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Speaking as a resident of a (former) 'don't bother voting unless you vote labor' district in Scotland (which became a ghost town in 2000~ thanks to what local council members called punitive development in our near neighbour) I'll re-emphasise the political component - Aberdeen has 3 general electoral constituencies, and since Thatchers era until 2015~ it's been solidly red in the industrial sector, and only blue under Thatcher.
'Punitive spending' isn't beneath anyone in our nation's government, and using Scotland as an example pour les autres works well as the height, weight and general fragility of established industry is such that even small changes show results very quickly.
Some people find the idea that other people can be happy offensive, and will prefer causing harm to self improvement.
so , you've seen the BoE has cut interest rates, as things are looking somewhat wobbly economy wise.
The Brexit backing, Diana conspiracy loving, Maddie and weather obsessed Daily Express -- whose staff haven't had a pay rise for 8 years ran the following
Spoiler:
sounds great !
shall we see what the BoE said :
don't know about you but that doesn't sound too similar actually ?
TBF one doesn't expect much from this title , it's been terrible since dirty Desmond too it over.
Last week they finally pulled an article which was a list of 11 things we'd get back if we left the EU
because 4 out of the 11 items they claimed were ..."wrong"
I mean it's an easy mistake to say that you can only buy eggs by weight not number and you can't buy bananas in more than 3s --- assuming you never, ever go into an actual fething shop or something anyway eh ?
and the jobs market is going down the pan as well.
Still ... Blue Passports will be back 111111
TBF, things will change and it is early days.
Thankfully the govt. has swung into action :
this will be , I think, the 3rd cat appointed since Cameron's departure -- it might be two, the employment records are a bit sparse.
So there are jobs out there if you're willing to wear a collar and hunt mice.
and this has still been more effective than Fox's trip to america.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/05 10:00:32
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
The M4 was blocked as well as the trams in Nottingham.
Well, I put it in here since its 'politics', not sure if it deserves its own thread though (maybe not). Are there still major problems of inequality? Living and working in Birmingham I see a wide range of races in a great number of positions from poor to CEO. Is it really that bad?
So.... we have someone in politics called Cromwell. Does said cat get to hunt and behead the Queen? Because the pay-per-view rights to that will get our economy back on track BY ITSELF.
The M4 was blocked as well as the trams in Nottingham.
Well, I put it in here since its 'politics', not sure if it deserves its own thread though (maybe not). Are there still major problems of inequality? Living and working in Birmingham I see a wide range of races in a great number of positions from poor to CEO. Is it really that bad?
There still are problems of inequality in the UK. I don't know how bad, and/or how much it affects black fellow citizens as opposed to other non-white people like my wife.
One thing is the UK police shoot so very few people that the number of black or white or other people they shoot cannot be evaluated statistically. From that angle, Black Lives Matter doesn't have anything to worry about in the UK. However I think they have broadened away from the narrow issue of US police shooting too many black people into a more general civil rights campaign for many minorities.
The M4 was blocked as well as the trams in Nottingham.
Well, I put it in here since its 'politics', not sure if it deserves its own thread though (maybe not). Are there still major problems of inequality? Living and working in Birmingham I see a wide range of races in a great number of positions from poor to CEO. Is it really that bad?
There still are problems of inequality in the UK. I don't know how bad, and/or how much it affects black fellow citizens as opposed to other non-white people like my wife.
One thing is the UK police shoot so very few people that the number of black or white or other people they shoot cannot be evaluated statistically. From that angle, Black Lives Matter doesn't have anything to worry about in the UK. However I think they have broadened away from the narrow issue of US police shooting too many black people into a more general civil rights campaign for many minorities.
I may have to do some research as I am pretty ignorant of black issues within the UK.. I mean, are they any different to issues facing africans, asians, and eastern Europeans? (those groups I have had the most dealings with, professionally and personally.
The argument is that black people are discriminated against in many ways. Which is fair enough. It irritates me that they decide to cause such disruption though, every other minority talking about persecution and inequality manages to do it without shutting down a city centre in rush hour. I know they want their five minutes in the press, but if every group with an axe to grind took that approach, the country wouldn't function.
I'm sure everybody stuck on the motorway, about to miss their flights and therefore their holidays, be late for some business trip, or just trying to get home; are feeling very sympathetic for the BLM cause. What better way to endear yourself and promote your cause than by cheating a family out of the holiday they've spent a year saving for.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/05 16:40:24
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: I'm sure everybody stuck on the motorway, about to miss their flights and therefore their holidays, be late for some business trip, or just trying to get home; are feeling very sympathetic for the BLM cause. What better way to endear yourself and promote your cause than by cheating a family out of the holiday they've spent a year saving for.
