Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I think bikes are more or less worth 7 ppm and Jet Bikes should cost more than that. Yet this isn't an option on your poll. Why?

That was an oversight on my part. I'll add it.

Traditio wrote:The same problem arises. If you "appropriately" price one thing but you don't "appropriately" price everything else, then you're making the thing that you've "appropriately" priced, in actual point of fact, OP and undercosted.

Nobody is saying that we should appropriately cost one thing but not appropriately cost another. All that is being said is having a blanket approach of "All Bikes Should Cost 7 Points per Model" is not going to work; you'll have to consider each and every unit that has a bike by default or has the option of taking a bike and cost appropriately.

Traditio wrote:Basically, all that I'm saying is that GW needs to pick an approach and stick with it.

This has no bearing on the topic of points costs for (Jet)Bikes in this thread. It doesn't matter what GW does, and nor does it matter how poorly or otherwise they execute their approach. You are proposing a rule that changes their system, and therefore we should be discussing your methods and your end results, not GW's.

Wolfblade wrote:So, again,. are you going to ignore all the examples that DON'T fit your "bikes cost 7 points" scheme? Like tomb blades? Or Eldar/orks.

It appears that he is of the strict belief that there should be a blanket cost, and the fact that Traditio has ignored such arguments and failed to concede that this is a big flaw in his argument and thus appears not to care.

Wolfblade wrote:Also, comparing chaos to any non trash tier codex is laughable, since their codex is out of date by several years iirc, and the new 7th ed codexes have had price drops on units from their 6th ed codexes. (i.e. why you shouldn't compare a cultist champ to a tac marine or windrider)

It suits his argument and thus he will make as many of those such comparisons as he likes. I don't think he cares about the invalidity of the comparison as long as it supports him.

 Traditio wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I think bikes are more or less worth 7 ppm and Jet Bikes should cost more than that. Yet this isn't an option on your poll. Why?

That was an oversight on my part. I'll add it.

But now you've effectively invalidated your poll because all those who previously voted before this option was available may have changes their vote if they had been given then option. How do you intend to account for this when considering the poll results?

I believe that bikes should be costed on a unit by unit basis based on the benefit that the unit gets from the bike.

What benefit does a Tac marine get from his bike? A Guardian? An Ork boy/Nob? I firmly believe that the greater the benefit the bike provides, the higher the bike should cost

 War Kitten wrote:
I believe that bikes should be costed on a unit by unit basis based on the benefit that the unit gets from the bike.

What benefit does a Tac marine get from his bike? A Guardian? An Ork boy/Nob? I firmly believe that the greater the benefit the bike provides, the higher the bike should cost

Space marine bikes and Windriders aren't much without special or heavy weapons, though.

Martel732 wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:
I believe that bikes should be costed on a unit by unit basis based on the benefit that the unit gets from the bike.

What benefit does a Tac marine get from his bike? A Guardian? An Ork boy/Nob? I firmly believe that the greater the benefit the bike provides, the higher the bike should cost

Space marine bikes and Windriders aren't much without special or heavy weapons, though.

That is correct, which is why I said the bike should be costed based on the benefit the rider gets from it. I'm not going to try to come up with how much their weapons should cost

How much is speed worth and +1T?

I don't know. All I know is that trying to assign one points value to all bikes and maybe another without looking at what benefit a unit gets from it is foolish

Exactly. I still main the bikes aren't nearly as much of an issue as what weapons go on them.

Martel732 wrote:
Exactly. I still main the bikes aren't nearly as much of an issue as what weapons go on them.

Agreed. Imagine if they just had twinlinked boltguns like basic C/SM bikes. No one would be afraid of them, not even slightly.

They were good before, with 1 in 3 heavy weapons and pseudorending. The all-heavy weapons was that broke them.

Some people on here act like I'm crazy about 2nd ed, but the same thing killed 2nd ed. Noise marine troops could all have sonic blasters, which were almost as good as heavy bolters, back when heavy bolters were good. The result was one turn tablings.

So, how much does a Power Weapon on a Vangaurd Vet cost? And how much does it cost on a Vet Sarge?

