Looks like my flgs is dropping 40k events

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**Traditio**

Peregrine wrote:Please don't think that buying a can of soda is making any meaningful contribution to a game store. Obviously you have no obligation to pay higher prices for something just to "support your local store", but don't congratulate yourself for how generous you are when you're buying your gaming stuff elsewhere, taking advantage of the free gaming space, and maybe buying a token $1 thing here and there. That's being smug and condescending, not a valued customer and "paying your dues".

I'm not congratulating myself or trying to make myself generous. I'm merely stating a fact in response to a point made by someone else. Another dude noted that his local store doesn't really make much from 40k, and that the money primarily comes in from things like MTG and concessions.

This basically conforms to my own experience.

**Peregrine**

Canadian 5th wrote:
If stores want a pay to play model they can start charging for tablespace or offering memberships. If not they'll need to accept that they're not the only game in town for purchasing product and allow people to game withough buying.

Like I said, you have no obligation to buy at your local store if you don't like their prices. You don't owe them anything just because they put up a shelf of 40k stuff. But don't talk about how generous you are and how you always support your local store when you all you buy is an occasional can of soda.

And why should stores allow you to game without buying? If you aren't buying anything then you aren't a customer, so kicking you out costs them very little.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Traditio wrote:
I'm not congratulating myself or trying to make myself generous.

That's exactly what you did:

That said, I do make sure to buy concessions there to "pay my dues," so to speak, for using their gaming tables.

You aren't "paying your dues" by buying a can of soda while never buying any gaming stuff, you're just taking advantage of the free gaming space.

**Traditio**

Peregrine wrote:That's exactly what you did:

That said, I do make sure to buy concessions there to "pay my dues," so to speak, for using their gaming tables.

You aren't "paying your dues" by buying a can of soda while never buying any gaming stuff, you're just taking advantage of the free gaming space.

Several points:

1. The sales price of those cans of soda, water, etc. are comparable to similar items purchased at a convenience store. If I go into a convenience store to use their bathroom and purchase a soda on the way out, would you say the same thing that you are now?

2. I could easily not purchase drinks from them. There are people at the FLGS who actually purchase their snacks and drinks from a nearby convenience store (personally, I think that this practice is positively tacky).

3. I do, in fact, occasionally purchase gaming things from them (e.g., dice and paint).

4. Again, I wish to stress that I'm not wishing to pat myself on the back. I'm simply stating a fact.

I'm personally not inclined to purchase a 40 dollar tactical squad at an FLGS when I could get the same squad on ebay for 10-20.

I do, however, purchase concessions over the duration of my stay.

For what it's worth, I'd like to point out that, from what I understand, movie theaters basically operate on this model.

The ticket price that you pay doesn't support the theater. It's pretty much used to cover the licensing costs for showing the movie in the first place. They pretty much make all of their profits through concessions (thus the high prices of concessions).

**Pouncey**

jasper76 wrote:
When I was introduced to 40K, I was strongly encouraged to kitbash, convert, and find ways not to give more money to GW. And I'm a middle-aged adult with disposable income. I can't imagine what a kid of modest means who wanted to play would do...picks a cheaper game, I assume. I don't think kit bashing and converting is something people would naturally gravitate towards or be comfortable with without some guidance.

Yeah, 10 dollars for one figure is well over the top. Even worse in some cases like Tyranid Warriors.

I picked up kitbashing/converting on my own. Admittedly well-after I started being able to pay for my own models.

This is one of my best:

http://i.imgur.com/vz481VT.jpg

The helmet is a recurring piece in many of my minis of my partner's roleplaying character. I actually used to buy Space Wolves Pack boxes just so I could get those heads. There's two of them in each box.

Eventually after the sprues piled up for several years I felt obligated to start a small Space Wolves army.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Peregrine wrote:
Canadian 5th wrote:
If stores want a pay to play model they can start charging for tablespace or offering memberships. If not they'll need to accept that they're not the only game in town for purchasing product and allow people to game withough buying.

