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The Eldar psychic power "guide" allows rerolls to failed hit rolls.

As per the FAQ, you cannot use such abilities to reroll 1s on Gets Hot for blasts. The reason is: "Blast weapons don't roll to hit."

You also can't use PE to reroll the scatter dice. Again, blast weapons don't roll to hit.

By the same reasoning, is guide also not an option to reroll the scatter dice?

The Draft FAQ people do not even recognize their own rules. The ability to reroll To Hit allows for reroll of Scatter Dice, but so many people seem to forget that line.

 Charistoph wrote:
The Draft FAQ people do not even recognize their own rules. The ability to reroll To Hit allows for reroll of Scatter Dice, but so many people seem to forget that line.

So does the Gets Hot rule, but the FAQ says otherwise.

And Guide specifically says "failed" to hot rolls. You can't fail a to hit roll when firing a blast weapon.

Yea, Guide and Prescience don't allow for twin-linking of blasts, because twin linked is the way to re-roll scatter dice. Not failed to hit rolls.

So the blasts and rerolls rule is redundant?

 Traditio wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
The Draft FAQ people do not even recognize their own rules. The ability to reroll To Hit allows for reroll of Scatter Dice, but so many people seem to forget that line.

So does the Gets Hot rule, but the FAQ says otherwise.

And Guide specifically says "failed" to hot rolls. You can't fail a to hit roll when firing a blast weapon.

Indeed it does. That doesn't change the fact that the ability to reroll hits is stated as the trigger and no limits noted regarding failure activating the ability, but ignored.

With rare exception, every single ability that allows a reroll To Hit requires a failure of some kind in order to work. If these were not to be considered as part of the group of rules that are an "ability to reroll", it should be explicitly stated as such somewhere.

Nevertheless, so far, though, this is the stance that GW has decided to take. That may change.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
The Draft FAQ people do not even recognize their own rules. The ability to reroll To Hit allows for reroll of Scatter Dice, but so many people seem to forget that line.

So does the Gets Hot rule, but the FAQ says otherwise.

And Guide specifically says "failed" to hot rolls. You can't fail a to hit roll when firing a blast weapon.

Indeed it does. That doesn't change the fact that the ability to reroll hits is stated as the trigger and no limits noted regarding failure activating the ability, but ignored.

With rare exception, every single ability that allows a reroll To Hit requires a failure of some kind in order to work. If these were not to be considered as part of the group of rules that are an "ability to reroll", it should be explicitly stated as such somewhere.

That's what you argued for PE rerolling scatter dice. GW disagreed..

So, given that fact...

What is your assessment for rerolling the scatter dice for guide?

 Traditio wrote:
That's what you argued for PE rerolling scatter dice. GW disagreed..

So, given that fact...

What is your assessment for rerolling the scatter dice for guide?

Why do you think there is any difference?

They did not give any explanation as to why it does not work. Without that, and with the announcement counter to the written word, any reasonable assessment is impossible to predict if you want to go with GW's intention.

All yourself one question, can you "hit" with a scatter roll? The answer is yes. The scatter roll is indeed a to-hit roll, with two sides of the die resulting in a hit. Any other result is not a hit and has thus failed to hit. As such, guide allows you to reroll that result.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
That's what you argued for PE rerolling scatter dice. GW disagreed..

So, given that fact...

What is your assessment for rerolling the scatter dice for guide?

Why do you think there is any difference?

They did not give any explanation as to why it does not work. Without that, and with the announcement counter to the written word, any reasonable assessment is impossible to predict if you want to go with GW's intention.

Except, they did. The explanation was simple: "You don't roll 'to hit" for blast weapons."

 Traditio wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
That's what you argued for PE rerolling scatter dice. GW disagreed..

So, given that fact...

What is your assessment for rerolling the scatter dice for guide?

Why do you think there is any difference?

They did not give any explanation as to why it does not work. Without that, and with the announcement counter to the written word, any reasonable assessment is impossible to predict if you want to go with GW's intention.

Except, they did. The explanation was simple: "You don't roll 'to hit" for blast weapons."

A link would be helpful.

To stay in line with the faq.

You can't roll to hit to trigger the reroll for PE.

As such you also can't reroll a failed to hit roll since blasts don't roll to hit and as such can't fail a roll they do not make as the games rules define a a failed to hit roll with a blast so faq RAW is no rerollsto blasts for guide.

Traditio wrote:Except, they did. The explanation was simple: "You don't roll 'to hit" for blast weapons."

blaktoof wrote:To stay in line with the faq.

You can't roll to hit to trigger the reroll for PE.

