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Who else is there? And at the risk of sounding like the neo lib, fascist. media baron$ - am I doing that right? - you can flip that same question, and it has been. If Jeremy is not on speaking terms with members of his cabinet how can he fulfil his duties?
A fair point, if Watson steps down/gets the sack then it'll just be someone like Thornberry or Abbot. I don't see how they can come back from this. Corbyn and his circle seem to be going out of their way to make sure they don't make any new friends and the PLP seem to have run out of ideas of how get rid of him. If Corbyn wins, which seems likely, then what? It'll just be more of the same.
If the Corbyns faction gets his way, purges the PLP and stacks the various committees and other party bodies with their mates then Labour will end up like Podemos in Spain or Syriza in Greece (before they became the government). A shrieking irrelevancy.
Ketara, what will the Lib Dems' raison d'etre be, though?
Farron is claiming a vote for the Lib Dems will see the UK back in Europe. Never going to happen, and besides, BREXIT will probably be a done deal by the next election. What then for the Lib Dems? They're a walking policy vacuum.
As for Scotland, don't underestimate the loathing for the Lib Dems up here. The Carmichael affair, his punitive actions against his constituents, and his lack of remorse, have poisoned a lot of Lib Dem support up here...
Who else is there? And at the risk of sounding like the neo lib, fascist. media baron$ - am I doing that right? - you can flip that same question, and it has been. If Jeremy is not on speaking terms with members of his cabinet how can he fulfil his duties?
A fair point, if Watson steps down/gets the sack then it'll just be someone like Thornberry or Abbot. I don't see how they can come back from this. Corbyn and his circle seem to be going out of their way to make sure they don't make any new friends and the PLP seem to have run out of ideas of how get rid of him. If Corbyn wins, which seems likely, then what? It'll just be more of the same.
If the Corbyns faction gets his way, purges the PLP and stacks the various committees and other party bodies with their mates then Labour will end up like Podemos in Spain or Syriza in Greece (before they became the government). A shrieking irrelevancy.
I think if things continue as they are, we'll see the Labour party split and a new breakaway party formed.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/08/09 18:10:47
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
I think if things continue as they are, we'll see the Labour party split and a new breakaway party formed.
I just don't see it, the shadow of the SDP still looms large. Also FPTP votiing.
The brand name is still strong, despite the recent shambles.
But what's the alternative. As bad as the Tories are, Middle England will never elect Corbyn. Add in the boundary changes, the loss of Scotland, the loss of the NE to UKIP, and Labour are facing another kicking in 2020.
I cannot see where Labour gain a victory from...
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Pistols at Dawn wrote: What exactly is keeping Mr Watson in his position? If he's not even on talking terms with Corbyn, how can he be expected to fulfil his duties?
Nobody in the Labour party are fulfilling their duties right now...
I freely admit to being biased on this, but the SNP should be given the official title of her majesty's opposition. They're the only UK party that seems to know what they're doing and where they're going.
Labour are a shambles, UKIP are a shambles, the Lib Dems are struggling to fill a phone box, and the greens are just as bad...
Absolutely not, they only represent the interests of Scotland, as is their stated purpose. They have absolutely no support, candidate, or mandate outside of Scotland.
"All their ferocity was turned outwards, against enemies of the State, foreigners, traitors, saboteurs, thought-criminals" - Orwell, 1984
The Lib Dems are struggling to fill a phone box, and the greens are just as bad...
That's not really the whole picture though because of our rather antiquated first past the post system. The Lib Dems had a million more votes at the last general election overall but ended up with 48 less seats (8 compared to 56) and the same goes for the Green party whol only got 300k less votes than SNP but ended up with 55 less seats. To put it another way Lib Dems got the same number of seats as the DUP with 2.4m vs 184k votes. In reality we need a proportional representation system to balance this all out. The Tories are going to change boundaries before the next general election but I am in no doubt that these boundaries will be used to make it even more difficult for other smaller parties to make any headway - those in close swing seats will be made as safe as possible etc. At the moment a third of the votes can give one party (Tories) the majority in parliament which no other party can achieve (I do not expect this number to improve after the next boundary 'fix'). We're never going to get round this until we have a fairer proportional representation system.
