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The 'models are added in full box numbers' doesn't really work when you realize most players will have multiple units of the same model (e.g., multiple units of Orruk Brutes) that they can split the models from that box between. I foresee points per model becoming a common house rule.

Not following the Orruk Brutes splitting.

Come in a box of 5, you don't split tht box as unit sizes for them are in 5s...

Do you mean Ard Boyz? Cause that box is 15 models and in game you take them in units of 10. So you need to buy two boxes for a even number

Either way, while its different, I like it.

Most units come in 10/5/3 and it matches to the generals handbook. There are some that are odd (Ardboyz and Dryads) but over all I think its a good rule.

str00dles1 wrote:
Not following the Orruk Brutes splitting.

Come in a box of 5, you don't split tht box as unit sizes for them are in 5s...

Do you mean Ard Boyz? Cause that box is 15 models and in game you take them in units of 10. So you need to buy two boxes for a even number

Either way, while its different, I like it.

Most units come in 10/5/3 and it matches to the generals handbook. There are some that are odd (Ardboyz and Dryads) but over all I think its a good rule.

Yes, I mean split the box of Brutes. If I have three units of Brutes already and buy another box, I may want to split the models and add two to one unit of Brutes and then add one each to the other two units of Brutes. I may not want to field another unit of Brutes or add the entire box to a single existing unit. That's why I see points per model being a common house rule versus points per group.

 Ghaz wrote:
The 'models are added in full box numbers' doesn't really work when you realize most players will have multiple units of the same model (e.g., multiple units of Orruk Brutes) that they can split the models from that box between. I foresee points per model becoming a common house rule.

Personally, it's weird for me too, maybe just that it's so different. I got used to set number from KoW over this past year and of course, Warmahordes, but an option for per model points is something I too think I'll see at some point, probably singe smaller events, though. Who knows, we'll see.

 Ghaz wrote:

str00dles1 wrote:
Not following the Orruk Brutes splitting.

Come in a box of 5, you don't split tht box as unit sizes for them are in 5s...

Do you mean Ard Boyz? Cause that box is 15 models and in game you take them in units of 10. So you need to buy two boxes for a even number

Either way, while its different, I like it.

Most units come in 10/5/3 and it matches to the generals handbook. There are some that are odd (Ardboyz and Dryads) but over all I think its a good rule.

Yes, I mean split the box of Brutes. If I have three units of Brutes already and buy another box, I may want to split the models and add two to one unit of Brutes and then add one each to the other two units of Brutes. I may not want to field another unit of Brutes or add the entire box to a single existing unit. That's why I see points per model being a common house rule versus points per group.

I can see people doing it, I guess for that instance though I don't see why you would... I guess logically it doesn't make sense and the box they sell is the exact number you need in a unit.

I see it as more beneficial to do one group of 10, then 1 group on either flank of that unit. To each their own though!

Thoughts on easiest way to get 4 Battleline Empire units if you don't already have such?

I do think we'll already need a FAQ on what constitutes summoning though. As I said, they outright say some abilities aren't summoning and still work... and then mention summoning spells requiring the points-pool.... But then you have stuff like Flesh-Eater Courts which are right in between.

The size thing is easy enough to explain, it's the unit size per upgrade. The only annoying thing for me was there were 3 retributors in the starter box, and the unit size is five. So your either overpaying points wise or need to get two loose retributors from people who are parting out the beginner box on e-bay, which is kind of lame. I decided to go for the latter, and the lack of upgrades isn't too large an issue because I'm not sold on the star soul mace.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
I do think we'll already need a FAQ on what constitutes summoning though. As I said, they outright say some abilities aren't summoning and still work... and then mention summoning spells requiring the points-pool.... But then you have stuff like Flesh-Eater Courts which are right in between.

There is no 'just summoning.' It's any ability that creates a new unit that draws upon reinforcement points.

I'm personally tempted to grab two of the ghoul boxsets. I love the majority of models and these and the tree-kin armies are what I'm looking at playing.