As such you also can't reroll a failed to hit roll since blasts don't roll to hit and as such can't fail a roll they do not make as the games rules define a a failed to hit roll with a blast so faq RAW is no rerollsto blasts for guide.

And again, ignoring the rules they have written where the ability to reroll To Hit is all that is needed. Can Preferred Enemy reroll To Hit? The answer is, yes, provisionally. It may be based on another requirement, but the answer is still, yes.

Does Twin-Linked reroll To Hit? The answer is the same: yes, provisionally.

Does BS 6+ reroll To Hit? The answer is the same: yes, provisionally.

Does Guide reroll To Hit? I presume the answer is still the same: yes, provisionally.

Does the Blast and Rerolls say to ignore provisional rerolls To Hit? The answer is no, but the FAQ states otherwise for some odd reason. Half of these answers do not make any logical sense.

Just for the sake of adding in something that hasn't been discussed yet.

Were you playing against me, I'd allow you to reroll, purely because I want to have fun, and not be a swastika wearing rulebook barrister.

It's a game folks, enjoy it and have fun.

So GW have come down against PE re-rolling scatter, fine, they're saying it's not "enough of a re-roll".

But if Guide / Prescience isn't enough to re-roll hits, then the following bonuses aren't worth diddly:

Codex Space Marines, Suppression Force wrote:"... Until the end of the phase, all shooting attacks made with Whirlwind multiple missile launchers by models in this Formation against the nominated can re-roll To Hit and are treated as having an infinite range."

Codex Astra Militarum, Knight Commander Pask wrote:"- When firing a battle cannon, vanquisher battle cannon, demolisher siege cannon or eradicator nova cannon, Pask can re-roll To Hit rolls."

Certainly, someone in the GW Codex-writing department thinks it works, so you can understand our confusion

GW logic about roll to hit.

It only count as a true Re-roll to hit if you are able to roll again the dice no matter the result of it.

PE: condition needed 1 on the result on normal hits
Hp 6+: condition needed 1 on the result then check a secondary table, you *can't re-roll* if a 3 lands and thus you hit even if you want a 6 for special weapon effect (like necron teslas or trying to get precision shots as example)

Guide and prescience: both allow full dice re-roll EVEN if a hit lands as example aboves for Tesla or Sniper rules.

Lord Perversor wrote:
Guide and prescience: both allow full dice re-roll EVEN if a hit lands as example aboves for Tesla or Sniper rules.

Negative, both Guide and Prescience allow re-rolls of "failed" To-Hit rolls. You cannot re-roll sucessful hits with these.

This may indeed turn out to be the difference between Guide / Prescience and the rules I quoted previously, but until GW clarify how the rules I quoted work even though Blasts don't roll "To-Hit", it's just unknown.

{Edit} Re-phrasing myself {/Edit}

 Charistoph wrote:

Traditio wrote:Except, they did. The explanation was simple: "You don't roll 'to hit" for blast weapons."

blaktoof wrote:To stay in line with the faq.

You can't roll to hit to trigger the reroll for PE.

As such you also can't reroll a failed to hit roll since blasts don't roll to hit and as such can't fail a roll they do not make as the games rules define a a failed to hit roll with a blast so faq RAW is no rerollsto blasts for guide.

And again, ignoring the rules they have written where the ability to reroll To Hit is all that is needed. Can Preferred Enemy reroll To Hit? The answer is, yes, provisionally. It may be based on another requirement, but the answer is still, yes.

Does Twin-Linked reroll To Hit? The answer is the same: yes, provisionally.

Does BS 6+ reroll To Hit? The answer is the same: yes, provisionally.

Does Guide reroll To Hit? I presume the answer is still the same: yes, provisionally.

Does the Blast and Rerolls say to ignore provisional rerolls To Hit? The answer is no, but the FAQ states otherwise for some odd reason. Half of these answers do not make any logical sense.

None of the things you listed grant a 're-roll until a certain condition is met. Until that point they do not grant a 're-roll.

The ambiguous wording for refilling scatter led to arguements in the past based on the model having the ability to reroll because they actually had a 're roll, or the model having an ability that under some situation might grant a reroll.

GW picked that the model has to have a reroll granted, not just the ability to have one under some situation.

I think the answer is yes. I never thought pe should work with gets hot rolls because a gets hot roll is not a to hit roll for blast weapons.

blaktoof wrote:
None of the things you listed grant a 're-roll until a certain condition is met. Until that point they do not grant a 're-roll.

The ambiguous wording for refilling scatter led to arguements in the past based on the model having the ability to reroll because they actually had a 're roll, or the model having an ability that under some situation might grant a reroll.

