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....A YouGov survey published last month revealed that Brits who voted Leave in the June referendum believed striking a deal with Australia should be Britain's number one priority when it comes to post-Brexit trade deals.

Why? I genuinely don't understand why Australia is number 1? What are we trading that's more vital than negotiating with say China, The US, or even the EU?

Senior members of the Australian administration hope any post-Brexit deal with Britain will include permission for Australian financial service companies to expand to the UK, according to The Times, plus privileged access to labour markets for Australian workers, which, ironically, would mean more immigration to the UK....

I think they'll be out of luck with this one. Free movement of people to secure favourable trade agreements is very much frowned upon by certain member of the country and govt. Lets be honest, we have enough of our own bar workers, and aging bearded paedophiles.

some better news however :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37786467

The UK economy grew faster than expected in the three months after the Brexit vote, official figures have indicated.
The economy expanded by 0.5% in the July-to-September period, according to the Office for National Statistics.
That was slower than the 0.7% rate in the previous quarter, but stronger than analysts' estimates of about 0.3%.
"There is little evidence of a pronounced effect in the immediate aftermath of the vote," the ONS said.
The economy was boosted by a strong performance from the services sector, which grew by 0.8% in the quarter.
Welcoming the figures, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Phillip Hammond said: "The fundamentals of the UK economy are strong and today's data show that the economy is resilient."
Transport, storage and communication were the strongest performing service industries.
ONS chief economist Jo Grice said "A strong performance in the dominant services industries continued to offset further falls in construction, while manufacturing continued to be broadly flat."
This is the first estimate of economic growth for the period, using less than half the data that will be used for the final estimate.

Analysis: Jonty Bloom, business correspondent
The economy has slowed slightly but by nothing like as much as feared and the Office for National Statistics says that "the pattern of growth continues to be broadly unaffected following the EU referendum".
That pattern is, however, a rather unbalanced one. The only sector of the economy that continued to grow was services, up by 0.8%; agriculture, manufacturing production and construction all shrank.
Brexit supporters will take these figures as a sign that warnings about the economic costs of voting to leave the EU were nothing more than scaremongering. Remain supporters will argue that only prompt action by the Bank of England saved the economy and that worse is to come.

Beat me to it.

Economy holding its own, Nissan promising to build cars, and Forgeworld models flying off the shelves.

Crisis? What crisis?

Let the good times roll

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Beat me to it.

Economy holding its own, Nissan promising to build cars, and Forgeworld models flying off the shelves.

Crisis? What crisis?

Let the good times roll

Brexit hasnt happened yet though. Let's see how it goes when access to single market goes away. Or banks don't have access they have been enjoying so far.

tneva82 wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Beat me to it.

Economy holding its own, Nissan promising to build cars, and Forgeworld models flying off the shelves.

Crisis? What crisis?

Let the good times roll

Brexit hasnt happened yet though. Let's see how it goes when access to single market goes away. Or banks don't have access they have been enjoying so far.

I know banks are important to the economy, but my opinion of banks and bankers is so low, I'll happily drive them to the airport if they want to leave.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Beat me to it.

Economy holding its own, Nissan promising to build cars, and Forgeworld models flying off the shelves.

Crisis? What crisis?

Let the good times roll

Brexit hasnt happened yet though. Let's see how it goes when access to single market goes away. Or banks don't have access they have been enjoying so far.

I know banks are important to the economy, but my opinion of banks and bankers is so low, I'll happily drive them to the airport if they want to leave.

What, down the M25? You must be committed. I'd recommend taking them down on August Bank Holiday.

 welshhoppo wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Beat me to it.

Economy holding its own, Nissan promising to build cars, and Forgeworld models flying off the shelves.

Crisis? What crisis?

Let the good times roll

Brexit hasnt happened yet though. Let's see how it goes when access to single market goes away. Or banks don't have access they have been enjoying so far.

I know banks are important to the economy, but my opinion of banks and bankers is so low, I'll happily drive them to the airport if they want to leave.

What, down the M25? You must be committed. I'd recommend taking them down on August Bank Holiday.

Don't think lawyers haven't escaped my wrath, either! Once the bankers are gone you lot will be next to get the boot!

