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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




What units are considered a tax in your codex? What purpose can they serve besides standing on an objective and trying not to die? I would really like to think that GW isn't as stupid as to make these units but with experience I know they are i fact that stupid.

For Orks our Tax unit is Grots. Our better formations require at least one unit of Grots to be fielded. They have no purpose in the game besides as a tax or a cheap objective holding unit that can't do anything for the rest of the game except soak up enemy fire using a cover save.

It shows you how much GW hates my poor orks when they take the best BS model in our army and give them S3, AP- 12in pistols with no option to upgrade to anything more powerful or longer ranged and whose stat lines leave them useless in every category.

The only other possible use grots have in the game is to act as a giant mobile intervening model cover save for Ork boyz. But even that isn't remotely worth paying for since it is so situational and can be rather quickly ignored. Or grant the enemy an easy VP

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut






Whut no purpose... Grots are actually good.
They would be even better if they where cheaper but I never leave home without them.

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 oldzoggy wrote:
Whut no purpose... Grots are actually good.
They would be even better if they where cheaper but I never leave home without them.


What do you use them for zoggy?

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut






Tons of stuff.

Standing in the way. This seems trivial but is a huge part of the game. You can't deepstrike or even move trough an area occupied by grots. Grots are the isolation foam of my army preventing my opponents army from creeping in where I don't want them to.

They are perfect back field terrain sitters. No way that I will spend more points on a unit if it is just going to sit there.

They are small, really small getting a decent cover save with them is easy.

They shoot fortification weapons when I bring them.

They shield important units from being assaulted.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
And the fun really starts when you put them in cheap transports.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A more advanced usage of them is to lure opponents to a specific position this isn't that hard since you know that they are likely to break in any combat.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/06/30 12:43:44


Inactive, user. New profile might pop up in a while 
   
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Every ba unit is a tax
   
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 Shadenuat wrote:
Voted Astra Militarum for a chance for them to get nerfed instead of my own army.
 
   
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Bodt

Possessed. KDK requires them in a Slaughtercult, just about all of the new CS/BL formations need one. Crimson Slaughter ones are a bit better, and KDK at least benefits from both MoK and Daemon of Khorne, but they're really tough to use effectively. They're also quite expensive.

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Most troop choices in marine armies, for obvious reasons.

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Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.


When I'm editing alot, you know I have a gakload of homework to (not) do. 
   
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They're viable but wherever they show in a non-dedicated formation it's in such a way that hinders making the most of them. i.e. Massed outflank

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Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

Vypers and Warlocks for an Eldar Wind Rider host. The only purpose they serve is to balance the formation.
The WraithLord in a Wraith Host formation.

I actually like the idea to "tax" units in formations. It gives you a bonus for taking something fluffy. You'll notice that all the "broken" formations don't really have 'tax' units

   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Most troop choices in marine armies, for obvious reasons.


I don't think you understand what I said, a Tactical Marine or a scout for that matter is not a tax in the way that I am saying is a tax. Marine Tacs have several useful abilities to use that effect the game besides standing on an objective.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
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Dallas area, TX

SemperMortis wrote:
 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Most troop choices in marine armies, for obvious reasons.


I don't think you understand what I said, a Tactical Marine or a scout for that matter is not a tax in the way that I am saying is a tax. Marine Tacs have several useful abilities to use that effect the game besides standing on an objective.

I think you should not use the term "tax" as that implies a unit that you MUST bring, such as those I mentioned for formations or the basic troops you need to field a CAD. Grots are not a tax for all the reasons OldZoggy listed. Nurglings are another example. They don't shoot (other than defensive grenades) and even though they have lots of attacks, Str3 doesn't do squat. What they excel at is filling you Troop need cheaply and NEVER dying (expect against Tau).

