UK Politics

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**r_squared**

Future War Cultist wrote:
Ashers Bakery have lost their appeal to overturn charges of discrimination relating to a cake

I need to find out the full details of this case again before I can properly comment, but I'm worried that we're arriving at a situation where you can be coerced by law into going against your deepest held beliefs.

I've always said that it isn't the states right to tell anyone how to think. For me this works both ways; on the one hand we should equal rights for same sex couples because it's not the states place to tell two consenting adults how to live their lives, but at the same time people who don't agree with this should be free to express themselves without prosecution (so long as they don't resort to or advocate violence) because it's not the states place to tell people how to think.

I think this deserves it's own thread, it not UK politics, it's UK law, LGBT issues and religion.

**A Town Called Malus**

r_squared wrote:
...it's UK law, LGBT issues and religion.

A winning combination for the Dakka OT section which I'm sure will go very well

**Breotan**

I just saw a report last night that the banking industry is gearing up to move all their headquarters out of the UK. Apparently EU laws only allow certain transactions if you have your headquarters in a EU member nation. This is a big deal for banks. It's also a big deal for the UK because banking is the largest service industry and a net export. The report I saw asserted that there would be a significant impact on the UK economy should banks relocate in large scale.

**wuestenfux**

Breotan wrote:
I just saw a report last night that the banking industry is gearing up to move all their headquarters out of the UK. Apparently EU laws only allow certain transactions if you have your headquarters in a EU member nation. This is a big deal for banks. It's also a big deal for the UK because banking is the largest service industry and a net export. The report I saw asserted that there would be a significant impact on the UK economy should banks relocate in large scale.

True. The Brexiteers like Johnson knew it. ''Gain back control'' was their main argument.

**Herzlos**

Breotan wrote:
I just saw a report last night that the banking industry is gearing up to move all their headquarters out of the UK. Apparently EU laws only allow certain transactions if you have your headquarters in a EU member nation. This is a big deal for banks. It's also a big deal for the UK because banking is the largest service industry and a net export. The report I saw asserted that there would be a significant impact on the UK economy should banks relocate in large scale.

I don't have the reference to hand but banking is responsible for about 9% of the economy. As much as we all hate bankers we kind of need them to keep the lights on.

**Mr. Burning**

Breotan wrote:
I just saw a report last night that the banking industry is gearing up to move all their headquarters out of the UK. Apparently EU laws only allow certain transactions if you have your headquarters in a EU member nation. This is a big deal for banks. It's also a big deal for the UK because banking is the largest service industry and a net export. The report I saw asserted that there would be a significant impact on the UK economy should banks relocate in large scale.

Apparently talks will be going on regarding the UK continuing payments to the EU in order to keep access to Euro clearing functions.

Should major financial companies leave the UK it'll significantly harm our economy. We are in no position to restructure our service sectors in such a short space of time. Frankly the Sourth East will probably be decimated the most and our current London centric view will see the fallout radiate to other regions.

The other regions of the UK and sensible heads have been talking for years about diversifying our economy and breaking the narrow view of London being our powerhouse, some strides have been made but maybe there will now be some concerted efforts to actually do something to remove over reliance on one service sector.

**r_squared**

wuestenfux wrote:
Breotan wrote:
I just saw a report last night that the banking industry is gearing up to move all their headquarters out of the UK. Apparently EU laws only allow certain transactions if you have your headquarters in a EU member nation. This is a big deal for banks. It's also a big deal for the UK because banking is the largest service industry and a net export. The report I saw asserted that there would be a significant impact on the UK economy should banks relocate in large scale.

True. The Brexiteers like Johnson knew it. ''Gain back control'' was their main argument.

I believe "passporting" is the buzzword used to describe the current way the banking industry works. Theresa May has promised that it will have a top priority in the negotiations, I suppose it will have to be pretty prominent, it's our major industry, and everyone in the EU knows it.
So much for playing our cards close to our chest.

