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Amusingly enough, the Conservative vote in Scotland has been steadily increasing the last few elections. They've gone from 360,000 under William Hague in 2001 to 434,000 in the last election.

Labour meanwhile, has dropped from 1,017,000 votes to 707,000 in the same time period. Not a good showing.

 r_squared wrote:
Also, the Tories more popular than Labour in Scotland? That hardly seems right. Even with the drubbing they've been taking over the last few years, that seems unlikely.

And yet they have exactly the same number of Scottish MP's... Why is it so hard for you to believe?

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

I still do not believe we will actually withdraw from the EU, I'm expecting some sort of dirty tricks or a political fudge, or the Government will simply spend the next several Parliaments debating, prevaricating and stalling and nothing will ever actually be done. I will believe Brexit when I see it.

As an outsider, I really think Brexit was a horrible idea, but that's your business.

You are an American, yes? Would you be in favour of a political union with Canada and Mexico comparable to the European Union?

You mean like NAFTA, but we call get Monopoly money?

 kronk wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

I still do not believe we will actually withdraw from the EU, I'm expecting some sort of dirty tricks or a political fudge, or the Government will simply spend the next several Parliaments debating, prevaricating and stalling and nothing will ever actually be done. I will believe Brexit when I see it.

As an outsider, I really think Brexit was a horrible idea, but that's your business.

You are an American, yes? Would you be in favour of a political union with Canada and Mexico comparable to the European Union?

You mean like NAFTA, but we call get Monopoly money?

No, NAFTA is not a political union.

I mean a political Union with a shared government.
Do you want Mexican and Canadian politicians and judges to have influence over the laws that your country must enact?
Do you want your country to give up its seat on the WTO and share a seat with Canada and Mexico?
Do you want to scrap border controls with Mexico and give all Mexicans (even criminals, like the Cartels) the legal right to enter the USA, simply because you have the same passports?
Do you want a shared currency with Canada and Mexico, with Canadian and Mexican politicians having a say in deciding monetary policy?

 Ketara wrote:

Labour meanwhile, has dropped from 1,017,000 votes to 707,000 in the same time period. Not a good showing.

That's because the SNP is an actual left wing party, at least in tone, rhetoric and Manifesto, unlike the Labour party. If the rUK had a real and credible left wing party then the Labour vote would evaporate there as well. The humiliating and near complete eradication of Scottish Labour MPs (and coming third behind the Tories in Holyrood) is the perfect illustration of what is in store for Labour if it doesn't become a genuinely progressive party.

JC is a positive step but his lack of magnetism and the continual sabotage of the Labour right (I'm still amazed that there is such a thing) is all but certain to put the Tories in power for yet another 5 years of 'living within our means' while splashing out billions of gak.

It will take a long time before the Tories are anything like a serious threat to the SNP because it would require a sea change in Scottish political thought.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

I mean a political Union with a shared government.
Do you want Mexican and Canadian politicians and judges to have influence over the laws that your country must enact?
Do you want your country to give up its seat on the WTO and share a seat with Canada and Mexico?
Do you want to scrap border controls with Mexico and give all Mexicans (even criminals, like the Cartels) the legal right to enter the USA, simply because you have the same passports?
Do you want a shared currency with Canada and Mexico, with Canadian and Mexican politicians having a say in deciding monetary policy?

Do you want to have influence over the laws enacted in Canada and Mexico?
Do you want to be part of a shared common market with your immediate neighbours?
Do you want freedom of movement?
You could have a shared currency, but only if you really really want one.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

I still do not believe we will actually withdraw from the EU, I'm expecting some sort of dirty tricks or a political fudge, or the Government will simply spend the next several Parliaments debating, prevaricating and stalling and nothing will ever actually be done. I will believe Brexit when I see it.

As an outsider, I really think Brexit was a horrible idea, but that's your business.

You are an American, yes? Would you be in favour of a political union with Canada and Mexico comparable to the European Union?

You mean like NAFTA, but we call get Monopoly money?

No, NAFTA is not a political union.

I mean a political Union with a shared government.
Do you want Mexican and Canadian politicians and judges to have influence over the laws that your country must enact?
Do you want your country to give up its seat on the WTO and share a seat with Canada and Mexico?
Do you want to scrap border controls with Mexico and give all Mexicans (even criminals, like the Cartels) the legal right to enter the USA, simply because you have the same passports?
Do you want a shared currency with Canada and Mexico, with Canadian and Mexican politicians having a say in deciding monetary policy?