How much does FnP cost on a Crisis Suit? And how much on a Riptide.

How much does a Scatter Laser cost on a Windrider? How about on a Wraithlord?

Even GW realizes its not always a good idea. There are positive signs there (although the Wraithlord option is backwards...).

On a related note, if Trad gets his way, can i put a Wraithlord on a bike for 7 points?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just to reiterate a few examples:
How many PPM is the JP on an ASM?
How many on a Captain?

How many points is it to get a Powersword almost anywhere? How many points is a Howling Banshee?

And finally, look at it this way:
-SoB are 11 PPM?
-Replace Bolt Gun with Shuriken Cat: 0 or less
-MoN: 2ppm?
-Jetpack: 3ppm?
Same formula to make a Windrider, but i get 16ppm.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(Also, i love how half the posters pick the same option, and you ignore them. But the second someone posts an option that agrees with your premise, voila, you add it.)

I think to further illustrate the fact that GW views points cost differently for different models, we can look at the Guardians vs Warlocks.

Stat lines are identical, yet to upgrade a Warlock to a jetbike is 15ppm. So why does a Guardian only pay 8ppm to become a Windrider? Shouldn't the Warlocks' base cost (which is already high) incorporate all his wargear differences? For some reason, Characters always pay more for bikes than average Joes.

This shows that you can't really assign 1 to 1 points system for every special rule/wargear gained. There is clearly an "availability" tax included. Warlocks should be rarer than Windriders, thus they cost more. I am fairly certain that GW sometimes prices units according to "fluff rarity" rather than "in-game abilities". They even mention in the WK fluff that they are becoming more common as Revenant pilots (who are always twins) die and the living twin chooses to be encased in the WK to be forever linked with the spirit stone of their dead twin.

This may be GW's thinking on Eldar pricing in general: Sure the race is slowly dying, but the wargear is still there and the individuals that are alive are highly skilled. If your army has 100 Scatterlasers and 300 Windriders, then you could only do 1 per 3. However, if 200 of those Windriders die (but the bike is recovered) now you have a 1:1 ratio, meaning the "availability" of Scatterlasers in not so rare compared to how many Windriders you have. Thus Scatter lasers have been made so cheap. Not because it's fair, but because it's "common in the fluff"

I think the reason this is so frustrating is because GW does this incosistantly, picking an choosing which units/armies get rules that relate to fluff.

--

Inquisitorial Acolytes are 5+ save models that can buy power armor for 10 points. That doesn't include the ability to move 12", turbo-boost 36", move over terrain, move in the assault phase, Jink, Relentless, twin-link their weapon or +1 Toughness.

Bikes should cost at LEAST 15ppm.

In the 4th ed Eldar codex, Guardian Jetbikes were 22ppm, WS3/BS3 and could only have 1 Shuricannon per 3 (no Scatter laser option) Then the 6th ed codex changed them to 17ppm and bumped the WS & BS to 4, presumably to sell off the last of the old sculpts because: The new kit was done and ready for release as the 7th ed Codex gave them the option to now take a special weapon on every bike and included Scatter lasers.

I'm sure in 2+ yrs once they have made enough of a profit on the bikes, GW will release an 8th ed Eldar codex with 20pt Windriders that pay 20ppm for Scatter lasers.

--

Dont get me wrong - i wouldnt mind 20ppm Jetbikes.

The approach is off, though.

Bharring wrote:
Dont get me wrong - i wouldnt mind 20ppm Jetbikes.

The approach is off, though.

Agreed. 20pt Jetbikes seem about right, but saying that a 9pt Guardian needs to pay 15ppm for XYZ rules can't be quantified that easily

Bharring wrote:
Dont get me wrong - i wouldnt mind 20ppm Jetbikes.

The approach is off, though.

But 17 ppm is fine. There is nothing wrong with the base Windrider.

Martel732 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Dont get me wrong - i wouldnt mind 20ppm Jetbikes.

The approach is off, though.

But 17 ppm is fine. There is nothing wrong with the base Windrider.