Basically, at the moment, there are many loud commentators demanding a hard Brexit, and damn the consequences. I'm not convinced that anyone understands exactly what they will mean, but a hard Brexit is likely to mean losing much of the banking sector, and it's revenue.

I guess we'll find out.

**Herzlos**

We have no cards to keep close to our chest, beyond the fact we've got no idea what we're doing.

**Kilkrazy**

Breotan wrote:
I just saw a report last night that the banking industry is gearing up to move all their headquarters out of the UK. Apparently EU laws only allow certain transactions if you have your headquarters in a EU member nation. This is a big deal for banks. It's also a big deal for the UK because banking is the largest service industry and a net export. The report I saw asserted that there would be a significant impact on the UK economy should banks relocate in large scale.

Financial services accounts for 16% of UK GDP, and is significantly dependant on "passporting" to operate across the EU not just in terms of servicing EU companies but more importantly in terms of servicing non-EU companies seeking access to the EU. All this of course will be lost due to Brexit, since the UK will be outside the EU.

There is an argument that the UK is too dependant on financial services compared to other industries and this should be addressed. I have sympathy with that point of view, however to address it by destabilising the financial services industry over a year or two is probably not the best way to go about things.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Future War Cultist wrote:
Ashers Bakery have lost their appeal to overturn charges of discrimination relating to a cake

I need to find out the full details of this case again before I can properly comment, but I'm worried that we're arriving at a situation where you can be coerced by law into going against your deepest held beliefs.

I've always said that it isn't the states right to tell anyone how to think. For me this works both ways; on the one hand we should equal rights for same sex couples because it's not the states place to tell two consenting adults how to live their lives, but at the same time people who don't agree with this should be free to express themselves without prosecution (so long as they don't resort to or advocate violence) because it's not the states place to tell people how to think.

It is a case with ramifications for the operation of businesses and the interplay with personal beliefs of staff, so it is well worth considering at length..

I think the key point is that when bakers bake a cake they are working on behalf of a client, not themselves.

The client's personal beliefs are not the baker's personal beliefs. if the client wants a straight cake, or a gay cake, or a Man United cake, the fact that the baker is anti-straight, or anti-gay or anti-Man Utd does not figure in the implication of baking if the cake. The cake is a statement of the client's beliefs, not the baker's.

**Vaktathi**

It looks like Wallonia is going to kill CETA on its own at this point.

If this sets a precedent, I'd expect Brexit talks to be...strenuous. Not the greatest of signs.

**Kilkrazy**

We'll see. I think the deal can be put on ice for a few weeks to get things arranged to everyone's satisfaction.

The deadline is completely artificial, and has no practical significance.

**Future War Cultist**

@ Kilkrazy

That is one way to look at it sure, but should the bakers still not reserve the right to decline the job if it really doesn't sit well with them?

Let's turn this around on its head; should a gay bakery be expected to bake a cake for a religious group with a message on it that says same sex marriage is wrong? The problem as I can currently see it is this hypothetical bakery will be forced by law to bake a cake with that message on it regardless of what they think of the matter. They'll be forced by law to go against their deepest beliefs and I don't think that's right.

Unless a judge decides that actually yes they can refuse that particular client, in which case the law is then saying that gay rights trump religious freedoms. A gay bakery will have the right to refuse orders with messages on them that they don't agree with but a Christian bakery in the exact same situation will not. And that's not equallity before the law. Which for me is why equality legislation can be such a paradox at times.

Personally I always think it's better to let people decide for themselves. If Ashers don't want to bake a cake with that message on it then let them, and let them also deal with the consequences via their reputation. If you don't like Ashers stance, boycott them. It's what I do! I ignore their shops and go straight to Greggs.

I'm not a lawyer so I don't know if that's a compelling argument or not but it's how I feel on the matter.

**Howard A Treesong**

What reasons can you safely give for not baking a cake then? If you're a bit overworked at the moment and get a request in with a pro-gay message you'd better look out how you explain reasons for turning the work down, right? Also make very sure you don't turn down work from an activist.