As for the papers they are happy to sling a bit of mud around when nowhere near an election because most people can't remember yesterdays headlines nevermind from two years ago apart from a couple. However near election times the papers all swing behind the parties the owners wish them to (IIRC one even changed sides from Labour to Tory over the non-dom issue) and there are examples of blatantly misleading headlines which are then retracted after the event. (I posted one from the Sun a few weeks ago). I don't think it's poor investigatory journalism to blame but more what the owners allow them to because of their vested interest; hence embarrassing stories are covered up by one side and exposed by the other (but people only read the paper they are attuned to). As such we don't really have any independent press and that's where people's views can be altered. The exception to some extent is Channel 4 and some of the smaller independents (Private Eye) because they have less vested interested from either side. Unfortunately being more independent doesn't mean they are listened to as they should be.
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
I think if things continue as they are, we'll see the Labour party split and a new breakaway party formed.
I just don't see it, the shadow of the SDP still looms large. Also FPTP votiing.
The brand name is still strong, despite the recent shambles.
But what's the alternative. As bad as the Tories are, Middle England will never elect Corbyn. Add in the boundary changes, the loss of Scotland, the loss of the NE to UKIP, and Labour are facing another kicking in 2020.
I cannot see where Labour gain a victory from...
No clue! It's something I've been thinking about though. Maybe this is the end of Labour as one of the big two parties? But probably not, imo.
Farron is claiming a vote for the Lib Dems will see the UK back in Europe. Never going to happen, and besides, BREXIT will probably be a done deal by the next election. What then for the Lib Dems? They're a walking policy vacuum.
They can still say they want to take the UK back in as soon as possible and it's quite possible that they will pick up a lot of votes this way. There are a lot of people that don't want to leave the EU (lets face it there was only a 700k swing in the vote required) and if they are disgruntled enough then they could swing behind the one party that is actively supporting remaining in the EU (I already know I'll only vote for a party next time that want's to remain in the EU or get back in and I know of others). We also have to remember many EU citizens were 'banned' from voting in the EU even if they had been living here for years but likely be eligible to vote in the next General Election - that's another 3 million people that could fall in behind Lib Dems if they felt strongly enough about the EU.
Also many people that didn't vote Lib Dems did so because they sacrificed their soul and went right wing which Liberal voters definitely didn't want. Of course by not voting they gave the keys to an even more right wing bunch of muppets that Liberals would have liked even less - if these people stream back to Lib Dems to ensure that we don't have another 5 years of right politics then LDs could gain quite a bit of additional traction leading to a hung parliament again (though this time if the Lib Dems had any sense they would not share power and just stick to their principles)
Absolutely not, they only represent the interests of Scotland, as is their stated purpose. They have absolutely no support, candidate, or mandate outside of Scotland.
It would be reasonable though for them to have a greater say in the politics of the whole country. A better system in my mind would be made up all the relevant parties to represent all the people in the Country. So SNP should have some of their members in the cabinet, so should Labour, NI parties and Welsh etc politicians. For example the PM could be from the leading party and the Deputy PM be cycled between an English/Welsh/NI/Scottish MP over the time of the government etc.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/08/09 18:44:07
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:Ketara, what will the Lib Dems' raison d'etre be, though?
Farron is claiming a vote for the Lib Dems will see the UK back in Europe. Never going to happen, and besides, BREXIT will probably be a done deal by the next election. What then for the Lib Dems? They're a walking policy vacuum.
The Lib Dems will be the same thing they've always been. Europe has only ever been a slim part of their manifesto. They champion a continued switch towards environmentally friendly energy generation and construction, human rights, maximum possible funding for the NHS, a balanced budget, more taxation on the financial sector, reduced income tax at the bottom of the bracket, funnelling more money into education and less on defence, support for carers, etcetc.
The Lib Dems have a fairly extensive manifesto. It basically boils down to, 'less taxation for the poor, more for the rich and big business, less money on guns and more on schools and hospitals and the environment'.
Whilst the Lib Dems lost a lot of seats, most of them only require a small shift in voter numbers to shuffle them back over to Lib dem control again, and with all the Europe stuff and people hating the Tories, but feeling unable to vote Labour with all its shennanigans, the tactical vote this election may well turn out to be for Lib Dems. We might well see them gain a hundred seats as quickly as they shed fifty. They still retain a core voter base in the millions, and more importantly, a coherent and organised party framework and funding.
