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 Cobra66 wrote:
I would have to say that GW has done more to balance the game than other companies. Look at MtG for example I could go out and buy four mythic rares and put them in my deck and win with most of my friends or I could make every card in it rare even the lands. The point value in 40k may not be perfect but it does balance the game to a degree.

Err...no, ffg goes to great lengths, pp does but GW left us to rot with no erretas or faq's for years.

Bretonions had the same book for over a decade...A DECADE for feths sake.

They only started again because sales are tanking.

But despite that there's limits to what you can take in 40k. In MTG it's free from all restrictions. That was his point. In MTG you can take deck of best cards only. All you need to do is buy hell of a cards to get them or buy singles. Either way literally pay to win(or at least increase your chances of winning dramatically).

He wasn't talking about faqs or erratas.

Cobra66 wrote:I would have to say that GW has done more to balance the game than other companies. Look at MtG for example I could go out and buy four mythic rares and put them in my deck and win with most of my friends or I could make every card in it rare even the lands. The point value in 40k may not be perfect but it does balance the game to a degree.

So you have become TFG who needs to win then. Or you just have become TFG for making a super deck. A lot of people I know play MtG for fun as well as completion. When they play me they don't have the super duper deck that you just made.

Also how the heck is 40K balanced?

hobojebus wrote:

 Cobra66 wrote:
I would have to say that GW has done more to balance the game than other companies. Look at MtG for example I could go out and buy four mythic rares and put them in my deck and win with most of my friends or I could make every card in it rare even the lands. The point value in 40k may not be perfect but it does balance the game to a degree.

Err...no, ffg goes to great lengths, pp does but GW left us to rot with no erretas or faq's for years.

Bretonions had the same book for over a decade...A DECADE for feths sake.

They only started again because sales are tanking.

So true.

Davor wrote:

Cobra66 wrote:I would have to say that GW has done more to balance the game than other companies. Look at MtG for example I could go out and buy four mythic rares and put them in my deck and win with most of my friends or I could make every card in it rare even the lands. The point value in 40k may not be perfect but it does balance the game to a degree.

So you have become TFG who needs to win then. Or you just have become TFG for making a super deck. A lot of people I know play MtG for fun as well as completion. When they play me they don't have the super duper deck that you just made.

Also how the heck is 40K balanced?

So you assume MTG players aren't only interested in building most powerful deck but somehow every 40k player is...

Or is that one standard for MTG players and another for 40k players?

Not too surprising, indeed.
We had monthly local 40k tournaments here which I've organized. But this was until the 7th ed arrived. Then the tournament size went smaller and smaller and we skipped it. We have monthly apoc games but the number of participants dropped as well over time.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Not too surprising, indeed.
We had monthly local 40k tournaments here which I've organized. But this was until the 7th ed arrived. Then the tournament size went smaller and smaller and we skipped it. We have monthly apoc games but the number of participants dropped as well over time.

7th was a blatant cash grab it utterly failed to fix major issues, most of the fluff was copy and pasted over from 6th, and letting you take super heavies in normal games was gobsmackingly moronic, certainly not worth buying only two years after 6th.

I quit because of 7th it was no longer a game I wanted to play, unless 8th is a massive improvement i'll dump my stuff on eBay get what I can for them.

tneva82 wrote:

Davor wrote:

Cobra66 wrote:I would have to say that GW has done more to balance the game than other companies. Look at MtG for example I could go out and buy four mythic rares and put them in my deck and win with most of my friends or I could make every card in it rare even the lands. The point value in 40k may not be perfect but it does balance the game to a degree.

So you have become TFG who needs to win then. Or you just have become TFG for making a super deck. A lot of people I know play MtG for fun as well as completion. When they play me they don't have the super duper deck that you just made.

Also how the heck is 40K balanced?

So you assume MTG players aren't only interested in building most powerful deck but somehow every 40k player is...

Or is that one standard for MTG players and another for 40k players?

HUH? Cobra66 said he could go out and do it. He didn't say he would make a friendly deck but a most powerful one. That is what I was commenting on. I said if he did that he just became TFG. Where did I say all MtG or 40K players do this? Where is this assuming everyone does or doesn't do anything?

hobojebus wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Not too surprising, indeed.
We had monthly local 40k tournaments here which I've organized. But this was until the 7th ed arrived. Then the tournament size went smaller and smaller and we skipped it. We have monthly apoc games but the number of participants dropped as well over time.