I can't quite shake the suspicion that the gay rights activist that placed the order had a sneaking suspicion it might be met with resistance and the bakers walked headlong into it with all their religious indignation. I really hope that isn't the case and it was done in genuinely good faith.

**tneva82**

r_squared wrote:
I believe "passporting" is the buzzword used to describe the current way the banking industry works. Theresa May has promised that it will have a top priority in the negotiations, I suppose it will have to be pretty prominent, it's our major industry, and everyone in the EU knows it.
So much for playing our cards close to our chest.

Basically, at the moment, there are many loud commentators demanding a hard Brexit, and damn the consequences. I'm not convinced that anyone understands exactly what they will mean, but a hard Brexit is likely to mean losing much of the banking sector, and it's revenue.

I guess we'll find out.

Going to be interesting whether EU needs UK more or UK needs single market and banking industry more. Going to largely decide how deals will go. But until the article 50 is invoked nobody really knows because EU won't talk about terms one bit before it's invoked.

**Herzlos**

Uk needs eu more, definitely. The complicating issue is that the eu does need the uk too; if we hit a bad recession we could really hurt Europe.

**tneva82**

Herzlos wrote:
Uk needs eu more, definitely. The complicating issue is that the eu does need the uk too; if we hit a bad recession we could really hurt Europe.

That gives potential for good MAD situation when UK tries to bluff, EU decides to call the bluff and UK decides to then go on with it to save face.

**reds8n**

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37755137

The pound's recent devaluation after June's Brexit vote has already led to some price rises, and model railways are one business feeling the effects.
Early in October, the leading manufacturer Hornby told retailers that wholesale prices for many of its trains would rise by an average of 10%.
The company has been making its models in China for more than 20 years.
"We have put prices up, but it's the first time in two and a half years," said a Hornby spokesman.
Thanks to manufacturing abroad, the firm's international trading is denominated in US dollars, so sterling's 17% devaluation against the US currency since 23 June means that UK prices must inevitably rise.
"It reflects higher input costs as we source in US dollars," the spokesman explained.
"But it's part of a package of changes to our trading terms with independent retailers, which will help them in other respects," he added.
Increased costs
Similarly, the small Welsh model train manufacturer Dapol has warned that the fall in the pound has affected the company "severely" and that the costs of all its imported products have risen between 10% and 20% since 23 June.
"We were hoping that the situation would stabilise and that the pound would regain some of its fallen value," said Dapol managing director Joel Bright.
"It is now clear that this is not going to be the case and perhaps a weaker pound is here for the longer term. As a consequence, we now need to recoup these increased costs from imported goods."
Another big model train manufacturer is Bachmann, now owned by a Chinese firm which makes the models in that country, and though it has not revealed its hand it will find it hard to resist the effect of the pound's devaluation.

Model trains are far more detailed and sophisticated than was once the case.
If you want your model engine to come with digital control and authentic sound effects, you can easily pay more than £300 per loco.
The hobby is especially popular in Germany, whose model firms generally export to the UK via wholesalers such as Golden Valley Hobbies in Herefordshire.
There, Fiona Mulhall says she has little control over the higher prices already being charged by manufacturers such as Busch and Kibri.
"You either put prices up or cut your margin - we have done a combination of both," she says.
"Customers are understanding [and] seem to be swallowing it for the moment".
Some smaller retailers are less confident.
Specialist continental model seller Neil Scoggins runs Scograil in Ipswich.
Not essential
He points out that many customers have not yet noticed what is happening.
That is because the higher prices will only filter through next year, once newer and more expensive stock replaces older items still on the shelves.
"Model trains are not an essential item and people buy wisely and vote with their feet," he warns.
"If we sell at a model exhibition people already pick up items, say they are too expensive and put them down; we might take £500 in a day instead of £1,000 before.
"A wagon set for £80 may now sell for £105 which will be just too expensive, so I think people won't buy so much if prices go up further" he adds.
The days when every high street had a model shop are long gone, and much of the trade's sales now take place via post and the internet.
One of the biggest mail order retailers, known dismissively in some quarters as "box shifters", is Rails of Sheffield.
'UK attractive'
There, John Barber says the weakness of the pound means that sales to customers abroad are buoyant.
"The fall in the pound has been enough to tip the balance for foreign buyers, the UK for them looks very attractive, and they don't have to pay VAT either if they are from outside the EU" he says.
"We are doing a lot of overseas sales to America, Australia, Germany, Austria and Switzerland".
For better or worse, the rise in model train prices will not have any direct effect on the UK's general rate of inflation.
Toy trains are not included in the shopping basket of 800 goods and services which are sampled every month by the Office for National Statistics (ONS) to construct the consumer prices index.
But plenty of other imported items are expected to push up the prices index in the coming year.