Assuming May doesn't screw up too badly and Labour keeps flailing, I see the Lib Dems doing quite nicely next election.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/08/09 22:46:42
2016/08/10 15:27:39
Subject: Re:UK PoliticThe GMB union has backed Owen Smith to become Labour leader, after balloting its membes
The GMB union has backed Owen Smith to become Labour leader, after balloting its membership.
Mr Smith, who is challenging incumbent Jeremy Corbyn for the job, was endorsed by 60% of union members who took part, while Mr Corbyn received 40% support.
GMB general secretary Tim Roache said he would "proudly campaign" alongside Mr Smith in the contest.
The union is one of the biggest affiliated to the party, with about 641,000 members.
Is this a case of seeing Smith as the more stable candidate or do they think he will be more malleable to the Unions' cause?
The Lib Dems will be the same thing they've always been. Europe has only ever been a slim part of their manifesto. They champion a continued switch towards environmentally friendly energy generation and construction, human rights, maximum possible funding for the NHS, a balanced budget, more taxation on the financial sector, reduced income tax at the bottom of the bracket, funnelling more money into education and less on defence, support for carers, etcetc.
Ketara, are you sure you haven't been reading the Labour manifesto from 6 years ago?
The GMB union has backed Owen Smith to become Labour leader, after balloting its membership.
Mr Smith, who is challenging incumbent Jeremy Corbyn for the job, was endorsed by 60% of union members who took part, while Mr Corbyn received 40% support.
GMB general secretary Tim Roache said he would "proudly campaign" alongside Mr Smith in the contest.
The union is one of the biggest affiliated to the party, with about 641,000 members.
Is this a case of seeing Smith as the more stable candidate or do they think he will be more malleable to the Unions' cause?
Ever since Ed Miliband's one member one vote reforms, the unions have lost their way a bit in the Labour party. This is symbolic, but I think Corbyn's base, many of whom will be GMB members, will carry the day for him...
Farron is claiming a vote for the Lib Dems will see the UK back in Europe. Never going to happen, and besides, BREXIT will probably be a done deal by the next election. What then for the Lib Dems? They're a walking policy vacuum.
They can still say they want to take the UK back in as soon as possible and it's quite possible that they will pick up a lot of votes this way. There are a lot of people that don't want to leave the EU (lets face it there was only a 700k swing in the vote required) and if they are disgruntled enough then they could swing behind the one party that is actively supporting remaining in the EU (I already know I'll only vote for a party next time that want's to remain in the EU or get back in and I know of others). We also have to remember many EU citizens were 'banned' from voting in the EU even if they had been living here for years but likely be eligible to vote in the next General Election - that's another 3 million people that could fall in behind Lib Dems if they felt strongly enough about the EU.
Also many people that didn't vote Lib Dems did so because they sacrificed their soul and went right wing which Liberal voters definitely didn't want. Of course by not voting they gave the keys to an even more right wing bunch of muppets that Liberals would have liked even less - if these people stream back to Lib Dems to ensure that we don't have another 5 years of right politics then LDs could gain quite a bit of additional traction leading to a hung parliament again (though this time if the Lib Dems had any sense they would not share power and just stick to their principles)
Absolutely not, they only represent the interests of Scotland, as is their stated purpose. They have absolutely no support, candidate, or mandate outside of Scotland.
It would be reasonable though for them to have a greater say in the politics of the whole country. A better system in my mind would be made up all the relevant parties to represent all the people in the Country. So SNP should have some of their members in the cabinet, so should Labour, NI parties and Welsh etc politicians. For example the PM could be from the leading party and the Deputy PM be cycled between an English/Welsh/NI/Scottish MP over the time of the government etc.
IMO, any Lib Dem plan to hold another referendum or pull a parliamentary vote to get us back into Europe, is dead in the water.
The country wouldn't stand for it, and many people still see the Lib Dems through the prism of the Coalition...
Pistols at Dawn wrote: What exactly is keeping Mr Watson in his position? If he's not even on talking terms with Corbyn, how can he be expected to fulfil his duties?
Nobody in the Labour party are fulfilling their duties right now...
I freely admit to being biased on this, but the SNP should be given the official title of her majesty's opposition. They're the only UK party that seems to know what they're doing and where they're going.