What cartels are you worried about entering the UK?

 kronk wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

I still do not believe we will actually withdraw from the EU, I'm expecting some sort of dirty tricks or a political fudge, or the Government will simply spend the next several Parliaments debating, prevaricating and stalling and nothing will ever actually be done. I will believe Brexit when I see it.

As an outsider, I really think Brexit was a horrible idea, but that's your business.

You are an American, yes? Would you be in favour of a political union with Canada and Mexico comparable to the European Union?

You mean like NAFTA, but we call get Monopoly money?

No, NAFTA is not a political union.

I mean a political Union with a shared government.
Do you want Mexican and Canadian politicians and judges to have influence over the laws that your country must enact?
Do you want your country to give up its seat on the WTO and share a seat with Canada and Mexico?
Do you want to scrap border controls with Mexico and give all Mexicans (even criminals, like the Cartels) the legal right to enter the USA, simply because you have the same passports?
Do you want a shared currency with Canada and Mexico, with Canadian and Mexican politicians having a say in deciding monetary policy?

What cartels are you worried about entering the UK?

Answer my question, don't evade it.

Are these things desirable to you?

As for Silent Puffin...as Kronk himself already pointed out, the USA already has a free trade agreement / zone with Canada and Mexico. A political union is not a pre-requisite for free trade.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

A political union is not a pre-requisite for free trade.

Joining the Euro isn't a genuine prerequisite to join the EU yet you saw fit to mention it.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

I still do not believe we will actually withdraw from the EU, I'm expecting some sort of dirty tricks or a political fudge, or the Government will simply spend the next several Parliaments debating, prevaricating and stalling and nothing will ever actually be done. I will believe Brexit when I see it.

As an outsider, I really think Brexit was a horrible idea, but that's your business.

You are an American, yes? Would you be in favour of a political union with Canada and Mexico comparable to the European Union?

You mean like NAFTA, but we call get Monopoly money?

No, NAFTA is not a political union.

I mean a political Union with a shared government.
Do you want Mexican and Canadian politicians and judges to have influence over the laws that your country must enact?
Do you want your country to give up its seat on the WTO and share a seat with Canada and Mexico?
Do you want to scrap border controls with Mexico and give all Mexicans (even criminals, like the Cartels) the legal right to enter the USA, simply because you have the same passports?
Do you want a shared currency with Canada and Mexico, with Canadian and Mexican politicians having a say in deciding monetary policy?

What cartels are you worried about entering the UK?

Answer my question, don't evade it.

We don't need any of that gak, as we get to be the Big Spoon in the great spooning that is NAFTA, so your questions aren't really irrelevant and a poor comparison. I would like more colorful Monopoly money, though.

However, you are but a fork in the drawer that is the European Kitchen, to extend the metaphor. If you really want to go to the back of the line in all things trade related...great?

So is it the German leidenhausen cartel that worries you, or the Spanish Bull Fighter Brigade?

If none of that "gak" (as you put it) is desirable to you, then why the feth do you think its in our interest? Why should America be a free independent country but not Britain?

Um... kronkinator... the EU is nothing like NAFTA.

It's closest analogy may even be the relationship between US State governance, and Mos Eisley *cough*Washington, DC*cough*.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
If none of that "gak" (as you put it) is desirable to you, then why the feth do you think its in our interest? Why should America be a free independent country but not Britain?

I already answered that. Comparison wise have the biggest...car on the block. Not a Vespa.

So, really. Is it the Greeks? It's the Greeks, isn't it?

Edit: although, after this election, we might have to revisit the above to get us out of any whole President KnuckleHead puts us in...

 kronk wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
If none of that "gak" (as you put it) is desirable to you, then why the feth do you think its in our interest? Why should America be a free independent country but not Britain?

I already answered that. Comparison wise have the biggest...car on the block. Not a Vespa.

So, really. Is it the Greeks? It's the Greeks, isn't it?

The EU Parliament in Brussels.

 kronk wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
If none of that "gak" (as you put it) is desirable to you, then why the feth do you think its in our interest? Why should America be a free independent country but not Britain?

I already answered that. Comparison wise have the biggest...car on the block. Not a Vespa.

So, really. Is it the Greeks? It's the Greeks, isn't it?