... TBf I'd be a bit worried if model trains included in the ONS "shopping basket".

.... If GW ever do release plastic SoB then there's every chance they'll have to be counted if only due to volume sold

**notprop**

You all know that the City of London and its financial markets existed long before we joined the Common Market right?

Passporting into the EU only represents a limited aspect of this. Also so what if they move their HQ's, their working offices will remain - you can not practically move such things without a great deal of difficulty and disruption. Take RBS for example, HQ'd in Edinburgh; they seem to employ most of the South East!

Much like the business backed lawyering that has been going on since before the Brexit vote this latest announcement is purely another attempt by certain businesses to influence negotiations and the final objectives of the British Govt. It was after all timed impeccably with the PM's latest round of meetings.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
In other news, the Ed Stone is back!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37760562

The gift that keeps on giving.

**r_squared**

notprop wrote:
You all know that the City of London and its financial markets existed long before we joined the Common Market right?

Passporting into the EU only represents a limited aspect of this. Also so what if they move their HQ's, their working offices will remain - you can not practically move such things without a great deal of difficulty and disruption. Take RBS for example, HQ'd in Edinburgh; they seem to employ most of the South East!

Much like the business backed lawyering that has been going on since before the Brexit vote this latest announcement is purely another attempt by certain businesses to influence negotiations and the final objectives of the British Govt. It was after all timed impeccably with the PM's latest round of meetings.

You are aware that the world has moved on since the 50s right?

Do you not think it's reasonable that business represent their interests, especially when others, like Rupert Murdoch, are able to flap their gums endlessly about all sorts of rubbish via his medit empire.
The reason you object is because you are opposed to any resistance to BREXIT. Well that's tough gak I'm afraid, there's a lot of people and organisations that don't share your political ideas or enthusiasm for political and financial self harm.
I guess you'll just have to get used to hearing it, after all we have to put up with right wing media bs on a daily basis. Why do you not object to the Sun, Express and Daily Mail sticking their lowbrow oar in?

**reds8n**

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/09/07/voting-intention-conservative-lead-11-points/

I think perhaps that's a wee bit unfair to Mr Farron......

.. that said apart from an average-- no shame there TBF -- showing when on HIGNFY I can't really recall him/his party actually doing much....?

**Future War Cultist**

@ Howard A Treesong

I still haven't managed to check all the facts around the case but I sincerely hope that wasn't the case. If it was then I'm sorry but to me the activist who placed the order, Gareth Lee, would be a bully. But I'll assume that everything was done in good faith until I see proof otherwise.

@ notprop

Yes, you're right. If they have to move their head offices then so be it but the working offices will stay put. And they were happy to work here before we where in the EU and I think they'll still be happy to work here after we leave.

And that Ed Stone is just hilarious. I wish I was in on the meeting that green lighted it.

**notprop**

r_squared wrote:
notprop wrote:
You all know that the City of London and its financial markets existed long before we joined the Common Market right?