 Grimgold wrote:
The size thing is easy enough to explain, it's the unit size per upgrade. The only annoying thing for me was there were 3 retributors in the starter box, and the unit size is five. So your either overpaying points wise or need to get two loose retributors from people who are parting out the beginner box on e-bay, which is kind of lame. I decided to go for the latter, and the lack of upgrades isn't too large an issue because I'm not sold on the star soul mace.

You must be smoking some strong stuff. Star Soul maces are the reason you take any type of Paladin. Especially when they are free.

 Grimgold wrote:
The size thing is easy enough to explain, it's the unit size per upgrade. The only annoying thing for me was there were 3 retributors in the starter box, and the unit size is five. So your either overpaying points wise or need to get two loose retributors from people who are parting out the beginner box on e-bay, which is kind of lame. I decided to go for the latter, and the lack of upgrades isn't too large an issue because I'm not sold on the star soul mace.

Plus side since its a starter is they are dirt cheap. 3 for 12 bucks on ebay. But I understand what your saying. I have 32 Dryads and buiding my ard boyz means 2 boxes, but im ok with that as I need the bodies anyways

 Lou_Cypher wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
I do think we'll already need a FAQ on what constitutes summoning though. As I said, they outright say some abilities aren't summoning and still work... and then mention summoning spells requiring the points-pool.... But then you have stuff like Flesh-Eater Courts which are right in between.

There is no 'just summoning.' It's any ability that creates a new unit that draws upon reinforcement points.

I'll wait to see how it's written but I feel like the point thing is specific for Summon titled spells. Otherwise how would you qualify the Branchwraith spell that creates a 2d6 unit (since they don't point by model)? Meanwhile Summon Royal Guard is a command ability (which arguably is included in the models point cost) and not a spell.

Either way I'll wait to see. The reinforcing numbers though is solid so worst case My Flesh-Eater Court army will just bump up existing units fast.

 Bottle wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:
The size thing is easy enough to explain, it's the unit size per upgrade. The only annoying thing for me was there were 3 retributors in the starter box, and the unit size is five. So your either overpaying points wise or need to get two loose retributors from people who are parting out the beginner box on e-bay, which is kind of lame. I decided to go for the latter, and the lack of upgrades isn't too large an issue because I'm not sold on the star soul mace.

You must be smoking some strong stuff. Star Soul maces are the reason you take any type of Paladin. Especially when they are free.

From time to time, but only for glaucoma . Math-wise I know what your saying, Star soul mace has an average of 2 mortal wounds per round compared to (2 * (1/2 * 2/3 * 2)) = 1.33 wounds plus (2 * (2 * 1/6)) = 0.66 mortal wounds for a difference of about 1 and a third wound per round assuming perfect saves. Most thing will be saving on a 4+/5+ against them though and that brings them much closer together damage wise. The difference is that the thunder hammer may perform slightly worse on average, but it has a higher upper limit of wounds inflicted, and has a lower probable floor value (Only 1 in 9 attacks will miss both, but 1 in 3 attacks with the star soul mace will only inflict 1 wound). The variability is also much higher on a star soul mace, it could be amazing but it could also be terrible, and even a slightly below average game would put the thunder hammer ahead since they are fairly close damage wise. Finally any to hit buff is going to going to bring them to near parity against average armor saves.

tl;dr The star soul mace is stronger, but not by much, it doesn't benefit from buffs, and it's less consistent than the thunder hammer.

 Lou_Cypher wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
I do think we'll already need a FAQ on what constitutes summoning though. As I said, they outright say some abilities aren't summoning and still work... and then mention summoning spells requiring the points-pool.... But then you have stuff like Flesh-Eater Courts which are right in between.

There is no 'just summoning.' It's any ability that creates a new unit that draws upon reinforcement points.

Ok, so what about the members of the Court who don't create a new unit, but who add numbers to existing units? That now sounds nearly identical to TK Skellies regaining D6 bodies per hero-phase, which the book says DOESN'T count as summoning.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:

 Lou_Cypher wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
I do think we'll already need a FAQ on what constitutes summoning though. As I said, they outright say some abilities aren't summoning and still work... and then mention summoning spells requiring the points-pool.... But then you have stuff like Flesh-Eater Courts which are right in between.

There is no 'just summoning.' It's any ability that creates a new unit that draws upon reinforcement points.

