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Just some thoughts...

GW stuff is part game figures, part collectibles. While there are some figures whose pricing makes you scratch your head ( daemonettes at 60 something per box..wth?) for the most part the price per figure....is comparable to other sci fi and fantasy figures. Now, I have something like 100 saxons and vikings on my to do list, and while GW figs come in around 4 dollars a figure, historical plastics are around 1 - 1.50. For a very monopose figure with few options and not as many bitz. It is give or take.

So I would not say they are over priced. Expensive...yes.

MTG...if you want to be competitive, than you are spending as much money if not more than a 40K player. And in theory, a 40K army's figures never become unplayable ( My wolf guard army was....but thats an exception). MTG does require you to switch figures and buy whole new decks. Which again, if you want to be competitive...can cost money. ( but with cash payouts and sellable prices, you can make a living at Magic, but not 40K.

Err GW's always messing around with power levels in order to invalidate older models and make you buy the newer kits.

You can still use the older squads but your hindering yourself by doing so.

All the years I've played I can count on one hand how many opponents brought painted armies, overwhelmingly I've faced bare grey plastic because they care far more about playing than painting and modelling.

And now the games in such a poor state £5 a toy soldier is unacceptable.

 insaniak wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

Maybe more time intensive is a better phrase. I don't mean it's more of a hobby than MtG or Heroclix, I mean it's more expensive and more time consuming due to the modeling and painting nature of it. MtG and Heroclix are preassembled and prepainted, so it's just play and go.

Not requiring assembly or painting doesn't make a game less time intensive... It just means players spend less time painting or modelling. I've met MtG players who spend far, far more time and money on their hobby than I do on 40k.

But that's what I mean. Less time painting or modeling = more time playing or building decks, etc.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

Maybe more time intensive is a better phrase. I don't mean it's more of a hobby than MtG or Heroclix, I mean it's more expensive and more time consuming due to the modeling and painting nature of it. MtG and Heroclix are preassembled and prepainted, so it's just play and go.

Not requiring assembly or painting doesn't make a game less time intensive... It just means players spend less time painting or modelling. I've met MtG players who spend far, far more time and money on their hobby than I do on 40k.

But that's what I mean. Less time painting or modeling = more time playing or building decks, etc.

Building deck=painting and modeling effectively. Preparing for the game.

tneva82 wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

Maybe more time intensive is a better phrase. I don't mean it's more of a hobby than MtG or Heroclix, I mean it's more expensive and more time consuming due to the modeling and painting nature of it. MtG and Heroclix are preassembled and prepainted, so it's just play and go.

Not requiring assembly or painting doesn't make a game less time intensive... It just means players spend less time painting or modelling. I've met MtG players who spend far, far more time and money on their hobby than I do on 40k.

But that's what I mean. Less time painting or modeling = more time playing or building decks, etc.

Building deck=painting and modeling effectively. Preparing for the game.

Yes, but not in the way I presented. OP asked why MtG and Heroclix were so popular, I presented the above. MtG and such are much less time consuming to prepare and play. Can you spend hours and hundreds of $$$ on decks? Sure, but you can also spend $10 on a premade deck, open it, and play. Much harder to do with 40k.

Can you even buy anything for £10 these days that's not paint or glue?

tneva82 wrote:


Building deck=painting and modeling effectively. Preparing for the game.

I disagree. Building deck=making an army on paper/battlescribe/what ever.

Painting and modeling=taking cards/pre painted minis out of the box.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jreilly89 wrote:

Yes, but not in the way I presented. OP asked why MtG and Heroclix were so popular, I presented the above. MtG and such are much less time consuming to prepare and play. Can you spend hours and hundreds of $$$ on decks? Sure, but you can also spend $10 on a premade deck, open it, and play. Much harder to do with 40k.

This is so true. My son just wants to play. That is why he loves MtG so much. Cheaper for him to get and he doesn't have to put anything together. I had to put Necrons together for him to play with me, but because of the crappy rules and how disorganized they are, he doesn't have fun playing anymore and rather focus his energy on MtG.

*edit*
Price point is also true. While he maybe have spent, $500 on MtG, that is over time. So while MtG can be just as expensive with GW in the long run, thing is, with MtG you can buy something for $5-$50 right away that he can save for and not the $100+ kits that GW is offering. So yes MtG is CHEAPER than GW when buying small purchases like a booster a week or what not, and playing in leagues once a week. It's still cheaper than GW.

