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....A way to remain in the EU for those Brits who want to stay in the EU, but dont have an Irish passport, and voted to Remain.
However, I can't see it ever happening, interesting idea though.
Where do I sign up? I think though they should require people to move to the EU after a certain realistic timeframe to maintain those rights. Otherwise it's a bit unreasonable on other EU nationals.
What worries me more is the rhetoric coming from some on the Leave side. Not only is Brexit nonsense still peddled but they also want to stop pro-EU people from making a personal choice on how they want to live their lives and the liberties they wish to hold on to. What comes next prevent pro-EU people from voting in GEs?
Jayne Adye, director of the Get Britain Out campaign described the proposal as divisive and said it was “totally unacceptable” for British people to retain the advantages of EU membership.
“This is an outrage. The EU is now attempting to divide the great British public at the exact moment we need unity. 17.4 million people voted to Leave the EU on 23 June and as a result the UK as a whole will get Brexit,” she said.
“Brexit means laws which impact the people of the UK will be created by accountable politicians in Westminster. It is totally unacceptable for certain citizens in the UK to subject themselves to laws which are created by politicians who are not accountable the British people as a whole. Discriminating against people based on their political views shows there are no depths the EU will not sink to.”
There's only one thing I can say to this Ms Adye is that I have no interest in being part of her vision of the "great British public" and as far as I'm concerned she can take a run and jump on the issue!
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Kilkrazy wrote: For sure, it will have been a bad day for the bookies.
Probably not. Most people vote on the most likely to win candidate and accept that they win but the earnings are small. Only a relatively few people vote on the outsider. So bookies may have a few, relatively, high profile cases to pay out on but this is more than made up from those that lost out on voting for the most likely. Same thing happened when Leicester won the premiership (though Gary Lineker understandably was happy about that one!)
How long until the New Year? 2016 can officially do one as far as I'm concerned.
I'm now calling 2016 "WTF year?"
Automatically Appended Next Post:
A Town Called Malus wrote: So Nigel Farage is going to be the new Tony Blair, trailing after Trump like a puppy hoping to get a treat and a scratch from its new master.
So he's ruined the country and divided it for a long time and now leaving it to feast on it's own carcass. What a man of outstanding British character! (Maybe he should have made the Brexit slogan "Make me Rich" instead)
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/11/09 19:41:33
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
@Whirlwind Surely it really boils down to a binary choice? Article 50 gets invoked. You can either stay in the UK as a UK citizen or move to an EU member state or otherwise and claim citizenship with whatever benefits that brings?
Compel wrote: Pfffft, enough with this brexit stuff and the stuff that's going on in the States, can we take a moment to discuss the real worldwide tragedy.
Compel wrote: Pfffft, enough with this brexit stuff and the stuff that's going on in the States, can we take a moment to discuss the real worldwide tragedy.
Poundland were doing well with their tiny bars of the triangular stuff why not just shrink them, or just sell it in larger bars and give it a luxury price tag? I only buy the big yard long things anyway.
Mr. Burning wrote: @Whirlwind Surely it really boils down to a binary choice? Article 50 gets invoked. You can either stay in the UK as a UK citizen or move to an EU member state or otherwise and claim citizenship with whatever benefits that brings?
I'm genuinely curious.
That's sort of what I said wasn't it? Other than saying there should be a bit of a timeframe before people have to move (so they can get their lives in order, find a job and so on). I was thinking that in some ways it would only be fair on those holding 'EU passports' that they return to contribute to the EU society? Also unless the proposal for Brexit is no-one without a British passport is allowed in then there will still be EU citizens working in the country for some foreseeable future anyway.
What shocks me more is the desire to limit peoples freedoms because they don't like that some (or a lot) of people might reject the idea of Brexit and choose a different path. This type of rhetoric really has been ramped up in recent months.
As for Toblerone, it's not a surprise. It's a way companies can keep the price the same they just offer less. Cocoa is becoming more in demand and yields aren't keeping up (in fact there are concerns that one bad virus/fungus could wipe chocolate manufacturing out because we have 'inbred' the plants to such an extent they are very vulnerable now to diseases; the same goes for Banana plants). Many food companies have been doing this for years, they just don't do it in such an extreme way. They slowly decrease weight of bread, or packet sizes, numbers of beans in a tin etc over time that you don't really notice because the reductions are small and not that noticeable on a week by week basis - it's only when you compares packets over three years that you see the actual differences.