Ok, so what about the members of the Court who don't create a new unit, but who add numbers to existing units? That now sounds nearly identical to TK Skellies regaining D6 bodies per hero-phase, which the book says DOESN'T count as summoning.

Use it freely. But you can't go over your starting number of models in the unit you're adding to.

That's an impressively interesting read on how it works especially since it goes against your previous statement of new units being summoned units.

I checked out the book again at the store today. By how its worded is the ability is "Summon Name here".... its against your points. Like the Ghoul King "Summon Royal Guard"

Also The Skeletons "Raise Skeletons" would count to the limit of points.

Things that would NOT count to your points would be...

The Skeletons having a banner. If they do in the hero phase they gain d6 back. This does not go to your point limit.

Alarielles Soul Amphorae. As the units are a random amount, and its not specifically summoning, as it can heal 50% of the time.

But I agree, they do need to FAQ. The best solution is if it brings a unit into play it should cost points, but if its a random amount there's confusion

If we're talking lists, I personally have added two blobs of Clanrats to my Skaven\Slaanesh-Daemons\Nurgle-Daemons force, as they are the only skaven model that is battle line in an army with multiple clans and\or other chaos units.

 Hulksmash wrote:
That's an impressively interesting read on how it works especially since it goes against your previous statement of new units being summoned units.

Not too complicated as far as I can tell.

If something adds a new unit to an army, they will cost reinforcement points.

Summoning spells, abilities, anything else that creates a new unit that wasn't there before the game began = reinforcement.

Anything else that adds models to existing units and doesn't go over the starting size =/= not reinforcement.

 Grimgold wrote:

 Bottle wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:
The size thing is easy enough to explain, it's the unit size per upgrade. The only annoying thing for me was there were 3 retributors in the starter box, and the unit size is five. So your either overpaying points wise or need to get two loose retributors from people who are parting out the beginner box on e-bay, which is kind of lame. I decided to go for the latter, and the lack of upgrades isn't too large an issue because I'm not sold on the star soul mace.

You must be smoking some strong stuff. Star Soul maces are the reason you take any type of Paladin. Especially when they are free.

From time to time, but only for glaucoma . Math-wise I know what your saying, Star soul mace has an average of 2 mortal wounds per round compared to (2 * (1/2 * 2/3 * 2)) = 1.33 wounds plus (2 * (2 * 1/6)) = 0.66 mortal wounds for a difference of about 1 and a third wound per round assuming perfect saves. Most thing will be saving on a 4+/5+ against them though and that brings them much closer together damage wise. The difference is that the thunder hammer may perform slightly worse on average, but it has a higher upper limit of wounds inflicted, and has a lower probable floor value (Only 1 in 9 attacks will miss both, but 1 in 3 attacks with the star soul mace will only inflict 1 wound). The variability is also much higher on a star soul mace, it could be amazing but it could also be terrible, and even a slightly below average game would put the thunder hammer ahead since they are fairly close damage wise. Finally any to hit buff is going to going to bring them to near parity against average armor saves.

tl;dr The star soul mace is stronger, but not by much, it doesn't benefit from buffs, and it's less consistent than the thunder hammer.

You realise standard armour saves aren't taken against mortal wounds right? Most stuff does not have a 4+ save against mortal wounds. There is no reason not to max out on Star Soul maces in a system with free upgrades.

It's too early for elaborate maths, but dude, trust me


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's a real world example with average rolls for the lighting hammers. 5 Retributors, 2 Starsoul Mace attacks vs 6 Lightning Hammer attacks (not including the prime for simplicity ).

The Starsoul Maces do 4 Mortal Wounds median.

Out of the 6 Lightning Hammer attacks, 1 gets the 6 (2 Mortal Wounds) and 3 score a regular hit (2 miss = average). Of the 3 that hit, 2 wound (again average).

If you were up against something like Blood Reavers, that would equal 6 wounds inflicted by the Lightning Hammers vs 4 wounds inflicted by the Starsoul Maces, 2 wounds per model making them the same. But in actual games you're going to be using the Retributors to knock out tough targets. Not go up against chaff.