Labour are a shambles, UKIP are a shambles, the Lib Dems are struggling to fill a phone box, and the greens are just as bad...
Absolutely not, they only represent the interests of Scotland, as is their stated purpose. They have absolutely no support, candidate, or mandate outside of Scotland.
You're spot on with your point, and as an SNP supporter myself, I obviously can't deny that the SNP strategy is to break up Britain...
But it's an easy win for us to say that we're still UK citizens with all the legal rights that go with it, and if you deny our MPs the right to influence or make policy for the whole of the UK, then it's not a United Kingdom and that only helps the cause of Scottish independence...
It's a win win for us...
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/08/10 16:18:01
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Mr. Burning wrote: PMQ's would probably be better with Sturgeon across from May. Make the Tory front bench squirm a bit.
During the Blair years, when Tony was romping to victory, and the Tories best response was Michael Howard or IDS or even William Hague
you can argue that the Tories were in a wretched state, with a terrible run of bad luck.
And then they lucked out. Cameron had Gordon brown, Clegg acted as a human shield, then Cameron had Ed and his tombstone , and now the Tories have got Corbyn and a Labour civil war, with UKIP doing their Basil Fawlty impression
So yeah, it's come full circle, but the pendulum will swing the other way, and the bad luck will return for the Tories...I hope...
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Watson has sent Corbyn proof of Trotskyist infiltration...
What next, Comrade Watson sending in the NKVD squads to root them out?
Tragedy...farce...all of them...I don't know...
Here's chunky mark's take on it. Reds under the bed...
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
The Lib Dems will be the same thing they've always been. Europe has only ever been a slim part of their manifesto. They champion a continued switch towards environmentally friendly energy generation and construction, human rights, maximum possible funding for the NHS, a balanced budget, more taxation on the financial sector, reduced income tax at the bottom of the bracket, funnelling more money into education and less on defence, support for carers, etcetc.
Ketara, are you sure you haven't been reading the Labour manifesto from 6 years ago?
Either that, the Lib Dems did a cut and paste job
It's more that Labour cut and paste the Lib Dem one from the previous twenty years. The Lib Dems have been in the political centre ground for decades. It's why they're literally called the 'Liberal' Democrats, they espouse liberalism in all it's slightly naive glory. It's only recently both the Tories and Labour have started squatting there and trying to edge them out.
IMO, any Lib Dem plan to hold another referendum or pull a parliamentary vote to get us back into Europe, is dead in the water.
I think if they somehow won power before we left, they'd try and stop it, but if it were afterwards, I don't think they'd try and rejoin. There'd be little point by that stage.
r_squared wrote: They have absolutely no support, candidate, or mandate outside of Scotland.
Yet Scotland still has a Tory government....
Either you've missed the fact that Tories throw up candidates in all the Scots constituencies, have a voterbase there measured in the hundreds of thousands, and possess a Scottish MP, unlike the SNP in reverse for the rest of Britain, or you're just trolling. I'll assume you're trying to make a genuine contribution to the discussion and interpret your statement as the former.
Nope, the UK has a Tory Government and Scotland is part of the U.K.
Scotland has a single Tory MP yet we have a Tory government (again). On that basis the SNP could easily form the official opposition as quite clearly you don't need anything like substantial support in all parts of the nations of the UK to be the government, although they obviously don't have the number of seats required. If a snap GE was held its even possible that the SNP would be the official opposition in terms of seats held.
Nationalists see the world in small compartmentalised ways, they like to throw up borders. feth that.
Not in the SNPs case. There are xenophobic nationalists and then there are self determinist nationalists; the SNP is the latter. You won't find the BNP welcoming immigrants......
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/08/10 23:10:07
I'm afraid that while I know there are racist nationalists but not all nationalists are racists, that wasn't my point.
Nationalists, of all flavours, whether racist or not, are focused entirely on a small, closed worldview which consists entirely of viewing the entire world as "us and them". "Us" are people who just happen to be born in an arbitrary geographic location, "them" being everyone else.
Somehow nationalists believe that geography is what defines a people. I think that's bollocks, it was one very small part of a society. A welder in Scarborough is much the same as a welder in Madrid.
"All their ferocity was turned outwards, against enemies of the State, foreigners, traitors, saboteurs, thought-criminals" - Orwell, 1984
Nationalists, of all flavours, whether racist or not, are focused entirely on a small, closed worldview which consists entirely of viewing the entire world as "us and them".