If you don't disrupt people's life, they will never even notice the issue in the first place. Hence the point of protest.
Political Protest 101.
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Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: I'm sure everybody stuck on the motorway, about to miss their flights and therefore their holidays, be late for some business trip, or just trying to get home; are feeling very sympathetic for the BLM cause. What better way to endear yourself and promote your cause than by cheating a family out of the holiday they've spent a year saving for.
If you don't disrupt people's life, they will never even notice the issue in the first place. Hence the point of protest.
Political Protest 101.
So? Its not enough to just get people to notice, you need their sympathy and support too. Which you won't get by pissing them off and making them miss their flights.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/05 17:21:47
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: I'm sure everybody stuck on the motorway, about to miss their flights and therefore their holidays, be late for some business trip, or just trying to get home; are feeling very sympathetic for the BLM cause. What better way to endear yourself and promote your cause than by cheating a family out of the holiday they've spent a year saving for.
If you don't disrupt people's life, they will never even notice the issue in the first place. Hence the point of protest.
Political Protest 101.
That's a poor understanding of advertising, and if it were simple, terrorism would be the de facto way of gaining support.
There are many, many ways to gain publicity. Think Fathers 4 Justice climbing the House of Commons. Gay Pride Parade. There are plenty of alternatives that don't involve screwing up the day for tens of thousands of people.
I think it's kinda a word thing for the UK. As far as I know at least. - Not being English. There are really very few black people in the UK that are not in London or Birmingham. Maybe some other places I don't know very well, like Manchester or Liverpool or Newcastle.
For example, in my home town, I knew of literally one family that was black. It was a relatively large extended family but still one family that kind of had a clear Patriarch and so on. - Though it's worth saying the Patriarch situation was a very normal thing in my town in general.
Overall though, in my personal experience the greatest BME presence in the UK has been for most of my life Indian, particularly in Scotland, with my experience of England being more Eastern Europe-ish.
and the jobs market is going down the pan as well.
Still ... Blue Passports will be back 111111
TBF, things will change and it is early days.
Thankfully the govt. has swung into action :
I heard that there was a mistake in the governments press release and that the two cabinet changes were mixed up...
Edit Ooops Sorry mods, external links now in place
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/08/06 15:26:28
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
Labour's Bath branch made significantly more money in 2015 than the entirety of Scottish Labour link
Labour’s branch in Bath earned more money last year than the entire Scottish party.
New figures from the Electoral Commission reveal that the Bath Constituency Labour Party received an income of more than £1.6million in 2015.
In comparison, Scottish Labour pulled in just over £1million – despite Scotland having almost 30 times the number of residents.
Bath and North East Somerset has a population of around 180,000, compared to the more than 5.3million who reside north of the border.
This is why Labour needs to change, If there was a credible left wing alternative to Labour in the rUK then the Labour party as a whole would be as shattered as the Scottish Labour party is.
Silent Puffin? wrote: Labour's Bath branch made significantly more money in 2015 than the entirety of Scottish Labour link
Labour’s branch in Bath earned more money last year than the entire Scottish party.
New figures from the Electoral Commission reveal that the Bath Constituency Labour Party received an income of more than £1.6million in 2015.
In comparison, Scottish Labour pulled in just over £1million – despite Scotland having almost 30 times the number of residents.
Bath and North East Somerset has a population of around 180,000, compared to the more than 5.3million who reside north of the border.
This is why Labour needs to change, If there was a credible left wing alternative to Labour in the rUK then the Labour party as a whole would be as shattered as the Scottish Labour party is.
It's not as simple as this though because reading a bit further we have:-
The majority of the Bath Constituency Labour Party’s income came from property, according to the Electoral Commission figures.
Bath is an expensive area so they probably only need a few properties in the very expensive parts of town (quite possible) and be renting these out to get a significant boost to their income (£4000pcm+ for some properties is quite feasible). In reality you would want to exclude rental/property/estate income to allow a better comparison.
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
It's not as simple as this though because reading a bit further we have:-
Indeed not but only managing to scrape together £1million from an entire country (which would also include property) is pretty dire from what is apparently Her Majesty's Opposition. It's a terrible performance no matter how you look at it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/06 10:31:24
The M4 was blocked as well as the trams in Nottingham.