The LGS gaming scene has become a lot more casual and board-game oriented over the years. 40K is strictly geared toward garage/basement play among friends and official tournaments. GW doesn't want to fit anywhere in between, because they are in the business of producing models and not games. What does an LGS have to do with models? 20 years ago you had American chain stores like Hobbytown that sold model kits, toy train sets and the like. They sold GW minis, but they didn't provide an environment for gaming because who wants a bunch of fat, smelly gamers scaring away kids who just want to build model kits? Yet Hobbytown was a much more appropriate vendor for GW than any LGS, because gaming stores are generally geared towards selling comics, cards and toys. GW doesn't make toys. They don't make games. They make models.

Meanwhile gaming stores don't want to sell paint, super glue or model kits. They want to sell instant gratification in neat little packages. They want children and casuals. They want the cute girl who thinks it'd be fun to put on spock ears and attend a convention once in her life, not the crusty grognard who spends his whole life dragging himself to conventions and tournaments across the country in order to justify collecting and building what is effectively a $10,000 model train set.

GW is reaching out to the casuals and the LGS crowds with new products like that 40K toy board game, but I doubt it will catch on or carry the company in a new direction. They had Heroquest and Space Hulk in the 90s, after all. As long as they stay a model company, they don't fall under the umbrella of "toys and games". Asking to play Warhammer at your LGS is like asking to play badminton at your LGS.

Wow, so many people think it is the job of the customer to keep the business afloat. I would highly suggest anyone who feels that way to go take a quick economics class.

I haven't bought a model from my FLGS in a long time. Not because I don't care about them, or because I don't play at that location or whatever, but because if I have $50 to spend on GW stuff for the month I would rather take that on to EBAY where I can buy upwards of 20 Stormboyz or two Mek Gunz rather then spend it at my FLGS ( who has to special order because they can't afford to keep much stock) and instead of getting 20 Storm Boyz or 2 Mek Gunz I end up with 10 Stormboyz or 1 Mek Gun (plus tax).


I do support my Store by purchasing drinks, snacks, Paint, Comics and dice from them, but I will not support GW ever again. They over price everything, they put the bare minimum of effort into writing rules, and they do not support the game well enough to justify me giving them the kind of money they ask for me to play the hobby.

SemperMortis wrote:

I do support my Store by purchasing drinks, snacks, Paint, Comics and dice from them, but I will not support GW ever again. They over price everything, they put the bare minimum of effort into writing rules, and they do not support the game well enough to justify me giving them the kind of money they ask for me to play the hobby.

I can never understand this "I will not support GW no more, but buy from eBay".

Why play the game then if you will not support the company? Yes I know it's one thing to get something cheaper if need be but it sounds you have something to grind against GW. So why play there game if you hate them that much?

Also how is a store going to survive on just drinks, snacks paint, comics and dice. Unless you don't play there, then ok, but if you play there, but don't buy from there, that is just wrong.

Davor wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

I do support my Store by purchasing drinks, snacks, Paint, Comics and dice from them, but I will not support GW ever again. They over price everything, they put the bare minimum of effort into writing rules, and they do not support the game well enough to justify me giving them the kind of money they ask for me to play the hobby.

I can never understand this "I will not support GW no more, but buy from eBay".

Why play the game then if you will not support the company? Yes I know it's one thing to get something cheaper if need be but it sounds you have something to grind against GW. So why play there game if you hate them that much?

Also how is a store going to survive on just drinks, snacks paint, comics and dice. Unless you don't play there, then ok, but if you play there, but don't buy from there, that is just wrong.

Because simply put, back when I started playing the company was decent. Now however? not so much. The company cares so little about its customer base that it is amazing that they are still able to turn a profit.

As far as why I still play? Because I love the game that I started playing 20 years ago. I also have a lot of money invested into this hobby and I would prefer to see them do a reboot and fix their glaring problems then to give them money and make them think everything is ok.

How does a store survive on drinks and snacks (convenience stores can answer that pretty easily) or hobby paints/dice and comic? Well ask comicbook stores they can answer that one for you as well.

I don't buy from my local store because they have exactly 3 boxes of Ork figures, 2 of boyz and 1 of nobz, I don't need any of that.