Why is the SNP so keen on the EU? Why is it so welcoming to immigrants? Why is it very keen to appeal to non Scots living in Scotland? Nationalism has a very bad name, with a lot of justification, but it can be a positive political force. The focal point of the SNPs political existence is to regain political power for Scotland from Westminster, not to arbitrarily build metaphorical walls. When Scotland does become independent the walls that may be erected will be due to Engllish nationalism and their Brexit 'victory'.
r_squared wrote: A welder in Scarborough is much the same as a welder in Madrid.
Yes but there are cultural and political differences between the two and when the welder in Scarborough gets to make all the decisions and the guy in Madrid gets routinely ignored then there is a problem.
The reason why the SNP is so successful is that it is far more than a single issue party. As it stands it is the only coherent and credible left wing party in the whole of the UK.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/12 07:17:03
Nationalists, of all flavours, whether racist or not, are focused entirely on a small, closed worldview which consists entirely of viewing the entire world as "us and them".
Why is the SNP so keen on the EU? Why is it so welcoming to immigrants? Why is it very keen to appeal to non Scots living in Scotland? Nationalism has a very bad name, with a lot of justification, but it can be a positive political force. The focal point of the SNPs political existence is to regain political power for Scotland from Westminster, not to arbitrarily build metaphorical walls. When Scotland does become independent the walls that may be erected will be due to Engllish nationalism and their Brexit 'victory'.
r_squared wrote: A welder in Scarborough is much the same as a welder in Madrid.
Yes but there are cultural and political differences between the two and when the welder in Scarborough gets to make all the decisions and the guy in Madrid gets routinely ignored then there is a problem.
The reason why the SNP is so successful is that it is far more than a single issue party. As it stands it is the only coherent and credible left wing party in the whole of the UK.
I am not debating the specifics of the SNP's position on the EU, especially as I myself am a Remainer, however why is Scottish Nationalism good, but English Nationalism bad? In my mind, both are bad, because they create artificial divisions between people that the EU was seeking to break down. And to answer whose "fault" it will be if borders are built, it will be both the rUK and Scotland's. Wales and England for voting for Leave, and Scotland for voting for independence then re-applying to the EU.
However, getting back to my original point of why the SNP could never be the opposition, the referendum provides a solid example. Whilst the SNP did a stirling job in making the remain argument in Scotland, that was where their influence ended. They were unable to influence a single voter outside of Scotland on that one monumental issue, how can they act as opposition on anything else?
In fact the referendum is perhaps the defining issue which proves how disastrous a Nationalist pov is. If the SNP and UKIP did not exist, as in there was no Nationalist feelings in Scotland and England, and the other parties existed solely on their political outlooks, then it is highly likely that the referendum would not have happened at all.
We should have been able to counter the real problems in the UK, centralisation of wealth and influence in the South, the abondonment and decline of the regions, and quasi-unfettered neo-liberalism.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/12 08:03:48
"All their ferocity was turned outwards, against enemies of the State, foreigners, traitors, saboteurs, thought-criminals" - Orwell, 1984
r_squared wrote: If the SNP and UKIP did not exist, as in there was no Nationalist feelings in Scotland and England
The SNP and UKIP are very different animals.
If there were no nationalism there would still be the problem of the differing political ideals of the Scottish and English populations. That is at the heart of the SNPs power. The 'Braveheart' nationalists of the 90's are few and far between these days.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kilkrazy wrote: Perhaps the SNP should put up candidates outside Scotland.
They would probably get a fair bit of support as well, no seats of course but they won't lose their deposit.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/12 08:09:26
Kilkrazy wrote: Perhaps the SNP should put up candidates outside Scotland.
Their choice of name, and political aim, precludes them from doing so, because no matter what, they are defined by Scottish indepence and are unable to act in the interests of the UK, much as the absolutely ridiculous scenario we faced when some UKIP MEP's were representing the UK in the EU.
By their own standards a Welsh advertising executive living in Haywards Heath cannot be represented by a Scottish Nationalist.
