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I don't doubt that anyone who can get dual citizenship will grab it with open arms, I know I would! That's still a bit different kettle of fish, and for all the 'once in a generation' schpiel, the effects of this won't be felt for another generation at least. If you know people who plan that far ahead in their personal lives to the extent that they're shuffling countries on the chance things might get worse in some vague regard, you mix with a better class of people than me. Most of the ones I know barely know what they're doing this weekend (and that includes the people making the melodramatic 'leave the country comments on my facebook').
However you are making the assumption that the populace as a whole are rational beings. If anything the referendum has shown we definitely are not. You could even point to the fact that the economy argument failed completely to persuade people. As such it would be 'unwise' to not assume that people favouring remain are not going to be just as emotional about the issue (as probably shown by your Facebook posts). However the referebdum has shown that emotional people are just more likely to act and damn the consequences and any rational counterpoint.
And if there's no/little difference with regards to settlement at the end of it all, one would have thought that moving country a vastly overblown response to the whole thing after all.
I think by that point if someone has moved their view will be whether they are happy or not. If they emigrate and love it then even if everything stays the same and we eventually don't leave the EU it would still be seen that they made a positive mood. Not everyone's world runs on how much cash they have, they could find the person of their dreams, or just simply despise the overbearing nationalistic tendendancies of England and want out.
Scotland won't be going independent for at least another decade. There will be absolutely no appetite in the British Government to look at that whilst the Brexit thing is ongoing,
So basically saying that the Leave campaign on the basis that it didn't want to be ruled by an 'undemocratic' EU whilst saying that Scotland should be run by a government not elected by the Scottish people. That seems a bit hypocritical.
and now that oil has tanked, the ardour of many past voters for independence has waned. Oil was always the leg upon which maintaining current living standards independently relied. Even if oil production in the Middle-East suddenly dives, Iran and Russia could re-enter the market at any time, fracking has been making progress, and large deposits have been found in a few new locations. Odds are it won't pick up again.
Again the assumption that the economics played a big decision in people's voting methods, something that didn't pan out in the EU referendum. And I thought snp are still trying to gauge what the appetite is for another referendum on independence so I can't see how we can say there is less appetite especially given the obvious disparity in views between the two countries. People move for more than just financial reasons.
You can get by in European countries, but you get the same in many non-European countries as well. There's more to a language barrier than making yourself understood abroad.
On that basis no one would emigrate ever! I also fail to see what this barrier maybe; or whether it is just an English suspicion. I know several people from different countries in the uk that don't have any language barrier issues and know several people that have gone abroad that have no language barrier issues as to where they have gone. As with most things in life the thing that holds us back the most is fear of the Unknown. It's our own prejudices that are the barrier rather than language or custom etc barriers. It's just like a new job, it takes 18 months to really start to settle in and banish those uncertainties.
I'll be blunt, if the level of statistical proof given in this poll is to be taken as a genuine population wide inclination, I could produce reports with equivalent numbers of people that can prove just about anything. Vastly more people were polled for the general election, and yet the result was nowhere near what was expected. For something vague as 'Have you thought about moving abroad', crikey, I've done that and I voted Brexit!
Yes but by choosing the sample it's biased. You are making the assumption that the sample is biased and not well worded which is polluting your view on the outcome of the poll. The simple case is that don't know how the poll was taken and exactly what questions were asked, for example the question could have been whether people have considered leaving the country on the basis of the referendum result. We simply don't know. However even a relatively small poll can be accurate if undertaken well, but there are always errors on the data. The GE polls shows just how important it is to understand the errors on your data. We never see the errors and I don't think for the majority of people they actually understand what they mean, but the errors always give you a better picture than the 'mean' result ever will because the mean result is highly unlikely to be the 'true' result. For example the GE polls would have been correct within the error of the dataset. And this is the key point a result/poll means nothing without the errors.