Well, I put it in here since its 'politics', not sure if it deserves its own thread though (maybe not). Are there still major problems of inequality? Living and working in Birmingham I see a wide range of races in a great number of positions from poor to CEO. Is it really that bad?
There still are problems of inequality in the UK. I don't know how bad, and/or how much it affects black fellow citizens as opposed to other non-white people like my wife.
One thing is the UK police shoot so very few people that the number of black or white or other people they shoot cannot be evaluated statistically. From that angle, Black Lives Matter doesn't have anything to worry about in the UK. However I think they have broadened away from the narrow issue of US police shooting too many black people into a more general civil rights campaign for many minorities.
I may have to do some research as I am pretty ignorant of black issues within the UK.. I mean, are they any different to issues facing africans, asians, and eastern Europeans? (those groups I have had the most dealings with, professionally and personally.
One person who I always enjoy listening to regarding colour inequality is John Barnes. Very interesting to listen to on the subject, especially concerning his specialist subject of football.
As to BLM UK, I find myself torn. The original cause for the movement seems noble and worthy of sympathy, but I've just read an article and two things instantly stand out.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36982748
1) "Dr Tony Sewell, from the Youth Justice Board, told BBC Radio 4's Today programme that in England and Wales 21% of young men under 18 in custody were black - though black people only made up 4% of the general population.
Conversely, he said, 60% of men under 18 in custody were white, when that racial group made up 82% of the population.
"That is a scandal, that's what we should really be looking at," he said."
Statistics don't work as simple as this. Non-whites in the UK do not have the same spread in wealth as whites. Blacks in particular have much lower wealth than whites. According to http://www.poverty.org.uk/06/index.shtml ethnic minorities live in low income households at twice the rate of whites. People who are from low income backgrounds are more likely to be convicted of a crime. So it's almost certain there will be more blacks in prison than whites. I'm not saying that there isn't a degree of inherent racism in the system, we have the same problems as the US with regards the higher conviction rate for non-whites, but it isn't as simple as all that.
2) "The protests come the day after the fifth anniversary of the fatal shooting of Mark Duggan by police in north London, sparking riots which spread to several English cities."
So many legitimate cases you can attach your cause to - Duggan is not one of them. Either they chose the anniversary of Duggan's death on purpose, which raises questions over their credibility, or the date is a coincidence, which raises questions about their competence. You're not going to win converts to your cause through this association.
Statistics don't work as simple as this. Non-whites in the UK do not have the same spread in wealth as whites. Blacks in particular have much lower wealth than whites. According to http://www.poverty.org.uk/06/index.shtml ethnic minorities live in low income households at twice the rate of whites. People who are from low income backgrounds are more likely to be convicted of a crime. So it's almost certain there will be more blacks in prison than whites. I'm not saying that there isn't a degree of inherent racism in the system, we have the same problems as the US with regards the higher conviction rate for non-whites, but it isn't as simple as all that.
The real question then is why more blacks live in low-income households.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
Statistics don't work as simple as this. Non-whites in the UK do not have the same spread in wealth as whites. Blacks in particular have much lower wealth than whites. According to http://www.poverty.org.uk/06/index.shtml ethnic minorities live in low income households at twice the rate of whites. People who are from low income backgrounds are more likely to be convicted of a crime. So it's almost certain there will be more blacks in prison than whites. I'm not saying that there isn't a degree of inherent racism in the system, we have the same problems as the US with regards the higher conviction rate for non-whites, but it isn't as simple as all that.
The real question then is why more blacks live in low-income households.
A non-trivial proportion of them will be 2nd generation repatriates from former British territories some of whom's parents would be considered refugees. The massive majority of those will in turn be in the major population centers, i.e. London, where the wealth gaps are much more stark and even more entrenched. The two together makes inheriting wealth a non-event, which in turn makes personal investment in either education or business an even more dangerous prospect than it is for the already rather tenuous situation we of the lower classes face in this country.
In Scotland the situation is a bit different since we have only just over half of 1% of the population , a mighty 30,000~ people, reporting themselves as of African ethnicity according to the census. It's generally been my admittedly limited experience that they're either 1st generation refugees, foreign students, or established professionals.
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Some people find the idea that other people can be happy offensive, and will prefer causing harm to self improvement.
To be honest I had not thought of the factor of black people being arrested and roughed up or left unattended in gaol and suffering medical problems as a result.
