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Apologies if I start ranting, but this needed to be said:

For two years in the run up to the Independence referendum in 2014, Yes supporters like myself were branded Nazis, bitter nationalists, anti-English, divisive, ready to have the river turn red with non-Scottish blood.

And yet, here we are, with Tory politicians talking about British jobs for British workers, firms having to declare how many foreign workers they have, restrictions on foreign doctors, and so on and so on....

The mood of the Tory conference is xenophobia, anti-foreigner....

EU citizens could vote in the 2014 referendum. They were not allowed to vote in the 2016 referendum, and yet, we're supposed to be the bitter nationalists, the country that voted to stay in the EU by almost two thirds...

My irony meter has melted....


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Herzlos wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

I have no regrets at voting to leave, but neither did I anticipate the Tories going full 1950s mode

That's pretty much why I voted to stay. I've lately held the belief that the Tories are the most dangerous threat to the country (and I even voted for them once, because they promised (and actually did) scrap that National ID scheme farce. I've since learned my lesson).

The Tory mask has slipped, because they know that there is no opposition to stop them...

Corbyn's probably making a documentary about East Germany or something.


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 A Town Called Malus wrote:
LBCs James O'Brien had this to say in response to Amber Rudd:

https://www.facebook.com/LBC/videos/10154347212196558/?hc_ref=NEWSFEED

Private Eye did a special on Rudd and her family. Bunch of crooks...

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

And yet, here we are, with Tory politicians talking about British jobs for British workers, firms having to declare how many foreign workers they have, restrictions on foreign doctors, and so on and so on....

Having voted for it, how do you feel about this?

 MrDwhitey wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

And yet, here we are, with Tory politicians talking about British jobs for British workers, firms having to declare how many foreign workers they have, restrictions on foreign doctors, and so on and so on....

Having voted for it, how do you feel about this?

I voted for Scottish independence in 2014, and if that had went to plan, none of this would be concerning me, although my sympathy would extend to my friends and family in England still stuck under the Tories.

As for the EU, no regrets over voting to leave that wretched institution.

Alas, despite my years, I should have known better than to underestimate the Tories' lust for power. I did not anticipate them bouncing back this quickly. I fully expected a Tory civil war after June 23rd between Cameron's mob and the hard core Euro-Skeptics...

Then again, neither did I expect Labour to be this awful, either...

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
, because they know that there is no opposition to stop them...

Don't be so sure. The PLP will be much less likely to rebel after the recent (overwhelming) leadership contest result, the Tories are being their usual nasty selves and Labour have 2 years to regain trust and credibility as a party.

Nicola Sturgeon wrote:

Theresa May’s speech comes as the Tories signal they are poised to target foreign workers in the most disgraceful display of reactionary rightwing politics in living memory.

It is an appalling, regressive, and hugely troubling development which will leave many people in Scotland – and across the rest of the UK and beyond – wondering, with real concern, what kind of country the Tories want us to be.

The prime minister has claimed that she is seeking out the middle ground of politics. The repellent reality of the policies planned by her party could not be more different.

Theresa May’s vision of Brexit Britain is a deeply ugly one: a country where people are judged not by their ability or their contribution to the common good but by their birthplace or by their passport.

It is a vision the Scottish government wants no part of, and one which we will never subscribe to. Ours is a vision of an inclusive, tolerant and just society, and we will do everything in our power to shape Scotland in that way.

Indeed. Link

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
, because they know that there is no opposition to stop them...

Don't be so sure. The PLP will be much less likely to rebel after the recent (overwhelming) leadership contest result, the Tories are being their usual nasty selves and Labour have 2 years to regain trust and credibility as a party.

Nicola Sturgeon wrote:

Theresa May’s speech comes as the Tories signal they are poised to target foreign workers in the most disgraceful display of reactionary rightwing politics in living memory.

It is an appalling, regressive, and hugely troubling development which will leave many people in Scotland – and across the rest of the UK and beyond – wondering, with real concern, what kind of country the Tories want us to be.

The prime minister has claimed that she is seeking out the middle ground of politics. The repellent reality of the policies planned by her party could not be more different.