However you are making the assumption that the poll is bad and is simply bad scientific method. You neither want to assume the poll is bad or good. Rather you should interpret the results and thief implications as they are and draw possible testable theories which you can then gather more data on to test the theory, then rinse and repeat. By making an assumption about the poll either way, bad or good, you are immediately biased and even sub-consciously you will want to prove you are right in your view. That leads to biased samples; which is why clinical trials are double blind, in that both the treated patient and clinical scientist doesn't know who's being treated and who isn't.
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
However you are making the assumption that the populace as a whole are rational beings...the referebdum has shown that emotional people are just more likely to act and damn the consequences and any rational counterpoint. .
They usually are, within reason. It's why we don't all become table dancers and move to New York on a drunk whim one night after a kebab in Manchester. Not to mention the fact that moving country is infinitely more major a decision than ticking a box on a bit of paper regarding a political issue that a third of people didn't even bother to show up to vote on.
So basically saying that the Leave campaign on the basis that it didn't want to be ruled by an 'undemocratic' EU whilst saying that Scotland should be run by a government not elected by the Scottish people. That seems a bit hypocritical.
Of who? Me? I don't run the Government.
Not to mention the fact that there's only so many resources and hours in the day to go around, as well as the political stability of the country to consider (it's not fair on the rest of the electorate to hold referendums on a single subject every two years). I don't think saying, 'not for the following decade' is particularly oppressive when you just had a vote on it. Your mileage, of course, may vary.
Again the assumption that the economics played a big decision in people's voting methods, something that didn't pan out in the EU referendum.
And? Two different referendums, two different issues. I could take a referendum on what dog food my pet should eat tonight, but the economic benefits of that aren't necessarily a motivational factor in the voting, and even if they are, how much so compared to the EU one is debatable. I'm stretching the point slightly for illustration, but it should be pretty clear that two referendums can be miles apart on people's voting motivations, and trying to apply people's reasoning for one vote to another based purely on the reasoning that some extended definition of 'independence' is involved in both, is a bit of a stretch.
I personally (from the media and interviews I saw held), saw the living standards thing tossed around a lot in that referendum. Perhaps my empirical experience is wrong, but without you proffering statistical proof to the contrary (I can't say I care enough to investigate right now), this is something of a dead end.
On that basis no one would emigrate ever! I also fail to see what this barrier maybe; or whether it is just an English suspicion....
No...? It's just, as I already said, moving away from friends, family, job, language, family places, and so forth is a pretty big shift, and people don't usually do it unless there's an overriding political or economic incentive. I don't think us leaving the EU was it, any moreso than I did when the Tories won the last election and people said the same thing. You are, of course, free to believe them, time will tell...
Yes but by choosing the sample it's biased. You are making the assumption that the sample is biased and not well worded which is polluting your view on the outcome of the poll......However you are making the assumption that the poll is bad and is simply bad scientific method....
Hardly. I'm just pointing out that a single poll of a thousand odd people, where the question given is 'Have you thought about moving abroad since the EU referendum' or a variation thereof, isn't really proof of anything. I never cast aspersions in the direction of who they spoke to, question phrasing, or any of the other stuff you're talking about. Primarily because I don't need to.
I mean, seriously, a poll of a thousand unspecified people? I genuinely don't view that as even being sufficient evidence to lend weight to anything for the most part. Not to mention that this is a recurring news story, like the Daily Mail asking what causes cancer this week. Here's a 2006 poll of the same number of people with roughly the same result (which references another 2003 poll which also got the same result).
Yet a decade on, I haven't noticed the economy tanking for a lack of young people around. Here's a Yougov poll of 1,500 people from 2012 where they conclude the same thing, just to highlight how often this question is run and gets the same result.
Seriously, this is a non-story. All it shows is that people like to think about moving abroad, because we're all grouchy as feth and grass is always greener on the other side. But when it actually comes down to it, we tend to stay where we are. If you look at the emigration figures, they've stayed relatively static at between 250,000-300,000 per year since the 90's (excluding a temporary slight increase after the financial crash). They've actually been falling the last several years, despite all those polls indicated above.