I think instead of "tax" unit, you are trying to describe a "liability" unit. A unit that doesn't fill a tactical need and just takes up points, or a unit that is out done by a similar unit in the same book.
Dark Eldar Hellion come to mind in this case. Cool models, but Reavers do what they do better. Hellions are not cheap enough to make it up by numbers

--

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/30 13:43:49


   
Made in ie
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Kildare, Ireland

SemperMortis wrote:
What units are considered a tax in your codex? What purpose can they serve besides standing on an objective and trying not to die? I would really like to think that GW isn't as stupid as to make these units but with experience I know they are i fact that stupid.


The original use of the term(from 3rd ed onward) referred to your required 'troops' on the force org chart. You needed to bring 2 troops minimum in order to get three slots of heavy support, three slots of elites and three slots of fast attack.

The current issue is that units powerful enough to be considered 'support' units are being fielded as troops- jetbike units encrusted with heavy weapons for instance. The other issue is formations full of support units, bypassing line infantry entirely.

[Thumb - Force org rationale.JPG]

   
Made in ca
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






SemperMortis wrote:
 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Most troop choices in marine armies, for obvious reasons.


I don't think you understand what I said, a Tactical Marine or a scout for that matter is not a tax in the way that I am saying is a tax. Marine Tacs have several useful abilities to use that effect the game besides standing on an objective.


The problem is any job a Tactical Marine can do, Devastators, Sternguards and even assault marines can do better. They are a tax purely because if I wasn't forced to take them to fulfill my CAD or Demi-company requirements, I would never take them since the other options exist.

Gwar! wrote:Huh, I had no idea Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines posted on Dakka. Hi Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I have an Autograph!


Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.


When I'm editing alot, you know I have a gakload of homework to (not) do. 
   
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 Galef wrote:
Vypers and Warlocks for an Eldar Wind Rider host. The only purpose they serve is to balance the formation.
The WraithLord in a Wraith Host formation.

I actually like the idea to "tax" units in formations. It gives you a bonus for taking something fluffy. You'll notice that all the "broken" formations don't really have 'tax' units


The vyper feels more like a tax in the foot-based hosts. I can see it’s place in the windrider. While not in the formation, I have enjoyed fielding a pair with double shurcannons. Lots of dakka for the points. Of course, like most things in the Eldar codex, it suffers from not being a scatbike.

I’ll agree on the warlock in the Wind Rider. I view him as a pure tax. Mostly because I can’t see myself fielding more then just the one lone guy larking about, filling the slot. If they weren’t 50 points and $33 each, I would be tempted to field a relevant squad of them.

I don’t view anything in the marine codex as a tax. But then, I like tactical marines. They might be mediocre, but the army is not the same without a squad or two of them on the table.

   
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"tax" is one of those meaningless terms like "cheese". The real definition of "tax" is "anything I don't want to take" just as the real definition of "cheese" is "anything I don't like playing against."

Although if you define tax as the unit jammed into formations that never seems to really benefit from them, for my preferred army it's the Voidweaver. 1 (and only ever 1) unit of voidweavers is mandatory in all but 2 Harlequin formations, and it's mandatory in the detachment as the only heavy support choice.

It only benefits at all from one formation, where it gets a re-roll to its jink...and its main gun is a blast weapon so it doesn't want to jink.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
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On moon miranda.

"Tax" is what people call units they dont want to take or run, but have to for certain things. They're usually included for some fluff or sales reason, though people term them "tax" units as if there is some balance purpose behind their inclusion to hinder the otherwise insane power of some formations, though such reasoning is directly contrary to GW's design philosophy as they ostensibly don't care or think about balance at all.

TL;DR it's what some people call units they dont like but run anyway for whatever reason.

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The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
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Canada

For Orks, I think of Nobz as more of the tax in most of their formations. Nobz on foot are simply not effective for their points, and because of this (and the fact that more veteran Warbosses will likely have a load of the Aobr ones kicking about) the kit doesn't sell very well. Because it doesn't sell well, GW puts it in damn near every bundle to try and shift some of them.

A real shame, as fluff-wise and model-wise they are pretty damn cool. Pity their rules don't come close.
   