Bloody lawyers!

https://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/article159039251/Wenn-du-mit-den-Kindern-raus-gehst-sprich-kein-Deutsch.html?wtrid=socialmedia.socialflow....socialflow_twitter


my country, in 2016


https://twitter.com/NewsThingRT/status/789927321612406785


...

err..

my country, in 2016

Nissan is staying in the uk and agreeing to build two of their models here now. Now if we lose access to the single market, we can offset the extra costs to Nissan with the duty we'll be charging on eu imports. We import more than we export. That's win win, because people will either continue to buy eu imports which will raise lots of income from the tariffs, or they'll decide to buy (cheaper?) homemade cars which will still raise money for the treasury. Either way, the Nissan factory stays in operation here and provides local jobs.

 reds8n wrote:
https://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/article159039251/Wenn-du-mit-den-Kindern-raus-gehst-sprich-kein-Deutsch.html?wtrid=socialmedia.socialflow....socialflow_twitter


my country, in 2016


https://twitter.com/NewsThingRT/status/789927321612406785


...

err..

my country, in 2016

I thought there was a court order to stop Red Ken from appearing on TV?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Nissan is staying in the uk and agreeing to build two of their models here now. Now if we lose access to the single market, we can offset the extra costs to Nissan with the duty we'll be charging on eu imports. We import more than we export. That's win win, because people will either continue to buy eu imports which will raise lots of income from the tariffs, or they'll decide to buy (cheaper?) homemade cars which will still raise money for the treasury. Either way, the Nissan factory stays in operation here and provides local jobs.

It's good news to an extent, but what deal did May offer Nissan?

As a taxpayer, I have the right to know!

@ DIKLT

I'm not sure what her deal was but if it convinces them to stay I'm happy. To paraphrase an old saying, cars not dole.

What I find strange is this; there are people who want to nationalise things for the good of the nation. I understand that of course. This example is kinda, sorta like that yet they have a problem with it because a, it undermines their argument that Brexit will be a complete disaster and b, it's the Tories so it's automatically bad.

 r_squared wrote:

....A YouGov survey published last month revealed that Brits who voted Leave in the June referendum believed striking a deal with Australia should be Britain's number one priority when it comes to post-Brexit trade deals.

Why? I genuinely don't understand why Australia is number 1? What are we trading that's more vital than negotiating with say China, The US, or even the EU?

Because Australia and the UK are best mates and the process will be relatively easy and painless

So the press can put out "see we told you it was going to be easy" headlines.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
@ DIKLT

I'm not sure what her deal was but if it convinces them to stay I'm happy. To paraphrase an old saying, cars not dole.

What I find strange is this; there are people who want to nationalise things for the good of the nation. I understand that of course. This example is kinda, sorta like that yet they have a problem with it because a, it undermines their argument that Brexit will be a complete disaster and b, it's the Tories so it's automatically bad.

Not really the same at all. For one, a nationalised industry is owned by the taxpayer,and we can see exactly what it's costing is and what we get back. We haven't got a clue what's been promised here at the moment.
It doesn't undermine the idea that Brexit is bad, as ithe shows that the government is having to intervene in a private, non-essential, foreign owned business in order to secure jobs with no transparency and no idea whats going.
Besides, it not that it's bad because it's the Tories, it's bad because they are hypocritical if they have to "nationalise", or rather "bribe" a company in order to prove that their current ideas aren't complete garbage.
It's bad enough that the tax payer is already subsidising a foreign nation's energy company, and privatised rail networks, which we used to own, and also had to chuck huge wedges of cash at banks to stop them obliterating our economy, but now we're potentially having to bribe a foreign company just so the Tories can save face.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
...and in other news, the EU-Canada deal is done,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37788882

Apparently there was a requiremental for some "clarifications" to satisfy Walloonia and the treaty has not been changed.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Beat me to it.

Economy holding its own, Nissan promising to build cars, and Forgeworld models flying off the shelves.

Crisis? What crisis?

Let the good times roll

Brexit needs to boost the economy to be a success, not merely hold even.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Beat me to it.

Economy holding its own, Nissan promising to build cars, and Forgeworld models flying off the shelves.

Crisis? What crisis?

Let the good times roll

Brexit needs to boost the economy to be a success, not merely hold even.

Why?

Things holding steady, but ensuring more self-determination in your country gotta be determined as a success.

 whembly wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Beat me to it.