Davor wrote:

Why play the game then if you will not support the company? Yes I know it's one thing to get something cheaper if need be but it sounds you have something to grind against GW. So why play there game if you hate them that much?

Liking a game and liking the company that makes it aren't the same thing...

Also how is a store going to survive on just drinks, snacks paint, comics and dice.

By selling a lot of them?

insaniak wrote:By selling a lot of them?

This.

This.

A thousand times this.

Walking into my FLGS and purchasing sodas over the course of several hours is qualitatively no different from purchasing coffee and hanging out at McDonalds or Starbucks.

Yes, I'm using their tables. But it's not like I'm taking it with me when I leave.

 Traditio wrote:

Walking into my FLGS and purchasing sodas over the course of several hours is qualitatively no different from purchasing coffee and hanging out at McDonalds or Starbucks. .

Well, no, not exactly.

McDonalds and Starbucks have businesses specifically built around a model of selling very large quantities of food and/or beverages. Their stores are designed to fit this model.

Gaming stores are specifically built around a model of selling games. They often sell food and beverages in order to capture a little extra cash that would otherwise be walking out the door, but it's not actually what they are designed to do and so they are poorly equipped to maximise profits or move sufficient volume of sales from it in the same way as a store that actually sells such things as their primary focus.



The problem for games stores comes from the perception that they should also be a gaming venue, despite this causing all sorts of issues with keeping a store profitable... the main one being that it needs an awful lot of space, and that space has to be paid for. Some stores work around this by charging for table use. Some run as many organised (and paid for) events as possible to generate revenue that way. Some just treat it as a loss leader that will (hopefully) encourage sales while gamers are hanging about in the store.

And, of course, if the store closes, that gaming venue goes away, and gamers find themselves looking for somewhere else to play... which is where the perceived responsibility of the customer to support the store's chosen business model comes from.


That shouldered responsibility is always going to be dependent on just how much any given customer actually cares about that specific venue remaining open.

SemperMortis wrote:
Because simply put, back when I started playing the company was decent. Now however? not so much. The company cares so little about its customer base that it is amazing that they are still able to turn a profit.

I am like you, trust me, I know what you mean. I feel the exact same way. For me though not supporting someone means not having to do nothing with them anymore. That is all I meant. I guess "not supporting" we interpret that name differently.

How does a store survive on drinks and snacks (convenience stores can answer that pretty easily) or hobby paints/dice and comic? Well ask comicbook stores they can answer that one for you as well.

insaniak wrote:

Davor wrote:

Why play the game then if you will not support the company? Yes I know it's one thing to get something cheaper if need be but it sounds you have something to grind against GW. So why play there game if you hate them that much?

Liking a game and liking the company that makes it aren't the same thing...

Batter wife syndrome then? Or maybe just a broken marriage. "I still love him/her, but will not have sex, will not clean cook or support but we will still stay together for reasons."

Traditio wrote:

insaniak wrote:By selling a lot of them?

This.

This.

A thousand times this.

Walking into my FLGS and purchasing sodas over the course of several hours is qualitatively no different from purchasing coffee and hanging out at McDonalds or Starbucks.

Yes, I'm using their tables. But it's not like I'm taking it with me when I leave.

So then if a store survives by selling soda/drinks/snack/food, then to me they are in the wrong business.

Or if this is how stores make profits, or the answer then why does GW not do this?

Again, they are in the wrong business then. From what I have read or talked to the stores, they are not making much money on snacks and drinks. I guess each area is different then. I am just going by what I have seen in my area. And their answer most times the only reason they surveys is MtG, not soda/drinks/snacks or food.

GW shops are a different kettle of fish they don't pay their own bills like a flgs has to, they don't buy in their stock or pay wages the parent company does.

One man stores have one priority and that's sales which should be easy but due to prices being bonkers it's very hard to convince someone to start these days.

hobojebus wrote:
GW shops are a different kettle of fish they don't pay their own bills like a flgs has to, they don't buy in their stock or pay wages the parent company does.

One man stores have one priority and that's sales which should be easy but due to prices being bonkers it's very hard to convince someone to start these days.

nailed it, which is why most FLGS provide tables for people to play on, they might not charge for that table but they need them to attract the MTG people who pay through the nose, and to get those GW fans to come in and pay $1 for a can of soda that costs $.20 to purchase. They don't make as much money off the GW fans but they know they are an important part of the community and most have branched out to other hobbies as well as regularly purchasing new codexs, paints, brushes, dice, and the occasional new release.