Passporting into the EU only represents a limited aspect of this. Also so what if they move their HQ's, their working offices will remain - you can not practically move such things without a great deal of difficulty and disruption. Take RBS for example, HQ'd in Edinburgh; they seem to employ most of the South East!

Much like the business backed lawyering that has been going on since before the Brexit vote this latest announcement is purely another attempt by certain businesses to influence negotiations and the final objectives of the British Govt. It was after all timed impeccably with the PM's latest round of meetings.

You are aware that the world has moved on since the 50s right?

Do you not think it's reasonable that business represent their interests, especially when others, like Rupert Murdoch, are able to flap their gums endlessly about all sorts of rubbish via his medit empire.
The reason you object is because you are opposed to any resistance to BREXIT. Well that's tough gak I'm afraid, there's a lot of people and organisations that don't share your political ideas or enthusiasm for political and financial self harm.
I guess you'll just have to get used to hearing it, after all we have to put up with right wing media bs on a daily basis. Why do you not object to the Sun, Express and Daily Mail sticking their lowbrow oar in?

Yeah, I think your being a bit shrill.

I don't object to anyone opposing anything. I was just point out their obvious cynical self interest as opposed to the interest od British people. They don't back one side or the other because it will see Britons better off, they will decide to move or stay for costs and risks to them only. They have made their statement and might possibly change their POV in 2 months because they decide the risk is less than the cost of changing the letter head on their stationary.

You might have time for Redtop papers but personally I've never bothered with them. Please try not to make such gross generalisations of who your imagined enemy is.

**Compel**

Future War Cultist wrote:
@ Kilkrazy

That is one way to look at it sure, but should the bakers still not reserve the right to decline the job if it really doesn't sit well with them?

Let's turn this around on its head; should a gay bakery be expected to bake a cake for a religious group with a message on it that says same sex marriage is wrong? The problem as I can currently see it is this hypothetical bakery will be forced by law to bake a cake with that message on it regardless of what they think of the matter. They'll be forced by law to go against their deepest beliefs and I don't think that's right. [/URL]

Basically, as I understand it (I am not a lawyer), the The Equality Act is what says so.

The United Kingdom as a country and Government has decided that the minimum requirements and lines drawn civic behaviour in this country should adhere to this act. If you disagree this, please do campaign to get this law changed, but still, adhere to these standards until such a point the law has changed.

And the United Kingdom has decided, you can not discriminate (eg refuse an aspect of service) against people on the basis of sexuality, gender, race, age, disability or, yes indeed, their religious views.

Now, in my personal belief, I think that is a rather good and fair list. It may be expanded at some point but for now fair enough.

As per your example, ultimately I would say a person's personal beliefs don't matter - Some people are jerks and some jerks run businesseses. After all "No blacks, no dogs, no Irish" wasn't THAT long ago. It's society (as incarnated via the Government) that decides. If there is somehow some hypothetical situation where the Equality Act disagrees with itself, then it also feels Right and Proper that the courts would decide.

**notprop**

Future War Cultist wrote:
...And that Ed Stone is just hilarious. I wish I was in on the meeting that green lighted it.

No you don't, you would have gotten the sack shortly after.

**tneva82**

notprop wrote:
I don't object to anyone opposing anything. I was just point out their obvious cynical self interest as opposed to the interest od British people

Ah so British people can be selfish and only care about themselves but companies can't do the same?

Newsflash: Everybody are focused on self interest.

Brits decided for Brexit thinking it's good for _them_ regadless of what happens to others. You expect companies in UK don't do same kind of decisions? That's funny.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

For years, we bought into the idea that American politics was bigger, better, and more whackier.

But did they have Ed Miliband's tombstone or Nigel Farage sailing up the Thames with a fleet of boats?

Britain is where the action is.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:
notprop wrote:
I don't object to anyone opposing anything. I was just point out their obvious cynical self interest as opposed to the interest od British people

Ah so British people can be selfish and only care about themselves but companies can't do the same?

Newsflash: Everybody are focused on self interest.