Now us leaving the EU may well change that, and emigration may well pick up. But my point is that this poll specifically is not proof of anything, and most likely will not prove to be any more accurate than the umpteen dozen taken before it on the issue over the last decade and a half, all of which showed exactly the same result as it, but with no discernible impact in terms of actual emigration figures. If it is right, it'll be by chance as opposed to accurate diagnosis.
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Ketara wrote: You've just pointed out (even if you didn't mean it) why moving abroad to Europe right now would be worse: the uncertainty. Just because you move now doesn't mean you'll have the right to reside in five years times. Depending on negotiations, you might be sent home in four years. For people concerned with their long term future, that would be a remarkable concern, one would think.
You think other countries are in a hurry to kick off tax paying folk?-) Especially in 1st world countries who generally have the same problem of aging population with not enough births from natives to sustain since western economy demands unlimited growth in everything(which of course is impossible in long term which is why western economy system is going to go bust eventually).
The ones who might be sent home would be those without work. But as long as you have work you don't have much to worry. UK might decide to kick tax payers off but that doesn't mean other countries are as interested in burning money.
I don't doubt that anyone who can get dual citizenship will grab it with open arms, I know I would! That's still a bit different kettle of fish, and for all the 'once in a generation' schpiel, the effects of this won't be felt for another generation at least. If you know people who plan that far ahead in their personal lives to the extent that they're shuffling countries on the chance things might get worse in some vague regard, you mix with a better class of people than me. Most of the ones I know barely know what they're doing this weekend (and that includes the people making the melodramatic 'leave the country comments on my facebook').
The effects of this are going to be felt almost as soon as the trigger is pulled, when companies start deciding what they are going to do. Plus it's going to be almost impossible to undo.
There are also plenty of university graduates that are struggling to find work here, that will be welcomed into jobs in Europe, where they will be stable whilst employed at least. I can't imagine any country will kick them out post-Brexit unless the UK does something really offensive. Why would they kick out a productive worker that contributes? Most countries understand that we need migration to top up the workforce.
Whilst plenty of people have no idea what they want, plenty of others have plans, we're not just talking about 18-year old school leavers here, but people all the way up to 32, who will probably be either fairly stable or fairly discontented. Some of them with a decade of industry experience (like me) with families (like me) who would quite happily move over to Europe to ensure future stability for my family (like me), and to get away from this dangerous nationalism (like me).
Having visited Europe for work, whilst there is some language barrier it's not significant; but then I already speak enough German to scrape by in shops, most people speak decent enough English and are happy to help you when you try. I'd have no qualms about moving to Germany with my family, if a suitable position opened up, and since I have 10 years industry experience, that shouldn't be difficult to do.
I'm in Scotland though, so I'm waiting to see what's going to happen with Indyref2 before deciding; my kid is only a toddler now so I've got plenty of time to worry about schools.
Then there's people who have jobs that are going to offshore. Say Brexit doesn't go the way the Japanese want and they move their UK sites over to the EU over the next few years, how many of their staff will move with them? I imagine those close to retirement will likely stay, but the younger workers with careers and opportunities ahead of them, or with no ties, they'll all be considering moving. If there's no other work locally, it's possibly the best option they'll get. I really don't think you can write off this migration sentiment as either bad statistics, or something that happens anyway. It's definintely become more noticeable since Brexit and it's a really, really bad thing for us.
Unfortunately, it'll probably result in our harder working and open-minded workforce migrating, leaving us with the more workshy bigoted workforce. That's going to make things even worse when we have to start importing staff from wherever we can get them.
Not to mention the fact that there's only so many resources and hours in the day to go around, as well as the political stability of the country to consider (it's not fair on the rest of the electorate to hold referendums on a single subject every two years). I don't think saying, 'not for the following decade' is particularly oppressive when you just had a vote on it. Your mileage, of course, may vary.