As for why I still play and I don't support GW? Well I didn't answer that well last time. I will continue to play because I love the game, I will still show up to events and I will still get more models. What I won't do is pay GW any of that money. I will get them off EBAY or 3rd party vendors, because realistically I don't care about GW's licensing agreements and they can't do anything about it until I try to start selling myself which I won't do because of laziness

GW has shot themselves in the foot so many times that it has become a running joke in our community. No New FAQS/Errata in years. No public forums to communicate with GW, hell until recently you couldn't even contact them via Facebook.

The only way to contact GW was to E-mail or call directly, and then instead of talking to someone who can do something about the communities issues you talk to a glorified telemarketer who tells you that it isn't their fault, they can't do anything about it, but that they will try and see if someone who can do something about it will take a peak at it.

GW has known for YEARS the game is horribly imbalanced, and they want to keep it that way, they are hoping enough TFG WAAC players come about that they can make 1-3 armies super OP so that those WAAC TFG players go run and buy HUGE amounts of models for that army and rinse and repeat. Balance has never been a strong point for this company, but in recent years it has become terrible.

Davor wrote:


Batter wife syndrome then? Or maybe just a broken marriage. "I still love him/her, but will not have sex, will not clean cook or support but we will still stay together for reasons."

No, not very much like that at all.

So then if a store survives by selling soda/drinks/snack/food, then to me they are in the wrong business.

That would depend on just what sort of business they're in.

If they're getting to be a games store and not actualy making any money selling games, then yes, that would seem to be an issue.

If they're trying to be a gaming venue, and that's working for them, then they're doing it right...

 insaniak wrote:

Davor wrote:


Batter wife syndrome then? Or maybe just a broken marriage. "I still love him/her, but will not have sex, will not clean cook or support but we will still stay together for reasons."

No, not very much like that at all.

Then what would it be like?

If they're trying to be a gaming venue, and that's working for them, then they're doing it right...

I agree, thing is Nobody said gaming venue though, they said gaming stores.

Davor wrote:


Then what would it be like?

It would be like when someone has a miniatures game that they enjoy playing, despite not liking the prices of the miniatures for that game, or the business practices of the company that makes it.

Let's avoid trivialising one of the biggest social issues of Western culture by trying to equate collecting toy soldiers with domestic violence, shall we?

I don't like how Coca Cola operates death squads who murder peasants in Colombia, but I'll still pay for a Coke every now and then.

Good for you...?

Davor wrote:

If they're trying to be a gaming venue, and that's working for them, then they're doing it right...

I agree, thing is Nobody said gaming venue though, they said gaming stores.

In this context, I think it's more than fair to equate them given that we're talking about going in to use the facilities of a store (whether that's gaming tables, painting tables, card tables, etc).

Indeed. As gaming stores are expected to also be gaming venues, all it really comes down to is which way they choose to try to make their money.


As the internet gradually takes over from brick-and-mortar shopping, I suspect that more stores will have to look at ways to make the venue side of the business more profitable, because chasing the already-elusive retail dollar is going to get progressively harder.

SemperMortis wrote:
As for why I still play and I don't support GW? Well I didn't answer that well last time. I will continue to play because I love the game, I will still show up to events and I will still get more models. What I won't do is pay GW any of that money. I will get them off EBAY or 3rd party vendors, because realistically I don't care about GW's licensing agreements and they can't do anything about it until I try to start selling myself which I won't do because of laziness

I support your opinion in the sense that it is your money and you can choose to pay or play what you want, when you want to, but don't you think that buying products from third party vendors (provided they are not recasters) is not really functionally any different from buying from a FLGS? And that in either case, you're buying GW product off of someone who, going back down the line of resales, eventually bought it from GW?

Buying it from them gets them to put more money in GW's hands, since when you deplete a reseller's stock they (typically) need to replenish that stock. I understand the need to save money, as the costs behind buying some plastic or resin figurines is pretty ridiculous, but I think arguing that you don't support a FLGS because of your principles against supporting GW is kind of a fallacy. I myself buy most stuff off eBay, but I do support my store from time to time with model purchases in return for using their space.

Just my two cents. Not trying to devalue your position, I just think you might try thinking about this in a different way.