Their choice of name, and political aim, precludes them from doing so, because no matter what, they are defined by Scottish indepence and are unable to act in the interests of the UK
They are though, for as long as Scotland is within the UK, the SNP will work to uphold their political vision within the UK as a whole from Westminster as that is the only way of effectively transferring that vision to Scotland. Independence is the end goal but they are quite obviously more than capable of fighting their Westminster battles on Trident, austerity and economic inequality.
r_squared wrote: I'm afraid that while I know there are racist nationalists but not all nationalists are racists, that wasn't my point.
Nationalists, of all flavours, whether racist or not, are focused entirely on a small, closed worldview which consists entirely of viewing the entire world as "us and them". "Us" are people who just happen to be born in an arbitrary geographic location, "them" being everyone else.
Somehow nationalists believe that geography is what defines a people. I think that's bollocks, it was one very small part of a society. A welder in Scarborough is much the same as a welder in Madrid.
I don't deny the unsavoury aspects of nationalism, the wars, the strife, and so on, but people overlook the fact that the SNP are pursuing civic nationalism. They want to remain part of the EU, are pro migrant and refugee, and Scotland was the first part of the UK to introduce same sex marriage.
I'm not accusing you of this, but there are other people, such as David Starkey, who have tried to equate the SNP's civic nationalism with the blood and soil nationalism of Nazi Germany, which is a ridiculous comparison...
And another point, you've declared your pro-EU, pro Remain stance, which is your right, but I find it ironic that the nationalistic tendencies of the EU have been overlooked.
I heard it said numerous times that if you were ant-EU, you were anti Europe, as if Europe and the EU were one and the same, which they are not...
And let's not mention the EU's aggressive expansion to the east, the stifling of democracy, and the sublimation of all states into one super state. That too is nationalism in my book...
r_squared wrote: They have absolutely no support, candidate, or mandate outside of Scotland.
Yet Scotland still has a Tory government....
Nope, the UK has a Tory Government and Scotland is part of the U.K. That's like saying Cornwall has a Tory Government.
Until the day Scotland votes to leave, you are still members of the United Kingdom, and thus are ruled from Westminster.
These are old arguments, but you're overlooking the special nature of the UK - Scotland was a soverign nation in its own right that joined with another sovereign nation to form the UK, we all know that. It's a partnership, not Greater England.
From the top of my head, I can count 3 violations of that act of Union:
1) The poll tax in the 1980s
2) The abolition of the Scottish mint
3) The establishment of a supreme court in London. Scots law is supposed to be a separate body, with the highest authority being the Lord advocate in Edinburgh, not a supreme court in London...
The Cornwall comparison is daft, becuase to the best of my knowledge, Cornwall has never been a sovereign nation, since at least AD 400, when the Romans left
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/12 09:00:42
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Blogs on the network even include those of individual politicians such as Ukip’s only MP, Douglas Carswell, who asks to be paid in a rather unusual manner.
"The quirk about Douglas is that because he is such a fiscally responsible person, he wants payment in gold," Singh says. "Every month instead of sending him a wire transfer, we are sending him a gold nugget."
.. what the feth ?
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
U.K. Prime Minister Theresa May faces a daunting array of demands from European Union nations when the time comes to negotiate Britain’s future relationship with the bloc, an analysis of the region’s 27 other members shows.
The Bloomberg survey, based on responses from ministries, public comments from government officials and interviews with policy makers, reveals European leaders are laying down their own red lines as May’s team weighs what it wants to seek in the Brexit talks.
The result is a complex patchwork of priorities -- from fishing to shipping, an insistence on freedom of movement to the sovereignty of Gibraltar -- that may run counter to what the U.K. wants to achieve. May will still have to seek to satisfy at least some of them if she is to meet her commitment of making a success of Britain’s withdrawal from the EU.
“Clearly there are going to be different issues raised by all the different sides,” said Stephen Booth, co-director of Open Europe, a London-based research group. “The EU is ultimately a compromise of national interests so whatever the U.K. gets in the end will be that.”
Seven weeks since voters in the U.K. chose to quit the EU, Bloomberg News reporters in each of the region’s capitals have compiled the first comprehensive look at the main topics the 27 other governments want to raise in the negotiations. Two years of formal talks won’t begin until May invokes Article 50 of the bloc’s Lisbon Treaty.