Economy holding its own, Nissan promising to build cars, and Forgeworld models flying off the shelves.

Crisis? What crisis?

Let the good times roll

Brexit needs to boost the economy to be a success, not merely hold even.

Why?

Things holding steady, but ensuring more self-determination in your country gotta be determined as a success.

That's exactly why I voted to leave - I wanted Democracy back.

In saying that, even if we had voted to stay in the EU, the economy would still have structural problems, recession would still be a worry, and our debt and other problems would still have to be tackled.

We had a major manufacturing base at one time, but we ditched that in favour banking, finance, and creating money out of thin air!

We will need to get that up and running again.

I told anybody that would listen that BREXIT wouldn't be easy, but one plus is that it will force our government to take a long hard look at the economy. They will need ideas, they will need to be creative, and they will need to be brave.

In short, they're going to start having to earn their money again!

PS keep buying Forgeworld. Spend the kids' college fund if you have too - we need to boost our balance of payments!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Beat me to it.

Economy holding its own, Nissan promising to build cars, and Forgeworld models flying off the shelves.

Crisis? What crisis?

Let the good times roll

Brexit needs to boost the economy to be a success, not merely hold even.

I'm not saying that these are a return to the boom years of Blair, when banks were practically throwing money at us, but nor is it as bad as many were predicting.

Hell, we're supposed to be fighting WW3 by now, according to Cameron.

 whembly wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Beat me to it.

Economy holding its own, Nissan promising to build cars, and Forgeworld models flying off the shelves.

Crisis? What crisis?

Let the good times roll

Brexit needs to boost the economy to be a success, not merely hold even.

Why?

Things holding steady, but ensuring more self-determination in your country gotta be determined as a success.

We've yet to see exactly what form the self-determination will take, and whether the idea is worth the potential economic cost. The modern world means that a single country doesn't really have much in the way of "self-determination", especially when compared to the financial and political muscle of other nations.
Besides, things are holding steady at the moment because nothing has really changed apart from the vote. The status quo is in force, and will be for some time to come. We won't have any real idea what will occur until after triggering article 50, then as we negotiate over the following "2 years", and then as we re-negotiate our trade deals with the rest of the world, and start to change current legislation to suit ourselves.
I think most people who voted out are thinking in terms of any damage only being inflicted on them, and only for a couple of years. However, trade negotiations are going to take more than that to sort out, I personally don't think we'll be settled and on an even keel for at least a decade.
It could even be longer, the EU has taken a major blow by us voting to leave, and some Leavers I have spoken to think this is great, that the EU fracturing and being destroyed is a good thing. However I have argued that the fracturing of one giant trading partner into 27 competing, squabbling dispirate entities and the resulting financial chaos that would erupt is a sobering, and unhappy thought.

 whembly wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Beat me to it.

Economy holding its own, Nissan promising to build cars, and Forgeworld models flying off the shelves.

Crisis? What crisis?

Let the good times roll

Brexit needs to boost the economy to be a success, not merely hold even.

Why?

Things holding steady, but ensuring more self-determination in your country gotta be determined as a success.

Why?

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Beat me to it.

Economy holding its own, Nissan promising to build cars, and Forgeworld models flying off the shelves.

Crisis? What crisis?

Let the good times roll

Brexit needs to boost the economy to be a success, not merely hold even.

Why?

Things holding steady, but ensuring more self-determination in your country gotta be determined as a success.

Why?

Why ask why?

Drink Bud Dry!


I asked why first.

 r_squared wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Beat me to it.

Economy holding its own, Nissan promising to build cars, and Forgeworld models flying off the shelves.

Crisis? What crisis?

Let the good times roll

Brexit needs to boost the economy to be a success, not merely hold even.

Why?

Things holding steady, but ensuring more self-determination in your country gotta be determined as a success.