7th was a blatant cash grab it utterly failed to fix major issues, most of the fluff was copy and pasted over from 6th, and letting you take super heavies in normal games was gobsmackingly moronic, certainly not worth buying only two years after 6th.

I quit because of 7th it was no longer a game I wanted to play, unless 8th is a massive improvement i'll dump my stuff on eBay get what I can for them.

What fits into the picture is that a GW store manager told one of my friends recently that "40k is dead". Surprising statement, maybe not.

 wuestenfux wrote:

hobojebus wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Not too surprising, indeed.
We had monthly local 40k tournaments here which I've organized. But this was until the 7th ed arrived. Then the tournament size went smaller and smaller and we skipped it. We have monthly apoc games but the number of participants dropped as well over time.

7th was a blatant cash grab it utterly failed to fix major issues, most of the fluff was copy and pasted over from 6th, and letting you take super heavies in normal games was gobsmackingly moronic, certainly not worth buying only two years after 6th.

I quit because of 7th it was no longer a game I wanted to play, unless 8th is a massive improvement i'll dump my stuff on eBay get what I can for them.

What fits into the picture is that a GW store manager told one of my friends recently that "40k is dead". Surprising statement, maybe not.

Store managers will also tell you that 7th didn't make normal 40k more like Apocalypse.

 wuestenfux wrote:

hobojebus wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Not too surprising, indeed.
We had monthly local 40k tournaments here which I've organized. But this was until the 7th ed arrived. Then the tournament size went smaller and smaller and we skipped it. We have monthly apoc games but the number of participants dropped as well over time.

7th was a blatant cash grab it utterly failed to fix major issues, most of the fluff was copy and pasted over from 6th, and letting you take super heavies in normal games was gobsmackingly moronic, certainly not worth buying only two years after 6th.

I quit because of 7th it was no longer a game I wanted to play, unless 8th is a massive improvement i'll dump my stuff on eBay get what I can for them.

What fits into the picture is that a GW store manager told one of my friends recently that "40k is dead". Surprising statement, maybe not.

I don't think 40k is dead, I believe that it is surely dying though. The interest in the game has dropped off significantly. I used to go to Saturday/sunday game days and see 10-20 people at the store, Even the larger stores with 8+ tables had people waiting to use the tables. Now? Most of that space is being used for storage or other stock because 40k doesn't draw nearly as much.

Here is my take as a very new player.

The game is fething expensive and people shame you for finding cheaper alternatives.

I love my local store and I buy from them where I can. I even have even asked them to place orders for me even though I could have done it faster, easier, and probably cheaper through the GW website myself.

But I've also scoured ebay and craiglist looking for good deals and been called a scumbag (somewhat playfully, granted) for it.

And that's just the dang models. You also need books. Supplements. Templates. You need a way to transport your stuff. You're talking about hundreds of dollars on its own.

It's just so much damn money.

Qlanth wrote:
Here is my take as a very new player.

The game is fething expensive and people shame you for finding cheaper alternatives.

I love my local store and I buy from them where I can. I even have even asked them to place orders for me even though I could have done it faster, easier, and probably cheaper through the GW website myself.

But I've also scoured ebay and craiglist looking for good deals and been called a scumbag (somewhat playfully, granted) for it.

And that's just the dang models. You also need books. Supplements. Templates. You need a way to transport your stuff. You're talking about hundreds of dollars on its own.

It's just so much damn money.

Yes it is, so much damn money. Thing is, you want it or not. I want but will not pay the price GW asks. So I don't buy.

As for anyone shaming you, they are a holes. Nobody should shame anyone for you trying to find alternative ways to play. You are better off not even associating people like that. They are scum. Hopefully I just didn't call your family scum now.

Davor wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Davor wrote:

Cobra66 wrote:I would have to say that GW has done more to balance the game than other companies. Look at MtG for example I could go out and buy four mythic rares and put them in my deck and win with most of my friends or I could make every card in it rare even the lands. The point value in 40k may not be perfect but it does balance the game to a degree.

So you have become TFG who needs to win then. Or you just have become TFG for making a super deck. A lot of people I know play MtG for fun as well as completion. When they play me they don't have the super duper deck that you just made.

Also how the heck is 40K balanced?

So you assume MTG players aren't only interested in building most powerful deck but somehow every 40k player is...

Or is that one standard for MTG players and another for 40k players?

HUH? Cobra66 said he could go out and do it. He didn't say he would make a friendly deck but a most powerful one. That is what I was commenting on. I said if he did that he just became TFG. Where did I say all MtG or 40K players do this? Where is this assuming everyone does or doesn't do anything?