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
Mr. Burning wrote: @Whirlwind Surely it really boils down to a binary choice? Article 50 gets invoked. You can either stay in the UK as a UK citizen or move to an EU member state or otherwise and claim citizenship with whatever benefits that brings?
I'm genuinely curious.
A UK citizen can't be deprived of their citizenship.
If the EU offers an EU passport to any UK citizen who wants one, the government can't prevent them.
Why would Brexiteers care if someone wants an EU passport? What harm does it do them?
A UK citizen can't be deprived of their citizenship.
If the EU offers an EU passport to any UK citizen who wants one, the government can't prevent them.
Why would Brexiteers care if someone wants an EU passport? What harm does it do them?
To be honest given the direction the UK is heading I'd quite happily surrender my British citizenship and replace it with EU citizenship. Each day I like less and less to be associated as British.
I think from the Brexiter's point of view if you get to the point where 60% of the population are still members of the EU then it calls into question the point of Brexit in the first place. Also the UK population will start to be able to have a say on what policies the EU introduces and that could result in policies that the UK would have to implement which goes against the overbearing nationalistic agenda that is currently being peddled.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/11/09 20:36:55
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
Mr. Burning wrote: @Whirlwind Surely it really boils down to a binary choice? Article 50 gets invoked. You can either stay in the UK as a UK citizen or move to an EU member state or otherwise and claim citizenship with whatever benefits that brings?
I'm genuinely curious.
A UK citizen can't be deprived of their citizenship.
If the EU offers an EU passport to any UK citizen who wants one, the government can't prevent them.
Why would Brexiteers care if someone wants an EU passport? What harm does it do them?
Until something like that comes to pass though I cant be sure how I feel, I'm certainly not going full pants on head meltdown. It does feel wrong though.
A UK citizen can't be deprived of their citizenship.
If the EU offers an EU passport to any UK citizen who wants one, the government can't prevent them.
Why would Brexiteers care if someone wants an EU passport? What harm does it do them?
To be honest given the direction the UK is heading I'd quite happily surrender my British citizenship and replace it with EU citizenship. Each day I like less and less to be associated as British.
I think from the Brexiter's point of view if you get to the point where 60% of the population are still members of the EU then it calls into question the point of Brexit in the first place. Also the UK population will start to be able to have a say on what policies the EU introduces and that could result in policies that the UK would have to implement which goes against the overbearing nationalistic agenda that is currently being peddled.
Lets be fair, if 60% want to be members of the EU then there should be moves to siddle back in.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/09 21:14:11
1) I doubt 60% of people would ever claim it. Even if the whole country wanted to be part of the EU I doubt 60% of people would be bothered to fill in the paperwork.
2) Who cares about all this crap. I don't care about Brexit or Trump any more, now I know chocolate is at risk. All the plants could die out? WTF? This should now be the world priority.
insaniak wrote: Sometimes, Exterminatus is the only option.
And sometimes, it's just a case of too much scotch combined with too many buttons...
Steve steveson wrote: 1) I doubt 60% of people would ever claim it. Even if the whole country wanted to be part of the EU I doubt 60% of people would be bothered to fill in the paperwork.
That depends on the paperwork you have to fill in if you don't sign up to it (so work/holiday visa's etc). If you have to fill in paperwork every time you go to France/Spain for a holiday or a business trip that could get stale real fast.
2) Who cares about all this crap. I don't care about Brexit or Trump any more, now I know chocolate is at risk. All the plants could die out? WTF? This should now be the world priority.
These sort of things are a real risk to a lot of plants, even down to wheat. They have been 'bred' to maximise yields, taste better and so on. However in the process much of the genetic diversity has been lost and just like us, inbreeding makes them more vulnerable to disease and fungi (because natural selection produces a genetic variety that makes some more resistant than others). That's why there is a seed bank in Norway(?). The idea is that if the worst happens and we lose a major crop type there will be a bank of seeds we could resort back to. But time is running out, more varieties become extinct each year.
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
Steve steveson wrote: 1) I doubt 60% of people would ever claim it. Even if the whole country wanted to be part of the EU I doubt 60% of people would be bothered to fill in the paperwork.
That depends on the paperwork you have to fill in if you don't sign up to it (so work/holiday visa's etc). If you have to fill in paperwork every time you go to France/Spain for a holiday or a business trip that could get stale real fast.