Like I said, you have no obligation to buy at your local store if you don't like their prices. You don't owe them anything just because they put up a shelf of 40k stuff. But don't talk about how generous you are and how you always support your local store when you all you buy is an occasional can of soda.

And why should stores allow you to game without buying? If you aren't buying anything then you aren't a customer, so kicking you out costs them very little.

I shop directly from my local GW. : D

They're a lot better than most of the GWs I hear about. Pushiness isn't a thing. They offer to help find stuff at most. Admittedly I don't know if that's just because they recognize me and know that I only show up when I'm going to buy stuff.

Plus they're a physical location with an online order point thingy so I can use my debit card to buy stuff instead of relying on my mom's credit card for online purchases. : D

I play my games at home with my mom (yay for nerdy gamer parents!) due to social anxiety issues though. The GW has gaming tables open for use, and the staff have invited me to the 40k nights, but I keep having to turn them down.

**jasper76**

Griddlelol wrote:
jasper76 wrote:
When I was introduced to 40K, I was strongly encouraged to kitbash, convert, and find ways not to give more money to GW.

If you're going to a local gaming store not dedicated to 40K and named GW, this is a fething gakky attitude to have (hell, even if it is called GW, if you want it to stay open, you're gonna need to buy stuff). They're just trying to make money, and if you want to play there, you need to keep them afloat. I made sure I bought everything from my old FLGS, including getting them to order from FW.

Can you blame them for not bothering with 40K when even people with disposable income have the same attitude as you have?

I do not use the flgs for playing games. There's too much of an age gap. On top of that, my flgs is a half hour+ drive from my home. Since I started 40k, I've thrown plenty of business there, but if they're counting on me to stay afloat, they have a losing business strategy.

**Jancoran**

30 minutes doesnt seem very far.

**jreilly89**

Jancoran wrote:
30 minutes doesnt seem very far.

For a game? It's kind of inconvenient. 15 minutes is about the most I'd travel for someplace I want to visit once or twice a week. I think 30-45 is the "there's a concert there I wanna go see"

**Grief**

Griddlelol wrote:
tneva82 wrote:

Anyway nobody should be forced to buy stuff from FLGS for overprice to keep them float. It's FLGS job to come up with ideas players want to spend money there. Simply complaining about others for your trouble isn't going to be working.

Of course they're not forced to, but don't bitch about it if suddenly the shop closes, or stops 40K events. If you want your local store to stay open, you need to spend money there. Assuming it's going to stay around as some sort of free club where you can play with miniatures you bought from eBay is naive.

I do not agree with you. It is not the customer's job to keep businesses afloat.

If a FLGS no longer supports GW wh40k, it is because it is NOT profitible for that flgs.

I hope GW continues to ignore devotees such as yourself. Just keep smiling and open your wallet and give them your money for overpriced plastic toys. Heck, if you let them bend you over they can collect this months rent.

**jasper76**

@Jancoran: It's not that far in the grand scheme of things, but it's not right around the corner, either.

Anywho, it's not my fault that GW overprices their toys. It's not my fault that my flgs is in the business of selling their overpriced toys, and it's not my responsibility to buy overpriced toys just to help keep a business stay afloat (they will be fine anyways, as card games are their cash cow)

**Jancoran**

jasper76 wrote:
@Jancoran: It's not that far in the grand scheme of things, but it's not right around the corner, either.

Anywho, it's not my fault that GW overprices their toys. It's not my fault that my flgs is in the business of selling their overpriced toys, and it's not my responsibility to buy overpriced toys just to help keep a business stay afloat (they will be fine anyways, as card games are their cash cow)

Sure. We have a plethora of gaming options here, two major ones within about 20-30 minutes away and if i'm willing to tack on ten minutes there's a third. So I am spoiled rotten. I know I can get a couple games in so a 30 minute drive seems worth it to me.

**hobojebus**

Customers only duty is to themselves to find the best deal, they don't owe stores a living.

It's up to the store to attract people in to spend their money, if they can't it's on them not the customers.