Edit: although, after this election, we might have to revisit the above to get us out of any whole President KnuckleHead puts us in...

Size is irrelevant, its how you use it that counts...

Seriously though, the relevant size of the USA to the UK really is irrelevant. National Sovereignty and self determination is important for any country, no matter its size.

But if being part of that Union makes you stronger economically, isn't it something to consider?

As I said, it's your business, not mine.

 kronk wrote:
But if being part of that Union makes you stronger economically, isn't it something to consider?

As I said, it's your business, not mine.

Thats an argument for free trade deals and economic zones, not a full blown political Union that will one day become a new State in its own right, thereby diminishing your own country to the status of a province.

Either way, good luck on your upcoming elections.

Your choices are better than ours!

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 r_squared wrote:
Something that is puzzling me, why are some Brexit supporters determined to have article 50 enacted now? I've seen demonstrations of people arguing for it to be enacted immediately, but that seems like the most ridiculously destructive thing, apart from a leave vote of course, that the UK could do.
Are they so afraid that their position is so tenuous, and their argument so flawed, that they feel that they must push us into an irreversible sh1t spiral without the least bit of preparation?
Anyone on the forum here who supports an immediate enactment care to explain their reasoning?

Because until Article 50 is enacted, we haven't actually initiated the legal process of withdrawal. I.e. its not really happening until the button is pressed. Until then, I will remain skeptical that a Prime Minister who opposed Brexit, heading a government that consists mostly of Remain campaigners, and a Parliament which is largely in favour of EU membership...will actually respect the result of the referendum.

It has nothing to do with any self doubt and lack of convictions in our arguments, and everything to do with a healthy distrust of the pro-EU Elite (whether in Britain or across Europe) and their reputation for ignoring inconvenient votes when referenda don't go their way or forcing a second referendum years later.

I still do not believe we will actually withdraw from the EU, I'm expecting some sort of dirty tricks or a political fudge, or the Government will simply spend the next several Parliaments debating, prevaricating and stalling and nothing will ever actually be done. I will believe Brexit when I see it.

Such is my lack of faith and trust in the British political classes.

I agree with you entirely; I think the politicians are desperately trying to find a way out of it. But one thing to bear in mind if they don't honour it, is that it was non-biinding; they don't need to honour it.

 kronk wrote:


As an outsider, I really think Brexit was a horrible idea, but that's your business.

50% of the UK population tend to agree, but the vote was won by a whisker (and probably within a statistical uncertainty).

Despite everything I for one hope that parliament is brave enough to decide against an exit because I don't think it is a good thing for the Country (I never thought a referendum on the issue was a good idea either). Parliament is there to do what is best for the Country (in theory) and if that means not following every whim of the populace so be it.

Was disappointed with both May and Corbyn in PMQ today. May acted like a school yard bully in a posh school in a completely unsubtle way (completely ignoring any questions she didn't want to answer) whereas Corbyn just took it on the chin. That's the problem with Corbyn he doesn't want to get down in the gutter (fair play PMQs show the worst of our leaders in my view in the way it goes) but it doesn't give anything for Labour to get behind. He could have easily turned May's catcalling on being a boss on it's head by saying that his boss are the people that put him charge as part of a democratic process, whereas May's was a trial by stabbing each other in the back which is more akin to a coup and a dictatorship. Alternatively he could have acted like the 'Head Teacher' he sometimes comes across and 'shame her' for trying to that bully in the playground and maybe if she put more energy into answering questions rather than throwing sticks she would get more work achieved.

 kronk wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

I still do not believe we will actually withdraw from the EU, I'm expecting some sort of dirty tricks or a political fudge, or the Government will simply spend the next several Parliaments debating, prevaricating and stalling and nothing will ever actually be done. I will believe Brexit when I see it.

As an outsider, I really think Brexit was a horrible idea, but that's your business.

48.1% of our oters agree with you. Just for context. It's not as if the country is all behind it. It's probably the most divisive issue we'll encounter.

Whirlwind wrote:

 kronk wrote:


As an outsider, I really think Brexit was a horrible idea, but that's your business.

50% of the UK population tend to agree, but the vote was won by a whisker (and probably within a statistical uncertainty).

Despite everything I for one hope that parliament is brave enough to decide against an exit because I don't think it is a good thing for the Country (I never thought a referendum on the issue was a good idea either). Parliament is there to do what is best for the Country (in theory) and if that means not following every whim of the populace so be it.

