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Jancoran wrote: Maelstrom is definitely fun. I dont know why the TC insists on having it in their tournaments since such a random thing is probably not AS good an idea in competitive play but it is at least a more engaging mechanic. Ultimately I like more normal misions for organized play and Maelstrom for casual play.
Do you not understand how the ITC format works?
Uh...I am pretty sure. Yes. Given my standing in the ITC, I'd say there's no problem there.
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
Jancoran wrote: Maelstrom is definitely fun. I dont know why the TC insists on having it in their tournaments since such a random thing is probably not AS good an idea in competitive play but it is at least a more engaging mechanic. Ultimately I like more normal misions for organized play and Maelstrom for casual play.
Do you not understand how the ITC format works?
Uh...I am pretty sure. Yes. Given my standing in the ITC, I'd say there's no problem there.
I actually dont. Here about it alot, but not seen the actual format. What is the short version on it?
approach it in this way:
1) are there easy counters? (TF's are amazing against tau... hurts so good hehe)
2) are there hard counters to your list? (eliminate them as a priority before they do too much damage... which means fielding things that can apply themselves early, whether it be quick CC squads or long range firepower). for example: playing a land raider means nothing less than S8 can touch it... so eliminate what little S8 there is, and then have free reign on the table, totally fearless.
3) outflank if not for any other reason gets a player to turtle up in the center of the map... the *threat* is far more dangerous than the actual models placed.
4) now turtled, your advance should have less of a difficult time dealing with the units they have.
5) tau in particular are soooo weak in CC... get -anything- into CC with them and they melt.
6) as a Space Wolves player, i always field fast assaulty units to tie up their front lines. verrrry effective. I try for turn 1 charges now that it's a thing again. (doubling up with the effect that outflanking provides)
7) in each turn, try to maximize your odds: eliminating weak spots in their lines for maximum damage, and also presenting targets that are harder to eliminate on your own side, forcing their hand in a way to drop their odds of success.
8) If they have something that'd just wipe things out regardless, bait and bash - throwing a unit at their broadsides, knowing next turn if they chose to shoot this threat, then hit the broadsides with a left hook that'll force them to be tied up in CC or some such (depending on what you bring).
It sounds kind of like you're not using transports of any kind for your marines? If not, adding Rhinos or other transports to keep your guys safe will go a long way - that Tau list he has actually has relatively few anti tank weaponry. A first turn where you move 12" plus turbo into cover will let you engage the tau at 12-24" rather than their preferred 30+"
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
I posted a list on the first page of my updated 1000 list.
Tac Squad with flamer and combi flamer in a rhino (Now a ten man)
Sternguard in droppod (combi-meltas)
tac squad with probably a special weapon, can't decide yet, probably melta or plasma, in a rhino
Rifledread (Two autocannons)
5 man assaulty squad with flamers
ml2 libarian
Devastator squad with 3 missiles and 1 lascannon.
I had a vanguard squad with mixed weapons, but they ended up taking a bunch of fire on the turn they arrived and died. I'll make sure to take a picture of the board after this game. I end up feeling like we play with too much open space, but I dunno.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/06 17:01:52
Nearly 3k+ points of Slaanesh (AoS)
2500 points of Ironjawz
Too many points of Space Marines.
Carnith wrote: I try advocating for better los blocking so that units will have to get close to each other instead of large open swaths of land, but he's not for it
There is a big part of the problem.
There should be a decent mix of area terrain, open area, and line of sight blocking terrain.
The OP's opponent is quite aware that open terrain favors Tau.
Your most effective means of staying in the game is to deny your opponent from being able to fire on you.
LOS blocking terrain or Deepstrike are your main means of surviving the gun line.
Have you picked up the SM supplement?
I think there are a couple pod formations there that can give some options.
Melta seems to be more in favor than how plasma was, I always seemed to blow up my PC guys anyway.
The pod of Sternguard with some combi-flamers can certainly make a mess of Tau.
Librarians are awesome but in low point games suck up way too many points.
You really need the boys before toys at this stage.
Getting in close to Tau usually makes a mess of them, the trick is getting there.
Scouts are a low cost, highly effective counter to Tau as well, sniper rifles may help with high toughness units.
Good Luck.