When the political landscape has changed so drastically, waiting a decade could be catastrophic. That'd mean we couldn't have a referendum on leaving the UK until long after Brexit was done. If England makes a mess of it, it gives us an almost impossible job of unrolling the unroll, by re-joining the EU. Whereas if we do it in the next year, there's a possibility we can stay in the EU and can avoid a whole lot of upheaval.
No...? It's just, as I already said, moving away from friends, family, job, language, family places, and so forth is a pretty big shift, and people don't usually do it unless there's an overriding political or economic incentive. I don't think us leaving the EU was it, any moreso than I did when the Tories won the last election and people said the same thing. You are, of course, free to believe them, time will tell...
You are making a lot of assumptions, primarily that people have a job in the first place. Sure, moving out of the UK when you already have a stable job and family life is a risky idea, if you're a graduate without a job, or your employer has just closed, then you've got no job reason to say.
Then with technology and cheap flights, visiting family from across Europe isn't that difficult, even assuming people want to visit family.
I really don't think you can compare peoples migration views on another Tory government and leaving the EU; one is a short term thing that is largely business as usual for everyone, the other is a country defining shift that could make or break, well, everything. I never considered moving because the Tories were in again. I have considered moving to stay in Europe.
I'm not commenting on the accuracy of the survey as I don't know anything about it, and it seems the headline figure is pretty standard, depending on how the question was asked. It'd be interesting to know more about the percentage of people seriously considering moving or planning to move in the near future, rather than just having considered moving.
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The effects of this are going to be felt almost as soon as the trigger is pulled, when companies start deciding what they are going to do. Plus it's going to be almost impossible to undo.
There are also plenty of university graduates that are struggling to find work here, that will be welcomed into jobs in Europe, where they will be stable whilst employed at least. I can't imagine any country will kick them out post-Brexit unless the UK does something really offensive. Why would they kick out a productive worker that contributes? Most countries understand that we need migration to top up the workforce.
At the moment, unemployment is the lowest it's been in ages. The result being that the graduates 'struggling to find work' will tend to be the ones with worst qualifications, which coincidentally, will make them the least attractive for employment abroad. There's also the fact that being unemployed means they're least likely to have the appropriate resources for relocation. Travel tickets and finding somewhere to live abroad whilst searching for a job are not free. There will always be a few who are willing to try and couch surf with foreign friends made at uni whilst trying to get in somewhere, but a good proportion of those are only out because they want to travel whilst young, as opposed to looking for permanent relocation. You usually only plunge yourself into that sort of economic uncertainty if forced to by extreme economic or political condition, or if you only intend it for a limited period of time.
,..and to get away from this dangerous nationalism (like me)... I'm in Scotland though, so I'm waiting to see what's going to happen with Indyref2 before deciding; my kid is only a toddler now so I've got plenty of time to worry about schools.
You're living in Scotland, and you're worried about nationalism?
Then there's people who have jobs that are going to offshore. Say Brexit doesn't go the way the Japanese want and they move their UK sites over to the EU over the next few years, how many of their staff will move with them? I imagine those close to retirement will likely stay, but the younger workers with careers and opportunities ahead of them, or with no ties, they'll all be considering moving. If there's no other work locally, it's possibly the best option they'll get. I really don't think you can write off this migration sentiment as either bad statistics, or something that happens anyway. It's definintely become more noticeable since Brexit and it's a really, really bad thing for us.
Sure, if the economy crashes, more people will move abroad. But that happens regardless of EU membership, it happened after the last crash in 2007. You talk about 'migration sentiment', but where is the proof it exists coming from? I mean, you say later in your message that you're not using this poll, but in that case, what are you using? I've sucessfully demonstrated that this particular poll question has been recurring with the same result for the last decade and a half, so what makes you think that there's more migration sentiment than before? (other than people on fb, which like I said, said the same thing after Cameron got re-elected).
When the political landscape has changed so drastically, waiting a decade could be catastrophic. That'd mean we couldn't have a referendum on leaving the UK until long after Brexit was done. If England makes a mess of it, it gives us an almost impossible job of unrolling the unroll, by re-joining the EU. Whereas if we do it in the next year, there's a possibility we can stay in the EU and can avoid a whole lot of upheaval.