Theresa May’s vision of Brexit Britain is a deeply ugly one: a country where people are judged not by their ability or their contribution to the common good but by their birthplace or by their passport.

It is a vision the Scottish government wants no part of, and one which we will never subscribe to. Ours is a vision of an inclusive, tolerant and just society, and we will do everything in our power to shape Scotland in that way.

Indeed. Link

2 years? It may as well be two hundred years for all the good Corbyn will do.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

2 years? It may as well be two hundred years for all the good Corbyn will do.

Labour is currently the biggest political party in western Europe, entirely under Corbyn's tenure as Labour leader, don't count him out.

On a personal level I am happy that the Tories have reverted to their old selves as it makes an independent Scotland so much more likely, there are already rumblings about amending the Scotland act without consulting the Scottish parliament and if Westminster does that (which they probably will to force through their 'Great Repeal Bill') what else will they be unilaterally changing? The great 'vow' was dying the day after the no vote with Cameron's EVEL speach, it lurched around zombie like for a while and now its sad remains have almost completely decomposed.

Current polling puts support for independence at 47%, I can easily see the Tories pushing it past the magic 50 mark even without the sure to be 'interesting' Brexit settlement.

 MrDwhitey wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

And yet, here we are, with Tory politicians talking about British jobs for British workers, firms having to declare how many foreign workers they have, restrictions on foreign doctors, and so on and so on....

Having voted for it, how do you feel about this?

As someone who also voted Leave , I have no regrets. I don't support the Tories, nor Labour. I hold them with equal contempt. I'll probably abstain in the next election, unless the SNP decide to try and broaden their appeal and seek seats in England and become a British party, not just a Scottish party.

This is an interesting article on the 'state of the union', I'm not sure I agree with everything(politicians have always been self serving...) but its worth reading none the less.

These two crises cannot be treated in isolation. The most far-reaching response so far to emerge to this double crisis is a new ‘Act of Union bill’, proposed by a cabal of Westminster worthies led by a Conservative Peer and calling themselves the ‘Constitutional Reform Group’. In so far as this plan for ‘home rule all-round’ would transfer a greater range of powers to the four constituent parts of the UK, it might be cautiously welcomed. However, the bill steadfastly refuse to address the wider and deeper aspects of the UK’s unfolding constitutional crisis: the unrepresentative electoral system, the shadowy and unaccountable crown prerogatives, the fragile protection for human rights, the murky that results from reliance on unwritten rules, and the collapse of both political ethics and public trust. It might have been an adequate patch had it been proposed a decade or more ago, but the time for such partial and piecemeal solutions is over.

That is a very good read. I don't agree with everything but it is thought provoking and well argued.

I was staunchly against Scottish independence, I felt that the UK was a strong, worthy and positive institution. I was also a staunch remainer, I believe that strength comes from unity, not division.
However, since BREXIT, I wish my Scottish cousins well when they eventually fulfill their independence.
I cannot see any BREXITEER, ever saying that the Scots cannot have their independence, regardless of the cost to them or us, it would be the most monumental and disgusting hypocrisy.
Frankly, if I were in Scotland, I would be on the streets demanding independence now.

 r_squared wrote:

Frankly, if I were in Scotland, I would be on the streets demanding independence now.

Softly softly, catchy monkey.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Apologies if I start ranting, but this needed to be said:
For two years in the run up to the Independence referendum in 2014, Yes supporters like myself were branded Nazis, bitter nationalists, anti-English, divisive, ready to have the river turn red with non-Scottish blood.
And yet, here we are, with Tory politicians talking about British jobs for British workers, firms having to declare how many foreign workers they have, restrictions on foreign doctors, and so on and so on....
The mood of the Tory conference is xenophobia, anti-foreigner....

This has been hyped beyond reason. The mood towards ensuring British workers get a fair share of British jobs is a positive one.

A significant number of employers only hire Eastern Europeans, some go as far as to only advertise positions in the foreign press or in foreign language newspapers.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/jun/21/job-agencies-prefer-foreign-workers
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/643324/Economic-migrants-to-be-favoured-for-work-AHEAD-of-jobless-Britons

As seen the presson both the left and the right are noticing the phenomenon.