A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte
its a mix of the two, nothing super tall. And I do have all of the SM supplements but my main problem has been money, the drop pod im using I just bought this weekend. I did plan to order from Warstore soon and buy some vehicles like some more drop pods/razorbacks. I'm not opposed to fielding some thunderfire cannons just I don't own any.
Mostly what I own is a bunch of marines and I'm in the middle of converting up some marines to be sternguard and some heavy weapons guys using some other bits. I do plan to buy some centurions just to have them, but again ~80$ for 3 models is a tall order.
Vehcile wise, I own a vindicator, 2 razorbacks/rhinos, a drop pod, stormraven, 2 stormtalon, 1 interceptor (not built yet)
Nearly 3k+ points of Slaanesh (AoS)
2500 points of Ironjawz
Too many points of Space Marines.
Jancoran wrote: Maelstrom is definitely fun. I dont know why the TC insists on having it in their tournaments since such a random thing is probably not AS good an idea in competitive play but it is at least a more engaging mechanic. Ultimately I like more normal misions for organized play and Maelstrom for casual play.
Do you not understand how the ITC format works?
Uh...I am pretty sure. Yes. Given my standing in the ITC, I'd say there's no problem there.
I actually dont. Here about it alot, but not seen the actual format. What is the short version on it?
ITC is the International Tournament Circuit. It is two parts.
The first part is the Format. There are 6 missions to choose from, and the ITC determines how to score them and when to score the objectives. The format determines what is allowed as well, so it is the usual tournament information, only its standardized.
ITC standard is 1850 points. Lists cannot repeat a Formation more than once is a key rule. 0-1 Superheavy/Gargants, Limited list of Forge World things allowed, and so on. Generally when attending ITC events the missions are a 3d6 roll on a chart and choose two of the three as your objectives for that player turn that you want to accomplish (and obviously that your oponent wishes to stop). They could be killing something, or scoring objective 3 or Being in no mans land etc.,.. The Format also covers what source material is allowed (for example, Death From the Skies is not used in ITC events)
The second part of the ITC is the FAQ. it attempts to tone down the more broken things in the game and answers the many game related questions that GW seemed unwilling to up until recently. The ITC gets these wrong as often as the INAT did BUT when you play by it at least you always know ahead of time (I guess) what is and isn't allowed. The toning down of things like Psyker powers and some commonly abused rules writings have all contributed to (mostly) a successful foray into a universal FAQ, but beleive me when I say the usual controversy swirls around those things.
And so what you have is a ready to use FAQ and Format so that organizers can be lazy, set a date and just show up to run it.
The ITC gives free reign to TO's to alter any piece of it they see fit (though they rarely exercize much of that ability).
The ITC standings are then a recording of every player who has played in an ITC tournament, and their points for the 2016 season (or whatever year it is). Those who dare more, score more. Therefore attending events regularly becomes a great way to not only PLAY but also to be recognized for excellence and for just being a competitor on a bigger level..
The ITC points are determined by the number of players at a tournament. Less players means less points. More players means more competition and correspondingly greater points. It reminds some people of the chess championships or NASCAR.
Anywho, there you have it.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/07/07 04:23:17
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
Jancoran wrote: Maelstrom is definitely fun. I dont know why the TC insists on having it in their tournaments since such a random thing is probably not AS good an idea in competitive play but it is at least a more engaging mechanic. Ultimately I like more normal misions for organized play and Maelstrom for casual play.
Do you not understand how the ITC format works?
Uh...I am pretty sure. Yes. Given my standing in the ITC, I'd say there's no problem there.
I actually dont. Here about it alot, but not seen the actual format. What is the short version on it?
Spoiler:
ITC is the International Tournamnet Circuit. It is two parts.
the first part is the Format, which is the 6 missions to choose from, the way and when points are scored and how many points/ What is allowed is covered. The usual tournament information, only its standardized.
1850, Lists cannot repeat a Formation more than once, 0-1 Superheavy/Gargants, Limited list of Forge World things allowed, and so on. So generally when attending ITC events all of this is standardized and the missions are a 3d6 roll on a chart and choose the two missions for that player turn that you want to accomplish. They could be killing something, or scoring objective 3 or Being in no mans land etc.,.. It also covers what source material is allowed (for example, Death From the Skies is not used in ITC events)
The second part of the ITC is the FAQ. it attempts to tone down the more broken things in the game and answers the many game related questions that GW seemed unwilling to up until recently. The ITC gets these wrong as often as the INAT did BUT when you play by it at least you always know ahead of time (I guess) what is and isn't allowed. The toning down of things like Psyker powers and some commonly abused rules writings have all contributed to (mostly) a successful foray into a universal FAQ, but beleive me when I say the usual controversy swirls around those things.