**gungo**

hobojebus wrote:
GW treats stores like crap their contracts are horrendous for the small business owner it's no wonder with the loss of interest more and more are calling it quits.

Store owners have to go with what makes money and right now that's magic and x-wing.

Xwing doesn't make any flgs much money either in fact no minature game makes a lot of money for a flgs.
The problem with minature games are they don't move units quickly and sit on the shelf once the players in your area have whatever models they need. Xwing is just as bad with some sales when a new wave hits and stagnant shelves for months after. My flgs now went from a wall unit of xwing to a small rack in the center by discounted box games for xwing. And nearly every minature is sold as the same 40%-50% markdown to flgs. Xwing promotes flgs by selling them a store championship kit $60 or more with promo cards. However when my flgs runs an event they make more off the $10 registration fee then they do selling additional models.
The best thing GW did was set up the tank shock event because it sold them a $40 kit (which imho could have been a bit better then cardboard tokens and instead made acrylic tokens rewards) but it made the flgs stock more profitable by selling them stock at an additional 20% discount and allowed the flgs to get a preset order of models for around 60% off msrp. So when someone buys that $50 kit GW only recieves $20. Whoever thinks GW is overcharging for that price is insane. Most of the profit goes to the flgs.

**Davor**

Jancoran wrote:
Warhammer is probably better sold in major outlets like Target.

Not saying you are wrong, but I find it will be Hard to sell toys in a place like Target, Walmart what ever is, all those toys are already put together, painted, no extra work has to be done. If you want to paint and model, then 40K will be stuck where the models are. Thing is you don't play with models, so 40K products are what then?

GW would never fly of the shelf. Most people don't know what 40K is. So seeing a $50 price tag for a tank that is not even put together, then you need to buy glue, paint and then assemble it yourself, it would be easier for Mommy or Daddy to just buy a cheaper, or I should say BIGGER toy that is already painted and assembled for their little Timmy. I know I would. Why would I pay $50 for something that is basically the size of my hand but I can get a big toy that is like 2 feet long for $50.

So yeah 40K can never sell in Target or what not unless GW has their own little space there to promote "The Hobby". ( should there be a tm on The Hobby?

)

I can't see why the OP is upset about his store that he doesn't go to or buy from is dropping 40K. After about 10 or more years of my city not selling GW stuff, a store finally opened up and I buy from there, at full price. Why? Because he offers a place to play and people to get together. We all thought nobody played 40K in our area so it's a nice surprise to see there are players. So I buy and support the store now. Yeah sucks not having a small discount, but sucks even more not having any players. So it's a good trade off.

**jasper76**

Davor wrote:

I can't see why the OP is upset about his store that he doesn't go to or buy from is dropping 40K.

I'm mildly upset because I'm worried that this could lead to local player interest in 40K drying up. It's the only hobby shop that sells games in my area.

And I do buy 40k stuff from them occassionally, and they are my regular source for hobby paints.

**Davor**

jasper76 wrote:
Davor wrote:

I can't see why the OP is upset about his store that he doesn't go to or buy from is dropping 40K.

I'm mildly upset because I'm worried that this could lead to local player interest in 40K drying up. It's the only hobby shop that sells games in my area.

And I do buy 40k stuff from them occassionally, and they are my regular source for hobby paints.

How will 40K drying up in a store you to play in or buy in affect you? After all you are still getting in your games it seems. Don't get that part.

It goes both ways. We don't have the full story so really can't say what should be done. I see it both ways.

First you are correct. There is a reason why you don't shop there. Be it the gaming is bad, or you are getting better deals else where. If the store really wanted your business, they should be doing something to keep it. If they don't, they shouldn't be surprised when you shop else where. It's up to the store to keep you and do everything they can to keep you. Since you shop else where, that store is not doing anything to keep you. So of course you will shop else where. That is business 101. Give the customer what they want.

