UK Politics

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**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
I think the court made the right descision,

the government could have choses to make the referendum result binding (they have done in other cases), but in this case chose to make it advisory only

so I agree with the court that parliament now need to agree to trigger article 50

however even though I voted to remain I very much hope that parliament does respect the will of the people and does vote to trigger article 50 (and will be very unimpressed with any MP/Party who choses not to do so)

Thanks for that sensible comment

I doubt if anybody would believe me and it's all academic, but had Remain won, and Leave tried to pull this stunt, I'd be siding with Remain, despite my opposition to the EU.

I'm a democrat at the end of the day...

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
So Parliament now has the right to reject the result of the Referendum? Charming. Just when I thought my contempt for MPs couldn't get any worse.

Tim Farron already pitching a vote for the Lib Dems as a vote to stay in the EU. The man is beneath contempt. He's no democrat.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Future War Cultist wrote:
I'm...beyond outraged here. My hope now is that a snap general election is called and every single Remainer MP is kicked out on their ass.

And call a second referendum. I'll vote leave in that one too, and every other one after that too.

My thoughts exactly.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mr. Burning wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:
In the UK referenda are not binding on Parliament. The case was never about that, it was about PM May's reliance on the Royal Prerogative to form and dissolve treaties of her own accord without reference to Parliament for a debate, etc.

Honestly, when you look at the UK's long history of the people fighting to use Parliament to grind down the arbitrary rule of the monarch through Royal Prerogative, it is laughable to say that this decision is an insult to democracy.

I realise that a lot of Leavers are worried that given the unfolding of events since the referendum, a second Remain/Leave vote may come out with a different result. However that is not a good reason to allow the PM to essentially assume dictatorial powers.

At any rate, the government no doubt will appeal the case, so it is not over yet. Even if the appeal failed, what it means is there would be a debate and Parliament might decide to authorise the PM to go ahead with Article 50 as planned.

I actually think this decision is probably the most important the UK has faced for 50 years, and I do not want the country to rush through things out of a hope that it might persuade a bunch of conspiracy theorists they are wrong.

There really needed to be a discussion on what the EU is, what it wants to become vs what the future would be for a UK outside of the EU but of Europe. All we have had have been lies from from leave and hoping for the best from remain (IMO).

Both campaigns were targeting the emotional vote in order to see their side to victory.

I don't regret my vote and would most probably vote to leave again. But damn the politicians, in every party, who see the 'EU' as a means to score points and as a crutch to hide inadequacies of their own policies.

No disrespect, Mr Burning, but we had that discussion and debate, and we voted on June 23rd!!!

**Mozzyfuzzy**

You can just vote your local MP out if you don't agree with their voting though? Wasn't that an argument made for leaving the EU, that there is more relative ease of affecting politics in Westminster than Brussels?

Hooray for taking back democracy and not being beholden to people we didn't elect making decisions.

**Future War Cultist**

Who the hell does this Gina Miller character think she is?

May should call a general election now. No way am I going to stand back and let these scumbags get away with this.

**Herzlos**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Government loses Article 50 case

A black day for British democracy....

I can't grasp how this is a black day for democracy- we're moving the decision making ability from an unelected individual to an elected parliament to properly debate and decide.

The fact that GBP has started a small rise goes to show what the economy thinks of it.

The Remain side couldn't make a case for EU membership, couldn't win the referendum fair and square, so they got the courts and lawyers' tricks to do the work for them, thus betraying the wishes of 17 million people who voted to leave...

That's democracy - some on the Remain side are using their democratic right to petition parliament to do what they feel is best, and apparently the judges agree.

From here, it sounds a lot like the Exit side just want things done before there's any actual scrutiny on the whole thing.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

The stupidity of our MPs is something to behold.

They want to know what the BREXIT terms are, but we can't have BREXIT until Article 50 is invoked.

and those same MPs are welcoming the court's decision....

What the hell happened to this country?

**Kilkrazy**

Gina Miller is someone who believes her rights as a citizen should not be deprived by the PM using Royal Prerogative to bypass the role of Parliament in forming the laws of the UK.

I think a general election probably is the way forwards, though there are lots of difficulties in doing it in a rush.