And so what you have is a ready to use FAQ and Format so that organizers can be lazy, set a date and just show up to run it.
The ITC gives free reign to TO's to alter any piece of it they see fit (though they rarely exercize much of that ability).
The ITC standings are then a recording of every player who has played in an ITC tournament, and their points for the 2016 season (or whatever year it is). Those who dare more, score more. so attending events regularly becomes a great way to not only PLAY but also to be recognized for excellence and for just being a competitior on a bigger level..
The ITC points are determined by the number of players at a tournament. Less players means less points. More players means more competiont and correspondingly greater points. It reminds some people of the chess championships or NASCAR.
Anywho, there you have it
.
Thanks, yeah sounds a bit like Chess for the point rankings. I may have to see if there are any nearby ITC format and give it a try.
The open areas the battles happen are seas and in space. Even an open plain is a rolling plain, and even an open flat can be dug in. One of the first things you learn in the field is how to dig a hasty fighting position, followed by how to dig a foxhole, followed by how to turn a foxhole into a bunker. In you are not at sea or in space, there is no such thing is an open area.
Never ever play on planet bowling ball.
SJ
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
You're opponent should allow more terrain on the board, open fields of fire for a walking marine army is a pretty easy win, especially for an army like the Tau, they don't need any help. As mentioned above, transports are key, the Tau can shoot these down but hopefully by the team they do you're that much closer. Then you're mid to short range bolters and plasmas can do their damage, not to mention your rerolling flamers. Even in you're preferred shooting range don't try to out shoot the Tau, keep moving forward and get in close combat.
Carnith wrote: I try advocating for better los blocking so that units will have to get close to each other instead of large open swaths of land, but he's not for it
There is a big part of the problem.
There should be a decent mix of area terrain, open area, and line of sight blocking terrain.
Does your table look like this:
Or like this:
Never play 40k on planet bowling ball...
Are those two big buildings scratch built? They look great
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/07/07 16:29:46
I've been playing a while, my first model was a lead marine and my first White Dwarf was bound with staples
Part of strategizing is picking where your battles are fought. If it's going to be disadvantageous for you to fight in a wide open space, you should pick another place to fight. In terms of tabletop, that means place down the kind of terrain that will help you out.
4000 pts
4700+ pts
2500 pts Hive Fleet Gungnir
St. Peter don't you call me 'cause I can't go. I owe my soul to GW's store.
Part of strategizing is picking where your battles are fought. If it's going to be disadvantageous for you to fight in a wide open space, you should pick another place to fight. In terms of tabletop, that means place down the kind of terrain that will help you out.
But frequently, you are forced to fight elsewhere. I'm just pointing out that the game should not be unplayable on a sparse board.
Carnith wrote: its a mix of the two, nothing super tall. And I do have all of the SM supplements but my main problem has been money, the drop pod im using I just bought this weekend. I did plan to order from Warstore soon and buy some vehicles like some more drop pods/razorbacks.
On a limited budget 40k can be a challenge just being able to buy what you want for a list I agree.
It is increasingly looking like a "pay to win" game as GW's prices keep ratcheting up.
I increasingly feel that drop pods are the way to go but they are a royal pain to assemble, never-mind paint.
I'm not opposed to fielding some thunderfire cannons just I don't own any.
They are great for the options of what to fire and yes, they can drop pod in too!.
I made a base for the model to sit on (I have the metal one) it was difficult to pin so this seemed to protect it.
Mostly what I own is a bunch of marines and I'm in the middle of converting up some marines to be sternguard and some heavy weapons guys using some other bits.
I do not blame you for converting.
An easy method would be put scopes on the guns and cut 1/4" to 1/2" tubing with the holes capped can replace the magazine to look like they have an extended magazine.
I do plan to buy some centurions just to have them, but again ~80$ for 3 models is a tall order.
Agreed, I only have one squad of them.
BTW I cut the center plate off so it looked like they could actually walk.:
Vehcile wise, I own a vindicator, 2 razorbacks/rhinos, a drop pod, stormraven, 2 stormtalon, 1 interceptor (not built yet).