We've yet to see exactly what form the self-determination will take, and whether the idea is worth the potential economic cost. The modern world means that a single country doesn't really have much in the way of "self-determination", especially when compared to the financial and political muscle of other nations.
Besides, things are holding steady at the moment because nothing has really changed apart from the vote. The status quo is in force, and will be for some time to come. We won't have any real idea what will occur until after triggering article 50, then as we negotiate over the following "2 years", and then as we re-negotiate our trade deals with the rest of the world, and start to change current legislation to suit ourselves.
I think most people who voted out are thinking in terms of any damage only being inflicted on them, and only for a couple of years. However, trade negotiations are going to take more than that to sort out, I personally don't think we'll be settled and on an even keel for at least a decade.
It could even be longer, the EU has taken a major blow by us voting to leave, and some Leavers I have spoken to think this is great, that the EU fracturing and being destroyed is a good thing. However I have argued that the fracturing of one giant trading partner into 27 competing, squabbling dispirate entities and the resulting financial chaos that would erupt is a sobering, and unhappy thought.

I think we agree on something......Kind of.
Bankruptcy in member nations, Brexit and the rise of the right coupled with general disaffection have taken some toll on the EU. A break up of the union would be disastrous. Anyone gleefully awaiting that impending implosion is an idiot.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Beat me to it.

Economy holding its own, Nissan promising to build cars, and Forgeworld models flying off the shelves.

Crisis? What crisis?

Let the good times roll

It's not as simple as this. Construction and agriculture are down and manufacturing is pretty stagnant. It's only services that are giving the country a boost above what was expected (and even then there was an overall decline in growth). So the principle that a lower £ should be helping manufacturing and exports isn't really holding any ground given previous arguments. However as I've said before and will repeat again - it is too early to read anything into the growth figures (both up and down) on the basis of the Wrexit vote. It is simply too early. Contracts will have been signed, funding approved, imports will have arrived and payments made for products and services etc etc that were implemented before the vote and these will still be feeding through the system. Given the pleasant weather during the summer/autumn it's not really a surprise that service areas are doing OK, but it's only three months worth of data. It's the trend that is important - if people overspent during the summer they may pull back during the late autumn/winter; maybe people did early Xmas shopping during the summer because of the fear that the economy may shrink and prices increase. We just don't know, we'll only have a good picture approximately a year from now.

As for the Nissan, it's telling that they made a noise, Empress May had a meeting with them and then they shut up. So the question is what was promised? If this was to include offsetting any export tariffs, where is this money going to come from? Will it come from schools, NHS (say no inflationary growth), pensions or other public sector areas that might have an impact on other peoples welfare? Yes keeping people in jobs is good, but the question is rather at what cost?

Brexit needs to boost the economy to be a success, not merely hold even.

Why?

Things holding steady, but ensuring more self-determination in your country gotta be determined as a success.

Any change to business needs to at least pay for itself. The act of Brexiting is definitely not free (think how many hours have been spent on it by businesses/bureaucrats/politicians, then in assurances, legal fees, paperwork, printing, travel, etc), so the economy post-Brexit needs to do better than the economy of pre-Brexit, by at least as much as Brexit itself cost, otherwise we've taken a step backwards.

Would you spend £100m on a new machine for your factory, if it will only save you £30m over its lifetime?

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


That's exactly why I voted to leave - I wanted Democracy back.

I've asked this before but didn't get any thoughts so I'll ask it again...

What is democracy though in this context?

Is it democracy that a few people are determining what is important rather than parliament as a whole and get given a surprise package 2 years down the road?
Is it democracy that only the final decision will be allowed to be voted on, which could be two days before we just resort to WTO rules (which is akin to holding a metaphorical pistol to parliaments head and saying sign this or you'll get something much worse).
Is it democracy that we now have policies being invented by the government that no one has voted on (the 2015 election manifesto has basically has been put in the shredder)
Is it democracy that they are about to change the electoral boundaries making it easier for Tories to win and reduce even further peoples ability to choose a government.
Was it democracy that British people living in the EU were not allowed to vote on Brexit (unless they happened to be still registered in the UK in the past 15 years); possibly affecting up to 1 million citizens.
Was it democracy that approx. 3 million EU citizens in the UK (except people from Ireland, Malta and Cyprus) weren't allowed to vote on something that is likely to have an equivalent (or more so) effect on their lives; yet commonwealth citizens in the UK were allowed to vote on the issue (despite it potentially having much less of an effect on them).

We espouse the virtue of getting Democracy back in the UK yet all evidence since this sorry fiasco began was that the UK is becoming less democratic! Whereas we have an example from Belgium where a elected group from a small region (rightly or wrongly in terms of how they approached it) could influence and shape a major trade agreement, yet the EU is noted as not being not democratic and that small groups could never have an influence?

