emperor Palpatine sir, but to be fair... for every post you see that makes you nervous, please try to temper it with a little positivity. Someone like me wouldn't even be here so enthusiastically talking about the game without the option, and I still assert that more players is a net win. :-)

On the topic at hand... you know what army has really increased in horse-power with these new rules? Flesh-Eater Courts.

I ran a 2000(ish) point game of them yesterday (using the rough math of SCGT x20 until we get our books), and the game expressly saying their brand of "summoning" isn't summoning, made them much more powerful than I found them in games where Summoning could more easily run amok.

I actually bought another Vrascu's Court bundle from GW just now because it is one of their most value rich bundles EVER, and these guys can actually summon SO much, so quickly, that you will need to models.

Running Ghoul King on Zombie Dragon as your General, and just "getting" a free Varghoul Courtier every turn... who in turn just "gets" an average of five more regular Ghouls or two Crypt Horrors, is pretty amazing.

Are you sure their "not summoning, but still summoning" doesn't come from the summoning pool? Does it mention that anywhere in book that you know?

The book, from several leakers, has confirmed that "not summoning" doesn't count for summoning-pool. So things like Skeletons replenishing with their banner, Pheonix coming back from the dead, and any other similar special rules don't count.

Essentially its summoning-spells which have been nerfed, and the Flesh-Eater special abilities are just that... special abilities, not a summon spell.

I can imagine tournaments making a house-ruling though, as Flesh Eaters feel STRONG right now... That said, their points would probably need tweaking if you categorized those abilities as summons, because whole units like all the Courtiers, essentially do nothing BUT summon. :-p

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
The book, from several leakers, has confirmed that "not summoning" doesn't count for summoning-pool. So things like Skeletons replenishing with their banner, Pheonix coming back from the dead, and any other similar special rules don't count.

Essentially its summoning-spells which have been nerfed, and the Flesh-Eater special abilities are just that... special abilities, not a summon spell.

I can imagine tournaments making a house-ruling though, as Flesh Eaters feel STRONG right now... That said, their points would probably need tweaking if you categorized those abilities as summons, because whole units like all the Courtiers, essentially do nothing BUT summon. :-p

Oh damn. That does sound insane then. I have bought the army box of Flesh eater courts myself. I'm currently finishing off my 2 start collecting boxes first... But I think I'll have to get cracking on the ghouls soon then

But yeah, it does require a crapload of models then to use them effectively. Or just don't overdo it on leaders perhaps? Varghulf courtier is pretty well balanced in adding extra stuff to your army... I'll try that one out first

I don't know how effective it is, but I think I remember seeing in the leaks that Stonehorns and Thundertusks are battleline units in a Beastclaw Raiders force... I like the sound of that.

So far, it looks like I have exactly 1,500Pts in Stormcast. Now I want to add "Allies" aka other non-Stormcast units into the mix. With the release of the Sylvaneth I am likely to go that way. Of course I have also had my eye on the Swifthawk Agents and the Seraphon cavalry.

Cataphract wrote:
So far, it looks like I have exactly 1,500Pts in Stormcast. Now I want to add "Allies" aka other non-Stormcast units into the mix. With the release of the Sylvaneth I am likely to go that way. Of course I have also had my eye on the Swifthawk Agents and the Seraphon cavalry.

Go with devoted of sigmar they mix really well with the stormcast and the buffs the warriors priests give to the flagellants

 Elmir wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
The book, from several leakers, has confirmed that "not summoning" doesn't count for summoning-pool. So things like Skeletons replenishing with their banner, Pheonix coming back from the dead, and any other similar special rules don't count.

Essentially its summoning-spells which have been nerfed, and the Flesh-Eater special abilities are just that... special abilities, not a summon spell.

I can imagine tournaments making a house-ruling though, as Flesh Eaters feel STRONG right now... That said, their points would probably need tweaking if you categorized those abilities as summons, because whole units like all the Courtiers, essentially do nothing BUT summon. :-p

Oh damn. That does sound insane then. I have bought the army box of Flesh eater courts myself. I'm currently finishing off my 2 start collecting boxes first... But I think I'll have to get cracking on the ghouls soon then

But yeah, it does require a crapload of models then to use them effectively. Or just don't overdo it on leaders perhaps? Varghulf courtier is pretty well balanced in adding extra stuff to your army... I'll try that one out first

Just got through the book. I believe that won't work. If it adds a new unit or replaces one that was killed, it still draws from your reinforcement points.

And when you add to an existing unit, it can't go beyond its starting size.

Not sure how it works for a Phoenix or the Cohort of Tzeentch's replacements though.

Guys there's an entire AoS forum section dedicated to this. Please post your lists over there =]

There seems to be a lot of use with the new type of summoning...
As far as I can tell from the leaks I can have a fully Tzeentch list and get the benefits, but then not deploy something (e.g. horrors) and summon something else (e.g. daemonettes) without loosing all the perks?
OR even drop battleline units in my legal list to summon units that are not battleline units.

As far as I can tell though, anyone know better?

 auticus wrote:
No you cannot. You buy the models per the number given. There is a paragraph that was leaked (picture of it) that stated if you come below that number you still pay the points for x models.

IE if its 5 models for 100 points and you have 8, you'd pay 200 points for 10 and only field 8 if you only have 8 models.

Seriously? That's just obnoxious. Petty ante stuff like this will kill any hope of this game coming back.

I personally like it. One of the things I detest greatly is the min/max method of granular model points. Thats probably because I started getting into games like SAGA where you pay x points for y models as well and its super easy to build a list (I am NOT a listbuilder and don't like spending a lot of time trying to hammer up the most points efficient lists, I just want to play), and the fan comps also reflected that for AOS over the past year.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

 auticus wrote:
No you cannot. You buy the models per the number given. There is a paragraph that was leaked (picture of it) that stated if you come below that number you still pay the points for x models.

IE if its 5 models for 100 points and you have 8, you'd pay 200 points for 10 and only field 8 if you only have 8 models.

Seriously? That's just obnoxious. Petty ante stuff like this will kill any hope of this game coming back.

Nah, I don't think any of that's true. Models are sold in set sizes and this, like the player made comps, follows. Not petty, but that response seems a bit petty and/or overblown. Books also not officially out though more stores have it now so you can go see it and make your own conclusion. But no no no way is the GHB gonna kill AoS, Quite the opposite.