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Tax is not meaningless. It is a term for mathematically inferior units that must be taken to fulfill force org restrictions.
   
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cedar rapids, iowa

There is no TAX unit. The concept comes from a terrible place in wargaming called the internet.

Most units can be useful, there are rare occurances in 40k of a unit being unuseful. (4th ed chaos spawn come to mind....)

I will use the kdk possesed example. For starters that unit is worth a blood tithe so it is already useful by being there. Is it the best at that? No. But it is still useful. Additionally, if you design the entire army considering their impact then you will play better as a whole.

Get rid of this tax crap idea, it is a formation, you have to take it, you may as well use the unit or just take a cad if you do not like it.

 
   
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Preacher of the Emperor





Denver, CO, USA

 sfshilo wrote:
Additionally, if you design the entire army considering their impact then you will play better as a whole.


Some thing like this is where I stand.

In my Battle Sisters lists, the basic Battle Sisters squads could feel like a tax, but I think I make good use of them. I'll mech one up with flamers and run it onto a midfield objective, or I'll leave a pair of them-- one with flamers to make charges more costly, one with storm bolters to increase RoF at medium range-- to camp a backfield objective. They rarely kill their points (70 each), but 5 suits of power armor takes some work to gun down and they always nab a few VPs.

They only start to feel anything like a tax-- a difficult unit to find a meaningful use for-- when I open the second CAD.

   
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 Lord Corellia wrote:
For Orks, I think of Nobz as more of the tax in most of their formations. Nobz on foot are simply not effective for their points, and because of this (and the fact that more veteran Warbosses will likely have a load of the Aobr ones kicking about) the kit doesn't sell very well. Because it doesn't sell well, GW puts it in damn near every bundle to try and shift some of them.

A real shame, as fluff-wise and model-wise they are pretty damn cool. Pity their rules don't come close.


It's a good thing that their bikes are equipment, and not a separate unit, so in almost every instance nobz can be replaced with the superior nob bikers.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
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 Nevelon wrote:
 Galef wrote:
Vypers and Warlocks for an Eldar Wind Rider host. The only purpose they serve is to balance the formation.
The WraithLord in a Wraith Host formation.

I actually like the idea to "tax" units in formations. It gives you a bonus for taking something fluffy. You'll notice that all the "broken" formations don't really have 'tax' units


The vyper feels more like a tax in the foot-based hosts. I can see it’s place in the windrider. While not in the formation, I have enjoyed fielding a pair with double shurcannons. Lots of dakka for the points. Of course, like most things in the Eldar codex, it suffers from not being a scatbike.

I’ll agree on the warlock in the Wind Rider. I view him as a pure tax. Mostly because I can’t see myself fielding more then just the one lone guy larking about, filling the slot. If they weren’t 50 points and $33 each, I would be tempted to field a relevant squad of them.

I don’t view anything in the marine codex as a tax. But then, I like tactical marines. They might be mediocre, but the army is not the same without a squad or two of them on the table.


I am glad there is another like me! Something about Tactical Marines just fits for me. Sure other units can do what they do better, but as you stated it just isn't the same without them. Everyone always says take scouts to fill your troop choice. Well I don't want to take scouts just to fill my troop choice. I want to take Tactical Marines because that is what Space Marines would do!

 
   
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SemperMortis wrote:
What units are considered a tax in your codex? What purpose can they serve besides standing on an objective and trying not to die? I would really like to think that GW isn't as stupid as to make these units but with experience I know they are i fact that stupid.

For Orks our Tax unit is Grots. Our better formations require at least one unit of Grots to be fielded. They have no purpose in the game besides as a tax or a cheap objective holding unit that can't do anything for the rest of the game except soak up enemy fire using a cover save.

It shows you how much GW hates my poor orks when they take the best BS model in our army and give them S3, AP- 12in pistols with no option to upgrade to anything more powerful or longer ranged and whose stat lines leave them useless in every category.