From my army the juiciest target is the Steam Tank. Against the Lightning Hammers it would have a 4+ save - it saves 1 taking the Lighting Hammers down to 4 wounds inflicted making them worse than the Starsoul Maces on per model output. Most juicy targets will have a strong save, usually with Mystic Shield on it too. Being able to bypass that save makes the Starsoul Maces the much more consistent choice.

If you can explain a reliable strategy on how to get +1 to hit for them we can take it into account, but I am sure you are much more likely to encounter Mystic Shields and cover saves in opposition.

Guys, this thread should be in the Lists section.

I shall move it.

So, while we're talking about statistics and such, I have a question to pose: is the Keeper of Secrets worth it's cost, especially in an army with few slaanesh units? How likely is the tempting gift to kill the person affected by it? Im going to get one for fluff reasons, but I'd like to have an idea of the math behind everything so I can make informed decidions whilst in-game.

 Swampmist wrote:
So, while we're talking about statistics and such, I have a question to pose: is the Keeper of Secrets worth it's cost, especially in an army with few slaanesh units? How likely is the tempting gift to kill the person affected by it? Im going to get one for fluff reasons, but I'd like to have an idea of the math behind everything so I can make informed decidions whilst in-game.

You don't take a KoS for that. I took mine for the fun conversion (medusa), but the command ability is amazing with other Slaanesh daemons, the melee capability is good and the spell is good against most battleline,

str00dles1 wrote:
I checked out the book again at the store today. By how its worded is the ability is "Summon Name here".... its against your points. Like the Ghoul King "Summon Royal Guard"

Also The Skeletons "Raise Skeletons" would count to the limit of points.

Things that would NOT count to your points would be...

The Skeletons having a banner. If they do in the hero phase they gain d6 back. This does not go to your point limit.

Alarielles Soul Amphorae. As the units are a random amount, and its not specifically summoning, as it can heal 50% of the time.

But I agree, they do need to FAQ. The best solution is if it brings a unit into play it should cost points, but if its a random amount there's confusion

I'm ok with this verdict too. If it creates an absolutely new unit, out of thin air... its summoning. If it adds models to existing units only, with no option of splitting it off into a new unit, it "isn't summoning". Its what i'll be going with until proven otherwise.

The issue is that "summoning spells" are ALMOST consistently worded enough to clearly be a specific thing. Like, in my wife's Seraphon Warscrolls, the entire line of summoning spells is very similarly worded, has a clear casting value... IE its unquestionably a "summoning spell". Then the aforementioned Flesh-Eater Courts Courtier summons are worded to ALMOST qualify (they're not spells... they don't have casting value and can't be dispelled), and then yet further Flesh-Eater Courts are just a hair removed from Skeleton Icon-Bearers in that they just slightly bolster random amounts of existing models to existing units (IE Varghoulf Courtier).

It seems you interpretation is pretty much the consensus we came to when discussing it at the store. If a new model is placed on the battlefield, it comes out of your points.

If it refills a unit: free.

This means that certain (command) abilities are utterly gak now in pitched battles, while others are super strong. But I guess that was bound to happen when you start adding points to a game.

 Bottle wrote:


You realise standard armour saves aren't taken against mortal wounds right? Most stuff does not have a 4+ save against mortal wounds. There is no reason not to max out on Star Soul maces in a system with free upgrades.

It's too early for elaborate maths, but dude, trust me


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's a real world example with average rolls for the lighting hammers. 5 Retributors, 2 Starsoul Mace attacks vs 6 Lightning Hammer attacks (not including the prime for simplicity ).

The Starsoul Maces do 4 Mortal Wounds median.

Out of the 6 Lightning Hammer attacks, 1 gets the 6 (2 Mortal Wounds) and 3 score a regular hit (2 miss = average). Of the 3 that hit, 2 wound (again average).

If you were up against something like Blood Reavers, that would equal 6 wounds inflicted by the Lightning Hammers vs 4 wounds inflicted by the Starsoul Maces, 2 wounds per model making them the same. But in actual games you're going to be using the Retributors to knock out tough targets. Not go up against chaff.