Nice!
Having multiples is helpful for later on as the points get bigger.
Many of the formations seem to lean hard on drop pods so-far.
Target priority #1 falls on Vindicators and opponents for some strange reason seem to lose their minds if there are more than one.
More terrain I think is important or the balance will tip heavily in Tau's favor.
The advice for melee with Tau is good, they evaporate rather quickly when in in hand to hand.
Good Luck!
A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte
I love the pose on those Centuarians. And yeah, after i finish up these conversion jobs, I'm gunna have a lot of run of the mill marines (I bought some extra assault marine legs to have some marines look like their running in battle), some dangle vet bodies and some vanguard legs, again for the purpose of giving my models some extra flair, along with green stuffing some cloaks and tabards on them. I do plan on getting some more vehicles as I'll probably end up with a few extra drop pods and razor backs (Which is fine for me as I plan to paint them kinda generically so that when I got those raging heroes sisters i can use them as rhinos/immolators)
I'm also gunna be building up some more terrain today as I have a relicos to build and I love the way it looks.
Nearly 3k+ points of Slaanesh (AoS)
2500 points of Ironjawz
Too many points of Space Marines.
Are those two big buildings scratch built? They look great
I don't know. I did a google image search for "Good 40k terrain board" and "Bad 40k terrain board".
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Carnith wrote: I love the pose on those Centuarians. And yeah, after i finish up these conversion jobs, I'm gunna have a lot of run of the mill marines (I bought some extra assault marine legs to have some marines look like their running in battle), some dangle vet bodies and some vanguard legs, again for the purpose of giving my models some extra flair, along with green stuffing some cloaks and tabards on them. I do plan on getting some more vehicles as I'll probably end up with a few extra drop pods and razor backs (Which is fine for me as I plan to paint them kinda generically so that when I got those raging heroes sisters i can use them as rhinos/immolators)
I'm also gunna be building up some more terrain today as I have a relicos to build and I love the way it looks.
Sounds like you are working on the right stuff, then. Stick to your guns on the terrain. There should be LOS blocking terrain mixed in.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/07 19:38:50
Part of strategizing is picking where your battles are fought. If it's going to be disadvantageous for you to fight in a wide open space, you should pick another place to fight. In terms of tabletop, that means place down the kind of terrain that will help you out.
But frequently, you are forced to fight elsewhere. I'm just pointing out that the game should not be unplayable on a sparse board.
Agreed, in part. Battles in open terrain, under a well lit sky with little to no surprise do happen. They just dont usually favor the attacker.
With no access to smoke for intended cover, reliable pinning of enemy targets through indirect or volume of fire, or even starting a battle when you have several hours of darkness to look forward too. The ground to be fought on is the only real option left outside of some house ruling or being blessed with good warlord traits. Hoping for heavy terrain, a few LOS blockers and the like isn't out of the question for a force of marines on foot.
Part of strategizing is picking where your battles are fought. If it's going to be disadvantageous for you to fight in a wide open space, you should pick another place to fight. In terms of tabletop, that means place down the kind of terrain that will help you out.
But frequently, you are forced to fight elsewhere. I'm just pointing out that the game should not be unplayable on a sparse board.
"should is a word embraced by people who live in Bernie-land. Lol.
Look, we don't always get the battlefield we want. Best to plan the army accordingly, rather than grumble about it when the inevitable occurs. Am i right?
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
Part of strategizing is picking where your battles are fought. If it's going to be disadvantageous for you to fight in a wide open space, you should pick another place to fight. In terms of tabletop, that means place down the kind of terrain that will help you out.
But frequently, you are forced to fight elsewhere. I'm just pointing out that the game should not be unplayable on a sparse board.
Martel732 wrote: But frequently, you are forced to fight elsewhere. I'm just pointing out that the game should not be unplayable on a sparse board.
Again, even if a real-world fight happens in "open" terrain there's still usually some degree of cover, low hills, etc. You're never going to see a fight in something as perfectly flat and open as an empty 6x4 table, so why should the rules be intended to function in such an obviously unrealistic scenario? 40k has many issues, the fact that you have to put terrain on the table is not one of them.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Should the rules work on an "open plain"? Yes, and they do.
But fun? Nothing stops you deploying in open ground and footslogging 6" per turn towards a tau gunline, but I can tell you right now what's going to happen.
