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Are big blobs of cultists still regarded as the best troop choice? Also for Tzeentch characters what are the optimal load out for a chaos lord and sorcerer? Besides the obligatory 4++ and spell familiar for the sorceror
I find the new crimson slaughter cultist formation ( 2-8 units of cultists and a dark apostle allowing you to re-spawn d6 cultists for each unit per turn!) amazing and fluffy when it comes to taking blobs of cultists, mixes well with Tzeenchian as giving the dark apostle a mark of Tzeench give him a lovely 3+ invulnerable save. Its a great formation that brings cultists up to par with current armies. Finding a viable use for other units is a lot harder, I'm currently experimenting with the Disciples of Mannon formation (1 unit of possessed and a sorcerer) and having some success, if your lucky you can pump your possessed up to 2+ invuln save with cursed earth, including your sorcerer if you take 'prophet of the voices'. The new black legion formation is also not bad, essentially giving you re-rollable 3+ warp charges! thanks to spell familiars which can be quite strong and reliable. Some of the best sorcerer builds are Sorcerer on a bike (for the +1 toughness and speed) and a spell familiar with max extra psyker levels. That minimizes the points spent and give you a reasonable sorcerer. Giving a sorcerer a mark of tzeench is a no no, as he can't get a free primaris due to him automatically having at least 1 spell of tzeench.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/06/29 10:10:12
The artifact doesn't boost an invulnerable save like you think, it makes a save of 1 rerollable, almost giving you the equivalent of a 2++ if you run tzeentch for a 3++ since you only fail on a 2, instead of failing on 1. Almost. I haven't tried it yet myself to see how good /bad it actually works.
Roknar wrote: The artifact doesn't boost an invulnerable save like you think, it makes a save of 1 rerollable, almost giving you the equivalent of a 2++ if you run tzeentch for a 3++ since you only fail on a 2, instead of failing on 1. Almost. I haven't tried it yet myself to see how good /bad it actually works.
Oh right my bad, but still probably not worth it to be only T4, try him vs a PF/LC nurgle lord (who probably works out cheaper) against one another or against most other enemy heroes and see which performs better. I expect the nurgle one will be better (but hey you're playing Tzeentch csm so better isn't exactly the order of the day!).
I have had some success with a biomancy sorcerer with force axe on disk (for the +1 attack mainly) in spawn or CSM bikers, his 4 instant death AP2 attacks is pretty good but I don't think the huge cost and T loss is worth it for 33% survivability boost against AP3 attacks (reroll gives you 66% chance of passing invuln and you get it 50% of the time you would otherwise die).
Reavas wrote: if your lucky you can pump your possessed up to 2+ invuln save with cursed earth
You can't as MoT prevents you from having 2++. It says that if you take MoT you can't have an inv save better than 3++ because csm can't have good things You can get to 2++ if you don't take MoT though. Cursed earth + grimoire. Though, i'm not sure it's a good idea to waste grimoire on possessed. Or actually get them at all for that matter.
I've tried MoT some time ago in friendly games where i had apostle with MoT, Sorc with MoT and a min squad of rubrics. Other stuff was unmarked though as MoT is not really worth it on anything else. Well, maybe a biker/disc lord could benefit from it. But practice shows that MoN is generally way better due to tougher MoN retinue like spawns or bikers/raptors.
As for the best troop choice, it's probably cultists but min cultists. Cause they're relatively cheap, still have ld8 and can sit on points and score. 2*50 pt and you have your min troops filled. They don't do anything other than that though. But your 2*110+ pt rhino marines don't do much either. Though rhinos can be pretty useful on their own.
This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2016/06/30 04:51:20
Reavas wrote: if your lucky you can pump your possessed up to 2+ invuln save with cursed earth
You can't as MoT prevents you from having 2++. It says that if you take MoT you can't have an inv save better than 3++ because csm can't have good things You can get to 2++ if you don't take MoT though. Cursed earth + grimoire. Though, i'm not sure it's a good idea to waste grimoire on possessed. Or actually get them at all for that matter.