It's not happening. Sturgeon doesn't want it, because she doesn't think she can win (but she'll pretend she does so she can play up the nationalist sentiment), and May has other fish to fry. It's not happening. Sorry.
You are making a lot of assumptions, primarily that people have a job in the first place. Sure, moving out of the UK when you already have a stable job and family life is a risky idea, if you're a graduate without a job, or your employer has just closed, then you've got no job reason to say.
Then with technology and cheap flights, visiting family from across Europe isn't that difficult, even assuming people want to visit family.
Unemployment being as low as it is right now, I know of only three people who've moved abroad personally, and two of them came back. The other stayed abroad for the same reason she moved (a boyfriend), and is in Ireland (which barely qualifies). Purely anecdotal, I'm aware, but there aren't too many unemployed orphans with no friends yet sufficient resources and adventurous personality types out to seek their fortune. And I don't think the EU referendum will have made more of them, they'd already have been leaving the country by the sound of things regardless.
You think other countries are in a hurry to kick off tax paying folk?-) Especially in 1st world countries who generally have the same problem of aging population with not enough births from natives to sustain since western economy demands unlimited growth in everything(which of course is impossible in long term which is why western economy system is going to go bust eventually).
The ones who might be sent home would be those without work. But as long as you have work you don't have much to worry. UK might decide to kick tax payers off but that doesn't mean other countries are as interested in burning money.
Right now, right of residence is a football in negotiations for all countries involved. Who knows where it will get kicked?
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The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
At the moment, unemployment is the lowest it's been in ages.
Does that mean meaningful employment is actually up? I mean, 0-hours contracts count as employment, but may not actually result in any work. Ditto with part time, people may not be unemployed but they may still be seeking minimal work.
The result being that the graduates 'struggling to find work' will tend to be the ones with worst qualifications, which coincidentally, will make them the least attractive for employment abroad. There's also the fact that being unemployed means they're least likely to have the appropriate resources for relocation.
There's plenty of good graduates that just happen to live nowhere near where that industry is hiring. It's not that much harder moving to Berlin for work, than, say, Aberdeen. Companies may even help recruits with accomodation costs. Plus, like I said, we're not only talking about skint uni/school leavers here with no experience or resources, the age bracket allows for about 10-14 years experience.
You're living in Scotland, and you're worried about nationalism?
Yup. We like foreigners and the EU up here. In fact, we know we need them to get by. The fact I want an independent Scotland doesn't mean I'm a nationalist, it just means I don't want the Tories trying to ruin my economy.
Sure, if the economy crashes, more people will move abroad. But that happens regardless of EU membership, it happened after the last crash in 2007.
And lots of people are expecting a crash. Companies have frozen UK hires or are considering relocating.
It's undoubtedly easier to move abroad for work now than at any other point in history, and potentially the UK workforce are going to see a huge incentive to do so.
You talk about 'migration sentiment', but where is the proof it exists coming from? I mean, you say later in your message that you're not using this poll, but in that case, what are you using? I've sucessfully demonstrated that this particular poll question has been recurring with the same result for the last decade and a half, so what makes you think that there's more migration sentiment than before? (other than people on fb, which like I said, said the same thing after Cameron got re-elected).
The sentiment is largely what I've heard, and I'm not disputing that similar polls have produced similar results, but I don't know the full details of this one to compare. Have dual citizenship requests increased inline with the Cameron re-election, for instance?
It's not happening. Sturgeon doesn't want it, because she doesn't think she can win (but she'll pretend she does so she can play up the nationalist sentiment), and May has other fish to fry. It's not happening. Sorry.
We'll see, I've no idea how it's going to go. I'm not particularly screwed anyway, I've got a job that should be safe, I own a house, and I've got contacts to move away if things go badly enough wrong. I'm still largely hoping someone finds a way to unroll all this nonsense, in which case I'll be happy in a complete UK in the EU.