For example, May is currently in very bad odour in her own constituency, which voted strongly to Remain, and dislikes her support for Heathrow's third runway.

**Marxist artist**

I wish they would just trigger it now, I voted remain , but it's done , respect the vote , get it done, move on , work together to make the uk better rather than arguing over it and endless legal and political points scoring.

**Future War Cultist**

@ Herzlos

And what if parliament just decides to not trigger article 50 and instead carry on like nothing happened despite the referendum result? Are you happy with that?

**Marxist artist**

Herzlos is in Italy he will be fine!

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

Herzlos wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Government loses Article 50 case

A black day for British democracy....

I can't grasp how this is a black day for democracy- we're moving the decision making ability from an unelected individual to an elected parliament to properly debate and decide.

The fact that GBP has started a small rise goes to show what the economy thinks of it.

The Remain side couldn't make a case for EU membership, couldn't win the referendum fair and square, so they got the courts and lawyers' tricks to do the work for them, thus betraying the wishes of 17 million people who voted to leave...

That's democracy - some on the Remain side are using their democratic right to petition parliament to do what they feel is best, and apparently the judges agree.

From here, it sounds a lot like the Exit side just want things done before there's any actual scrutiny on the whole thing.

And you trust Nick Clegg and Tim Farron to vote for Article 50, even though they think Leave voters made a mistake, and even when they're on record as saying they'll do anything to keep us in the EU?

You're going to trust MPs, who are landowners, who get EU subsidies, to vote to leave the EU?

Good, God, almighty....I say'll no more, because this is a good forum, full of good people, and I don't want to insult people or get banned.

We'll agree to disagree...

But I'll leave you with one stat: a majority of constituencies voted to leave. 70% of our MPs voted to stay...

The center cannot hold....

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kilkrazy wrote:
Gina Miller is someone who believes her rights as a citizen should not be deprived by the PM using Royal Prerogative to bypass the role of Parliament in forming the laws of the UK.

I think a general election probably is the way forwards, though there are lots of difficulties in doing it in a rush.

For example, May is currently in very bad odour in her own constituency, which voted strongly to Remain, and dislikes her support for Heathrow's third runway.

You either respect the referendum result or you don't. Parliament voted overwhelmingly for a referendum. They can't have it both ways....

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Parliament overwhelmingly passed a bill that surrendered sovereignty to the British people for the EU referendum vote....

For Parliament to start bleating about Parliamentary sovereignty now, is hypocrisy of the highest order....

**Future War Cultist**

You're absolutely right DINLT.

**Mozzyfuzzy**

Maybe people should have voted for an MP that would have voted to leave, when they knew a referendum was on the cards if the Tories won.

I guess people are just against the sovereignty of parliament, or something.

**Herzlos**

Future War Cultist wrote:
@ Herzlos

And what if parliament just decides to not trigger article 50 and instead carry on like nothing happened despite the referendum result? Are you happy with that?

Yup, or if they decide to go for it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

And you trust Nick Clegg and Tim Farron to vote for Article 50, even though they think Leave voters made a mistake, and even when they're on record as saying they'll do anything to keep us in the EU?

There are 649 other MPs, some of whom will also vote out regardless.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Marxist artist wrote:
Herzlos is in Italy he will be fine!

Alas, no. I'm watching this clusterfeth from the inside.

**Mozzyfuzzy**

I've also got to ask, how is Parliament doing parliament things in setting up the referendum and then wanting to do parliament things in regards to Brexit hypocrisy?

They voted in favour of allowing the referendum, why are people worried that doing their elected jobs means we're suddenly going to stop Brexit.

Yes 70% voted to remain, but that's them on a personal level and has nothing to do with them doing their elected jobs, if they don't do their elected jobs, their constiuents (for those in favour of leave) can just vote to remove them.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

Mozzyfuzzy wrote:
I've also got to ask, how is Parliament doing parliament things in setting up the referendum and then wanting to do parliament things in regards to Brexit hypocrisy?

They voted in favour of allowing the referendum, why are people worried that doing their elected jobs means we're suddenly going to stop Brexit.

