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They were a party of government from 2010 to 2015, hardly the fringe.

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
This is because the SNP votes of course are completely concentrated in Scotland.

You mean that the Scottish National Party only puts forward candidates in Scotland! I am thoroughly shocked and amazed.

The Lib Dems have always been a fringe party and they are at a very low ebb these days. I voted Lib Dem in 2010, that went well.

I wouldn't call 2.5 million votes a fringe party when it's still 1 million more than SNP got in 2015. At their height they had almost 7 million votes. At their peak they were only a couple of million shy of what Labour were getting in 2010. Then they sold their soul.

 Avatar 720 wrote:
And after a relaxing few weeks off from being the only opposition party in the UK, Labour have returned to exactly where they were before the referendum: nowhere.

Anyone hailing this as a huge victory is rather missing the fact that it should never have happened in the first place, and has not gained them anything; only stopped them from losing more.

What we'll see from Labour now is everyone grudgingly asking for their jobs back, and Corbyn reluctantly giving them back, because they're the only experienced people Labour has and it's either give them their jobs back, or promote the interns who make the tea.

This is yet another time that Corbyn needs to grab the metaphorical bull by its metaphorical balls and actually become an opposition party people must get behind, but given his rather poor record of taking the initiative, I suspect there'll be a few muttered words about unity and then back to the same old nothing.

This. After June 23rd, the Tories had hit rock bottom. Party in disarray, Cameron gone...

Any half-competent opposition party would and should have ripped the Tories to shreds, but they let them off the hook.


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 Whirlwind wrote:

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
This is because the SNP votes of course are completely concentrated in Scotland.

You mean that the Scottish National Party only puts forward candidates in Scotland! I am thoroughly shocked and amazed.

The Lib Dems have always been a fringe party and they are at a very low ebb these days. I voted Lib Dem in 2010, that went well.

I wouldn't call 2.5 million votes a fringe party when it's still 1 million more than SNP got in 2015. At their height they had almost 7 million votes. At their peak they were only a couple of million shy of what Labour were getting in 2010. Then they sold their soul.

If the SNP were standing across the whole of the UK or were teaming up with some 'Northern Alliance in North England, I have no doubt they would hammer the Lib Dems.

The Scottish Lib Dems are even more irrelevant and shambolic than their southern counterparts, and that is no mean accomplishment.

The problem was that the Labour Party as well as the Conservatives are pro-EU, so Cameron's disaster was a disaster for them too, and the Lib Dems, and SNP.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The problem was that the Labour Party as well as the Conservatives are pro-EU, so Cameron's disaster was a disaster for them too, and the Lib Dems, and SNP.

True, but Corbyn has been anti-EU since day one. His half-way house approach only made him seem weak and dithering. He should have come down fully on one side or the other.

 Whirlwind wrote:

I wouldn't call 2.5 million votes a fringe party when it's still 1 million more than SNP got in 2015. A

That's UK wide and therefor largely irrelevant when discussing Scottish politics. In Scotland the LDs got 7.5% and the SNP got 50% of the vote, no comparison.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
They were a party of government from 2010 to 2015, hardly the fringe.

A party of coalition government, a very different beast that is strongly regretting that coalition today. The LDs have never even been close to power in their own right and they have never been a serious left wing alternative, hence Labour's unpunished (in England) slip to the right.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


The Scottish Lib Dems are even more irrelevant and shambolic than their southern counterparts, and that is no mean accomplishment.

I wouldn't call them shambolic. They are quite clear on their policies. I have no knowledge of what they do in Scotland but I thought they had some strongholds in the northern islands?


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 Silent Puffin? wrote:


That's UK wide and therefor largely irrelevant when discussing Scottish politics. In Scotland the LDs got 7.5% and the SNP got 50% of the vote, no comparison.

I'm not sure we were talking just about Scottish politics though were we?


