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The gak heads we have in charge here...

 Future War Cultist wrote:
The gak heads we have in charge here...

For people like me, VAT and Fisheries will never satisfy me, because I want it all - independence.

But there are a lot of 'soft' indy supporters up here, and a lot of undecided voters on the indy issue.

If Westminster was smart, and gave Edinburgh a serious package of new powers, but retained things like defence and foreign affairs, that might be enough to satisfy these people and prevent Scottish independence for a few decades or more....

I think the UK is in dire need for a new settlement for all parts of the UK, not just Scotland.

Too much power is centralized in London IMO.

...and too much subsidy out side of it?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37906739

The board of Sports Direct has denied knowledge of any attempt to bug MPs from the Business and Skills Committee who were on a surprise visit to the firm's Shirebrook warehouse.
The six MPs claimed an attempt was made to smuggle in a recording device behind a plate of sandwiches to record their private discussions after the visit.
The MPs wanted to check whether Sports Direct had improved employment methods.
The board said it did not authorise the use of any device.
Sports Direct said in a statement: "The board is disappointed that reporting of a possible recording device (the veracity of which has yet to be determined) has overshadowed the truly important issues that the visit should have focused on - the true working conditions and worker satisfaction at Shirebrook."
The firm's founder Mike Ashley said: "I stand firmly behind the people of Sports Direct, who through no fault of their own have been made a political football by MPs and unions."
'Totally bizarre'
The MPs only gave notice on Monday morning that they would visit the Derbyshire site.
After a three hour tour, they gathered in a private room, and were served a series of refreshments, including a plate of sandwiches.
However, Anna Turley, MP for Redcar, said the lady who had served the sandwiches also left a recording device in the room.
"I went over to pick up the device and there it was: a camera and a recording device for the conversation that we were having privately. I'm very disappointed."

Ms Turley told the BBC that the situation was "bizarre", and that during the visit the group had been "man-marked" with devices recording everything that was said during the visit.
She said the device in the private room "was on, the red light was showing, it was on, it was recording".
She said the firm had tried to claim it didn't know anything about it - "Mike Ashley's even accused us of planting it ourselves, it was totally bizarre."
Sports Direct, which has around 450 retail outlets, came under fire after BBC and Guardian investigations uncovered working practices at the warehouse which MPs later described as being akin to a Victorian workhouse.
Concern about working conditions led to Sports Direct's founder Mike Ashley being called to give evidence to MPs.
He said at a hearing of the Business and Skills Committee that control of the company may have outgrown him.
But Mr Ashley denied knowing about day-to-day operations at Shirebrook.
Sports Direct has promised to make a number of changes to its working practices.

...hmm...

curiouser and curiouser.


Given this and the USA election going on there must be some really piss awful news the Govt. is hoping that'll be ignored.

 notprop wrote:
...and too much subsidy out side of it?

Nonsense. London Crosslink and the 2012 Olympics' costs were added to Scotland's balance sheet, despite being 400 miles away!

I suppose Andy Murray used the train to get there?

 notprop wrote:
I suppose Andy Murray used the train to get there?

Not at all - private chauffeur

Well there is supossed to be a report out today about the top brass in the met being a bit dodgey.
Operation midland report released today.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
In a normal year, we'd all sit back and relax, and watch in horror as the USA election circus rolled into town. We'd feel smug, and glad that British politics never turned into that.

But this ain't a normal year for British politics

Dude... we're going to end up with a New York liberal who has shown strong anti-1st and anti-2nd Amendment tendencies...

We're boned.

Ya'll won't reached to that level.

 whembly wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
In a normal year, we'd all sit back and relax, and watch in horror as the USA election circus rolled into town. We'd feel smug, and glad that British politics never turned into that.

But this ain't a normal year for British politics

Dude... we're going to end up with a New York liberal who has shown strong anti-1st and anti-2nd Amendment tendencies...

We're boned.

Ya'll won't reached to that level.

We have Theresa May who wants it to be legal for the government to intercept the communications of the entire UK population and passed a law which banned the use of everything which affected the brain (except for food, alcohol and tobacco because we all know alcohol and tobacco are really safe).

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
In a normal year, we'd all sit back and relax, and watch in horror as the USA election circus rolled into town. We'd feel smug, and glad that British politics never turned into that.

But this ain't a normal year for British politics

Dude... we're going to end up with a New York liberal who has shown strong anti-1st and anti-2nd Amendment tendencies...

We're boned.

Ya'll won't reached to that level.

We have Theresa May who wants it to be legal for the government to intercept the communications of the entire UK population and passed a law which banned the use of everything which affected the brain (except for food, alcohol and tobacco because we all know alcohol and tobacco are really safe).

Are we really going to play "my Derp is bigger than your Derp?"


But, yeah... that's dumb.