Unemployment being as low as it is right now, I know of only three people who've moved abroad personally, and two of them came back. The other stayed abroad for the same reason she moved (a boyfriend), and is in Ireland (which barely qualifies). Purely anecdotal, I'm aware, but there aren't too many unemployed orphans with no friends yet sufficient resources and adventurous personality types out to seek their fortune. And I don't think the EU referendum will have made more of them, they'd already have been leaving the country by the sound of things regardless.
And I know one who moved abroad years ago and has settled down, another that's had to come back to finish a degree and is planning on moving away again for work. As you said, purely anecdotal.
Right now, right of residence is a football in negotiations for all countries involved. Who knows where it will get kicked?
Indeed. But very few countries are big on cutting their nose of to spite their face, UK excluded. These other countries will benefit from UK workers and need migrants in general, so why would they want to kick them out?
I can see countries agreeing to free movement UK->EU but not EU->UK, rather than having no free movement at all. But since the control would be on the receiving side, they can still make it trivial to poach our skilled employees.
Corbyn says he has changed the whole political atmosphere, gets 40k emails pre-PMQs. Adds: "This genie is not getting back in any bottle".
wait.. is he working on the FAQs they're releasing each week ?
Bet he plays Tau .
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
Corbyn says he has changed the whole political atmosphere, gets 40k emails pre-PMQs. Adds: "This genie is not getting back in any bottle".
wait.. is he working on the FAQs they're releasing each week ?
Bet he plays Tau .
But at least he played Tau all the way through the dark days of 5th ed. The CLP just jump onto whatever army is doing best at the time. They say they are Tau players now but if Smith wins I bet they'll just drop them to pick up Eldar scatbike spam.
Alternatively, I wonder how many of those emails are asking him if he wants, and I quote from one which recently populated my spam folder, "Big Penis Like a Girl"
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/09/06 12:41:58
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
"Now here's what would be happening if I was still Mayor of London instead of this Sadiq upstart...."
Herzlos wrote:
Does that mean meaningful employment is actually up? I mean, 0-hours contracts count as employment, but may not actually result in any work. Ditto with part time, people may not be unemployed but they may still be seeking minimal work.
Yes. In a word. It should also be noted that being on a zero hours contract is not always a bad thing. ONS research showed them to be vastly focused in mobile seasonal industries, like tourism, food, and hospitality, the average work week for a zero hours contract was 25 hours, and of the 1.4 million people on them, only 14% were actively looking for more work.
Zero hours contracts can be nasty things if you're trapped in them with no prospects, but only 4% of the workforce is actually on them, and most of those jobs need the zero-hour contracts for flexibility. That's not to say 'all' of them are that way, but the point here is that decreasing unemployment isn't some illusion created by zero hour contracts.
There's plenty of good graduates that just happen to live nowhere near where that industry is hiring. It's not that much harder moving to Berlin for work, than, say, Aberdeen. Companies may even help recruits with accomodation costs. Plus, like I said, we're not only talking about skint uni/school leavers here with no experience or resources, the age bracket allows for about 10-14 years experience.
If we're talking about 'unemployed but well qualified graduates with a ton of work experience that happen to live nowhere near the appropriate industry' (to qualify further), such people would have moved wherever the work was regardless. Although I'd wonder where they got all this experience if there's no work locally?
Regardless, it may not be much harder now, but may well be shortly!
Yup. We like foreigners and the EU up here. In fact, we know we need them to get by. The fact I want an independent Scotland doesn't mean I'm a nationalist, it just means I don't want the Tories trying to ruin my economy.
We like 'em down here in London too (more than 50% of our population is foreign!). There's a difference between patriotism and nationalism.
And lots of people are expecting a crash. Companies have frozen UK hires or are considering relocating.
Source? I mean, beyond a basic contingency plan. As far as I'm aware most major companies are waiting on the common market decision before doing anything significant.
The sentiment is largely what I've heard, and I'm not disputing that similar polls have produced similar results, but I don't know the full details of this one to compare. Have dual citizenship requests increased inline with the Cameron re-election, for instance?
