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I'm not even scottish Shadow, I have already pointed that out. I have already pointed out the fact I am losing my citizenship. It was a simple question.

 Optio wrote:
I'm not even scottish Shadow, I have already pointed that out. I have already pointed out the fact I am losing my citizenship. It was a simple question.

Then think of it as a proverbial "you". When you're arguing a!one against several people at once its hard to keep track of each individual's nationality, especislly oioin a small mobile device.

From a practical angle it makes a lot of sense for Scotland to vote for independence now and commence negotiations to join the EU while RoUk does the negotiations to get out.

?

That sounds like a chaotic mess.

Anyway what is the chance of Scottish independence during the next two years given the impossible logistics of arranging and concluding such a thing in less than two years and the far more obvious point that the PM said it is not going to happen? Nil, I would suggest.

I would suggest that it being so unlikely should almost make it the topic of seperate discussion.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
So you value your "European Citizenship" more than your British Citizenship?

My British citizenship is simply a piece of paper, it means absolutely nothing to me so, yes I do value my EU citizenship more.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

Cramming hundreds of millions of people of wildly differing cultures, values, economies, political and legal systems into one massive Union and expecting them to be "European" Citizens and conform to some idealistic European dream will not work and has never worked without an ever greater trend towards authoritarianism and anti-democracy.

Yet cramming tens of millions of people with differing cultures, values, economics, political and legal systems into one union is somehow fine?

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Having a snap referendum and voting for independence right now will do nothing to prevent that, so what's the point?

The point is that we will be readmitted as quickly as possible, what's the point in waiting for what ever 'plan' the Tories have dreamt up? Although a referendum is unlikely to be called before the general shape of the Brexit negotiations are known.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
From a practical angle it makes a lot of sense for Scotland to vote for independence now and commence negotiations to join the EU while RoUk does the negotiations to get out.

Indeed.

 notprop wrote:

Anyway what is the chance of Scottish independence during the next two years given the impossible logistics of arranging and concluding such a thing in less than two years and the far more obvious point that the PM said it is not going to happen? Nil, I would suggest.

That last referendum campaign took 18 months and cost around £10 million. As things stand Scottish Independence is all but inevitable in the long term, 'no' voters tend to be over 65 and to be blunt time is against them. The best chance of resuscitating the union is to have another referendum (with a real 'vow' this time) and another No vote. That will kill the issue for a generation. Refusing a referendum (or even worse refusing to recognise a yes result) will guarantee that Scotland will break away at the first opportunity.

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
So you value your "European Citizenship" more than your British Citizenship?

My British citizenship is simply a piece of paper, it means absolutely nothing to me so, yes I do value my EU citizenship more.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

Cramming hundreds of millions of people of wildly differing cultures, values, economies, political and legal systems into one massive Union and expecting them to be "European" Citizens and conform to some idealistic European dream will not work and has never worked without an ever greater trend towards authoritarianism and anti-democracy.

Yet cramming tens of millions of people with differing cultures, values, economics, political and legal systems into one union is somehow fine?

Yes. We have far more in common with each other than we do with continental Europeans. We've been an integrated nation state for over 300 years. We have a common language. None of that is true of the EU which has existed for...what? Just 30 yeasrs? And its already on the brink of collapse?

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Having a snap referendum and voting for independence right now will do nothing to prevent that, so what's the point?

The point is that we will be readmitted as quickly as possible, what's the point in waiting for what ever 'plan' the Tories have dreamt up? Although a referendum is unlikely to be called before the general shape of the Brexit negotiations are known.

You don't know that, its wishful thinking. There are member states like Spain with a vested interest in blocking Scottish ascension.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
And its already on the brink of collapse?

Just like the Union then?

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

There are member states like Spain with a vested interest in blocking Scottish ascension.

Yet Spain has already said that it won't block Scotland, its wishful thinking to say that Scotland won't be admitted. Its all but inevitable, especially post Brexit.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
From a practical angle it makes a lot of sense for Scotland to vote for independence now and commence negotiations to join the EU while RoUk does the negotiations to get out.

Don't current polls put support for independence at less than 50%? This is in the full knowledge that BREXIT is going to happen.

there is a reason even the SNP hasn't demanded a IndyRef right now and it's because it knows it would lose - whilst it's true that more Scottish wanted to be part of Europe (was it around 67%?) It's also clear that more value the relationship with the United Kingdom more.

Given that there doesn't even seem to be enough of a desire in Scotland to leave now then I'm not entirely sure why everyone here is so desperate to hold a referendum now that'll just end up being lost.