Now the excuse for this is because to paraphrase 'British workers are lazy'.
Lets deconstruct this a little. British workers are lazy, all of them? How fething racist is that. Because someone is not a Pole he wont work as hard, really? Now if employers said 'we dont hire blacks/asians/women/gays etc because they are workshy' they would be immediately pointed out quite rightly as bigots. However the 'British' have no minority status, no protection and there is nobody to stand up for them when they are discriminated against.

Yes it is wrong to target foreign workers in race attacks, it is not their fault, it is the fault of political correctness which is so intent on minority rights that the majority can be blatantly discriminated against openly and on a vast scale, and nothing is done about it despite all the civic protections this nation possesses. However rather than blame the propblem on the 'far right' politicians need to pull the rug under far right support by giving disenfranchised white workers the voice, equality and protection their civil rights ought to provide them but does not.

The answer is to ensure EQUAL OPPORTUNITIES. You know the sort of thing we supposedly have had for decades but in reality only applies if you have minority status. Political correctness was just a con trick and always was, equality was never the intention, or these problems would not have happened. Political correctness is about disestablishmentarianism and restructuring the society for the betterment of a new parliamentary elite, in this case Labour.

We must be crystal clear that discrimination againt minorities is not to be tolerated, and that those who came to the Uk legally from Eastern Euirope and elsewhere are welcome to stay and maker a fresh start here. They shouldn't face discrimantion or embitterment, and if they do get jobs unfairly people should understand that it is the fault of discrimination by employers and not the problem of the people who take the jobs.
however employers who discriminate against British workers should be penalised, especially on the disgusting a racist nonsense that British workers are inherently workshy and should therefore be avoided. There is already a mechanism to fine and censure discriminatory employers, it is now time that these laws are used not just to benefit weomen and minorities but also British citizens who are unfairly labeled due to their race by bigotted employers who ought to know better.

I can understand Do_I_Not_Like_That's fear and confusion, for too long equal opportunities for Britons have largely been overlooked, and people have been conditioned into believing that equality is necessary for the benefit of minorities only. wheras not every white male is in a position of privilege, far from it.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/163012/Firms-face-legal-action-over-jobs-only-for-Polish
Gordon Brown did nowt about it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-19300051
Tories are often no better.

 r_squared wrote:
I was staunchly against Scottish independence, I felt that the UK was a strong, worthy and positive institution. I was also a staunch remainer, I believe that strength comes from unity, not division.
However, since BREXIT, I wish my Scottish cousins well when they eventually fulfill their independence

In other words...you didn't get the result you wanted in the EU referendum, so you want to throw a tantrum and break up the UK out of spite...

I cannot see any BREXITEER, ever saying that the Scots cannot have their independence, regardless of the cost to them or us, it would be the most monumental and disgusting hypocrisy.
Frankly, if I were in Scotland, I would be on the streets demanding independence now.

Sure, they can have independence...when a majority of their population votes for it in a referendum.

But there should be NO second referendum until the withdrawal of the UK from the EU is complete, and the consequences of BREXIT (economic, political, diplomatic etc) are clear and we've settled into a new status quo so Scottish voters can make an informed choice. Which would probably at least 10 years. You cannot hold Referenda on a whim every couple of years simply because you didn't get your own way the first time around. That simply undermines the point of holding Referenda in the first place.

Basically, they should wait and see until BREXIT is concluded to decide if they truly like the new UK or want to change their minds and go independent.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
You cannot hold Referenda on a whim every couple of years simply because you didn't get your own way the first time around.

The 'Vow' is in tatters and there are fundamental changes since 2014 in the form of Brexit. There are very real grounds for a second referendum, even Ruth Davidson agrees with this.

Waiting to see whatever train wreck that eventually emerges from Brexit isn't needed, once article 50 is invoked the die is cast.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 r_squared wrote:
I was staunchly against Scottish independence, I felt that the UK was a strong, worthy and positive institution. I was also a staunch remainer, I believe that strength comes from unity, not division.
However, since BREXIT, I wish my Scottish cousins well when they eventually fulfill their independence

In other words...you didn't get the result you wanted in the EU referendum, so you want to throw a tantrum and break up the UK out of spite...

...