That being said, read what you are saying. OCCASIONALLY and buying Paints. Now you are not wrong in shopping else where as I said. Thing is, how many others are "shopping elsewhere" now? One person might not hurt, but a lot of people shopping else where, playing elsewhere and "occasionally buying, and just buying paints will not help a store survive. You know for small stores to buy GW they have to go through a lot of hassle, aggravation to be able to sell GW stuff? Even though it sounds like great savings for us, the store buys what at 40% or so, so they are getting a 60% mark up. Thing is that is what $25? So you buying $5 here and there for paint and then buy a $50 product that is what a $25 or $30 sale for the store. Not really a lot of money for them now is it?

Look at it this way. Would you bother jumping through hoops to just sell a $5 pot of paint or the occasional sale or two?

**jasper76**

I do buy 40K products from them occasionally. However, I only buy 40K products occasionally in general these days. It's not my responsibility to buy items more frequently just to keep the business running smooth. I have my own problems.

I don't play games at the flgs because I'm 40 years old and the vast majority of people who play there are teens to early twenties. Probably like many people, I prefer to socialize with people in my own general age group, and think it's creepy as gak for a middle age man to be hanging out with teenagers. So I play games with people around my age and we play in each others houses.

**EnTyme**

jreilly89 wrote:
Jancoran wrote:
30 minutes doesnt seem very far.

For a game? It's kind of inconvenient. 15 minutes is about the most I'd travel for someplace I want to visit once or twice a week. I think 30-45 is the "there's a concert there I wanna go see"

You wouldn't survive long in West Texas, then. We don't measure distance in "miles" we measure it in how long it takes to get there.

**jreilly89**

EnTyme wrote:
jreilly89 wrote:
Jancoran wrote:
30 minutes doesnt seem very far.

For a game? It's kind of inconvenient. 15 minutes is about the most I'd travel for someplace I want to visit once or twice a week. I think 30-45 is the "there's a concert there I wanna go see"

You wouldn't survive long in West Texas, then. We don't measure distance in "miles" we measure it in how long it takes to get there.

I wouldn't go to Texas for lots of reasons, let alone the distance

**Grumblewartz**

Jancoran wrote:
people worry too much about the "styate of 40K". if people would just play and stop wishing life was perfect, it would also probably help.

I mean lets not kid ourselves. We saw the models and said "daaaaayng, those are cool" and then we found out there were RULES for actually PLAYING them and we said "well shoot, i wanna play a Tau Empire force then, they look awesome" or whatever faction it was for you.

And then you learned how to play and had your teeth kicked in about a dozen times while learning, but that was okay because it was just so cool that you could do this.

and then as you start to win, and refine lists and complete collections, we start to lose the sense of wonder and start to slip into our selfishness and our natural inclination to be critical.

And then we start worrying about things that have nothing to do whatsoever with the core truth: these are world class awesome models AND theres rules for playing them. WHUUUUUUUT? But yes!

I have never lost that sense of wonder. i still love that i can play with these things,. Love it. I get annoyed by rules, i like to win like everyone else, but honestly, even if I'm on a bad streak, i keep coming back because its the funnest thing I have done besides Dungeons and Dragons (which is still probably my favorite game to play and likely always will be).

Anywho, the local FLGS needs active promotor personalities with a positive mental attitude to revitalize their stores trade i nthe stuff. Doom and gloom is a self perpetuating fail machine. So get facebook pages and forums started. Delete the negative nancies and start organizing stuff, keeping people informed on stuff and keep it front and center in their minds and the groups will return. they did here. i resurrected this communtiy locally when it was tough to get more than 6 to an event. We now have 20-30. it's great.

But it took someone like me willing to organize and go about THREE extra miles in order to kind of keep in touch and keep people playing and keep people informed.

Its work. it shouldnt be necessary. but the Land of Should is a lonely place. No one lives there and we only occassionally visit. No sense dwelling on Should's. Situation is King and if the situation is dire and you REALLY wanna turn it around, I promise you, you can.