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 Silent Puffin? wrote:

A party of coalition government, a very different beast that is strongly regretting that coalition today. The LDs have never even been close to power in their own right and they have never been a serious left wing alternative, hence Labour's unpunished (in England) slip to the right.

Didn't the Liberals hold power in the mid to late 1800's?


This article in itself is interesting but what must be very worrying for Labour is that within a few hours of JC winning they are already trying to persuade people not to leave labour by starting up a #StayinLabour twitter hashtag. That can't be a good sign when there's no celebrations but a desperate scramble to keep people in and supporting the party.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/owen-smith-exit-poll-jeremy-corbyn-yougov-electiondata_uk_57e652e2e4b0e81629a9d393?utm_hp_ref=uk&utm_hp_ref=uk

The Liberal Party did win almost all the elections [or made unions with the conservatives] from the 1860s to 1910s, but they were not the same as the Liberal Democrats. That party has only been around since when said Liberal party merged with the SDP in the late 1980s.

And that is where they can now win ground, and support. When the Tories make a complete fcuk up of BREXIT, which is inevitable no matter what you may hope for, a well positioned Labour party could potentially draw from a whole range of grassroots support, if they concentrate on what ordinary people want.

I don't believe that the left wing is finished in Britain. Some seem to think that only a "centrist left" read Blairite, or watered down Tory, mish mash of govt can exist in the UK. However, Britain has shown that it is sick of the politics that hangs around the centre, the spin and lies, and are ready for change.

People only think that Labour is too left wing because we've all slid to the right. The media is overwhelmingly right wing, and liberal financial policies rule.
All that Liberal finance has done is move the lucrative, profit making aspects of infrastructure into private hands, while the tax payer still forks out to support these industries.
However, mention that, and people look like you've grown another head. Where was the "to big to fail" philosophy behind British industry? Only select industries such as defence and finance have been saved and propped up, everything else has been destroyed. Not based on a sound financial basis, but on ideological grounds. Tories and Blairites looking after the super rich, and hoping people will fall for the trickle down guff. There's a whole flood of cash going up, but feth all coming back down again.

 r_squared wrote:
And that is where they can now win ground, and support. When the Tories make a complete fcuk up of BREXIT, which is inevitable no matter what you may hope for, a well positioned Labour party could potentially draw from a whole range of grassroots support, if they concentrate on what ordinary people want.

I don't believe that the left wing is finished in Britain. Some seem to think that only a "centrist left" read Blairite, or watered down Tory, mish mash of govt can exist in the UK. However, Britain has shown that it is sick of the politics that hangs around the centre, the spin and lies, and are ready for change.

I don't think that any of this is unreasonable. The only question is; is Corbyn and Momentum that change that's desired? I suspect not. Hopefully his (much more effective) replacement will hurry into the spotlight before it's too late....

 Whirlwind wrote:

I'm not sure we were talking just about Scottish politics though were we?

I certainly was, originally in reference to this post.

 Ketara wrote:

To quote Yodhrin from a time back, the Labour machine in Scotland has dissolved. The party activists have gone, the local offices are underfunded, and the SNP has effectively occupied for the long term a good half of their old seats regardless of a Labour comeback or not.

My comments on the relative 'electoral credibility' of the LDs however have relevance both within and without Scotland.

 Ketara wrote:

I don't think that any of this is unreasonable. The only question is; is Corbyn and Momentum that change that's desired? I suspect not. Hopefully his (much more effective) replacement will hurry into the spotlight before it's too late....

That really depends on whether they try and entrench their position as much as possible now and it's not looking overly hopeful. The question they are eventually going to have to ask is whether they are willing to sacrifice electability against an uncompromising left wing approach to things. THe longer they leave it the more chance their support will dwindle to being the opposition in name only.

 Whirlwind wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


The Scottish Lib Dems are even more irrelevant and shambolic than their southern counterparts, and that is no mean accomplishment.

I wouldn't call them shambolic. They are quite clear on their policies. I have no knowledge of what they do in Scotland but I thought they had some strongholds in the northern islands?