I've tried MoT some time ago in friendly games where i had apostle with MoT, Sorc with MoT and a min squad of rubrics. Other stuff was unmarked though as MoT is not really worth it on anything else. Well, maybe a biker/disc lord could benefit from it. But practice shows that MoN is generally way better due to tougher MoN retinue like spawns or bikers/raptors.
As for the best troop choice, it's probably cultists but min cultists. Cause they're relatively cheap, still have ld8 and can sit on points and score. 2*50 pt and you have your min troops filled. They don't do anything other than that though. But your 2*110+ pt rhino marines don't do much either. Though rhinos can be pretty useful on their own.
Im not talking about mark of Tzeench I'm talking about the "Slaves to the voices" ability allowing the possessed a 1/3 chance to get a 3+ invuln save at the start of the movement phase, I personally hate the MoT and don't run it unless its on a Dark apostle
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/30 04:57:09
Cabal on disks, with kdk hounds and Herald and a daemon Cad with fatey horrors and screamerstar.
The real problem is the lore of tzeentch really needs to
be better.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The next wulfen book should feature tzeentch and hopefully kick things up a notch!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/30 06:02:42
Intercessor wrote: Reducing the toughness to 4 doesn't matter too much for that relic when you can get an eternal warrior artifact as well. A lot of points though.
At this point you might as well just bring Abaddon and slingshot him into combat with spawn.
Roknar wrote: The artifact doesn't boost an invulnerable save like you think, it makes a save of 1 rerollable, almost giving you the equivalent of a 2++ if you run tzeentch for a 3++ since you only fail on a 2, instead of failing on 1. Almost. I haven't tried it yet myself to see how good /bad it actually works.
Oh right my bad, but still probably not worth it to be only T4, try him vs a PF/LC nurgle lord (who probably works out cheaper) against one another or against most other enemy heroes and see which performs better. I expect the nurgle one will be better (but hey you're playing Tzeentch csm so better isn't exactly the order of the day!).
I have had some success with a biomancy sorcerer with force axe on disk (for the +1 attack mainly) in spawn or CSM bikers, his 4 instant death AP2 attacks is pretty good but I don't think the huge cost and T loss is worth it for 33% survivability boost against AP3 attacks (reroll gives you 66% chance of passing invuln and you get it 50% of the time you would otherwise die).
Asssuming both use PF/LC the tzeentch lord is flat out better in pformance, if not so much cost. Both have the same amount of attacks, the Nurlge lord can hit before the tzeentch lord thanks to the claw, but only wound on a 4+ with shred, both wound on 2+ with the PF and neither gets their armour save regardlesss of weapon. And then the Tzeentch lord has a vastly better invulnerabale save at not only 3++ vs 4++ but that 3++ is also rerollable to a degree and both have 3 wounds, no fnp or iwnd. Of course getting the skull is non optional when you get the crucible. So the tzeetnch lord is significantly more expensive. And probably not better enough for the extra cost.
Of course for the point difference you could easily equip the nurgle with some relics of his own, so it's a moot point really. Just saying it's not as bad on paper as it initally appears, apart from the cost.
Reavas wrote: if your lucky you can pump your possessed up to 2+ invuln save with cursed earth
You can't as MoT prevents you from having 2++. It says that if you take MoT you can't have an inv save better than 3++ because csm can't have good things You can get to 2++ if you don't take MoT though. Cursed earth + grimoire. Though, i'm not sure it's a good idea to waste grimoire on possessed. Or actually get them at all for that matter.
I've tried MoT some time ago in friendly games where i had apostle with MoT, Sorc with MoT and a min squad of rubrics. Other stuff was unmarked though as MoT is not really worth it on anything else. Well, maybe a biker/disc lord could benefit from it. But practice shows that MoN is generally way better due to tougher MoN retinue like spawns or bikers/raptors.
As for the best troop choice, it's probably cultists but min cultists. Cause they're relatively cheap, still have ld8 and can sit on points and score. 2*50 pt and you have your min troops filled. They don't do anything other than that though. But your 2*110+ pt rhino marines don't do much either. Though rhinos can be pretty useful on their own.