GW picked that the model has to have a reroll granted, not just the ability to have one under some situation.

Hence why I stated that they do provide the ability, provisionally. With Preferred Enemy and BS 6+, it is a provision of 1. Twin-Linked with the provision of a Failed To Hit Roll. The ability exists and is not carte blanche, but it exists. To say that Preferred Enemy does not provide the ability is to ignore what it actually does.

The Blasts and Reroll rule does not say it has to have the reroll granted, just the ability. You are adding words to the rule, as usual.

 Charistoph wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
None of the things you listed grant a 're-roll until a certain condition is met. Until that point they do not grant a 're-roll.

The ambiguous wording for refilling scatter led to arguements in the past based on the model having the ability to reroll because they actually had a 're roll, or the model having an ability that under some situation might grant a reroll.

GW picked that the model has to have a reroll granted, not just the ability to have one under some situation.

Hence why I stated that they do provide the ability, provisionally. With Preferred Enemy and BS 6+, it is a provision of 1. Twin-Linked with the provision of a Failed To Hit Roll. The ability exists and is not carte blanche, but it exists. To say that Preferred Enemy does not provide the ability is to ignore what it actually does.

The Blasts and Reroll rule does not say it has to have the reroll granted, just the ability. You are adding words to the rule, as usual.

And again, GW clearly disagrees with you, as per the FAQs.

Or, as demonstrated by some of the FAQ answers, they don't understand their own rules.

 Charistoph wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
None of the things you listed grant a 're-roll until a certain condition is met. Until that point they do not grant a 're-roll.

The ambiguous wording for refilling scatter led to arguements in the past based on the model having the ability to reroll because they actually had a 're roll, or the model having an ability that under some situation might grant a reroll.

GW picked that the model has to have a reroll granted, not just the ability to have one under some situation.

Hence why I stated that they do provide the ability, provisionally. With Preferred Enemy and BS 6+, it is a provision of 1. Twin-Linked with the provision of a Failed To Hit Roll. The ability exists and is not carte blanche, but it exists. To say that Preferred Enemy does not provide the ability is to ignore what it actually does.

The Blasts and Reroll rule does not say it has to have the reroll granted, just the ability. You are adding words to the rule, as usual.

I'm not adding words, rather you are taking away words. The model with PE clearly does not have the ability to reroll to hit until it meets a certain condition. If a BS 3 model with PE rolled a 3 to hit does it have the ability to reroll? Nope.

The ruling was ambiguously written because it did not explain if ability referred to a having a special roll that could give you the ability to reroll under some circumstances or if it meant actually having the the ability to reroll the dice at the time you are rolling for scatter by the virtue of being allowed a reroll and not having to do something to gain the ability to do so.

It appaears GW has some RAW which is not clear to everyone, but they have their own RAI version which is in effect the RAW, we just didn't know it unequivocally until they posted the faq.

Like thunderwolves, there is no provision in the game to adjust the base stat without being considered a modifier, but apparently thunderwolves can because GW.

blaktoof wrote:
I'm not adding words, rather you are taking away words. The model with PE clearly does not have the ability to reroll to hit until it meets a certain condition. If a BS 3 model with PE rolled a 3 to hit does it have the ability to reroll? Nope.

Preferred Enemy - must be shooting at Preferred Enemy to gain re-roll. Cannot re-roll all misses however.
BS6+ - gains a re-roll only if they roll a 1.
Twin-linked - must fail a To Hit roll.
Guide - must fail a To Hit roll.
Prescience - must fail a To Hit roll.
Ammo Runt - must use a Ammo Runt.

As you can see, every single re-roll of To Hit rolls has a certain condition that must be met.

 Happyjew wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
I'm not adding words, rather you are taking away words. The model with PE clearly does not have the ability to reroll to hit until it meets a certain condition. If a BS 3 model with PE rolled a 3 to hit does it have the ability to reroll? Nope.

Preferred Enemy - must be shooting at Preferred Enemy to gain re-roll. Cannot re-roll all misses however.
BS6+ - gains a re-roll only if they roll a 1.
Twin-linked - must fail a To Hit roll.
Guide - must fail a To Hit roll.
Prescience - must fail a To Hit roll.
Ammo Runt - must use a Ammo Runt.

As you can see, every single re-roll of To Hit rolls has a certain condition that must be met.

Exactly. You may have a special rule or wargear which can grant the ability to reroll to hit if you meet a condition as per the specified special ability or wargear, but until you meet that condition you don't have the ability to reroll. Which is why a BS 3 model with PE does not have the ability to reroll if it rolled a 3 to hit its preferred enemy.