Was disappointed with both May and Corbyn in PMQ today. May acted like a school yard bully in a posh school in a completely unsubtle way (completely ignoring any questions she didn't want to answer) whereas Corbyn just took it on the chin. That's the problem with Corbyn he doesn't want to get down in the gutter (fair play PMQs show the worst of our leaders in my view in the way it goes) but it doesn't give anything for Labour to get behind. He could have easily turned May's catcalling on being a boss on it's head by saying that his boss are the people that put him charge as part of a democratic process, whereas May's was a trial by stabbing each other in the back which is more akin to a coup and a dictatorship. Alternatively he could have acted like the 'Head Teacher' he sometimes comes across and 'shame her' for trying to that bully in the playground and maybe if she put more energy into answering questions rather than throwing sticks she would get more work achieved.

You mean Corbyn reading a letter from a constituent asking that MP's answer questions that are put to them rather than throwing sticks..
I am more and more of the opinion that JC has nothing in his locker except this groundswell of support. He won't comment on opposition policies because he doesn't have any of his own. Or is so up himself that its beneath him to broach them with anyone.

 Mr. Burning wrote:


You mean Corbyn reading a letter from a constituent asking that MP's answer questions that are put to them rather than throwing sticks..
I am more and more of the opinion that JC has nothing in his locker except this groundswell of support. He won't comment on opposition policies because he doesn't have any of his own. Or is so up himself that its beneath him to broach them with anyone.

It's fine asking questions from constituents but there's not really any pressing of the issue. Nothing to make the Tories sweat under the collar. They just brush it off with a slur, pat themselves on the back for being clever playground bullies and move on and go yar,yar to each other.

And it isn't true that he doesn't have policies but he is much more comfortable speaking at rallies and people there than in parliament. He is passionate about some issues but I get the impression he pretty much loathes the way the institution works and doesn't want anything to do with it. The problem being of course that this when most people see him, not at this rallies etc which the media don't really show apart from a few clips. I'd actually recommend to him that he stops doing PMQs, let him do what he is best at which is rally the grass roots and let others apply the pressure at PMQ, someone that is willing to get in the gutter with the Tories. If(when) they then get in power then they can change the system for the better.

I don't think Corbyn has any intention of being an effective leader or winning an election and forming a Labour government. He's trying to reclaim the Labour party for the traditional Left and purge it of the Blairites. I'm no fan of Corbyn or the Left and I doubt I'll ever vote for a Left Wing Labour party, but good luck to him I say because feth those people.

Now, if only someone could do the same with the Conservative party...

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 r_squared wrote:
Also, the Tories more popular than Labour in Scotland? That hardly seems right. Even with the drubbing they've been taking over the last few years, that seems unlikely.

And yet they have exactly the same number of Scottish MP's... Why is it so hard for you to believe?

Because for generations Scotland has been a Labour heartland, and the Tories were responsible for decimating communities and industry in Scotland. I lived there for a while, and I still have many friends and family north of the border and most of them would rather stick their knackers in a vice than vote Tory.
The SNP have hoovered up Labour, but if they get their act together it's conceivable that they could return to be a significant political force in Scotland. However, I believe the conservatives are only ever likely to have a handful of MPs, at least for the next generation, maybe 2.

I'm not sure there's anybody who could make Labour win an election so if Corbyn just wises up and cleans the party out that is honestly everything one could demand of him under these circumstances. It isn't like the left reclaiming Labour would be an insignificant thing, either.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
National Sovereignty and self determination is important for any country, no matter its size.

So you will be supporting Yes in Indyref 2 then?

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
National Sovereignty and self determination is important for any country, no matter its size.

So you will be supporting Yes in Indyref 2 then?

No. Scotland is not a country. And neither is England for that matter. They are both former countries that willingly chose to unite.

There maybe a Union of States, but England and Scotland are both still individual countries.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countries_of_the_United_Kingdom

Although not sovereign states, England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are referred to as separate countries, which collectively form the sovereign state known as the United Kingdom.

 r_squared wrote:
There maybe a Union of States, but England and Scotland are both still individual countries.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countries_of_the_United_Kingdom

Although not sovereign states, England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are referred to as separate countries, which collectively form the sovereign state known as the United Kingdom.

JC launches his campaign.

I'll reserve judgement on his promises to tackle "five ills".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36852222