The one thing I have noticed is how many leave supporters now claim that they are only interested in democracy, and that immigration and all the other arguments had no sway in their decision making.
It's extrordinary, it's as if Nigel and his chums were wasting their times with unsubstantiated claims on the sides of buses. They could have simply run the entire campaign on the premise that it is the democratic thing to do, and they would have won just as convincingly.

(I'd just add that I don't include DINLT in that sweeping generalisation, he was always banging the democracy, independence drum)

In other news, Ken Loach sticks a "cruel" label onto the Conservatives...

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/question-time-ken-loach-accuses-government-conscious-cruelty-benefits-sanctions_uk_581275f3e4b0672ea6885246?sxpnhftjwj4z33di&utm_hp_ref=uk

It made me smile when Theresa May tried to claim that the Tories were no longer the "Nasty party" during the conference. Any political party that proposes that "trickle down" economics is a real thing, and the way to run a country is always going to be the Sherrif of Nottingham of politics.

r_squared, I appreciate the fact you left me out of that sweeping generalisation, but let me make another point:

Yes, democracy was the main reason for my Leave vote, but there was also something else:

When the recession started in 2008. I didn't have two pennies to rub together. When it ended, I still didn't have two pennies to rub together.

Before the EU referendum, it was the same, after it, you get the picture.

Point is, they can't threaten to take money from a man that has no money!

I appreciate that the economics of Brexit will make it tough for some people, I'm not mocking them.

But for me, economics was never a worry as I have no money, and immigration was never a worry because I rarely see immigrants up here.

Also, as somebody who has lived abroad for years in the past, I couldn't complain about people coming over here. Immigration never bothered me, as I see the problems as a failure to build more houses by successive Tory and Labour governments.

I hope that offers some explanation for my leave vote.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Whirlwind wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


That's exactly why I voted to leave - I wanted Democracy back.

I've asked this before but didn't get any thoughts so I'll ask it again...

What is democracy though in this context?

Is it democracy that a few people are determining what is important rather than parliament as a whole and get given a surprise package 2 years down the road?
Is it democracy that only the final decision will be allowed to be voted on, which could be two days before we just resort to WTO rules (which is akin to holding a metaphorical pistol to parliaments head and saying sign this or you'll get something much worse).
Is it democracy that we now have policies being invented by the government that no one has voted on (the 2015 election manifesto has basically has been put in the shredder)
Is it democracy that they are about to change the electoral boundaries making it easier for Tories to win and reduce even further peoples ability to choose a government.
Was it democracy that British people living in the EU were not allowed to vote on Brexit (unless they happened to be still registered in the UK in the past 15 years); possibly affecting up to 1 million citizens.
Was it democracy that approx. 3 million EU citizens in the UK (except people from Ireland, Malta and Cyprus) weren't allowed to vote on something that is likely to have an equivalent (or more so) effect on their lives; yet commonwealth citizens in the UK were allowed to vote on the issue (despite it potentially having much less of an effect on them).

We espouse the virtue of getting Democracy back in the UK yet all evidence since this sorry fiasco began was that the UK is becoming less democratic! Whereas we have an example from Belgium where a elected group from a small region (rightly or wrongly in terms of how they approached it) could influence and shape a major trade agreement, yet the EU is noted as not being not democratic and that small groups could never have an influence?

Don't get me started on the state of British democracy

A lot of your points are spot on, but I will say this: whatever problems they are with British democracy, and they are many, at least it's easier for the British people to do something about it. They can march them on the Commons or push for change if they want it.

I've always believed that the closer you are to government, the better it is. I have a council, a MSP, and a MP. I know who they are, and where they are if I need to get in contact with them. I know how the system works.

I know what bits are run by Edinburgh and what bits are run by London.

But these extra layers of EU governance increase the distance between the electorate and the decision makers, and add a layer of complexity IMO.

But mark my words, things will change in the UK, they'll have to change. Leaving aside the economic aspects of BREXIT, the constitutional arrangements will change becuase of Scotland.

Scotland will go independent or Westminster will have to offer a very good deal to stop Scotland from breaking away.

Westminster has always said that Scotland couldn't get VAT powers, fishing, or Agriculture because of the EU, well that's changed, and that's just the start.

A Federal Britain has been a none starter because of English disinterest, but things may change.