Compared to a 14 point tactical marine though? Come on man.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Dont get me wrong - i wouldnt mind 20ppm Jetbikes.

The approach is off, though.

But 17 ppm is fine. There is nothing wrong with the base Windrider.

Compared to a 14 point tactical marine though? Come on man.

Compared:

-loses ATSKNF
-12" range on base guns
-Survivability of a marine
-loses 1S
-No grenades

=Gains HoW

+Faster
+Assault move
+ gains 1I

Overall, the only useful thing they gain base vs anything that isn't T3 I5 (i.e. dark eldar, hormagaunts) is the bike type, as they don't want to be in combat, where they won't be shooting. The problem is that heavy weapons can be only model, and only cost 10pts. As is, just like a tac marine, no one fears the naked windrider.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Dont get me wrong - i wouldnt mind 20ppm Jetbikes.

The approach is off, though.

But 17 ppm is fine. There is nothing wrong with the base Windrider.

Compared to a 14 point tactical marine though? Come on man.

The issue with Tactical Marines is the dumb "One Special and One Heavy" rule. Let them double up on either and suddenly they're less garbage.

Regarding Wind Riders, make them 18 points and make Lasers 15 points.

Lasers need to be 20. Anything else is an insult to the rest of the game. It's better than an assault cannon. The Eldar prove that every game.

Martel732 wrote:
Lasers need to be 20. Anything else is an insult to the rest of the game. It's better than an assault cannon. The Eldar prove that every game.

Scatter lasers are not better than Assault cannons. They are 10x more spammable, but that does not make them better on a 1 to 1 comparison. Assault cannons have a wider variety of targets thanks to Rending, it is just that the platforms in which you can take Assault cannons is very limited, and often the platforms that can take Assault cannons would rather take other options.

That said, I agree that a Scatter laser on a Windrider should be 20ppm. I would even be ok with 20ppm base Windriders as it is only a 3ppm difference than now, brings them closer to what they once were and doesn't even raise the base cost of a mimimum unit by 10ppm.
I think most players (Eldar and non-Eldar) would be happy with this:

Windrider: 20ppm
may exchange twinlinked shuricats for:
Shuricannon........10ppm
Scatter laser........20ppm

The above configuration would make all 3 types of bike viable, without have a clear auto-take build. In fact, it might even encourage Eldar players to think outside the box and mix options, like a unit with 2 Shuricannons and 1 Scatter laser, or a unit of 3 with only 2 Scatter lasers and a "spare wound model". Either choice is a nice even 100pts

-

"Scatter lasers are not better than Assault cannons"

The 12" range makes a huge difference in what you can hit a SL equipped unit back with vs an assault cannon equipped unit. That's why it's a better weapon. Rending is worthless on the scale of a single weapon. In fact, it's worse than worthless in my experience, as it gives players false hope.

"Shuricannon........10ppm"

13 ppm minimum. It's still S6 spam. Or make them S5.

I think the overall cost of a Windrider with a Shuricannon should have a noticeable difference than one with a Scatter laser. A 5ppm difference is not going to encourage players to take Shuricannons over Scatters, because as you mention "The 12" range makes a huge difference".

30ppm for a Shuricannon bike seems fair compared to a 40ppm Scatter laser bike. Although I'd be on board with Str 5 shuricannons as long as they have 4 shots (and Scats get bumped down to 3 shots) but that's a topic for another thread.

 Galef wrote:
I think the overall cost of a Windrider with a Shuricannon should have a noticeable difference than one with a Scatter laser. A 5ppm difference is not going to encourage players to take Shuricannons over Scatters, because as you mention "The 12" range makes a huge difference".

30ppm for a Shuricannon bike seems fair compared to a 40ppm Scatter laser bike. Although I'd be on board with Str 5 shuricannons as long as they have 4 shots (and Scats get bumped down to 3 shots) but that's a topic for another thread.

I didn't see the base cost increase.

I was thinking 17+13 = 30 and 17+20 = 37.

Yeah, I like the idea of 20ppm WIndriders. It's only a small points bump and makes it easy math, without being the 15ppm increase to a Guardian that has been suggested