Five new Labour Party members have won a High Court battle over their legal right to vote in the leadership contest between Jeremy Corbyn and Owen Smith.
Good for them. I might not be keen on Corbyn, but I'm actually inclined to agree that the restrictions the NEC placed on voting were in breach of contract/false advertising. Even if there's a small print that says 'the NEC can change the terms of your membership', these people paid their money in expectation of receiving certain rights, and they should get them.
.....Five new Labour Party members have won a High Court battle over their legal right to vote in the leadership contest between Jeremy Corbyn and Owen Smith.
Labour's NEC had ruled that party members who joined after 12 January could not vote in the contest.
The group that brought the legal challenge argued this amounted to a breach of contract, saying they had "paid their dues" for a right to vote.....
I was torn on this. Eager supporters would flock to ensure a vote for Corbyn, distorting the results, but on reflection if they have paid their dues they should be eligible to vote. Labour are happy to have their coin swelling their coffers so they should accept that these supporters want their choice to count too.
Still, the party for the people is in the news for the wrong reasons.
Ninja'd!
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Mr Burning wrote:Labour are happy to have their coin swelling their coffers so they should accept that these supporters want their choice to count too.
Definitely. I think reducing membership to Big Brother style voting was a mistake, and it may well end up trashing the Labour party. But they took the money, they need to deliver on the obligations.
Meanwhile, the anti-semitism inquiry into Labour appears to have been a whitewash. The human rights lawyer Chakrabarti, supposedly neutral, has joined the Labour party immediately after concluding that there's no anti-semitism, and been offered a peerage and a position in Labour. I could post a link, but it's everywhere right now. One of Corbyn's blokes (Mills?) has also broken ranks to say he got an anti-semitic rant in the ear by Corbyn's senior aide Milne, it was in the Times yesterday. He'll no doubt be getting death threats in the mail tomorrow.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/08 10:49:35
Mr Burning wrote:Labour are happy to have their coin swelling their coffers so they should accept that these supporters want their choice to count too.
Definitely. I think reducing membership to Big Brother style voting was a mistake, and it may well end up trashing the Labour party. But they took the money, they need to deliver on the obligations.
Meanwhile, the anti-semitism inquiry into Labour appears to have been a whitewash. The human rights lawyer Chakrabarti, supposedly neutral, has joined the Labour party immediately after concluding that there's no anti-semitism, and been offered a peerage and a position in Labour. I could post a link, but it's everywhere right now. One of Corbyn's blokes (Mills?) has also broken ranks to say he got an anti-semitic rant in the ear by Corbyn's senior aide Milne, it was in the Times yesterday. He'll no doubt be getting death threats in the mail tomorrow.
But how big a problem is anti-semitism in the Labour party?
Personally, I think there are one or two unsavory characters who deserve to be booted out of the Labour party for this, but on the other hand, I think the right-wing press have been milking it for all its worth, and exaggerating a minor, but unwelcome problem, into something it isn't.
And for the record, I believe that antisemitism should be rooted out and treated with the contempt it deserves, in case anybody is thinking I'm trying to let Labour off the hook here.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
But how big a problem is anti-semitism in the Labour party?
That's a very interesting question. Judaism and socialism/the labour movement were very interlinked in many cases around the start of the twentieth century. If you look at the Labour Party under Attlee or Wilson, for example, you'll spot a number of Jewish MP's, like Leo Abse or Lewis Silkin. A number of Jewish politicians broke away in the shift to the SDP, but just as many remained. Ever since the shuffle across to New Labour though, the number of Jewish links within the party has diminished generally, Mandelson was the most prominent one in recent times.
In the meantime, the rise of 'anti-zionism' within the Labour Party has been a very real thing, and I think that regularly crosses over the line into anti-semitism. As I said before:-
Spoiler:
To be honest, 'anti-Zionism' often is the disguised cloak for anti-semitism these days. Not all anti-zionists are anti-semites, but it's not surprising that all the anti-semites are anti-zionists. It's the more politically acceptable way of expressing anti-semitic views for them. The number of times I've read 'All the Jews' should just get out of Israel' or 'Israelis are the new Nazis' or somesuch line briefly followed by 'I'm not anti-semitic, I'm just an anti-zionist/against Israel' is unreal.