Having no cover (planet pool table) versus having barely 6" of contiguous line of sight (a Zone Mortalis board) must, almost definitionally, shift the balance of power dramatically between long range shooting armies and close-quarter assault armies.
Since the points value does not vary, you need to come to an agreement about what a 'sensible' amount of terrain is. In previous editions, this was actually spelt out - roughly 1/4 of the board should be terrain, and most of it should be terrain you can hid in or behind, not just slow down your movement.
Look at it this way, if the amount of terrain shouldn't matter, shouldn't the OP's opponent accept playing in dense terrain every so often. If the OP always loses anyway, this is, at best, going to improve his chances of getting a win once in a while, which shouldn't be a bad thing for either player.
Martel732 wrote: But frequently, you are forced to fight elsewhere. I'm just pointing out that the game should not be unplayable on a sparse board.
Again, even if a real-world fight happens in "open" terrain there's still usually some degree of cover, low hills, etc. You're never going to see a fight in something as perfectly flat and open as an empty 6x4 table, so why should the rules be intended to function in such an obviously unrealistic scenario? 40k has many issues, the fact that you have to put terrain on the table is not one of them.
Whilst generally I agree with you, 'never' isn't accurate.
Nice picture. You should google the actual battlefield. It was and still is a rolling plain.
SJ
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
This was vs the list I posted. We had a pretty terrain heavy board and I'll post the picture of that next. It ended up being my victory as we played Maelstrom and I proceeded to grab quite a few objectives early on. Also I rolled Geo on the new astartes powers and got both Phase form and Shifting Worldscape. I ended up placing the librarian with the devastators who then became MVP due to pretty much neutering anythign they touched. They killed most of the stealth suits first turn, with the last suit killing itself on dangerous terrain. When some of his suits came in and threatened the devastator team, they took no wounds and murdered the suits. They also took out a broadside. Most of my other units didn't do a whole lot. The sternguard suicided to kill a broadside, not making their points but freeing up part of the board. The dreadnought killed a few pathfinders. My assault marines also did a lot of work though, they killed the cadre and his firewarrior team as they were left outside while the breachers took the devilfish. They landed right outside and killed all but one and the fireblade, they survived the next round and shot off the rest of that squad giving me warlord.
The game was called after his plasma suits never reached the board and none of his objectives were even close to reachable, while I got a few easy ones like Harness the Warp, capture objectives that I was sitting on already, or just kill something entirely with my squad of point of and delete devastators, so it ended up being 6-1. The vehicles were a much welcomed edition, and they gave my 5 man marine team a little more survivability when the rhino survived a round of shooting on an objective, and only died the following turn, but the guys were fine exiting, still holding that objective.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/09 17:10:59
Nearly 3k+ points of Slaanesh (AoS)
2500 points of Ironjawz
Too many points of Space Marines.
This was vs the list I posted. We had a pretty terrain heavy board and I'll post the picture of that next. It ended up being my victory as we played Maelstrom and I proceeded to grab quite a few objectives early on. Also I rolled Geo on the new astartes powers and got both Phase form and Shifting Worldscape. I ended up placing the librarian with the devastators who then became MVP due to pretty much neutering anythign they touched. They killed most of the stealth suits first turn, with the last suit killing itself on dangerous terrain. When some of his suits came in and threatened the devastator team, they took no wounds and murdered the suits. They also took out a broadside. Most of my other units didn't do a whole lot. The sternguard suicided to kill a broadside, not making their points but freeing up part of the board. The dreadnought killed a few pathfinders. My assault marines also did a lot of work though, they killed the cadre and his firewarrior team as they were left outside while the breachers took the devilfish. They landed right outside and killed all but one and the fireblade, they survived the next round and shot off the rest of that squad giving me warlord.
The game was called after his plasma suits never reached the board and none of his objectives were even close to reachable, while I got a few easy ones like Harness the Warp, capture objectives that I was sitting on already, or just kill something entirely with my squad of point of and delete devastators, so it ended up being 6-1. The vehicles were a much welcomed edition, and they gave my 5 man marine team a little more survivability when the rhino survived a round of shooting on an objective, and only died the following turn, but the guys were fine exiting, still holding that objective.
That board is about an average terrain board where I play and should probably be about what you normally play on for good game balance.
.JPG)
4000 pts
4700+ pts
2500 pts Hive Fleet Gungnir