If you rely on opponent handicapping himself that applies to 40k at which point there's no point commenting on 40k because it's handled by players.

But unlike MTG 40k at least has some sort of system besides gamers agreement to balance things out. It's not perfect but at least unlike game isn't designed "he who spends most money has most powerful army". Unlike MTG.

Except of course, that like most games, 40k has a shifting meta over time that must be kept up with, so what may have been cheap and funcional last year wont work this year and youll need a new army

Likewise, with MTG, you can get amazing cards relatively cheap if you draw them from a pack, granted its luck of the draw, but its there. It is the secondary market driven by supply and demand that makes it so expensive if you are after specific cards, but WotC themselves doesnt charge anyone $30 for a card, the secondary market does.

Qlanth wrote:
Here is my take as a very new player.

The game is fething expensive and people shame you for finding cheaper alternatives.

The greatest trick GW ever pulled was convincing the world that other tabletop games are an "alternative" to 40k.

Checkers is for Checkers players, Warmachine is for Warmachine players, Battletech is for Battletech players, 40k is for 40k players. There are no "alternatives" to any of these games. You either play the game or you don't.

If the FLGS crowd makes fun of you for suggesting a different game, they're world-class D-bags and you don't want to play any sort of game with them. They're not going to magically transform into decent human beings because you convince them to play a game of Warmachine. A TFG by any other name is still TFG, and everything TFG touches turns to crap.

 Real News wrote:
The greatest trick GW ever pulled was convincing the world that other tabletop games are an "alternative" to 40k.

Checkers is for Checkers players, Warmachine is for Warmachine players, Battletech is for Battletech players, 40k is for 40k players. There are no "alternatives" to any of these games. You either play the game or you don't.

If the FLGS crowd makes fun of you for suggesting a different game, they're world-class D-bags and you don't want to play any sort of game with them. They're not going to magically transform into decent human beings because you convince them to play a game of Warmachine. A TFG by any other name is still TFG, and everything TFG touches turns to crap.

Nice rant, but the post you quoted was talking about alternative sources for 40k models (buying used stuff on ebay, etc) not playing other games instead of 40k. Read before ranting next time?

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
40k was all but dead in my old area. Asking for 50+ dollars for a 5 man squad that you'll need many duplicates of just killed any potential for newbies. I can only imagine the horrors NZ and Australia went through.

Or the same thing in the US if you play Sisters.

 jonolikespie wrote:

 WhiteBobcat wrote:
I had a GW store open up in my area and it lasted only 3-4 years...and this is down the road from the site of a major gaming convention (Origins). I just think 40K is becoming too niche of a game with a cost of entry that fewer and fewer can afford. There are a couple FLGS's in the area that run regular 40K events and an annual GT tournament, but 40K is in no way the primary product of the stores.

Could be worse. They could have opened up a store literally underneath a FLGS and have to watch people heading upstairs and totally ignoring them

Sydney Central Good Games.
I've looked into the basement GW...lets just say ignorance is not missing much.

Sorry, back on topic.
My FLGS doesn't charge for tables, holds at least one mini tournament a week, a one day tournament every month and is trying to kick off a 6 month planet strike-ish campaign, all for 40k. The reason is that the 40k community goes out of their way to make sure the FLGS wants them around, they build and donate terrain, they clean up after their games (MtG and Yugioh players are terrible, they leave rubbish everywhere), the 40k community pitches in and donates to a store credit pool that goes to the best new player encouraging new people into their community. The reason the FLGS keeps a $5000 GW shelf is because the 40k community makes it worth it to the store.

It's the FLGS job to stay afloat but it's not their job to keep a community that isn't making them any money.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Except of course, that like most games, 40k has a shifting meta over time that must be kept up with, so what may have been cheap and funcional last year wont work this year and youll need a new army

Likewise, with MTG, you can get amazing cards relatively cheap if you draw them from a pack, granted its luck of the draw, but its there. It is the secondary market driven by supply and demand that makes it so expensive if you are after specific cards, but WotC themselves doesnt charge anyone $30 for a card, the secondary market does.

You think it's going to be cheap by luck of the draw to get deck of ONLY the most powerful cards? Ie no inferior card if there's better card available...

Good luck! Might just as well try your luck with lotto if you think you don't need to buy crapload of packs to get that deck.