Yes 70% voted to remain, but that's them on a personal level and has nothing to do with them doing their elected jobs, if they don't do their elected jobs, their constiuents (for those in favour of leave) can just vote to remove them.

It's hypocricsy becuase Parliament is stuffed full of people who are on record as saying they'll do anything to keep us in the EU.

Nobody would be talking about Parliamentary sovereignty if Remain had won and Leave tried this stunt at the high court....

It would be will of the people, respect the result, blah blah blah...

That's why i call these people hypocrites. I'd be calling them a lot worse but for my respect for dakka, my fellow dakka members, plus the fact I don't want to be banned.

**Kilkrazy**

It is pretty clear that Nick Clegg would vote for Remain, if he were elected. It is up to the voters of his constituency to decide if they want to elect him on that basis.

There is nothing hypocritical about that.

**Skullhammer**

There was also the "public funded (tax payer)" mail shot that every household got and said that the goverment would implement the result what ever it was.

This could go very very wrong on so many levels.

Oh anyone know where i can get a dune buggy a load of steel plate and a v mask onna stick. Lol

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

Mozzyfuzzy wrote:
You can just vote your local MP out if you don't agree with their voting though? Wasn't that an argument made for leaving the EU, that there is more relative ease of affecting politics in Westminster than Brussels?

Hooray for taking back democracy and not being beholden to people we didn't elect making decisions.

As if! I live in a safe Labour seat, Sedgefield (Tony Blair's old constituency).

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

Kilkrazy wrote:
It is pretty clear that Nick Clegg would vote for Remain, if he were elected. It is up to the voters of his constituency to decide if they want to elect him on that basis.

So effectively, we're having another EU referendum, because that scenario will be played out for every MP from John O'Groats to Land's End.

As I said, why did I even waste my time voting on June 23rd....

**reds8n**

Summary of high court decision against government

..so...

.... I'd say any appeal -- which wouldn't be until early December apparently, -- would be unlikely to succeed and be quite costly.

But they could hold the debate next week and vote straight away.

I doubt the bill -- and it could easily be a 1 line members bill -- would fail.

..well.. in the Commons anyway.

House of Lords ....... pfftt .... anyone's guess there.

edit :

note how the Daily Hate is now using "openly gay" as a slur.

Classy as ever.

....

**Kilkrazy**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:
It is pretty clear that Nick Clegg would vote for Remain, if he were elected. It is up to the voters of his constituency to decide if they want to elect him on that basis.

So effectively, we're having another EU referendum, because that scenario will be played out for every MP from John O'Groats to Land's End.

As I said, why did I even waste my time voting on June 23rd....

Leaving aside the legal points, there's nothing wrong with a second referendum. The worry is that enough people might have changed their mind since June to change the result. As said, though, if a democracy cannot change its mind, it is no longer a democracy.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Reaction from the BBC's political editor.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37861456

"The only way of making this headache go away could be a general election."

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

Kilkrazy wrote:
Leaving aside the legal points, there's nothing wrong with a second referendum. The worry is that enough people might have changed their mind since June to change the result. As said, though, if a democracy cannot change its mind, it is no longer a democracy.

Sure. You can have a second referendum, if I can have a third referendum when your side wins. Deal? When people are forced to vote again and again until they give the "correct" result is no Democracy, either. We saw this in Ireland and Denmark and the other referendums held across Europe on EU affairs. Its the EU's MO.

When a Referendum returns the wrong result, its subject to debate and negotiation and legal challenges and parliamentary obstructionism and eventually the people are forced to vote a second time after being suitably intimidated and worn down.

When a Referendum returns the correct result, its final.

**Kilkrazy**

That is for Parliament to decide.

**Future War Cultist**

That is the classic europhile response to an answer they didn't want; keep asking the question again until they get the answer they do want, then declare that answer fully binding and unchangeable. If we have another referendum and the results somehow moves to remain you can bet your ass that that will be the final answer and to hell with 'changing your mind.'

I'm going to have to step away from here for a while because I'm on the verge of chewing a couple of people out.

**Graphite**

Hooray! The madness continues!

So. Parliament now gets to debate things, rather than letting the PM do whatever the hell she likes. Fair enough. EVEN IF they decide to go with Brexit, at least it means that more than half a dozen people will have looked at the Government proposals and had a chance to say "No, that's a stupid idea"/"Yes that'll work brilliantly".