Not exactly, it says that the mark can't boost past 3++. After that it depends on who you ask, and I'm curious what the faq will say. Some groups play this as still being able to buff past 3++ via things like cursed earth, since it's not the mark that is buffing it past 3++ but the curse and the mark doesn't magically stop buffing your sigil to 3++.
I don't want to start a discussion on this, I just wanted to point out that not everybody sees the mark working the same way.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/30 12:03:25
Roknar wrote: The artifact doesn't boost an invulnerable save like you think, it makes a save of 1 rerollable, almost giving you the equivalent of a 2++ if you run tzeentch for a 3++ since you only fail on a 2, instead of failing on 1. Almost. I haven't tried it yet myself to see how good /bad it actually works.
Oh right my bad, but still probably not worth it to be only T4, try him vs a PF/LC nurgle lord (who probably works out cheaper) against one another or against most other enemy heroes and see which performs better. I expect the nurgle one will be better (but hey you're playing Tzeentch csm so better isn't exactly the order of the day!).
I have had some success with a biomancy sorcerer with force axe on disk (for the +1 attack mainly) in spawn or CSM bikers, his 4 instant death AP2 attacks is pretty good but I don't think the huge cost and T loss is worth it for 33% survivability boost against AP3 attacks (reroll gives you 66% chance of passing invuln and you get it 50% of the time you would otherwise die).
Asssuming both use PF/LC the tzeentch lord is flat out better in pformance, if not so much cost. Both have the same amount of attacks, the Nurlge lord can hit before the tzeentch lord thanks to the claw, but only wound on a 4+ with shred, both wound on 2+ with the PF and neither gets their armour save regardlesss of weapon. And then the Tzeentch lord has a vastly better invulnerabale save at not only 3++ vs 4++ but that 3++ is also rerollable to a degree and both have 3 wounds, no fnp or iwnd. Of course getting the skull is non optional when you get the crucible. So the tzeetnch lord is significantly more expensive. And probably not better enough for the extra cost.
Of course for the point difference you could easily equip the nurgle with some relics of his own, so it's a moot point really. Just saying it's not as bad on paper as it initally appears, apart from the cost.
Reavas wrote: if your lucky you can pump your possessed up to 2+ invuln save with cursed earth
You can't as MoT prevents you from having 2++. It says that if you take MoT you can't have an inv save better than 3++ because csm can't have good things You can get to 2++ if you don't take MoT though. Cursed earth + grimoire. Though, i'm not sure it's a good idea to waste grimoire on possessed. Or actually get them at all for that matter.
I've tried MoT some time ago in friendly games where i had apostle with MoT, Sorc with MoT and a min squad of rubrics. Other stuff was unmarked though as MoT is not really worth it on anything else. Well, maybe a biker/disc lord could benefit from it. But practice shows that MoN is generally way better due to tougher MoN retinue like spawns or bikers/raptors.
As for the best troop choice, it's probably cultists but min cultists. Cause they're relatively cheap, still have ld8 and can sit on points and score. 2*50 pt and you have your min troops filled. They don't do anything other than that though. But your 2*110+ pt rhino marines don't do much either. Though rhinos can be pretty useful on their own.
Not exactly, it says that the mark can't boost past 3++. After that it depends on who you ask, and I'm curious what the faq will say. Some groups play this as still being able to buff past 3++ via things like cursed earth, since it's not the mark that is buffing it past 3++ but the curse and the mark doesn't magically stop buffing your sigil to 3++.
I don't want to start a discussion on this, I just wanted to point out that not everybody sees the mark working the same way.
Please read my above post - I'm not talking about the mark of tzeench, I'm talking about 'slaves to the voices' and cursed earth.
Roknar wrote: The artifact doesn't boost an invulnerable save like you think, it makes a save of 1 rerollable, almost giving you the equivalent of a 2++ if you run tzeentch for a 3++ since you only fail on a 2, instead of failing on 1. Almost. I haven't tried it yet myself to see how good /bad it actually works.