Plus, the Lords will have to go...

Who knows what will happen?

Brexit legal challenge dismissed: Northern Ireland case against EU withdrawal will not be heard

I doubt this will be the last we hear of this.

@ DIKLT

I dream of a properly federalised UK too. I think I already laid out my suggestions in here before.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Brexit legal challenge dismissed: Northern Ireland case against EU withdrawal will not be heard

I doubt this will be the last we hear of this.

@ DIKLT

I dream of a properly federalised UK too. I think I already laid out my suggestions in here before.

As I've said before, a Federal UK is a non-starter because England is a) 80% of the UK and b) not interested.

a) is not England's fault, but b) does surprise me.

Cities like Liverpool and Manchester have shown some interests, but I'm surprised that historic regions like Cornwall are not interested.

Cornwall could do with devolution IMO.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
...as I see the problems as a failure to build more houses by successive Tory and Labour governments.

I've seen variations of this... but, wut? The UK government builds (assuming funds) houses??
O.o

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Whirlwind wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


That's exactly why I voted to leave - I wanted Democracy back.

I've asked this before but didn't get any thoughts so I'll ask it again...

What is democracy though in this context?

Is it democracy that a few people are determining what is important rather than parliament as a whole and get given a surprise package 2 years down the road?
Is it democracy that only the final decision will be allowed to be voted on, which could be two days before we just resort to WTO rules (which is akin to holding a metaphorical pistol to parliaments head and saying sign this or you'll get something much worse).
Is it democracy that we now have policies being invented by the government that no one has voted on (the 2015 election manifesto has basically has been put in the shredder)
Is it democracy that they are about to change the electoral boundaries making it easier for Tories to win and reduce even further peoples ability to choose a government.
Was it democracy that British people living in the EU were not allowed to vote on Brexit (unless they happened to be still registered in the UK in the past 15 years); possibly affecting up to 1 million citizens.
Was it democracy that approx. 3 million EU citizens in the UK (except people from Ireland, Malta and Cyprus) weren't allowed to vote on something that is likely to have an equivalent (or more so) effect on their lives; yet commonwealth citizens in the UK were allowed to vote on the issue (despite it potentially having much less of an effect on them).

We espouse the virtue of getting Democracy back in the UK yet all evidence since this sorry fiasco began was that the UK is becoming less democratic! Whereas we have an example from Belgium where a elected group from a small region (rightly or wrongly in terms of how they approached it) could influence and shape a major trade agreement, yet the EU is noted as not being not democratic and that small groups could never have an influence?

Don't get me started on the state of British democracy

A lot of your points are spot on, but I will say this: whatever problems they are with British democracy, and they are many, at least it's easier for the British people to do something about it. They can march them on the Commons or push for change if they want it.

I've always believed that the closer you are to government, the better it is. I have a council, a MSP, and a MP. I know who they are, and where they are if I need to get in contact with them. I know how the system works.

I know what bits are run by Edinburgh and what bits are run by London.

But these extra layers of EU governance increase the distance between the electorate and the decision makers, and add a layer of complexity IMO.

But mark my words, things will change in the UK, they'll have to change. Leaving aside the economic aspects of BREXIT, the constitutional arrangements will change becuase of Scotland.

Scotland will go independent or Westminster will have to offer a very good deal to stop Scotland from breaking away.

Westminster has always said that Scotland couldn't get VAT powers, fishing, or Agriculture because of the EU, well that's changed, and that's just the start.

A Federal Britain has been a none starter because of English disinterest, but things may change. .

What I underlined above is the answer to KK's earlier "why".

Plus, the Lords will have to go...

Have your MPs vote for the Lords.

Who knows what will happen?

Just look at this as an opportunity to engage in your political sphere. Be brave, rub some elbow grease and take control of your destiny.

On a local government level (town councils, but also heading towards regional levels), the Government is responsible for approving or unapproving land to be built for housing.

Generally speaking, this approval can potentially be rather difficult to gain, due to the local government balancing various requirements - including, for example, people owning pre-existing homes declaring that it will affect their house prices, plus other associated 'NIMBYs' - Not in My Back Yards(!)

There are other reasons too, for example, the UK puts a lot of emphasis on 'the green belt' - Ensuring that there is undeveloped / farmland located between different towns.