<---coming from a country that has the PRISM Program.

I got nothing on that law banning the brain. Dude... does that include psych meds and the likes? o.O

 whembly wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
In a normal year, we'd all sit back and relax, and watch in horror as the USA election circus rolled into town. We'd feel smug, and glad that British politics never turned into that.

But this ain't a normal year for British politics

Dude... we're going to end up with a New York liberal who has shown strong anti-1st and anti-2nd Amendment tendencies...

We're boned.

Ya'll won't reached to that level.

I doubt if it's any consolation to you, but if Clinton wins, she will take an oath to defend the US constitution, and a lot of people will witness it, so maybe she'll hold true?

Then again, every American President took that oath, and most of them didn't give two hoots for the constitution

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Most people know on dakka know of my support of Scottish independence, but I've got to disagree with the SNP on this one. I wish to hell they'd keep away from this, because they could end up getting more parliamentary sovereignty than they bargained for, especially when it comes to Westminster and another Scottish independence referendum.

They are trying to do what's right in their view, for their population, even if it goes against this myth that all they want is independence. They view remaining in the EU as more important (they voted 45% to become independent, and 62% to remain in the EU).

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


Not having a go at you but my empty wallet will still be empty regardless, and would have remained empty even if we had stayed in the EU.

All this talk of GDP, customs unions, single markets etc etc adds up to a bucket of horsegak as far as I'm concerned.

As I've said before I have no money - how can they threaten to take my money away?

Unless your living off the land and not using any public services, things can most definitely get worse for you. Benefits/job cuts, hospital cuts, council work cuts, tax hikes, food hikes, inflation, and so on.

Herzlos wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Most people know on dakka know of my support of Scottish independence, but I've got to disagree with the SNP on this one. I wish to hell they'd keep away from this, because they could end up getting more parliamentary sovereignty than they bargained for, especially when it comes to Westminster and another Scottish independence referendum.

They are trying to do what's right in their view, for their population, even if it goes against this myth that all they want is independence. They view remaining in the EU as more important (they voted 45% to become independent, and 62% to remain in the EU).

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


Not having a go at you but my empty wallet will still be empty regardless, and would have remained empty even if we had stayed in the EU.

All this talk of GDP, customs unions, single markets etc etc adds up to a bucket of horsegak as far as I'm concerned.

As I've said before I have no money - how can they threaten to take my money away?

Unless your living off the land and not using any public services, things can most definitely get worse for you. Benefits/job cuts, hospital cuts, council work cuts, tax hikes, food hikes, inflation, and so on.

1. You can survive in Scotland in a caravan on less than 2k a year, walking to local farmers and using a rainwater still - I had the misfortune to grow up in such an environment for several years and whilst inflation is a thing, It was before/during the last currency crash. I know at least 2 blokes in my local GW in similar situations. It's not pleasant but it's livable and not quite uncommon. More common is the 4k~ survival in a council flat (2). Cut that in half and the problem will probably right itself after the second or third really cold winter.
2. A lot of benefits provided here are 'permanent' for a given value of permanent. You don't get rent support, instead you're assigned a foul smelling flat in the midst of a perpetual crime scene, but you get to keep it as long as you can survive it, and don't get arrested.
3. Scotland is and always has been poor and with phenomenal wealth inequality with notable exceptions (the tobacco barons for example). Per-capita income could be cut in half, and strictly speaking, not much would change besides perhaps a drastic drop in foreign students. We're already established as a low income economy and our greatest export in 2013 was Whisky, at something like 78% of the national export value. I'd suggest nothing short of an actual civil war will change that, seeing as the greater portion is reported to have been to outside the EU.
4. Thanks to population density and the lack thereof, there are huge proportions of the country that are supported by negligible town councils that have zero or near zero international commerce, or even national level commerce. Now yes, those that do benefit from, or were established because of, extensive infrastructure investments, but with the phenomenal public investment (some of which I understand was EU subsidised) that's been spunked on windfarms for questionable return, you don't see so much new stuff. Less of nothing is still nothing
5. Standard waiting times for NHS non-trivial work is, at least last time I was aware of it. 18 months. If you've survived 18 months on hold, you'll probably survive another 12. Again, not pleasant but 'pleasant standard of living' is not for everyone. Hence the heroin statistics here.

Now in 20 years it'd be a different matter, we're already hemorrhaging competent professionals and technicians in exchange for artists and graphic designers (which had incentives back in Gordon Brown's era and never really went away ) to the point it may be come self-sustaining at the educational level, and we could end up in a situation like, say, Croatia. But over that time period we'll probably have adjusted to yet another unpleasant fact of life for which resin dust and plastic are the greatest comforts.

It's definitely grim for an awful lot of people, but tragically it can always get worse.