So - politicians doing the job they're supposed to. Excellent.

Or, more likely, we get a General Election. Which parties do you think will run on a "Stay in the EU ticket"? SNP, Greens and the Lib Dems, certainly. Probably some independents. Labour and Conservatives will PROBABLY go "pro leave" to try to cut off UKIP at the knees.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

Kilkrazy wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:
It is pretty clear that Nick Clegg would vote for Remain, if he were elected. It is up to the voters of his constituency to decide if they want to elect him on that basis.

So effectively, we're having another EU referendum, because that scenario will be played out for every MP from John O'Groats to Land's End.

As I said, why did I even waste my time voting on June 23rd....

Leaving aside the legal points, there's nothing wrong with a second referendum. The worry is that enough people might have changed their mind since June to change the result. As said, though, if a democracy cannot change its mind, it is no longer a democracy.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Reaction from the BBC's political editor.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37861456

"The only way of making this headache go away could be a general election."

Well, let's have a 3rd, a 4th, and a 5th referendum whilst we're at it....

Hell, let's have 100 referendums. First side to win 51 referendums wins the day....

But that result would probably have to go through the courts as well...

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

Kilkrazy wrote:
That is for Parliament to decide.

Until the electorates votes Remain in a second referendum, at which point I expect you will change your tune and begin talking about "respecting the democratic will of the people".

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

Graphite wrote:
Hooray! The madness continues!

So. Parliament now gets to debate things, rather than letting the PM do whatever the hell she likes. Fair enough. EVEN IF they decide to go with Brexit, at least it means that more than half a dozen people will have looked at the Government proposals and had a chance to say "No, that's a stupid idea"/"Yes that'll work brilliantly".

So - politicians doing the job they're supposed to. Excellent.

Or, more likely, we get a General Election. Which parties do you think will run on a "Stay in the EU ticket"? SNP, Greens and the Lib Dems, certainly. Probably some independents. Labour and Conservatives will PROBABLY go "pro leave" to try to cut off UKIP at the knees.

I'd probably end up voting UKIP, and I do not say that lightly....

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Future War Cultist wrote:
That is the classic europhile response to an answer they didn't want; keep asking the question again until they get the answer they do want, then declare that answer fully binding and unchangeable. If we have another referendum and the results somehow moves to remain you can bet your ass that that will be the final answer and to hell with 'changing your mind.'

I'm going to have to step away from here for a while because I'm on the verge of chewing a couple of people out.

Good idea. I'll step back as well. I don't want to insult people who had zero responsibility or power for this court's decision.

My anger is directed at the High Court and our MPs, not dakka members. Apologies if I'm being irritable and angry towards my fellow dakka members, but I feel so mad at this decision....

Time for a long lunch I think....

**Kilkrazy**

Future War Cultist wrote:
That is the classic europhile response to an answer they didn't want; keep asking the question again until they get the answer they do want, then declare that answer fully binding and unchangeable. If we have another referendum and the results somehow moves to remain you can bet your ass that that will be the final answer and to hell with 'changing your mind.'

I'm going to have to step away from here for a while because I'm on the verge of chewing a couple of people out.

I didn't say the results are final. I said that in accordance with UK constitutional law, Parliament must take the decision, and a general election is the best way of forming a parliament to do it, giving everyone the opportunity to elect an MP to represent their views.

**Stranger83**

Mozzyfuzzy wrote:
You can just vote your local MP out if you don't agree with their voting though? Wasn't that an argument made for leaving the EU, that there is more relative ease of affecting politics in Westminster than Brussels?

Hooray for taking back democracy and not being beholden to people we didn't elect making decisions.

Indeed you can, the answer to this seems pretty simple to me - have Mrs May hold a GE two weeks before she wants to trigger article 50 and make sure all tory MPs are pro EU (or at least in the areas that voted for leave). Not only does it fix the 'problem' or MPs not getting a say (though I imagine remainers would find a reason to say this was unfair) it'd also give Mrs May a far bigger majority in parliament.

And I say this as someone who never has (and other than in the situation stated above never will) voted tory in my life.