The UK has also, historically, had an involvement in building "Council housing" or "Council Flats" which are homes built for and provided by the Government for people who cannot afford their own home. Over the years, this pool of 'council housing' has decreased dramatically, as I understand it, due to it being an easy way for various governments to get a quick buck.

 whembly wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
...as I see the problems as a failure to build more houses by successive Tory and Labour governments.

I've seen variations of this... but, wut? The UK government builds (assuming funds) houses??
O.o

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Whirlwind wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


That's exactly why I voted to leave - I wanted Democracy back.

I've asked this before but didn't get any thoughts so I'll ask it again...

What is democracy though in this context?

Is it democracy that a few people are determining what is important rather than parliament as a whole and get given a surprise package 2 years down the road?
Is it democracy that only the final decision will be allowed to be voted on, which could be two days before we just resort to WTO rules (which is akin to holding a metaphorical pistol to parliaments head and saying sign this or you'll get something much worse).
Is it democracy that we now have policies being invented by the government that no one has voted on (the 2015 election manifesto has basically has been put in the shredder)
Is it democracy that they are about to change the electoral boundaries making it easier for Tories to win and reduce even further peoples ability to choose a government.
Was it democracy that British people living in the EU were not allowed to vote on Brexit (unless they happened to be still registered in the UK in the past 15 years); possibly affecting up to 1 million citizens.
Was it democracy that approx. 3 million EU citizens in the UK (except people from Ireland, Malta and Cyprus) weren't allowed to vote on something that is likely to have an equivalent (or more so) effect on their lives; yet commonwealth citizens in the UK were allowed to vote on the issue (despite it potentially having much less of an effect on them).

We espouse the virtue of getting Democracy back in the UK yet all evidence since this sorry fiasco began was that the UK is becoming less democratic! Whereas we have an example from Belgium where a elected group from a small region (rightly or wrongly in terms of how they approached it) could influence and shape a major trade agreement, yet the EU is noted as not being not democratic and that small groups could never have an influence?

Don't get me started on the state of British democracy

A lot of your points are spot on, but I will say this: whatever problems they are with British democracy, and they are many, at least it's easier for the British people to do something about it. They can march them on the Commons or push for change if they want it.

I've always believed that the closer you are to government, the better it is. I have a council, a MSP, and a MP. I know who they are, and where they are if I need to get in contact with them. I know how the system works.

I know what bits are run by Edinburgh and what bits are run by London.

But these extra layers of EU governance increase the distance between the electorate and the decision makers, and add a layer of complexity IMO.

But mark my words, things will change in the UK, they'll have to change. Leaving aside the economic aspects of BREXIT, the constitutional arrangements will change becuase of Scotland.

Scotland will go independent or Westminster will have to offer a very good deal to stop Scotland from breaking away.

Westminster has always said that Scotland couldn't get VAT powers, fishing, or Agriculture because of the EU, well that's changed, and that's just the start.

A Federal Britain has been a none starter because of English disinterest, but things may change. .

What I underlined above is the answer to KK's earlier "why".

Plus, the Lords will have to go...

Have your MPs vote for the Lords.

Who knows what will happen?

Just look at this as an opportunity to engage in your political sphere. Be brave, rub some elbow grease and take control of your destiny.

Whembly, as things stand, I have 4 elected representatives. One of them, the Member of the European Parliament, will be getting scrapped. And good riddance to that!

3 elected representatives is enough for me, and they are:

Local Council (the guys that empty the garbage bins and fix the roads.)

MSP (Member of Scottish parliament) These guys are equivalent to the state legislative in one of your American states.

MP (Member of Westminster/House of Commons) that's the 'federal' stuff - defense, foreign affairs, etc etc They choose the Prime Minister

That's more than enough for me, because they're overpaid as it is! Plus, my 'state' legislative is having a constitutional crisis with the 'federal' government in London

As for your other question, in the UK, local councils used to be responsible for building homes. But in the 1980s, as an election bribe, Margaret Thatcher gave people the opportunity to buy their council homes.

I'm not against home ownership, but Thatcher thought the private sector would fill the house building void, but surprise surprise, they didn't.

And then councils were discouraged from building council homes...

So 30 years after disaster was predicted, we have a major housing crisis in the UK and successive governments have done nothing to fix this!