Frankly I supported Scotlands independence the first time round (and I'm based in England) - I truly do believe that they should have the right to choose how they are governed in exactly the same way as we did in the EU referendum, and in the same way that everyone else has under international law. That said, until it seems likely that the Scottish people would actualy vote in favour of independence then I don't see what is to be gained by holding an IndyRef - at great expense and when in the middle of Brexit - that would likely result in a vote too remain in the union.

Stranger83 wrote:
Don't current polls put support for independence at less than 50%? This is in the full knowledge that BREXIT is going to happen.

47%, although it was at around 55% immediately post the Brexit vote. This is higher than the actual Yes vote was in 2014.

If Indyref2 was called tomorrow then it would probably fail but if it was called after another 2 years of nasty Tory government, which will almost inevitable be meddling with allegedly 'devolved' laws and when the approximate or real Brexit settlement was known, which is looking increasingly likely to be a 'hard' Brexit, then its quite possible that the vote would succeed.

Nicola Sturgeon knows exactly what she is doing, which is unique in politics.

Assuming May triggers Article 50 when she says she will, the UK would be out of the EU before the 2019 European Parliament elections.

That basically gives us two options - either a summer 2018 or very early spring 2019 indyref2 campaign and, if it's a Yes, push for a transitional arrangement that would basically keep a spot open for us and our EU citizenship intact while Brexit goes on and we disentangle ourselves from the UK(an option that could be achieved with a majority vote of the 27 rather than requiring full accession, and one that's got a lot more sympathetic ears in the EU these days given the emphatic Remain vote up here), or; we hold off until 2021 and, assuming another pro-indy majority in the Scottish Parliament elections, have a quick indyref later that year and then a subsequent referendum on whether to reapply for full EU membership or try EEA/EFTA instead.

Frankly I've no idea how it would go in either case, too many variables and not enough data. On the one hand a lot of No voters did so in large part because of the strong focus on preserving EU membership Better Together used in their campaigning(and as a preemptive rebuttal - no, at that point in time it was by no means obvious or certain there was going to be an EU referendum, it was only the lukewarm commitment of one party that was then still in a coalition government with a pro-EU partner and polling for the 2015 general election was consistently in the direction of a hung parliament and either another coalition or one of the big parties ruling as a minority; that is contrasted against repeated, consistent, unequivocal promises made in BT literature and by prominent UK politicians both in BT and out of it, that the only way to preserve your EU citizenship was to vote No), but on the other hand something like 11% of Yes voters also voted for Brexit and there's presently no information on which of those two they would place greater value on if asked to choose, so the two factors could totally cancel each other out.

Similarly, support for independence has continued to grow among under 55s, but opposition to it has hardened among the over 55s hence the equivocal growth in the overall total in favour(since that figure will be filtered by turnout, which will of course be expected to be higher in older demographics).

I very much agree with Robin McAlpine that there's a lamentable lack of proper polling and demographic data in Scotland, it's hard to make anything more than very broad sweeping assumptions because we just don't have the info to peel apart the broadest demographic categories and find out what people are actually thinking.

All that said, this nonsense about it being too difficult.to do independence during or immediately following Brexit is just that. There isn't going to be any stability, any period of calm & reflection, any optimal moment to do indyref2 now England and Wales have voted to leave the EU, because after the Brexit negotiations we're going to have decades of negotations to try and put the international trade jigsaw back together and the longer we're on WTO rules the worse the economic consequences of that will be. Unpicking Scotland from rUK will be a pain in the arse now, it will be a pain in the arse in two years, and it'll be a pain in the arse for many years after Brexit as well, so hopefully we just get it over with and everyone can move on.

You know, with all the bickering going on about Scotland I really do wish that you'll leave sooner rather than later. At least for my own sanity at least.

But seriously, it's a very bad idea right now. I wouldn't even consider it due to the sensitive political situation right now. And you'll never join the EU whilst Spain is in there, they will never forgive you for the hassle you've caused them over the Catalonians.

Any chance of you fellers starting a Scottish Local Politics thread?

Clogging this one up again with the now off repeated IndyRef stuff is now beyond boring.

 welshhoppo wrote:
You know, with all the bickering going on about Scotland I really do wish that you'll leave sooner rather than later. At least for my own sanity at least.

I agree. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Scotland both here and in real life.

I'd be a hypocrite if I said it would be wrong for Scotland to not get a second chance of independence, but personally even if they vote to stay again I would want them out regardless. Because we'll only be hearing calls for yet more referendums until the SNP get their way. So I say let Scotland go be independent, try to rejoin the EU, get a currency of their own (definitely no currency union with the rest of the U.K.) and all the rest of it. And I'd prefer a solid boarder between them and England too.

 notprop wrote:
Any chance of you fellers starting a Scottish Local Politics thread?