Or, I no longer object to a nation seeking it's own independence. It's clear now to me that any nation that decides that it should seek it's own future outside of established unions should be allowed to do so. I don't feel it is fair, however, that the English and Welsh should drag the Scots and Irish down a route that they absolutely do not wish to pursue. They should be allowed to go their own way, just as we are. Besides, I never laid out a timetable, they can go whenever they like. Good luck to them.

I would also argue that the political landscape has changed so profoundly, that the Scots have a legitimate reason to hold a referendum to decide whether or not they wish to follow the rUK down the path they have chosen.
Why should they have to wait 10 years for that? Especially as the goal posts have changed so dramatically. Who are you to decide what the parameters are for them to decide their independence?
If Sturgeon is able to garner sufficient support, and organise a referendum that considers the new status quo, then I would whole heartedly support that, whether it's in 2 years, or 10.

Who are you to decide what the parameters are for them to decide their independence?

Who do you think YOU are to demand referenda after referenda after referenda until you get your own way?

The Scots made their decision. They have to live with it. And so does everyone in the UK, with regards to BREXIT. Scotland knew that an EU referendum was on the horizon, such was the political climate at the time with UKIP and anti-EU sentiment on the rise. Cameron even made it a manifesto pledge. And still they voted to retain the Union, despite the very real possibility of being overruled in a future referendum on our EU membership.

Referenda, as with elections, have consequences. You don't have the right to keep on demanding them until you get the result you wanted. Doing so undermines the entire purpose of referenda - if voters are really that indecisive, then we shouldn't hold them at all and just leave the decision up to our elected representatives entirely.

And its all a moot point anyway. EU Membership for a newly independent Scotland is in no way guaranteed. You won't get to just inherit the UK's membership, as Barroso himself stated.

In 2012, the House of Lords Economic Affairs Committee sought a clarification about how Scottish independence might affect its EU membership from the then European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso. In his response, Barroso wrote:
"Although there is no certainty, it appears an independent Scotland would not automatically become a member of the EU but would instead have to re-apply and complete a process of accession... A new independent state would, by the fact of its independence, become a third country with respect to the EU and the Treaties would no longer apply on its territory."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36619907

If Scotland wants to go down that route, seceding from the UK and applying to join the EU as a new member state, then they'll have a fight on their hands. Spain and other member states with secessionist movements will likely try to obstruct it.


Either way, whether Scots like it or not, they ARE going to be withdrawing from the EU. They might as well wait until BREXIT negotiations and the UK's withdrawal are concluded, so they can judge the aftermath and make an informed decision on whether or not they like the new status quo, instead of throwing a tantrum and making a rash decision.

If they still vote to secede from the UK after the conclusion of BREXIT, then I will wish them well. I'll be sad to see them go, but will respect their democratic right.

We're not talking about endless referendums, and other hyperbole, we're talking about a fundemental change to the political landscape and the triggering of a vote based on that fact.
This is not small beans, i imgaine that it is fundemental to the feelings of sovereignty held by many Scottish Nationalists.

Being part of the EU was a large part of the argument for remaining in the UK, and now we are leaving, it is only fair that the Scottish should be allowed to decide whether they want to follow or not, regardless of their chances of joining the EU again afterwards.
If you keep throwing obstacles in the way, no matter how reasonable you think they are, ultimately they will tell you to feth off, no matter the consequences.
We've just seen what happens when you get people angry enough, they have a tendency to stick two fingers upto the establishment.


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 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
.... make an informed decision on whether or not they like the new status quo, instead of throwing a tantrum and making a rash decision....

Sorry, just re-read that, and the irony of criticising people for throwing a tantrum, making informed decisions, and making a rash decisions is just fething hilarious!

I think Shadow Captain Edithae you forget that for some people, EU membership is more than just an economic factor. It's also a way of being a citizen of a continent and having the right to travel and settle anywhere across it. The language I have seen from many of the scots discussing the issue has focused heavily on their desire to maintain this opportunity.
With the announcements over the last few days, it is fairly safe to say this is going to be lost for Britain. The status qou is going to be, 'your just a British citizen from here, suck it up.' How is it fair to drag them out of something they voted to stay within in the first place? Twice in fact if you believe that the EU access was the overriding reason they decided to stay part of the UK!