I agree 100% with this sentiment. It isn't a matter of doing other people's jobs, as others have suggested, it is simply a matter of being involved in a hobby that requires a community. For example, I often organize narrative campaigns for the local store. There is no entry fee, I am not paid anything, neither is the store, but it gives people something to do other than pickup games or tournaments. We have a good two dozen players, and it does seem to be growing. In my experience, it is incredibly important to make sure there are different styles of play available, so that you can reach as many people as possible.

**koooaei**

40k is blooming here. But 90% of models are recasts.

**IronMaster**

I have to say we're lucky on the northern half of the East coast it would seem. The gaming store I play at regularly has games running and there are multiple stores in the general vicinity up and down the coast that run regular events. There's some solid gaming opportunities in the Pennsylvania/Delaware/New Jersey areas.

**WhiteBobcat**

I had a GW store open up in my area and it lasted only 3-4 years...and this is down the road from the site of a major gaming convention (Origins). I just think 40K is becoming too niche of a game with a cost of entry that fewer and fewer can afford. There are a couple FLGS's in the area that run regular 40K events and an annual GT tournament, but 40K is in no way the primary product of the stores.

Their bread and butter is really MtG (and other CCGs) and Heroclix. Why? Sealed events. Everybody wins. The shop sells product, the gamers take home new stuff, and get to play an event all at the same time. MtG does an excellent job of this with things like giving away intro packs, exclusive cards, launch events, etc. That's the kind of thing that gets people into stores. (People are also a lot more likely to casually drop $5-10 on cards instead of $50 on a set of models) 40K will never be a "booster pack" kind of game, but GW could do itself and its stores some favors with more special events and prize support.

**jonolikespie**

WhiteBobcat wrote:
I had a GW store open up in my area and it lasted only 3-4 years...and this is down the road from the site of a major gaming convention (Origins). I just think 40K is becoming too niche of a game with a cost of entry that fewer and fewer can afford. There are a couple FLGS's in the area that run regular 40K events and an annual GT tournament, but 40K is in no way the primary product of the stores.

Could be worse. They could have opened up a store literally underneath a FLGS and have to watch people heading upstairs and totally ignoring them

**jreilly89**

WhiteBobcat wrote:
I had a GW store open up in my area and it lasted only 3-4 years...and this is down the road from the site of a major gaming convention (Origins). I just think 40K is becoming too niche of a game with a cost of entry that fewer and fewer can afford. There are a couple FLGS's in the area that run regular 40K events and an annual GT tournament, but 40K is in no way the primary product of the stores.

Their bread and butter is really MtG (and other CCGs) and Heroclix. Why? Sealed events. Everybody wins. The shop sells product, the gamers take home new stuff, and get to play an event all at the same time. MtG does an excellent job of this with things like giving away intro packs, exclusive cards, launch events, etc. That's the kind of thing that gets people into stores. (People are also a lot more likely to casually drop $5-10 on cards instead of $50 on a set of models) 40K will never be a "booster pack" kind of game, but GW could do itself and its stores some favors with more special events and prize support.

While I agree with your second paragraph, 40k is definitely more a hobby than MtG, Hero Clix, etc. The reason those support the store (and every other store) is that A) they're addictive, B) relatively cheap to buy, and C) no need to assemble/paint. Literally rip it open and play.

**Stormonu**

jreilly89 wrote:
WhiteBobcat wrote:
I had a GW store open up in my area and it lasted only 3-4 years...and this is down the road from the site of a major gaming convention (Origins). I just think 40K is becoming too niche of a game with a cost of entry that fewer and fewer can afford. There are a couple FLGS's in the area that run regular 40K events and an annual GT tournament, but 40K is in no way the primary product of the stores.

Their bread and butter is really MtG (and other CCGs) and Heroclix. Why? Sealed events. Everybody wins. The shop sells product, the gamers take home new stuff, and get to play an event all at the same time. MtG does an excellent job of this with things like giving away intro packs, exclusive cards, launch events, etc. That's the kind of thing that gets people into stores. (People are also a lot more likely to casually drop $5-10 on cards instead of $50 on a set of models) 40K will never be a "booster pack" kind of game, but GW could do itself and its stores some favors with more special events and prize support.