From my army the juiciest target is the Steam Tank. Against the Lightning Hammers it would have a 4+ save - it saves 1 taking the Lighting Hammers down to 4 wounds inflicted making them worse than the Starsoul Maces on per model output. Most juicy targets will have a strong save, usually with Mystic Shield on it too. Being able to bypass that save makes the Starsoul Maces the much more consistent choice.

If you can explain a reliable strategy on how to get +1 to hit for them we can take it into account, but I am sure you are much more likely to encounter Mystic Shields and cover saves in opposition.

Lord celestant, a Leader unit in their own faction, super easy +1. As for the math hammer I already did it:



Knight azyros also buffs hit, but it's not quite as awesome as double the mortal wounds.

So I got into fantasy because of AoS, made a wood elf force focused on mobility and had a good time of it, since the leaks and the notes on how summoning works it needs a revamp.

What was:

Orion
Spellweaver on Steed
Sisters of the Thorn (10)
Wildriders (10)
Hounds of Orion (many)

In theory, the idea would be to summon hounds of Orion in order to distract larger blob squads while Orion and the Wildriders would take on thorny auras and take apart specific targets, but in practice the casualty rates from the hounds was the biggest weakness of the force.

By my count, excluding the hounds I'm at 1220, which leaves me with some space to fill out a battle line. I'm thinking:

Drycha
Dryad (30)
Tree-Revenant(5)
And a Wyldwood (free?)

I like the idea of taking Drycha to stomp the big troop blobs that have distracted Orion in the games I've played him, but Im not 100% on what to do with the dryads. Can I place the forests aggressively and summon them in far up the field?

 DarkBlack wrote:

 Swampmist wrote:
So, while we're talking about statistics and such, I have a question to pose: is the Keeper of Secrets worth it's cost, especially in an army with few slaanesh units? How likely is the tempting gift to kill the person affected by it? Im going to get one for fluff reasons, but I'd like to have an idea of the math behind everything so I can make informed decidions whilst in-game.

You don't take a KoS for that. I took mine for the fun conversion (medusa), but the command ability is amazing with other Slaanesh daemons, the melee capability is good and the spell is good against most battleline,

Aye, the Kipper has a lot going for her beyond Dark Temptations

But we can still break Dark Temptations down if you'd like. We don't have to do a lot of math on this one - 1 of those 6 attaks alone should come up and get the hero devoured, and that chance only gets stronger the more base attaks the hero has before the Keeper's gift, especially as anyone with a weapon already has at least one attak (for completeness: a hero with 1 attak should die 1.17 of the time; with 2 attaks 1.33 of the time; with 3 attaks 1.5; and so on).

Add to that that DT kicks in before modifiers, and it's pretty clear that no enemy hero is going to accept, unless they've already been written off by their owner or are suiciding just to smack wounds into your Keeper. Let's say you've gotten the jump on a wizard of mine, and I've got the 1 attak D3 damage bonking stick on him. I know he's dead meat, but for some reason you tempt him with loads of attaks. I am absolutely going to take the gift! 7 shots at D3 damage into a daemon about to munch his wizardy body? Sweet warp yes! However because the Keeper doesn't have to tempt heroes automatically, you'd simply not offer the bonking stick guy extra attaks.*

TL;DR: I wouldn't worry too much about Dark Temptations. In situations where your opponent is likely to accept it, you don't really want to offer it. In situations where you'd love for them to accept it, they're not likely to. It's probably most likely to go off in those cases where the other player feels like hurling caution to the wind because YOLOhammer, or y'all are playing a bit of Narrative Play

- Salvage

*Assuming that the tempted batch of attaks is carried through to damage, and not interrupted when the hero's "soul is immediately devoured by the Keeper of Secrets and it is slain."

Thank you kindly! Yeah, I don't think most people would take the offer, but the situation I'm hoping to have it for is when a big guy (Lord Celestant on Dracoth for example) attacks one of my important units (Plague furnace) and reeeeaaally wants to make sure they kill it, because they don't want it buffing the rest of the rats, so they'll risk the chance to cripple my army. And, with the math in, I think this scenario might come up, which should be cool. Thank you! Though, now I have another marhhammer question: Why take a plagueclaw catapult (outside of a pure Pestilens force) when you can get three poison wind mortar teams for the same cost? Am I missing something aboit the math here?