For all the people complaining and becoming angry about the EU supposedly taking away your countries sovereignty and ability to be patriotic. How did that make you feel? Put yourselves in the shoes of those who are facing the loss of their citizenship to Europe? How do you think we feel right now?

So you value your "European Citizenship" more than your British Citizenship?

Yes, why wouldn't I? Why would I want to be a citizen just of a small Island when I am currently a citizen of a continent? A citizen alongside 500million others? There is a big difference between legal citizenship and the half-assed - oh but you will still be part of Europe that I have had several Brexiters say to me.

Yes, there will be ways to regain that citizenship, but in my case its a timescale of years/decades.

Just to avoid any confusion - I am English by birth.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
So you value your "European Citizenship" more than your British Citizenship?

So you value your "British Citizenship" over their Scottish Citizenship then?

 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
So you value your "European Citizenship" more than your British Citizenship?

So you value your "British Citizenship" over their Scottish Citizenship then?

I see you can't be arsed to properly read my previous comment then?

If they still vote to secede from the UK after the conclusion of BREXIT, then I will wish them well. I'll be sad to see them go, but will respect their democratic right.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
So you value your "European Citizenship" more than your British Citizenship?

So you value your "British Citizenship" over their Scottish Citizenship then?

I see you can't be arsed to properly read my previous comment then?

If they still vote to secede from the UK after the conclusion of BREXIT, then I will wish them well. I'll be sad to see them go, but will respect their democratic right.

Why should they wait if they want the vote sooner? What is the legal basis for making them wait until the Brexit negotiations are over? If you would respect their democratic right after Brexit then why are you so opposed to them getting to exercise their democratic right before Brexit is finished?

 Optio wrote:
Yes, why wouldn't I? Why would I want to be a citizen just of a small Island when I am currently a citizen of a continent? A citizen alongside 500million others? There is a big difference between legal citizenship and the half-assed - oh but you will still be part of Europe that I have had several Brexiters say to me.

Yes, there will be ways to regain that citizenship, but in my case its a timescale of years/decades.

Just to avoid any confusion - I am English by birth.

Cramming hundreds of millions of people of wildly differing cultures, values, economies, political and legal systems into one massive Union and expecting them to be "European" Citizens and conform to some idealistic European dream will not work and has never worked without an ever greater trend towards authoritarianism and anti-democracy. We are not America. Our histories and cultures stretch back for millenia. There is simply far too much baggage for us to unite into one country and become Citizens of Europe. The whole thing is a sham.

We have a choice to remove our British Government, and change the direction of our domestic politics. But if we oppose the decisions and policies of the EU Government? We're just one member state among 28. I don't want my democratic influence to be diluted in a population of 500 million people. What chance can we ever have to remove an EU Government?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
So you value your "European Citizenship" more than your British Citizenship?

So you value your "British Citizenship" over their Scottish Citizenship then?

I see you can't be arsed to properly read my previous comment then?

If they still vote to secede from the UK after the conclusion of BREXIT, then I will wish them well. I'll be sad to see them go, but will respect their democratic right.

Why should they wait if they want the vote sooner? What is the legal basis for making them wait until the Brexit negotiations are over? If you would respect their democratic right after Brexit then why are you so opposed to them getting to exercise their democratic right before Brexit is finished?

Because the rest of Britain have the right to try and persuade them to stay? You owe us that much at least, to just wait and see what the state of the UK is after Brexit, to see what concessions and deals we can obtain, to see how the economy is performing.

If Scotland is going to be leaving the EU anyway (and they will, at least temporarily, because the rest of Europe has said that they will have to apply for membership) then why are you opposed to just being patient and waiting till BREXIT is concluded? Hell, Scotland unanimously withdrawing from the UK could even sabotage BREXIT and severely damage our negotiating position.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Optio wrote:
Yes, why wouldn't I? Why would I want to be a citizen just of a small Island when I am currently a citizen of a continent? A citizen alongside 500million others? There is a big difference between legal citizenship and the half-assed - oh but you will still be part of Europe that I have had several Brexiters say to me.

Yes, there will be ways to regain that citizenship, but in my case its a timescale of years/decades.

Just to avoid any confusion - I am English by birth.