The only other possible use grots have in the game is to act as a giant mobile intervening model cover save for Ork boyz. But even that isn't remotely worth paying for since it is so situational and can be rather quickly ignored. Or grant the enemy an easy VP


You call them tax but they are still best troop choice in current codex AINEC..

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I'd say the Immortals in the Decurion are a tax. Or are the Warriors?
I'd have preferred for them to make you choose three total, rather than 2 Warrior Squads and an Immortal squad. Thems the breaks, though. An elite force of Immortals would've been cool without having to deal with Warriors, ya know?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 sfshilo wrote:
There is no TAX unit. The concept comes from a terrible place in wargaming called the internet.

Most units can be useful, there are rare occurances in 40k of a unit being unuseful. (4th ed chaos spawn come to mind....)

I will use the kdk possesed example. For starters that unit is worth a blood tithe so it is already useful by being there. Is it the best at that? No. But it is still useful. Additionally, if you design the entire army considering their impact then you will play better as a whole.

Get rid of this tax crap idea, it is a formation, you have to take it, you may as well use the unit or just take a cad if you do not like it.

It's this kind of reasoning that people keep asking how to use Rubric Marines. There's such a thing as many garbage units.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/30 17:45:57


CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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Void Weavers.
   
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Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

Bharring wrote:
Void Weavers.

^^THIS, so much this. Not only do Harlequin not have an HQ, thus making it impossible to field a CAD, but almost every formation/detachment requires that dang VoidWeaver!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/30 18:15:05


   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




the_scotsman wrote:
 Lord Corellia wrote:
For Orks, I think of Nobz as more of the tax in most of their formations. Nobz on foot are simply not effective for their points, and because of this (and the fact that more veteran Warbosses will likely have a load of the Aobr ones kicking about) the kit doesn't sell very well. Because it doesn't sell well, GW puts it in damn near every bundle to try and shift some of them.

A real shame, as fluff-wise and model-wise they are pretty damn cool. Pity their rules don't come close.


It's a good thing that their bikes are equipment, and not a separate unit, so in almost every instance nobz can be replaced with the superior nob bikers.


Except nob bikers are horribly inefficient and extremely over priced for what little they do. 3 Nob bikers, with zero upgrades are 135pts, give them Big Choppas and one of them a PK and your at 170pts, they can still be doubled out (rare but can still happen) they are still only S4 and can't be relied upon to do much because there are so few of them.

For 161pts you could take 6 warbikers led by a warbiker nob with a PK, more then twice as much Dakka as the Nob squad, 33% more wounds (2), you only lose out on their S7 Big Choppa Attacks (8 on the charge) and instead gain 24 (on the charge) S4 attacks.

Or conversely if you wanted to take an elite choice, you could take 3 Meganobz with PKs and 2+ armor in a Trukk with a Ram for 155pts. More PK attacks, more durable armor (less toughness) and you pay fewer points.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
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 sfshilo wrote:
There is no TAX unit. The concept comes from a terrible place in wargaming called the internet.

Most units can be useful, there are rare occurances in 40k of a unit being unuseful. (4th ed chaos spawn come to mind....)

I will use the kdk possesed example. For starters that unit is worth a blood tithe so it is already useful by being there. Is it the best at that? No. But it is still useful. Additionally, if you design the entire army considering their impact then you will play better as a whole.

Get rid of this tax crap idea, it is a formation, you have to take it, you may as well use the unit or just take a cad if you do not like it.


There are indeed tax units.
   
Made in nz
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Auckland, NZ

Tyranid Warriors.
Expensive, poor outside of close combat, and very easy to kill. I guess no one was buying them, so GW tacked them on to a whole bunch of formations. Usually with a rule where the formation only gets its bonus while the warriors remain alive.

Want a living artillery node? Take some warriors to uselessly stand around the artillery creatures.
An endless swarm? They don't even do anything here, but better throw in some warriors just in case.
Bioblast node? wrecker node? You know those carnifexes need some worthless warriors to help out.
   
 
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