The Scottish Tourist Board's latest campaign wrote:It's definitely grim for an awful lot of people, but tragically it can always get worse.

Roll on vacation time.

What's always confused me about the SNP is their desire for Scottish independence whilst retaining Scottish membership of the EU. They complain that Westminster doesn't listen to Scottish needs (and that is true), and they push for more devolved powers. But the EU's purpose is to remove powers away from member states and into a centralised base. To me, it's like the SNP wants to be a vegetarian whilst demanding beef burgers for dinner.

I guess the difference is that they believe that in the EU, they'll at least have a say during the creation of these laws. Westminster does have a bad habit of just dictating policy. But I think they'll regret it when the EU forces them into the euro.

I think you're confusing a group within the EU, with the EU, but that may just be me. Like the group that recieved a paycheck from the EU while wanting out of it.

Well, this is a bit odd...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-citizenship-freedom-of-movement-passport-how-to-keep-parliament-live-move-abroad-a7405196.html

....A way to remain in the EU for those Brits who want to stay in the EU, but dont have an Irish passport, and voted to Remain.
However, I can't see it ever happening, interesting idea though.

I was just going to post that. I'll definitely be applying for one if it becomes an option.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
What's always confused me about the SNP is their desire for Scottish independence whilst retaining Scottish membership of the EU. They complain that Westminster doesn't listen to Scottish needs (and that is true), and they push for more devolved powers. But the EU's purpose is to remove powers away from member states and into a centralised base. To me, it's like the SNP wants to be a vegetarian whilst demanding beef burgers for dinner.

The position that's been articulated to me is that the *specific* things westminster does, such as defence, energy, infrastructure policy and taxation (HS2 is not and will never be of benefit to Scotland if not actively harmful, neither were the Olympics or anything else that all of England doesn't benefit from but London does) is less desirable than the specific things the EU does.

For example a lot of EU policy regarding farming and fisheries would be better directly administered from a Scottish perspective than lumped into the whole of the British industry, simply due to scale and prevailing conditions. Secondly, as i've mentioned before Scotland has a lot more to export to the EU in the form of luxury goods than the UK as a whole, and again would benefit from direct control over it. For all its flaws the EU does at least conceive of small scale improvements over time instead of massive politically driven spending (e.g. the QE Aircraft Carrier and the disaster behind that) which, for the last 20 years or so have not been perceived as benefit to us.

Now I personally would like to live in a pictish version of Switzerland with identical political structures, administration and global economic relationship adjusted to the economy of all of 5~million people. The town/city council and progressive devolution that's come to pass has, to a very basic extent, grown something that resembles it, and membership of the EU without the involvement of the perrenially centrally planned Westminster perspective would only of benefit to that.

 r_squared wrote:
Well, this is a bit odd...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-citizenship-freedom-of-movement-passport-how-to-keep-parliament-live-move-abroad-a7405196.html

....A way to remain in the EU for those Brits who want to stay in the EU, but dont have an Irish passport, and voted to Remain.
However, I can't see it ever happening, interesting idea though.

Very, very interesting.

Seeing as the five presidents report does state that the EU wants to start getting into the National States budgets, I'd say that the control from Brussels is only going to get worse over the next few years.


But now, let's light a small candle for our American Children that apparently really need the British back in their lives.

 welshhoppo wrote:

But now, let's light a small candle for our American Children that apparently really need the British back in their lives.

We'll be alright.

We've survived Obama.

 whembly wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:

But now, let's light a small candle for our American Children that apparently really need the British back in their lives.

We'll be alright.

We've survived Obama.

Are you sure? We could always send the queen back over?

 welshhoppo wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:

But now, let's light a small candle for our American Children that apparently really need the British back in their lives.

We'll be alright.

We've survived Obama.

Are you sure? We could always send the queen back over?

Pshaw... can't have that.

We'd have to start saying Tea and Petrol and stuff like that.

 welshhoppo wrote:
Seeing as the five presidents report does state that the EU wants to start getting into the National States budgets, I'd say that the control from Brussels is only going to get worse over the next few years.

Assuming, of course, the states agree to it.

At least with Scotland in the EU, we might have some say over what happens.

 whembly wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:

But now, let's light a small candle for our American Children that apparently really need the British back in their lives.

We'll be alright.

We've survived Obama.

Are you sure? We could always send the queen back over?

Pshaw... can't have that.

We'd have to start saying Tea and Petrol and stuff like that.

...and rubbish.

How long until the New Year? 2016 can officially do one as far as I'm concerned.

Call flashlights torchs, trucks lorries, and apartments flats.

Bloody Limeys and their strange lingo!

Well, well, well well, well...

I suppose from a British perspective, Farage gets on well with Trump, Trump promised a trade deal with Britain, and the markets will stop blaming Brexit for the world's financial woes.

I'm clutching at straws, but there you go....