Brits decided for Brexit thinking it's good for _them_ regadless of what happens to others. You expect companies in UK don't do same kind of decisions? That's funny.

I don't think Britain trades that much with Finland, but fear not, Britain's finest trade ministers and negotiaters will be arriving in Finland in the near future

I'm sure Finland will love that

Automatically Appended Next Post:

notprop wrote:
Future War Cultist wrote:
...And that Ed Stone is just hilarious. I wish I was in on the meeting that green lighted it.

No you don't, you would have gotten the sack shortly after.

And then made a boat load of cash by rushing out a political book about it

Automatically Appended Next Post:

reds8n wrote:
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/09/07/voting-intention-conservative-lead-11-points/

I think perhaps that's a wee bit unfair to Mr Farron......

.. that said apart from an average-- no shame there TBF -- showing when on HIGNFY I can't really recall him/his party actually doing much....?

I can't really recall him/his party actually doing much..

And this is the first time you've noticed this? How old are you?

They're Lib Dems, they haven't done anything for 100 years!!

**reds8n**

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37760187

"Heathrow chosen for expansion with third runway"

.. so Bojo said he'd oppose this, as did Zac Goldsmith.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/boris-johnson-prepared-lie-down-front-bulldozers-stop-construction-third-runway-heathrow-1501004

" Boris Johnson prepared to lie down 'in front of bulldozers' to stop construction of third runway at Heathrow"

We sell tickets to that -- special extra expensive ones allow one to actually drive the bulldozers.

Pay for the whole of Brexit in 1 afternoon

**notprop**

tneva82 wrote:
notprop wrote:
I don't object to anyone opposing anything. I was just point out their obvious cynical self interest as opposed to the interest od British people

Ah so British people can be selfish and only care about themselves but companies can't do the same?

Newsflash: Everybody are focused on self interest.

Brits decided for Brexit thinking it's good for _them_ regadless of what happens to others. You expect companies in UK don't do same kind of decisions? That's funny.

Newsflash: Europhile with hurt feelings of rejection misunderstands rather simple post.

The British public decided and are now debating the best way forward on what will achieve the best out come.

Companies and not necessarily UK ones are trying to influence the process in a way that would be in their best interests but not necessarily in the best interest of their British employees/UK public.

As I say these are cynical overtures, more than likely driven but protecting short term profits and turnover using threats and by extension coercion.

I work for a big company but I don't expect it to interfere with my life outside or work nor the way the country is governed.

**r_squared**

Newsflash, that big company you work for exists inside this society.
If it thinks the actions of that society are going to harm the company it is likely it will do something to protect that. Could be anything from communicating to government, national or local, layoffs, or restructuring and re-organisation. I imagine they might try talking first, before doing anything else.
If, for example the government turned around tomorrow and brought in measure or legislation that was potentially harmful or risky, or costly to the building industry how do you think they would react?
I think you'd be naive to suggest they wouldn't at least try and lobby government to protect their industry, business' and employees.
Suggesting that that is somehow selfish is a bit much tbh.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

r_squared wrote:
Newsflash, that big company you work for exists inside this society.
If it thinks the actions of that society are going to harm the company it is likely it will do something to protect that. Could be anything from communicating to government, national or local, layoffs, or restructuring and re-organisation. I imagine they might try talking first, before doing anything else.
If, for example the government turned around tomorrow and brought in measure or legislation that was potentially harmful or risky, or costly to the building industry how do you think they would react?
I think you'd be naive to suggest they wouldn't at least try and lobby government to protect their industry, business' and employees.
Suggesting that that is somehow selfish is a bit much tbh.

There has to be a balance between legitimate concerns from business, and business laying down the law to government...

And on another point which is unrelated toy your comment, I can't believe that it's taken 13 years for the Heathrow expansion to get the nod.

Whether or not you're pro or anti third runway, 13 years is a damning indictment of how slowly things get done, and we're going to have to up our game post-Brexit.