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I do not believe Brexit will occur if Parliament is regarded as necessary to trigger Article 50. If May gives it to Parliament, Parliament will reject it. We may well then have a new election, and the major parties may well cede twenty or thirty seats to UKIP as a result, but Parliament will not pass Brexit regardess. The political class is too firmly in favour of the EU.

There'll be a lot of hubbub over it though.

Herzlos wrote:


I also suspect that the number of people who'd vote Leave/UKIP now is lower than those that'd vote Remain/Anyone else, purely because of the direct economic impact of Brexit (mainly, Costa del Asbo being 20% more expensive for holidaying).

Also there was some evidence that some people voted to stick one to the government but didn't actually want to Leave (noting the Lady that wrote to all MPs on the issue and got a terse response).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Somebody in the news made a brilliant point that only confirms what I've suspected: the Westminster elite is trying its best to subvert the will of the British people.

And this was the point:

When the Lisbon treaty went through, the Royal Perogative was used. Nobody gave two hoots about Parliament. Courts didn't over rule the goverment.

Hell, Parliament itself didn't lift a finger or even cared....

And yet, May tries to use the Royal Perogative to invoke A50, and all now it's all about Parliament, and high courts, and yadda yadda...

The double standards is sickening.

Well it was UK citizens that took the issue to the high court, not the Government. There was nothing stopping EUsceptics UK citizens from challenging the Lisbon Treaty and that decision, so the analogy doesn't really work you can only really blame the Eurosceptics on this area.

Also I see Boris Johnson came out with his real views on Brexit today

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37858143




And also it appears Article 50 is also reversible

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-37852628

And MP's think the British public is apathetic to politics already...Just wait and see. If they go through with this and insist on blocking Brexit, voter apathy and contempt for Westminster will go through the roof, and our already lacklustre general election turnout will plummet even further.

When is it ok to literally fight for democracy?

 Future War Cultist wrote:
When is it ok to literally fight for democracy?

When you're a far left radical fighting the evil Tories.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
When is it ok to literally fight for democracy?

Depends on what you mean by 'fight'. If you are already in a democratic country and it means campaigning, joining a party and whatever then always. If you are referring to a coup then never. It's not democracy when you overturn an elected government to ensure a specific way of thinking is maintained or installed. It would also likely lead to civil war.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Somebody in the news made a brilliant point that only confirms what I've suspected: the Westminster elite is trying its best to subvert the will of the British people.

And this was the point:

When the Lisbon treaty went through, the Royal Perogative was used. Nobody gave two hoots about Parliament. Courts didn't over rule the goverment.

Hell, Parliament itself didn't lift a finger or even cared....

And yet, May tries to use the Royal Perogative to invoke A50, and all now it's all about Parliament, and high courts, and yadda yadda...

The double standards is sickening.

If you believe the Lisbon Treaty was illegally signed then you should try and take it to court. If you invalidate the Lisbon Treaty then you'd automatically leave the EU.

I don't know enough about it to debate the legalities.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Somebody in the news made a brilliant point that only confirms what I've suspected: the Westminster elite is trying its best to subvert the will of the British people.

And this was the point:

When the Lisbon treaty went through, the Royal Perogative was used. Nobody gave two hoots about Parliament. Courts didn't over rule the goverment.

Hell, Parliament itself didn't lift a finger or even cared....

And yet, May tries to use the Royal Perogative to invoke A50, and all now it's all about Parliament, and high courts, and yadda yadda...

The double standards is sickening.

That's... not exactly true, it passed through both houses of parliament (Commons went 346 for, 206 against and then received royal assent.

A lawsuit reached court demanding it face a referendum, which was shot down by the courts, despite appeals.

So, the West and Democracy are really dead, then ?

 godardc wrote:
So, the West and Democracy are really dead, then ?

Not yet, there are still some liberal idealists fighting for it!

Like the ones trying to prevent the Brexit, asked by the people ? I recall, when the referendum was happening. I followed the results the whole night, with hope and fear. And, eventually, the Leave side won. I was so happy, because, at last, there was a sign of the European Union death. Finally, people would be free again.
I don't want the people's will and liberty to be taken away again.

People are all over my Facebook like "The leavers are upset because they are being forced parliamentary sovereignty by the courts!"


And I'm like, you're all idiots and that statement is a contradiction.

 godardc wrote:
Like the ones trying to prevent the Brexit, asked by the people ?

About half the people. The other about half the people wanted the opposite. The difference was less than the margin of error in most polls. Which is what it basically was, a non legally binding poll. Which is why the courts pointed out that parliament would have to act, as several laws would have to be repealed or changed before Article 50 could legally be invoked.