Yes you CAN get deck cheaply. You just are outclassed by somebody who spends up crapload of money either by buying ridiculous number of packs or buying them singly. That's pretty much pay to win...Since there's no restrictions BESIDES your real money in deck building you have just 2 options. Pay a lot or accept worse deck.

tneva82 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Except of course, that like most games, 40k has a shifting meta over time that must be kept up with, so what may have been cheap and funcional last year wont work this year and youll need a new army

Likewise, with MTG, you can get amazing cards relatively cheap if you draw them from a pack, granted its luck of the draw, but its there. It is the secondary market driven by supply and demand that makes it so expensive if you are after specific cards, but WotC themselves doesnt charge anyone $30 for a card, the secondary market does.

You think it's going to be cheap by luck of the draw to get deck of ONLY the most powerful cards? Ie no inferior card if there's better card available...

I did say it was luck of the draw, but there are mechanisms to obtain very good cards very cheaply to at least somewhat offset the cost of buying them all individually, and doing so also gets you the more mundane stuff the fill up most of the deck.

Likewise, if you're not playing at high levels of competition with people spending lots of money, this works perfectly well. With 40k, you can be playing super casually and still run into both gigantic balance issues *and* different armies costing vastly different sums. An IG army for example will generally cost 40-100% more than a Space Marine army just due to the larger number of models required.

tneva82 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Except of course, that like most games, 40k has a shifting meta over time that must be kept up with, so what may have been cheap and funcional last year wont work this year and youll need a new army

Likewise, with MTG, you can get amazing cards relatively cheap if you draw them from a pack, granted its luck of the draw, but its there. It is the secondary market driven by supply and demand that makes it so expensive if you are after specific cards, but WotC themselves doesnt charge anyone $30 for a card, the secondary market does.

You think it's going to be cheap by luck of the draw to get deck of ONLY the most powerful cards? Ie no inferior card if there's better card available...

Good luck! Might just as well try your luck with lotto if you think you don't need to buy crapload of packs to get that deck.

Yes you CAN get deck cheaply. You just are outclassed by somebody who spends up crapload of money either by buying ridiculous number of packs or buying them singly. That's pretty much pay to win...Since there's no restrictions BESIDES your real money in deck building you have just 2 options. Pay a lot or accept worse deck.

MTG player here, you do know that there are many formats for MTG aside from standard, right? Draft is $15 to $30, sealed is slightly more and those formats are don't allow you to play with cards outide of the 3 or 6 packs you get. There are also formats like pauper (all commons), commander (100 card singleton). MTG has budget options where no amount of money gives you an advantage.

 Canadian 5th wrote:


MTG player here, you do know that there are many formats for MTG aside from standard, right? Draft is $15 to $30, sealed is slightly more and those formats are don't allow you to play with cards outide of the 3 or 6 packs you get. There are also formats like pauper (all commons), commander (100 card singleton). MTG has budget options where no amount of money gives you an advantage.

Well at least there is one thing that GW would love about this format. It's a random. All cards are random and GW just loves random.

Imagine playing a 40K league or even and everything was random to the faction you play to the minis you can use. Just like poker, it would be luck of the draw.

Well any fool can make a chart and tell you to roll a die, means they can employ fewer real games developers.

Davor wrote:

Imagine playing a 40K league or even and everything was random to the faction you play to the minis you can use. Just like poker, it would be luck of the draw.

This sounds like fun to me.

 jasper76 wrote:

Davor wrote:

Imagine playing a 40K league or even and everything was random to the faction you play to the minis you can use. Just like poker, it would be luck of the draw.

This sounds like fun to me.

There was an FLGS that did a 40k "draft" tournament where you assembled your list from the available models provided, taking turns buying units.

You'll have to search for that thread. I'd do that with my buddies, but I wouldn't take my models for other people to use I didn't know well.

 kronk wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:

Davor wrote:

Imagine playing a 40K league or even and everything was random to the faction you play to the minis you can use. Just like poker, it would be luck of the draw.

This sounds like fun to me.

There was an FLGS that did a 40k "draft" tournament where you assembled your list from the available models provided, taking turns buying units.

You'll have to search for that thread. I'd do that with my buddies, but I wouldn't take my models for other people to use I didn't know well.

My FLGS is doing a Get Started box league. All you do is pick a faction that has a Get Started box and using only the minis in the box, make an army for 400 points. I think it goes for 6 months or or so. We play 2 games per month. I think that can be the closest to a blind like Magic, but can't be a blind because we have to assemble and paint our minis ahead of time.

I am just shocked how much fun it can be playing at 400 points with only the contents you have.