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 Silent Puffin? wrote:


That's UK wide and therefor largely irrelevant when discussing Scottish politics. In Scotland the LDs got 7.5% and the SNP got 50% of the vote, no comparison.

I'm not sure we were talking just about Scottish politics though were we?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

A party of coalition government, a very different beast that is strongly regretting that coalition today. The LDs have never even been close to power in their own right and they have never been a serious left wing alternative, hence Labour's unpunished (in England) slip to the right.

Didn't the Liberals hold power in the mid to late 1800's?


This article in itself is interesting but what must be very worrying for Labour is that within a few hours of JC winning they are already trying to persuade people not to leave labour by starting up a #StayinLabour twitter hashtag. That can't be a good sign when there's no celebrations but a desperate scramble to keep people in and supporting the party.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/owen-smith-exit-poll-jeremy-corbyn-yougov-electiondata_uk_57e652e2e4b0e81629a9d393?utm_hp_ref=uk&utm_hp_ref=uk

Consider yourself lucky that you have no knowledge of the Scottish Liberal Democrats.

A phone box would be to big a venue for their membership


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ketara wrote:

 r_squared wrote:
And that is where they can now win ground, and support. When the Tories make a complete fcuk up of BREXIT, which is inevitable no matter what you may hope for, a well positioned Labour party could potentially draw from a whole range of grassroots support, if they concentrate on what ordinary people want.

I don't believe that the left wing is finished in Britain. Some seem to think that only a "centrist left" read Blairite, or watered down Tory, mish mash of govt can exist in the UK. However, Britain has shown that it is sick of the politics that hangs around the centre, the spin and lies, and are ready for change.

I don't think that any of this is unreasonable. The only question is; is Corbyn and Momentum that change that's desired? I suspect not. Hopefully his (much more effective) replacement will hurry into the spotlight before it's too late....

Corbyn is destined to go the way of Foot and Kinnock, and I'd bet my house on that.

@ DINLT

That will be a safe bet. History usually repeats itself eventually, and Labour is finished as a credible party of opposition, never mind government. But hey, at least they're ideologically pure now.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
@ DINLT

That will be a safe bet. History usually repeats itself eventually, and Labour is finished as a credible party of opposition, never mind government. But hey, at least they're ideologically pure now.

Even if Corbyn wasn't Labour leader, there are too many factors against Labour, much of which has already been mentioned on this thread: boundary changes, Middle England, loss of Scotland, etc etc

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Even if Corbyn wasn't Labour leader, there are too many factors against Labour, much of which has already been mentioned on this thread: boundary changes, Middle England, loss of Scotland, etc etc

So then what hope is there? LD may hoover up some of the pro-EU crowd (like me) but they aren't going to attract the pro-Leave. Labour are spent as a useful force at the moment and if they carry on in the same direction will be for some decades. SNP only works for Scotland and likely to be more pro-independence as time goes on with nothing but Tories in the Westminster.

So we are going to be left with a hard right Tory government that has no interest in benefiting anything but the very well off whilst spouting nonsense that they are for the people whilst they entrench more powers to themselves (and UKIP would only be worse than this). Regardless of which side of the EU fence and the Brexit vote you are on I'm not sure this is what anyone needs (apart from the very rich and the Tories obviously).

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Even if Corbyn wasn't Labour leader, there are too many factors against Labour, much of which has already been mentioned on this thread: boundary changes, Middle England, loss of Scotland, etc etc

If Labour can re/engage the millions of people who rarely if ever vote those factors simply don't matter.

I don't see that happening. They'll shore up all the SWP types but ordinary people wil have nothing to do with them.

 Silent Puffin? wrote:


If Labour can re/engage the millions of people who rarely if ever vote those factors simply don't matter.

You means the ones not on the electoral register so aren't being counted when it comes to redefining the boundaries. That's not going to work. They'll just find themselves in already Labour areas and their votes won't mean diddly squat I'm afraid.