Which is exactly what I think the next court, and the next court will say. The European Communities Act of 1972 in particular must be repealed to enact Article 50, and only Parliament has the right to do that under the law (bar the intervention of the Monarch).

 godardc wrote:
So, the West and Democracy are really dead, then ?

Democracy has been restored due to this ruling, triggered by someones democratic right to challrnge government.

I just can't see how preventing May makinv a decision on her own, instead having to get parliamentary approval, can be called undemocratic?

Is this the same undemocratic behaviour that was Remain voters complaining?

 godardc wrote:
Like the ones trying to prevent the Brexit, asked by the people ? I recall, when the referendum was happening. I followed the results the whole night, with hope and fear. And, eventually, the Leave side won. I was so happy, because, at last, there was a sign of the European Union death. Finally, people would be free again.
I don't want the people's will and liberty to be taken away again.

I think the reports of the EU 'death' is very much premature....We have been free for a long time. By being in the EU you have more freedom than you ever have done. You are constrained by borders and have the right to work where ever you please, whether that be the UK, France or Poland. Removing the EU and going back to trade barriers, visas and other nonsense is much less freedom.

 Ketara wrote:
I do not believe Brexit will occur if Parliament is regarded as necessary to trigger Article 50. If May gives it to Parliament, Parliament will reject it. We may well then have a new election, and the major parties may well cede twenty or thirty seats to UKIP as a result, but Parliament will not pass Brexit regardess. The political class is too firmly in favour of the EU.

There'll be a lot of hubbub over it though.

Now you know why I wanted Article 50 triggered ASAP.

I knew this would happen.

When I suggested a quick article 50, people shot me down in flames for lack of a plan.

Well, you could have the best BREXIT strategy in the world, but if Parliament is hell bent on blocking it, then it's not worth a bucket of horsegak....

We have spent the last 40 years half-in the EU.

We will now spend the next 40 years half out...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Whirlwind wrote:

Herzlos wrote:


I also suspect that the number of people who'd vote Leave/UKIP now is lower than those that'd vote Remain/Anyone else, purely because of the direct economic impact of Brexit (mainly, Costa del Asbo being 20% more expensive for holidaying).

Also there was some evidence that some people voted to stick one to the government but didn't actually want to Leave (noting the Lady that wrote to all MPs on the issue and got a terse response).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Somebody in the news made a brilliant point that only confirms what I've suspected: the Westminster elite is trying its best to subvert the will of the British people.

And this was the point:

When the Lisbon treaty went through, the Royal Perogative was used. Nobody gave two hoots about Parliament. Courts didn't over rule the goverment.

Hell, Parliament itself didn't lift a finger or even cared....

And yet, May tries to use the Royal Perogative to invoke A50, and all now it's all about Parliament, and high courts, and yadda yadda...

The double standards is sickening.

Well it was UK citizens that took the issue to the high court, not the Government. There was nothing stopping EUsceptics UK citizens from challenging the Lisbon Treaty and that decision, so the analogy doesn't really work you can only really blame the Eurosceptics on this area.

Also I see Boris Johnson came out with his real views on Brexit today

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37858143




And also it appears Article 50 is also reversible

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-37852628

You're splitting hairs on a grand scale...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
And MP's think the British public is apathetic to politics already...Just wait and see. If they go through with this and insist on blocking Brexit, voter apathy and contempt for Westminster will go through the roof, and our already lacklustre general election turnout will plummet even further.

I'm in the mood to start a campaign that encourages people not to vote.

If Westminster wants to de-legitimise British voters, then British voters can de-legitimise Westminster by not voting.

Two can play at that game...

They can't force people to vote...

Can someone tell me what Theresa May's plan was for Brexit?

EDIT: I mean policies and what she wanted to establish for Britain, not how and when to invoke A50.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Somebody in the news made a brilliant point that only confirms what I've suspected: the Westminster elite is trying its best to subvert the will of the British people.

And this was the point:

When the Lisbon treaty went through, the Royal Perogative was used. Nobody gave two hoots about Parliament. Courts didn't over rule the goverment.

Hell, Parliament itself didn't lift a finger or even cared....

And yet, May tries to use the Royal Perogative to invoke A50, and all now it's all about Parliament, and high courts, and yadda yadda...

The double standards is sickening.

That's... not exactly true, it passed through both houses of parliament (Commons went 346 for, 206 against and then received royal assent.

A lawsuit reached court demanding it face a referendum, which was shot down by the courts, despite appeals.

I don't remember that. I could be wrong, but I don't think it played out like that.

I do remember Gordon Brown signing the treaty in secret...

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

They can't force people to vote...

Well, Australians, you tell him, because I'm rofling too hard.

Herzlos wrote:

 godardc wrote:
So, the West and Democracy are really dead, then ?