There are a few blanket refills to hit that Sony require you to make a to hit roll,they are just very rare.

Iirc PE still allows refills of wounds under some situations so it's not useless with blast weapons it's just not as good as some people wish it were

blaktoof wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
I'm not adding words, rather you are taking away words. The model with PE clearly does not have the ability to reroll to hit until it meets a certain condition. If a BS 3 model with PE rolled a 3 to hit does it have the ability to reroll? Nope.

Preferred Enemy - must be shooting at Preferred Enemy to gain re-roll. Cannot re-roll all misses however.
BS6+ - gains a re-roll only if they roll a 1.
Twin-linked - must fail a To Hit roll.
Guide - must fail a To Hit roll.
Prescience - must fail a To Hit roll.
Ammo Runt - must use a Ammo Runt.

As you can see, every single re-roll of To Hit rolls has a certain condition that must be met.

Exactly. You may have a special rule or wargear which can grant the ability to reroll to hit if you meet a condition as per the specified special ability or wargear, but until you meet that condition you don't have the ability to reroll. Which is why a BS 3 model with PE does not have the ability to reroll if it rolled a 3 to hit its preferred enemy.

There are a few blanket refills to hit that Sony require you to make a to hit roll,they are just very rare.

Iirc PE still allows refills of wounds under some situations so it's not useless with blast weapons it's just not as good as some people wish it were

The point is, based on the FAQ, the only way to re-roll blasts is via Twin-linked. And that is only because it specifically allows it. Every other re-roll has a condition that must first be met - a condition that is reliant on a To Hit roll (which blasts do not have).

Traditio wrote:And again, GW clearly disagrees with you, as per the FAQs.

I have acknowledged that the Draft FAQ is different several times now. That doesn't mean it matches the rules they have written.

Do you also acknowledge that many of the statements in the Draft FAQ run counter to what is written in the books? Let's take Battle Brothers boarding Transports in Deployment as an example. If they are following the rules they have written, where can we find this?

blaktoof wrote:I'm not adding words, rather you are taking away words. The model with PE clearly does not have the ability to reroll to hit until it meets a certain condition. If a BS 3 model with PE rolled a 3 to hit does it have the ability to reroll? Nope.

What have I taken away? I have acknowledged the fact that these rerolls are conditional (look up "provisionally"). Where does it state that conditional abilities do not apply? That is the part you are adding.

blaktoof wrote:The ruling was ambiguously written because it did not explain if ability referred to a having a special roll that could give you the ability to reroll under some circumstances or if it meant actually having the the ability to reroll the dice at the time you are rolling for scatter by the virtue of being allowed a reroll and not having to do something to gain the ability to do so.

It appaears GW has some RAW which is not clear to everyone, but they have their own RAI version which is in effect the RAW, we just didn't know it unequivocally until they posted the faq.

Like thunderwolves, there is no provision in the game to adjust the base stat without being considered a modifier, but apparently thunderwolves can because GW.

And that is the point I have been making, if you had bothered to pay attention. Their written rules say one thing, and the drunken monkey darters for the FAQ team are saying another.

Oddly enough, it also doesn't help that some of the examples used in other areas, such as Gets Hot, state things like, "If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit (including because of BS6+ or the Twin-linked special rule)...", which recognizes BS 6+ as an ability to reroll its To Hit by the same exact standard that Preferred Enemy works with.

Happyjew wrote:The point is, based on the FAQ, the only way to re-roll blasts is via Twin-linked. And that is only because it specifically allows it. Every other re-roll has a condition that must first be met - a condition that is reliant on a To Hit roll (which blasts do not have).

Not entirely true, but it IS exceedingly rare.

I think some people read th eexample abilities for gets hot as if you have them you can reroll gets hot, and some people read them as examples of ways you might be able to get a reroll to reroll gets hot. However simply having them doesn't give you the reroll,you had to meet the condition.

The rule was not very clear. Both really were valid interpretation s of the RAW to some extent.

Gets hot doesn't qualify that their examples of abilities that give a reroll is specific to gets hot.

 Charistoph wrote:

Happyjew wrote:The point is, based on the FAQ, the only way to re-roll blasts is via Twin-linked. And that is only because it specifically allows it. Every other re-roll has a condition that must first be met - a condition that is reliant on a To Hit roll (which blasts do not have).

Not entirely true, but it IS exceedingly rare.

I'm curious as to what re-roll does not have a condition relying on a To Hit roll.

Even Ammo Runts only allow you to re-roll To Hit rolls (unless it changed). And as I pointed out, Scatter is not a To Hit roll.