On an aside, here are some disturbing Brexit posters you never saw

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/nigel-farage-brexit-poster_uk_57e6a1c7e4b004d4d862d6ca?utm_hp_ref=uk


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 Future War Cultist wrote:
I don't see that happening. They'll shore up all the SWP types but ordinary people wil have nothing to do with them.

Agreed

 Whirlwind wrote:
That's not going to work.

It worked for the SNP.

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

 Whirlwind wrote:
That's not going to work.

It worked for the SNP.

The SNP is different. SNP have similar leanings to Labour in 'broad brush' terms. Hence as Labour already held strongholds it's not a surprise that a left wing anti-austerity with a pro-Scotland view became more dominant over a centre-left begrudgingly accepting austerity with a Westminster focus (I accept this is a big generalisation). The issue in the UK is that there are not millions of unregistered Labour supporters sitting out in the Tory strongholds that can swing the vote (perhaps shy LDs though such as in the SW). The majority of the Labour unregistered voters are in already Labour dominated areas. It doesn't matter in a FPTP system if you win by 1 vote or 5 million the result is the same you win *one* seat. That's why basing the electoral boundaries off registered voters is flawed (and never mind the fact it didn't include those who signed for the referendum!). Labour can activate all those hidden voters but it makes no difference if they are already in a Labour held area (it just makes their majority larger). What Labour need to do is persuade those with a centre-slightly right leaning that left wing approaches are not such a bad thing if implemented correctly so you can take back over some of these Tory held areas. JC is never going to achieve this.

Apparently Corbyn just said on the Andrew Marr show that if he wins power, doctors will be prevented from working privately in their own time (either in private practice or as locums) if they also work for the NHS in any capacity.

No mention on what he'll do to replace them when they all decide to work privately full time.

*sighs*

This is exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about when I say 'half-baked' ideas. He means well, but he just doesn't seem to think things through. Whilst it's great not having every soundbyte polished and question deflected, his constant overreaching statements that he then inevitably retracts later after everyone asks him if he's a bloody idiot, just leaves you looking at him in a sort of mild despair.

 Ketara wrote:
Apparently Corbyn just said on the Andrew Marr show that if he wins power, doctors will be prevented from working privately in their own time (either in private practice or as locums) if they also work for the NHS in any capacity.

No mention on what he'll do to replace them when they all decide to work privately full time.

*sighs*

This is exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about when I say 'half-baked' ideas. He means well, but he just doesn't seem to think things through. Whilst it's great not having every soundbyte polished and question deflected, his constant overreaching statements that he then inevitably retracts later after everyone asks him if he's a bloody idiot, just leaves you looking at him in a sort of mild despair.

Half baked? The stupid old fart hasn't even put these ideas into the oven to begin with, never mind half bake them.

Stop picking on old farts

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Even if Corbyn wasn't Labour leader, there are too many factors against Labour, much of which has already been mentioned on this thread: boundary changes, Middle England, loss of Scotland, etc etc

If Labour can re/engage the millions of people who rarely if ever vote those factors simply don't matter.

Problem is, those millions of people who rarely vote, voted to leave in June, and are mostly leaning towards UKIP, despite UKIP's problems.

If UKIP get their act together, they'll hoover those voters up.

If you voted leave, why would you return to a pro-EU Labour party?


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 Whirlwind wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Even if Corbyn wasn't Labour leader, there are too many factors against Labour, much of which has already been mentioned on this thread: boundary changes, Middle England, loss of Scotland, etc etc

So then what hope is there? LD may hoover up some of the pro-EU crowd (like me) but they aren't going to attract the pro-Leave. Labour are spent as a useful force at the moment and if they carry on in the same direction will be for some decades. SNP only works for Scotland and likely to be more pro-independence as time goes on with nothing but Tories in the Westminster.

So we are going to be left with a hard right Tory government that has no interest in benefiting anything but the very well off whilst spouting nonsense that they are for the people whilst they entrench more powers to themselves (and UKIP would only be worse than this). Regardless of which side of the EU fence and the Brexit vote you are on I'm not sure this is what anyone needs (apart from the very rich and the Tories obviously).