Why would we be talking about councils?

 notprop wrote:

Clogging this one up again with the now off repeated IndyRef stuff is now beyond boring.

Considering that Scotland's future is a key component of modern British Politics it is an entirely appropriate topic for a 'UK politics' thread. Should we just be doing cyclical Corbyn bashing instead?

How about sticking to complaining about the Tories? That's all I can see in here that isn't Scottish inde related.

As for me, I'm going to return to this point about jaguar police cars I overlooked:

Herzlos wrote:
It's all down to fleet prices and re-sale values, and it usually results in the police buying inferior vehicles. BMW offer better bulk sales, which higher garuanteed sales values when they get retired (after 6 years or so).

It's a shame, I remember years ago, when MG was still on the go, that the police testers favorite car to use was the ZTT-190, but Ford undercut them on the Mondeo estates, so that's what they got.

I like that car.

But yeah that's a shame. What's that old saying about military equipment? Your gear is the one offered by the lowest bidder? I guess that applies here too. Since BMW is a bigger company they can do the better bulk deals.

I wonder if there's something we can do post Brexit to rectify it?

Well the easiest thing for the government to do would be to announce benefits for buying British made cars. Say give money towards building new plants and to help with production costs. If they started that now, but the time Brexit occurs they should be ready to start selling.


The problem is we haven't got any British Car manufactures left, even Jaguar and Lamd Rover are owned by Tata.

Tata own them sure, but they're built here and I think that's good enough. If the government initiated a plan along those lines I'm sure it would entice them to stay and play along. It's all for the best because the money used to buy them will stay in the national economy and fund local jobs. Much better than Jobseeker's Allowance I'm sure.

Personally though...I would like them to return to British control. Just for safe keeping.

Well seeing as we have given up even trying to balance the budget, I think it is a good idea. And you can build them in areas with high unemployment, because construction needs people. It's not ideal, but it is work. And then you need people to help run them. So people get jobs out of it. And it is probably better for the environment because the cars are coming from down the road instead of across Europe or from Asia.

But what do I know eh?

 Kilkrazy wrote:
From a practical angle it makes a lot of sense for Scotland to vote for independence now and commence negotiations to join the EU while RoUk does the negotiations to get out.

As a bonus, and here's the clever part, Scotland won't have to negotiate a trade deal with the rest of the UK, because if it joins the EU, then the EU and rump Britain will have negotiated a new BREXIT trade deal between them, which Scotland will slot into.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 welshhoppo wrote:
Well the easiest thing for the government to do would be to announce benefits for buying British made cars. Say give money towards building new plants and to help with production costs. If they started that now, but the time Brexit occurs they should be ready to start selling.


The problem is we haven't got any British Car manufactures left, even Jaguar and Lamd Rover are owned by Tata.

I sincerely hope that the Tories don't propose the reopening of British Leyland


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 notprop wrote:
Any chance of you fellers starting a Scottish Local Politics thread?

Clogging this one up again with the now off repeated IndyRef stuff is now beyond boring.

I might be wrong on this, and if I am, could a Mod correct me, but I'm pretty sure that this is:

a) A UK politics thread

b) Scotland is part of the UK.

Or am I wrong?

C'mon Notprop, you can troll better than that

@ welshhoppo

Quite a lot it seems.

This could apply to mini too. Mini panda cars and jaguar and land rovers for tougher work. It'll be just like old times!

If I had to propose a policy it would be this; if the police (or similar organisation) promised to buy their vehicles from a local supplier instead of from aboard, the national government will pick up the bill for it, so it doesn't come out of their budget.

Mini is owned by bmw and are basically more German than English now.


But hey, if opening a new Layland creates more jobs then I'm all for it! I'll even petition the government to build it in Scotland so you can have an industry to be proud of!

My posts are editing weird. The bit about mini disappeared.

Edit: never mind, I fixed it.

British Leyland was a bad idea at the time but now...smaller...more disciplined...maybe it could work?

Mini, Jaguar, Landrover under one banner could work. But government controlled enterprises have a poor track record in this country. Maybe a half way point could be found; it's a privately run company but the government has a controlling stake in it to safeguard the profits and protect it from hostile takeovers?

 welshhoppo wrote:
Mini is owned by bmw and are basically more German than English now.


But hey, if opening a new Layland creates more jobs then I'm all for it! I'll even petition the government to build it in Scotland so you can have an industry to be proud of!

It would make sense to rebuild Leyland. We have a Labour leader stuck in the 1970s and the Tories stuck in the 1950s.