While I agree with your second paragraph, 40k is definitely more a hobby than MtG, Hero Clix, etc. The reason those support the store (and every other store) is that A) they're addictive, B) relatively cheap to buy, and C) no need to assemble/paint. Literally rip it open and play.

I wouldn't claim 40K is more of a hobby than MtG or Heroclix - its like saying building model ships in a bottle is more of a hobby than golf because with golf you just grab a bunch of clubs and go out to the green.

**jreilly89**

Stormonu wrote:
jreilly89 wrote:
WhiteBobcat wrote:
I had a GW store open up in my area and it lasted only 3-4 years...and this is down the road from the site of a major gaming convention (Origins). I just think 40K is becoming too niche of a game with a cost of entry that fewer and fewer can afford. There are a couple FLGS's in the area that run regular 40K events and an annual GT tournament, but 40K is in no way the primary product of the stores.

Their bread and butter is really MtG (and other CCGs) and Heroclix. Why? Sealed events. Everybody wins. The shop sells product, the gamers take home new stuff, and get to play an event all at the same time. MtG does an excellent job of this with things like giving away intro packs, exclusive cards, launch events, etc. That's the kind of thing that gets people into stores. (People are also a lot more likely to casually drop $5-10 on cards instead of $50 on a set of models) 40K will never be a "booster pack" kind of game, but GW could do itself and its stores some favors with more special events and prize support.

While I agree with your second paragraph, 40k is definitely more a hobby than MtG, Hero Clix, etc. The reason those support the store (and every other store) is that A) they're addictive, B) relatively cheap to buy, and C) no need to assemble/paint. Literally rip it open and play.

I wouldn't claim 40K is more of a hobby than MtG or Heroclix - its like saying building model ships in a bottle is more of a hobby than golf because with golf you just grab a bunch of clubs and go out to the green.

Maybe more time intensive is a better phrase. I don't mean it's more of a hobby than MtG or Heroclix, I mean it's more expensive and more time consuming due to the modeling and painting nature of it. MtG and Heroclix are preassembled and prepainted, so it's just play and go.

**Davor**

jasper76 wrote:I do buy 40K products from them occasionally. However, I only buy 40K products occasionally in general these days. It's not my responsibility to buy items more frequently just to keep the business running smooth. I have my own problems.

I don't play games at the flgs because I'm 40 years old and the vast majority of people who play there are teens to early twenties. Probably like many people, I prefer to socialize with people in my own general age group, and think it's creepy as gak for a middle age man to be hanging out with teenagers. So I play games with people around my age and we play in each others houses.

Fair enough, I am like you then. Thing is, you didn't say it, so it came to me, that you bought else where. That is what I thought was wrong with what you said in your original post.

**jasper76**

What I never got about MtG and other CCGs is what's to stop people just lamnating their own cards.

People say 40K is more expensive but it's a matter how of how much money you choose to spend. At my flgs one time I saw a guy drop something like $200 on 4 cards for a tournament, and after he played the tournament, he sold the back to the store at a steep loss. I see people spending $50+ on cards there regularly. Since it's more instant gratification with what you get in a bunch of cards that you can instantly add to your deck, it might be more addictive gaming wise than a modeling game. I think there's probably alot of people who spend just as much or more than your average 40K player in cardgames

**hobojebus**

koooaei wrote:
40k is blooming here. But 90% of models are recasts.

A Mate who was our groups uber fanboy just bought pollux and the new 30k dreadnought from Russia both half the price of forgeworld and zero flaws.

When even the apologists of the group go to recasts you know prices have gone beyond what's reasonable.

**insaniak**

jreilly89 wrote:

Maybe more time intensive is a better phrase. I don't mean it's more of a hobby than MtG or Heroclix, I mean it's more expensive and more time consuming due to the modeling and painting nature of it. MtG and Heroclix are preassembled and prepainted, so it's just play and go.

Not requiring assembly or painting doesn't make a game less time intensive... It just means players spend less time painting or modelling. I've met MtG players who spend far, far more time and money on their hobby than I do on 40k.