Sadly, we're stuck with the Tories until 2025 at the earliest


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 Ketara wrote:
Apparently Corbyn just said on the Andrew Marr show that if he wins power, doctors will be prevented from working privately in their own time (either in private practice or as locums) if they also work for the NHS in any capacity.

No mention on what he'll do to replace them when they all decide to work privately full time.

*sighs*

This is exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about when I say 'half-baked' ideas. He means well, but he just doesn't seem to think things through. Whilst it's great not having every soundbyte polished and question deflected, his constant overreaching statements that he then inevitably retracts later after everyone asks him if he's a bloody idiot, just leaves you looking at him in a sort of mild despair.

Yeah, it's up there with his nuclear submarines without nuclear warheads idea

We've had our disagreements on trident, but we did agree that you either back trident, or are opposed to it.

Corbyn's half-way house, compromise approach, was embarrassing.

The pathetic policies are one thing, but what really irks me about Corbyn is how he pretends to be this nice decent chap but in actual fact he's a nasty little bastard underneath. Some examples:

He was supporting the IRA at the height of their power. If he really wanted peace here in Northern Ireland but also wanted Irish unitary he could have supported the SDLP. But no, he was there at the republican funerals openly stating his support for them. And he claimed that he only spoke to the republicans to bring about peace. Strange then that he didn't do the same to the loyalists to try and encourage them to disarm too. No, he was supporting the IRA because they're anti-British and to him that's always good. And I say all this as a northern Irish Catholic. I've no time for the IRA at all.

He took money to appear on both Russian and Iranian state TV. If he had any sense of decency he'd have told them to get stuffed but no. He was happy to take that money and be their shill. Again, because they're anti-west and to a sad old Marxist like him that's always acceptable.

And when a Jewish labour mp was publicly abused by one of his fanboys using the tired old Zionist conspiracy argument and forced to partically flee the place he watched on with a smile on his lips and later happily spoke to the creep instead of reprimanding him. Not to mention the whole whitewash of his anti-semitism investigation and giving a peerage to the woman behind it. That's a conflict of interest if I ever saw one.

No, he's not just an idiot. He's a nasty bastard too.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Problem is, those millions of people who rarely vote, voted to leave in June, and are mostly leaning towards UKIP, despite UKIP's problems.

Nearly 30% of the electorate didn't even vote in the EU referrendum so that will be hard to prove.

 Whirlwind wrote:

The SNP is different.

That's obvious but they still managed to engage with thousands of people who had never been near a ballot box in their lives. If Labour can replicate that then they will demolish the next GE.

If a party that doesn't exist yet manages to inspire the non voting population to vote at the next GE they will wipe the floor with everyone.

A lot of people are apathetic towards the government, and there isn't a lot that can be done to change that. People have been trying for decades.

 welshhoppo wrote:
If a party that doesn't exist yet manages to inspire the non voting population to vote at the next GE they will wipe the floor with everyone.

Thats very unlikely in 4 years. The Labour party on the other hand is already established and has a fairly broad voter base, they just need a top up.

 welshhoppo wrote:
People have been trying for decades.

They haven't been trying very hard. Corbyn is sufficiently different and populist that he could engage with these people, at least potentially.

An interesting poll:
Panelbase Sunday Times Scotland poll UK general election voting intentions
SNP 50%
Tories 21%
Labour 16%
Lib Dem 5%
Greens 4%
UKIP 4%

Slab is truely lost if this poll is accurate and Kezia Dugdale is not looking good either...

 welshhoppo wrote:
If a party that doesn't exist yet manages to inspire the non voting population to vote at the next GE they will wipe the floor with everyone.

A lot of people are apathetic towards the government, and there isn't a lot that can be done to change that. People have been trying for decades.

Not trying hard enough to vote for PR, though, which would go a long way to solve the problem.