Democracy has been restored due to this ruling, triggered by someones democratic right to challrnge government.

I just can't see how preventing May makinv a decision on her own, instead having to get parliamentary approval, can be called undemocratic?

Is this the same undemocratic behaviour that was Remain voters complaining?

It's slightly perverse that it has been a group of individuals that have had to point out to the UK Government what UK Democracy is constitutionally.

From a Leaver's perspective it is undemocratic because the UK had a referendum on the EU and there was perhaps a negligible majority (but that may well be within the statistical error of the sample). And many people quote that they wanted to Leave because of a small group of elected officials got to direct the EU's direction which wasn't democracy. However once they got a result they wanted the idea of small group of elected officials making all the decisions suddenly became Democracy whereas the UK constitution is based on elected MPs representing the best interests of their constituents (whether they were supported by them or not). What people fail to recognise is that parliament agreed to a non-binding referendum on the issue (democracy) but that they did not sign away the constitutional rights on the outcome to three or four individuals who may have their own agendas.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


I don't remember that. I could be wrong, but I don't think it played out like that.

I do remember Gordon Brown signing the treaty in secret...

Yeah, Parliament ratified it, the votes a matter of record. You might not have paid attention to it.

Well, me and my brother have just had a blazing row over our opinions on this court decision and I'm officially done with him. If I have to avoid Christmas dinner to avoid him so be it.

Frozocrone wrote:
Can someone tell me what Theresa May's plan was for Brexit?

EDIT: I mean policies and what she wanted to establish for Britain, not how and when to invoke A50.

I think it amounts to "Brexit means Brexit", "Getting the best possible deal", and running scared over the thought Nissan might pull out or China might view the Country less favourably if we dropped the over priced, and technologically iffy Nuclear power plant.

Frozocrone wrote:
Can someone tell me what Theresa May's plan was for Brexit?

EDIT: I mean policies and what she wanted to establish for Britain, not how and when to invoke A50.

We can't have terms unless A50 is invoked, but Parliament is saying no A50 without terms...

Parliament acts as though it were the only game in town here. It can jump up and down and demand soft brexit, hard bresxit, ultra soft brexit or whatever.

But if the EU say NON, NEIN, NYET, then what's Parliament going to do?

Parliament's rule ends at the UK side of the Channel Tunnel....

Hopefully, they will grasp this simple reality....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


I don't remember that. I could be wrong, but I don't think it played out like that.

I do remember Gordon Brown signing the treaty in secret...

Yeah, Parliament ratified it, the votes a matter of record. You might not have paid attention to it.

But were they presented with a done deal, though? A fait accompli?

And why didn't the UK public get a referendum? I don't expect you to answer that, but the whole thing stinks to high heaven...

I shall double check with the HoC tomorrow...

I don't remember that. I could be wrong, but I don't think it played out like that.

Here's a news link, took...all of 10 seconds to google.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7472449.stm

I do remember Gordon Brown signing the treaty in secret...

I see so he signed it in secret but someone took the issue to Court for a referendum. That doesn't sound that secret to me!

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

They can't force people to vote...

Well, Australians, you tell him, because I'm rofling too hard.

It's a UK politics thread

What happens Down Under is for those good people to decide.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


but Parliament is saying no A50 without terms...

I hate to say it but that actually makes sense.

It's like if you walk up to me, and ask : "If i shoot myself in the nuts, will you give me five million pounds?" and I say 'Maaaybe!' are you going to assume that I'll give you that money and go ahead and do it? Or will you want some sort of guarantee I'll pay out??

Because there's zero guarantee that England, and I say England because I have a theory about what will happen in the rest of the UK, will not be worse off than before.

But that's the thing, The EU have said no negotiations until we trigger the leaving process, which we can't do until people know what is going on. It's catch 22.

I just hope that this goes through quickly and that parliament follow the will of the referendum. Because that was what decided. You can't piss and moan about how small the majority was because that is how we decide how things get done here. Whether it is by 1 vote or 10,000,000. Whoever is ahead at the end wins.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


but Parliament is saying no A50 without terms...

I hate to say it but that actually makes sense.

It's like if you walk up to me, and ask : "If i shoot myself in the nuts, will you give me five million pounds?" and I say 'Maaaybe!' are you going to assume that I'll give you that money and go ahead and do it? Or will you want some sort of guarantee I'll pay out??

It makes zero sense to go into negotiation and tell the other side what you're going to negotiate for before you even enter the room.

You think the French or Germans won't be reading British newspapers or watching the Parliament channel on the BBC?

They will know our plan and adjust their own accordingly....

Did General Patton leak his plans to the Germans before he attacked them?

Also, most of us Brexiters don't care about being worse off. I've been poor for years, leaving can't make me any poorer!