Oh right my bad, but still probably not worth it to be only T4, try him vs a PF/LC nurgle lord (who probably works out cheaper) against one another or against most other enemy heroes and see which performs better. I expect the nurgle one will be better (but hey you're playing Tzeentch csm so better isn't exactly the order of the day!).
I have had some success with a biomancy sorcerer with force axe on disk (for the +1 attack mainly) in spawn or CSM bikers, his 4 instant death AP2 attacks is pretty good but I don't think the huge cost and T loss is worth it for 33% survivability boost against AP3 attacks (reroll gives you 66% chance of passing invuln and you get it 50% of the time you would otherwise die).
Asssuming both use PF/LC the tzeentch lord is flat out better in pformance, if not so much cost. Both have the same amount of attacks, the Nurlge lord can hit before the tzeentch lord thanks to the claw, but only wound on a 4+ with shred, both wound on 2+ with the PF and neither gets their armour save regardlesss of weapon. And then the Tzeentch lord has a vastly better invulnerabale save at not only 3++ vs 4++ but that 3++ is also rerollable to a degree and both have 3 wounds, no fnp or iwnd. Of course getting the skull is non optional when you get the crucible. So the tzeetnch lord is significantly more expensive. And probably not better enough for the extra cost.
Of course for the point difference you could easily equip the nurgle with some relics of his own, so it's a moot point really. Just saying it's not as bad on paper as it initally appears, apart from the cost.
Reavas wrote: if your lucky you can pump your possessed up to 2+ invuln save with cursed earth
You can't as MoT prevents you from having 2++. It says that if you take MoT you can't have an inv save better than 3++ because csm can't have good things You can get to 2++ if you don't take MoT though. Cursed earth + grimoire. Though, i'm not sure it's a good idea to waste grimoire on possessed. Or actually get them at all for that matter.
I've tried MoT some time ago in friendly games where i had apostle with MoT, Sorc with MoT and a min squad of rubrics. Other stuff was unmarked though as MoT is not really worth it on anything else. Well, maybe a biker/disc lord could benefit from it. But practice shows that MoN is generally way better due to tougher MoN retinue like spawns or bikers/raptors.
As for the best troop choice, it's probably cultists but min cultists. Cause they're relatively cheap, still have ld8 and can sit on points and score. 2*50 pt and you have your min troops filled. They don't do anything other than that though. But your 2*110+ pt rhino marines don't do much either. Though rhinos can be pretty useful on their own.
Not exactly, it says that the mark can't boost past 3++. After that it depends on who you ask, and I'm curious what the faq will say. Some groups play this as still being able to buff past 3++ via things like cursed earth, since it's not the mark that is buffing it past 3++ but the curse and the mark doesn't magically stop buffing your sigil to 3++.
I don't want to start a discussion on this, I just wanted to point out that not everybody sees the mark working the same way.
[/spoiler]
Please read my above post - I'm not talking about the mark of tzeench, I'm talking about 'slaves to the voices' and cursed earth.
I know, I was responding to Koooaei about the mark preventing 2++ saves. Maybe I should have made that more clear.
I like using a sorcerer on disc with Sigil and spell familiar. Armed with force stave. I then roll on biomancy and stick him with a unit of 5 spawn. Endurance and iron arm are what you're really hoping for, but life leach can be ok too. As for the Tzeentch lore, I hope for doombolt as I might occasionally use it- anything else is useless completely.
I've been known to also give the sorcerer the burning brand or the daemonheart.... I tend to prefer Daemonheart because 2+, 3++ with ITWND is pretty awesome... But that burning brand can be nice to thin squads before you charge in and absolutely destroy them.
I like the cultist and Dark apostle formation too, i have so many zombies and hardly ever use typhus so its nice to let them respawn as zombies and they arent even bad. usually get stuff done even if its just to tarpit hold an objective or just be a speed bump.
Facts are chains that bind perception and fetter truth. For a man can remake the world if he has a dream and no facts to cloud his mind.