 Gratlugg wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
As for why I still play and I don't support GW? Well I didn't answer that well last time. I will continue to play because I love the game, I will still show up to events and I will still get more models. What I won't do is pay GW any of that money. I will get them off EBAY or 3rd party vendors, because realistically I don't care about GW's licensing agreements and they can't do anything about it until I try to start selling myself which I won't do because of laziness

I support your opinion in the sense that it is your money and you can choose to pay or play what you want, when you want to, but don't you think that buying products from third party vendors (provided they are not recasters) is not really functionally any different from buying from a FLGS? And that in either case, you're buying GW product off of someone who, going back down the line of resales, eventually bought it from GW?

Buying it from them gets them to put more money in GW's hands, since when you deplete a reseller's stock they (typically) need to replenish that stock. I understand the need to save money, as the costs behind buying some plastic or resin figurines is pretty ridiculous, but I think arguing that you don't support a FLGS because of your principles against supporting GW is kind of a fallacy. I myself buy most stuff off eBay, but I do support my store from time to time with model purchases in return for using their space.

Just my two cents. Not trying to devalue your position, I just think you might try thinking about this in a different way.

Ohh no, im talking about recasting 3rd parties. Companies that GW shuts down for violating a number of laws.

I did mention i buy everything else from the FLGS near me. Dice, Comics, paints and what not. I just refuse to give GW any money.

One thing stores need to do obviously is don't sell "don't have it".

Was looking for citadel and vallejo air colours. I need to order them online anyway due to nearest store being 60km away. Anyway figured maybe I'll buy from finnish store on principle they might deliver faster than english one...Well let's see.

Vallejo air: Nope. Zip. Nada. Nothing.
Citadel air: Few available, most(including all I wanted) 2-3 WEEKS from order.

British store: All available. One paint I saw as not in store with delivery 2-5 days. DAYS. Not WEEKS like finnish store.

Guess which one I went from? Postage is free for same for roughly same priced order as well. Okay postage takes 2-3 days more but ah well. 2-3 days more is still shorter than 2-3 weeks last time I checked.

Since I tend to be one shop to rule them all rather than order from n+1 store guess which one also has higher chance of getting other orders...

I would have to say that GW has done more to balance the game than other companies. Look at MtG for example I could go out and buy four mythic rares and put them in my deck and win with most of my friends or I could make every card in it rare even the lands. The point value in 40k may not be perfect but it does balance the game to a degree.

Our local gaming store isn't doing to well on the modeling side of things. They make most of their money from snacks and CCG. Even the comic book store attached doesn't do well...people walk in, check out a comic, and then buy it online to have it always available.

Personally, I think the business model needs to change for the BM stores. I remember watching the movie Kick Ass, and was blown away at the comic store they hang out in. It seemed to me to be more of a food/sit down place that happened to carry nerdy gear and comics, rather than a store. It seems a much better model than selling stuff people can get online at a bigger discount and relying on good will.

When we did play 40k, games could take between 2-4 hours per game, and nobody wants to leave and get food. But the only thing to eat is about 15 min away. If they served real food there, rather than candy, I'd pay for it. I'd probably buy 1-2 meals a day there, along with snacks throughout the day to support them. But I'm not going to buy a overpriced kit I don't need just to support them, I don't need or want any more models.

Akiasura wrote:
Our local gaming store isn't doing to well on the modeling side of things. They make most of their money from snacks and CCG. Even the comic book store attached doesn't do well...people walk in, check out a comic, and then buy it online to have it always available.

Personally, I think the business model needs to change for the BM stores. I remember watching the movie Kick Ass, and was blown away at the comic store they hang out in. It seemed to me to be more of a food/sit down place that happened to carry nerdy gear and comics, rather than a store. It seems a much better model than selling stuff people can get online at a bigger discount and relying on good will.

When we did play 40k, games could take between 2-4 hours per game, and nobody wants to leave and get food. But the only thing to eat is about 15 min away. If they served real food there, rather than candy, I'd pay for it. I'd probably buy 1-2 meals a day there, along with snacks throughout the day to support them. But I'm not going to buy a overpriced kit I don't need just to support them, I don't need or want any more models.

Okay, now I'm imagining the Kick Ass coffee shop/comic book store with game tables. I may have to look into the logistics of something like this.