I think the proof in the pudding tends to be the fact that for every ten 'Free Palestine/Boycott Israeli products/Cut ties with Israeli Universities/Protest against the Zionist occupier' movements, you see maybe one equivalent protest relating to the horrendous oppression carried out in Zimbabwe, or Saudia Arabia or somewhere just as bad. There are more such movements based against Israel than I've had nice dinners this year. And yet when you question why Israel deserves such special attention in a world full of perfect examples of war, oppression and hunger, you get some vague justifications about being 'anti warmongering Nazi zionists'.
Please note here, that I'm not saying what Israel does in that part of the world is necessarily right and just. I abhor many of the actions taken by the Israeli state. As should any self-respecting person of sound moral judgement (I'm aware that's entirely subjective). But I temper that abhorrence with a sound knowledge of the issues and challenges that the region faces, and the awareness that quite frankly, the Palestinians are just as bad in many respects, and so is a good chunk of the rest of the world. Your average rabid 'Anti-Zionist' protestor seems to lack that.
I suspect it's because the majority of people who drum up/organise these movements tend to be pulling funding from the Middle-East (whose neighbours give a lot of money away each year to cause trouble for Israel) and possessed of something of an inculcated cultural hatred of Israel, or they're descendants of the anti-semitic political tradition (which is also reasonably inculcated). They both have an interest in keeping up the political pressure and keeping tensions against Israel high, and frankly, Israel gives no end of morally questionable actions to publicise and rage against.
The result is that naturally, your average leftie/liberal at University ends up being extremely well-exposed to Israel's individual perfidies and ill-actions specifically over and over to the point where they consider it the very embodiment of evil, with no real contextual knowledge. Those that then go on to join the Lib Dems/Labour party take that attitude with them. Those that become journalists write about it extensively. And so forth. These people then often raise their own children in similar political beliefs/priorities (as indeed, all parents do).
That's how I'd hypothesize the 'Anti-Israel/Zionist' movement is so large (as opposed to say, the anti-Sudanese Goverment movement). The result, naturally though, is a hardline stance towards Israel specifically, which is ultimately predicated upon anti-semitism as much as it is any actions by Israel. But good luck getting any 'Anti-Zionist' to admit that, of any stripe!
I don't think anyone in the Labour party has a 'Burn the Jews' mentality, but I think that many are virulently 'anti-zionist' as a political doctrine, and that often rather sloppily turns into a kind of general weak anti-semitism due to the conflation of 'Jews' and Israel'.
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I agree that Labour's traditional support for the Palestinian cause does encourage this element within the party, but I also believe there has been a coordinated effort in the right-wing press to use this issue to attack Corbyn with.
There is a problem, you'll get no argument from me, but I think the combination of both these factors is making this appear more serious than it actually is.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
I don't think anyone in the Labour party has a 'Burn the Jews' mentality, but I think that many are virulently 'anti-zionist' as a political doctrine, and that often rather sloppily turns into a kind of general weak anti-semitism due to the conflation of 'Jews' and Israel'.
Alternatively the anti zionism of the Labour party is a convenient target for the right wing media who yet again attempt to conflate anit zionism with anti semitism.
I wonder how much low level Torys have been saying anti Islamic things on facebook?
Alternatively the anti zionism of the Labour party is a convenient target for the right wing media who yet again attempt to conflate anit zionism with anti semitism.
I think there's been enough documented cases of the overspill from Livingstone onwards that it would be foolish to deny it exists or try and ascribe it all to media spin. Yes, the media is paying a lot of attention to it right now specifically as a means to attack Corbyn and co, but as he's shared a lot of platforms with people with anti-semitic views over the years, and as a darker side of the Labour party, it's fair political game in my view. In the same way the media focused on Cameron for being a toff, the media always tries to focus on the negative/slightly more unsavoury aspects of politicians backgrounds, and Corbyn doesn't get a free pass on that.
After all, they do it to every other politician, why shouldn't it happen to him? I'm sure Clinton would have liked it if the media hadn't focused on his bedroom, and UKIP would have been happy if the media had passed over every racist nutjob who got revealed. Labour isn't so special that they get to be ignored.
I wonder how much low level Torys have been saying anti Islamic things on facebook?
Probably quite a few.
There's probably quite a few that say anti-semitic things as well. In the Tories case though, I'm inclined to suspect that theirs descends more from the upper class anti-semitic tradition. In the Labour Party's case, it's more from anti-zionist overspill and the influx of people from foreign backgrounds with an anti-semitic root.
It's abhorrent in either case.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/08/08 13:16:20