Cramming hundreds of millions of people of wildly differing cultures, values, economies, political and legal systems into one massive Union and expecting them to be "European" Citizens and conform to some idealistic European dream will not work and has never worked without an ever greater trend towards authoritarianism and anti-democracy. We are not America. Our histories and cultures stretch back for millenia. There is simply far too much baggage for us to unite into one country and become Citizens of Europe. The whole thing is a sham.

We have a choice to remove our British Government, and change the direction of our domestic politics. But if we oppose the decisions and policies of the EU Government? We're just one member state among 28. I don't want my democratic influence to be diluted in a population of 500 million people. What chance can we ever have to remove an EU Government?

Several things here. First off, being a European citizen of the EU never meant sacrificing your British citizenship or identity. It was complimentary, not exclusive.
Secondly, again, not that it matters now anyway, it was explained, ad nauseum that we had just as much democratic influence over EU government institutions, as we had with our own. The sad fact is the vast majority of British were unaware of this, and didn't enact their democratic rights, hence why we had silly situations of UKIP being MEPs.

Finally, The idea that the UK was powerless to act within the EU is, frankly, bollocks. We will see exactly how powerless we are in future, however, when our Euro cousins start making decisions and implementing policy to benefit their members without us.
Your democratic influence amongst those 500 million people has not been enhanced by BREXIT. Those people have not gone away, they're still there, it's just that now we will have no democratic way of engaging with them. We certainly can't vote out any EU government we don't like now, we'll just have to deal with them as is.

I think the arguments Shadow has brought up have been debated enough times to know those involved will not change their minds. I go back to my original question, how do you think we feel towards loosing our EU citizenship?

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
...Because the rest of Britain have the right to try and persuade them to stay? You owe us that much at least, to just wait and see what the state of the UK is after Brexit, to see what concessions and deals we can obtain, to see how the economy is performing.

If Scotland is going to be leaving the EU anyway (and they will, at least temporarily, because the rest of Europe has said that they will have to apply for membership) then why are you opposed to just being patient and waiting till BREXIT is concluded? Hell, Scotland unanimously withdrawing from the UK could even sabotage BREXIT and severely damage our negotiating position.

No, I DO see it and I agree they should have another referendum. AFTER Brexit is concluded.

Scotland is leaving the EU at least temporarily, whether as part of the UK in Brexit, or as a newly independent nation state that will have to apply for EU membership. Having a snap referendum and voting for independence right now will do nothing to prevent that, so what's the point? Its much better to wait and see if it will still be in their best interest.

Why can't YOU see that?

Besides, rerunning the Scottish Ind Ref in the middle of Brexit negotiations is a political impossibility. Its too expensive, too time consuming and too self destructive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Optio wrote:
I think the arguments Shadow has brought up have been debated enough times to know those involved will not change their minds. I go back to my original question, how do you think we feel towards loosing our EU citizenship?

Its irrelevant. You'll lose it either way, whether through Brexit, or temporarily as a newly Independent Scotland appying to join. You should be rational, and wait to see which way the political winds blow so you can make an informed decision. Who knows, Brexit might prove to be a success and Scots may wish to remain. If not, then you can still try again for Ind.


And earlier someone was mocking me when I made a remark about scotland throwing a tantrum and making a rash decision, and compared it to Brexit. I can't and won't speak for anyone else, but that does not in any way apply to me. My decision to vote Leave was 10 years in the making, I didn't make it on a whim. I've been thinking it over for the last decade, and the rhetoric of either side in the referendum did not sway me. In fact i barely paid attention, this thread and the previous referendum thread were by far the most significant way in which I engaged politically. I made my decision long ago.

I think you find R_squared did see your argument perfectly.You are just choosing to not register his counterargument.

I can see that, and many in Scotland will do too, however, they may be pissed off enough to go, feth you, and do it anyway.
After all they owe us nothing, and we have just fethed things up for them.
It might be difficult for the May govt to manage Brexit and a Scottish indy ref, however, it'll make life easier for the SNP. A Tory govt, distracted by negotiations is simply not going to have the time and resources to fight off the nationalists.
If I was a Scottish Nat, I'd wait until March 2017, and then come out guns blazing.