Y'know, I looked to see if I could get Irish dual citizenship. Not because I'm planning on moving to the continent, but I figured if I could, it would be good for holidays. I'm not sure it's a particularly good metric for that reason alone, much the same as asking young people (who tend to be more naive/adventurous/less tied down) if they've thought about moving abroad as a measure of Brexit impact.
I'm happy to be proved wrong, but beyond the vague complaining people on my facebook (none of which seem to have actually adjusted any of their long term plans that I know of a few months on), I've seen nothing to indicate a mass exodus of young people. So until I see something substantive, I'll reserve the right to not worry about pension ramifications of such a thing just yet.
Indeed. But very few countries are big on cutting their nose of to spite their face, UK excluded. These other countries will benefit from UK workers and need migrants in general, so why would they want to kick them out?
I can see countries agreeing to free movement UK->EU but not EU->UK, rather than having no free movement at all. But since the control would be on the receiving side, they can still make it trivial to poach our skilled employees.
Perhaps. It all depends on the economics though, I'm inclined to think. So long as the economy here does alright, nobody will be heading anywhere in large waves, I'd venture to suggest. But a lot of that hinges on single market access. All we can do for now is wait and see.
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I get this feeling that far from leaving the UK, we're going to see an awful lot of people heading our way. Why?
Climate change. Access to fresh water is under threat, if that documentary is correct
and up here in Scotland, we've sitting on swimming pools full of the stuff.
If fresh water becomes the new oil, then I shall be building my own castle and creating a new cartel called
McOPEC
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: I get this feeling that far from leaving the UK, we're going to see an awful lot of people heading our way. Why?
Climate change. Access to fresh water is under threat, if that documentary is correct
and up here in Scotland, we've sitting on swimming pools full of the stuff.
If fresh water becomes the new oil, then I shall be building my own castle and creating a new cartel called
McOPEC
Except by that point the Tories will have reduced our environmental standards to basically nothing in their rush to frack and all those lakes will be acidic
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: I get this feeling that far from leaving the UK, we're going to see an awful lot of people heading our way. Why?
Climate change. Access to fresh water is under threat, if that documentary is correct
and up here in Scotland, we've sitting on swimming pools full of the stuff.
If fresh water becomes the new oil, then I shall be building my own castle and creating a new cartel called
McOPEC
Except by that point the Tories will have reduced our environmental standards to basically nothing in their rush to frack and all those lakes will be acidic
The environment is devolved to Edinburgh and the SNP put a moratorium on fracking up here
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: I get this feeling that far from leaving the UK, we're going to see an awful lot of people heading our way. Why?
Climate change. Access to fresh water is under threat, if that documentary is correct
and up here in Scotland, we've sitting on swimming pools full of the stuff.
If fresh water becomes the new oil, then I shall be building my own castle and creating a new cartel called
McOPEC
Except by that point the Tories will have reduced our environmental standards to basically nothing in their rush to frack and all those lakes will be acidic
The environment is devolved to Edinburgh and the SNP put a moratorium on fracking up here
That won't stop those lovely clouds of acid rain from blowing up your way, just ask the Scandinavians (or South America due to US pollution)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/06 14:58:20
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: I get this feeling that far from leaving the UK, we're going to see an awful lot of people heading our way. Why?
Climate change. Access to fresh water is under threat, if that documentary is correct
and up here in Scotland, we've sitting on swimming pools full of the stuff.
If fresh water becomes the new oil, then I shall be building my own castle and creating a new cartel called
McOPEC
Except by that point the Tories will have reduced our environmental standards to basically nothing in their rush to frack and all those lakes will be acidic
The environment is devolved to Edinburgh and the SNP put a moratorium on fracking up here
That won't stop those lovely clouds of acid rain from blowing up your way
I was going to make some snarky comment about wind flows and the like for Scotland, but... I can't seem to find any climatological data for Scotland, which greatly vexes me...