All we need now is Derek Robinson and Jack Jones to make a come back and the Leyland dream is here again!.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 notprop wrote:
Any chance of you fellers starting a Scottish Local Politics thread?

Clogging this one up again with the now off repeated IndyRef stuff is now beyond boring.

I might be wrong on this, and if I am, could a Mod correct me, but I'm pretty sure that this is:

a) A UK politics thread

It is.

b) Scotland is part of the UK.

It is, a small part of it. More of a local region if you will.

C'mon Notprop, you can troll better than that

I am wounded sir, wounded!

I jest, but feth me even you must be bored of it by now!

Feth me London, can you keep your nose out of county council decision making?

In other words, Fracking has been given the go ahead in Lancashire, despite Lancs county council saying no and all the other people who are against it.

But it's ok for London to decide what's good for the North, who cares what happens to us plebians, we're all fething backwards country bumpkins anyway.

Can someone buy me a desk so I can pound my head into it?

Ah yes, fracking. That other contentious issue.

I think the benefits (jobs, profits, getting to tell the Saudis to feth off) are definitely worth looking into it, but I'm aware of the serious downsides. Can it be made safer?

 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:
Feth me London, can you keep your nose out of county council decision making?

In other words, Fracking has been given the go ahead in Lancashire, despite Lancs county council saying no and all the other people who are against it.

But it's ok for London to decide what's good for the North, who cares what happens to us plebians, we're all fething backwards country bumpkins anyway.

Can someone buy me a desk so I can pound my head into it?

Sajid Javid is MP for Bromsgrove, hardly London. Lets not confuse geography for Govt. or can we expect a new LancsIndyRef1 demand?

I suspect that this will now just move to the Supreme Court anyway.

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Having a snap referendum and voting for independence right now will do nothing to prevent that, so what's the point?

The point is that we will be readmitted as quickly as possible, what's the point in waiting for what ever 'plan' the Tories have dreamt up? Although a referendum is unlikely to be called before the general shape of the Brexit negotiations are known.

Oh really. Spain still has its Veto and still has internal problems. A succession followed by successful integration into Europe would take time even under the best circumstances. Scotland has no status in Europe, Scottish MEP's do so through the UK.

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
From a practical angle it makes a lot of sense for Scotland to vote for independence now and commence negotiations to join the EU while RoUk does the negotiations to get out.

Indeed.

There is a strict two year timetable for Brexit. Joining the EU takes a lot longer.

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

That last referendum campaign took 18 months and cost around £10 million. As things stand Scottish Independence is all but inevitable in the long term, 'no' voters tend to be over 65 and to be blunt time is against them. The best chance of resuscitating the union is to have another referendum (with a real 'vow' this time) and another No vote. That will kill the issue for a generation. Refusing a referendum (or even worse refusing to recognise a yes result) will guarantee that Scotland will break away at the first opportunity.

The best time to try is certainly now. Scotland is running low on oil revenue and will be a whole lot poorer outside of one union or the other after that, support for independence is currently high but is not guaranteed to perpetuate, and if there are uncertain noises about joining the EU from the EU27 anything could happen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 notprop wrote:

 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:
Feth me London, can you keep your nose out of county council decision making?

In other words, Fracking has been given the go ahead in Lancashire, despite Lancs county council saying no and all the other people who are against it.

But it's ok for London to decide what's good for the North, who cares what happens to us plebians, we're all fething backwards country bumpkins anyway.

Can someone buy me a desk so I can pound my head into it?

Sajid Javid is MP for Bromsgrove, hardly London. Lets not confuse geography for Govt. or can we expect a new LancsIndyRef1 demand?

I suspect that this will now just move to the Supreme Court anyway.

Lancs CC will take this for judicial review, which in all likelihood will rule that planning is a decision under the purview of the local authorities not Westminster.

 notprop wrote:

 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:
Feth me London, can you keep your nose out of county council decision making?

In other words, Fracking has been given the go ahead in Lancashire, despite Lancs county council saying no and all the other people who are against it.

But it's ok for London to decide what's good for the North, who cares what happens to us plebians, we're all fething backwards country bumpkins anyway.

Can someone buy me a desk so I can pound my head into it?

Sajid Javid is MP for Bromsgrove, hardly London. Lets not confuse geography for Govt. or can we expect a new LancsIndyRef1 demand?

I suspect that this will now just move to the Supreme Court anyway.

I'm personally hoping for a return to the rule of Viking overlords.

 Orlanth wrote:
Scotland has no status in Europe, Scottish MEP's do so through the UK.

There is a tiny problem with that....

The noises from the EU are very positive towards Scotland's admittance to the EU, the only issues are really around exactly how Scotland joins