Free Movement
Worryingly for May and her Brexit minister, David Davis, several countries including Germany, Portugal and the Czech Republic insist that the U.K. adhere to rules on free movement of labor in return for access to the single market in goods and services. Many who backed Brexit did so in the belief it would mean fewer immigrants.
Just three fellow EU members -- Denmark, Austria and Bulgaria -- cited a shared concern with Britain over immigration, suggesting that May will find sympathy in short supply.
France signaled it is ready to go even further and link freedom of movement to Britain’s ambition of retaining the passporting rights that allow the financial industry to sell services and raise money on the continent.
The U.K. has to accept that this will be a package deal and both freedom of capital and freedom of labor are part of the package, according to Sandro Gozi, Italy’s junior minister for European affairs. “It’s not take it or leave it,” Gozi said.
Another clash may loom over the determination of countries in eastern Europe as well as Greece to ensure the U.K. continues paying into EU coffers to maintain the flow of funds to their region. Pro-Brexit lawmakers campaigned to keep what they said was the equivalent of 350 million pounds ($460 million) per week the U.K. sends to the EU, although they have since walked away from that calculation.
Among the challenges for the U.K. that top the agenda in other capitals are the following:
Belgium is concerned about the potential for populist and separatist sentiment spreading to its restive region of Flanders
The government in Dublin wants to prevent a hard border with Northern Ireland
France and Denmark are concerned with reciprocal access for fishermen to their respective waters
Spain will press to assume joint sovereignty over Gibraltar
Austria wants to stop the U.K. from awarding power subsidies for the Hinkley Point nuclear plant, if it goes ahead
The chief concern among the 27 was ensuring continued protection for their citizens living in the U.K. About 200,000 Spaniards live in the U.K., with some 800,000 Britons resident in Spain, for example. May says she wants “to be able to guarantee the rights of those EU citizens living in the U.K.,” but that will only be possible if the rights of Britons are protected elsewhere.
Security Concerns
Baltic and eastern European states also want reassurances about continued security in the face of Russian aggression.
“It’s not just about trade,” said Booth. “Security, geopolitics are important too and put the niggly trade issues in perspective.”
There are also potential upsides for the U.K. Malta is among those keen to retain preferential access to British universities for its young people, and to specialist hospitals for its sick.
Ireland, which is the most vulnerable to the fallout from Brexit, wants to give Britain as much access to the single market as possible to avoid the imposition of costly tariffs on both sides. Germany, as Europe’s biggest economy, had a trade surplus with the U.K. of 51 billion euros ($56 billion) in 2015.
British Tourists
Estonia warned against taking retaliatory measures toward the U.K. Cyprus and Greece want to limit any economic fallout that would hurt the pound further and discourage the large numbers of British tourists who flock to both countries.
Still, several EU members are looking to profit from Brexit. Italy aims to poach institutions including the European Banking Authority and the European Medicines Agency. Greece is keen to capitalize on Brexit to lure jobs in shipping, while Malta, an English-speaking former British territory, will pitch to be the U.K.’s “gateway” to Europe. Luxembourg wants to attract financial jobs from the City of London.
“After London, we are the first and obvious choice. We have already many British players in our country,” Luxembourg’s Finance Minister Pierre Gramegna told Bloomberg TV. “And we have a lot of political stability and hence a lot of predictability. That’s what investors are looking for.”
Also in doubt is who should lead the talks. While May will prefer to seek a deal with counterparts such as Germany’s Angela Merkel in the hope she can appeal to common interest, Sweden insists that she engage with the European Commission.
“There have been discussions, not least calls from various U.K corners, for separate agreements between the U.K. and different countries,” Swedish EU Minister Ann Linde said. “We want to counteract all such attempts; there shouldn’t be separate agreements but only with the EU as a whole.”
.. still , least we can all pay for new -- but BLUE ! -- passports eh ?
Liam Fox -- fresh from achieving absolutely nothing in the USA & avoiding questions about the charity he helps run, has announced that we'll seek to trade with the EU under WTO rules --- whilst there's some doubt about our membership of that staying as is, I think we're probably alright there.
Spoiler:
It seems that this would put us trading -- with the EU -- with a 10% levy on cars, 12% on clothes and more.
-- disclaimer -- totally going off other people/claims online here so ....
Or he is from the alternate Mirror mirror dimension -- where people are evil..?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/12 16:14:04
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
or 
or even William Hague 