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: I get this feeling that far from leaving the UK, we're going to see an awful lot of people heading our way. Why?
Climate change. Access to fresh water is under threat, if that documentary is correct
and up here in Scotland, we've sitting on swimming pools full of the stuff.
If fresh water becomes the new oil, then I shall be building my own castle and creating a new cartel called
McOPEC
Except by that point the Tories will have reduced our environmental standards to basically nothing in their rush to frack and all those lakes will be acidic
The environment is devolved to Edinburgh and the SNP put a moratorium on fracking up here
That won't stop those lovely clouds of acid rain from blowing up your way
I was going to make some snarky comment about wind flows and the like for Scotland, but... I can't seem to find any climatological data for Scotland, which greatly vexes me...
IIRC, the wind over Britain tends to head (slightly South-)East, not North.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: I get this feeling that far from leaving the UK, we're going to see an awful lot of people heading our way. Why?
Climate change. Access to fresh water is under threat, if that documentary is correct
and up here in Scotland, we've sitting on swimming pools full of the stuff.
If fresh water becomes the new oil, then I shall be building my own castle and creating a new cartel called
McOPEC
Except by that point the Tories will have reduced our environmental standards to basically nothing in their rush to frack and all those lakes will be acidic
The environment is devolved to Edinburgh and the SNP put a moratorium on fracking up here
That won't stop those lovely clouds of acid rain from blowing up your way
I was going to make some snarky comment about wind flows and the like for Scotland, but... I can't seem to find any climatological data for Scotland, which greatly vexes me...
IIRC, the wind over Britain tends to head (slightly South-)East, not North.
It should, be from the NW mostly, but I wanted good hard data to back it up, and I couldn't find any. I've never had the 14th Weather Squadron fail me in those regards, they keep climo data for EVERYWHERE.
Future War Cultist wrote: A woman prime minister, rent boy scandals in politics and a satirical show featuring puppets...it's like we're in a loop or something.
The cycle cannot be broken.
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
Herzlos wrote:
Does that mean meaningful employment is actually up? I mean, 0-hours contracts count as employment, but may not actually result in any work. Ditto with part time, people may not be unemployed but they may still be seeking minimal work.
Yes. In a word. It should also be noted that being on a zero hours contract is not always a bad thing. ONS research showed them to be vastly focused in mobile seasonal industries, like tourism, food, and hospitality, the average work week for a zero hours contract was 25 hours, and of the 1.4 million people on them, only 14% were actively looking for more work.
Zero hours contracts can be nasty things if you're trapped in them with no prospects, but only 4% of the workforce is actually on them, and most of those jobs need the zero-hour contracts for flexibility. That's not to say 'all' of them are that way, but the point here is that decreasing unemployment isn't some illusion created by zero hour contracts.
Well, most of the rest of the EU manages without zero hours contracts and McDonalds and the like still employ people.
I don't really mind a 16-year old burger flipper on a zero hour contract but when you get nurses and social care workers on that kind of agreement something is really rotten.
....British reggae band UB40 have praised Jeremy Corbyn as an "incorruptible politician" who will put working people first as they backed his campaign to remain as Labour leader.
The group, who have sold 70 million records, said Mr Corbyn had inspired young people and offered a "believable" alternative to business as usual.
Other celebrity backers for Mr Corbyn include singer Lily Allen.
But best-selling Harry Potter author JK Rowling has called him a lousy leader.
Mr Corbyn is being challenged for the leadership by Owen Smith. The result of the election will be announced on 24 September.
The Labour leader, who has said he wants the arts to be a priority for the next Labour government, has received a number of celebrity endorsements in recent weeks.....
@ Ketara Have you ever worked on a zero hours basis ?
Its hard to be awesome, when your playing with little plastic men. Welcome to Fantasy 40k
If you think your important, in the great scheme of things. Do the water test.
Put your hands in a bucket of warm water,
then pull them out fast. The size of the hole shows how important you are.
I think we should roll some dice, to see if we should roll some dice, To decide if all this dice rolling is good for the game.