Exactly, for a lot of people, even the rabid Brexiteers, if they realise it's a choice between filling in this form once, or a VISA application / Non-EU migration check every time they go on holiday, having an EU citizenship suddenly becomes a no-brainer.
Unless there's a high annual fee, there's pretty much no downside.
As someone who travels to Europe for work/fun, I'll most likely be grabbing one for the whole family.
It will be interesting if more people get these than voted leave, though.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/10 09:13:31
You're prepared to give up your citizenship in exchange for the convenience of not having to use a passport on holiday?
I liked Europe with borders and different currencies - each country felt distinct; i just don't get that now.
In my mind there is no such thing as Belgium now - it's too similar to France to be noticed when driving through.
Them and Luxembourg.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-px27tzAtVwZpZ4ljopV2w "ashtrays and teacups do not count as cover"
"jack of all trades, master of none; certainly better than a master of one"
The Ordo Reductor - the guy's who make wonderful things like the Landraider Achillies, but can't use them in battle..
SirDonlad wrote: You're prepared to give up your citizenship in exchange for the convenience of not having to use a passport on holiday?
I liked Europe with borders and different currencies - each country felt distinct; i just don't get that now.
In my mind there is no such thing as Belgium now - it's too similar to France to be noticed when driving through.
Them and Luxembourg.
Why does this distinctiveness matter?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/10 14:01:09
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
Watch the dave gormann programme called 'America unchained' and you'll see where i'm coming from.
edit: Picard fought the borg, so should we!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/11/10 14:04:21
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-px27tzAtVwZpZ4ljopV2w "ashtrays and teacups do not count as cover"
"jack of all trades, master of none; certainly better than a master of one"
The Ordo Reductor - the guy's who make wonderful things like the Landraider Achillies, but can't use them in battle..
Or you could just explain it to me so I don't have to waste time watching something that can't possibly be as good as a primary source, unless you're actually Dave Gormann. I'm interested in your reasoning. Not someone else's. I'll be upfront about the fact that I doubt we'll agree, but it ' snot going to do either of us a favour if I'm meant to try to puzzle together what you feel based on a third party source that I would have little reason to interpret charitably.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
Or you could drop the attitude and check the programme synopsis?
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-px27tzAtVwZpZ4ljopV2w "ashtrays and teacups do not count as cover"
"jack of all trades, master of none; certainly better than a master of one"
The Ordo Reductor - the guy's who make wonderful things like the Landraider Achillies, but can't use them in battle..
By 'attitude' i was referring to the way you wrote a post to say nothing but "Why does this distinctiveness matter?"
Good contribution there, added a lot to the discussion.
I want to assume you are an individual with your own unique qualities that make you interesting, that which makes you distinct from other dakka members; but i accept thats not where we are and following the crowd makes some people feel 'safe'. (anonymity amongst the crowd).
But as was said in a song; "If everybody looked the same, we'd get tired of looking at each other.."
watch from 1:11 to 1:50 on this dave gormann press release about the program.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-px27tzAtVwZpZ4ljopV2w "ashtrays and teacups do not count as cover"
"jack of all trades, master of none; certainly better than a master of one"
The Ordo Reductor - the guy's who make wonderful things like the Landraider Achillies, but can't use them in battle..
SirDonlad wrote: You're prepared to give up your citizenship in exchange for the convenience of not having to use a passport on holiday?
Who said anything about giving up citizenship?
It's also potentially a lot worse than just needing a passport to go on holiday (or work). You'll potentially need to apply for a VISA, and you'll get to join the inevitably enormous "Non-EU" line at any arrivals terminal. Adding an hour and a bit of hassle to an annual holiday isn't a big deal, but the more you do it the better a prospect it'll be.
I quite like the current within-EU fast track that lets me get off one flight and onto another in an EU country within 45 minutes. I'd quite happily get an EU citizenship pass if it meant I got to save an hour every time I tried to go to Europe.
Plus, I'd quite like it to show in the statistics that I value being an EU citizen, whilst upsetting Brexiteers at the same time
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/10 14:57:38
Herzlos, i owe you an apology - i've been so focused on American politics of late my head got a little stuck there; The UK allows for dual citizenship, it's the USA which does not.
https://www.gov.uk/dual-citizenship
Another Cabinet source said: “They will be allowed to remain in Britain. But it is important that reciprocal agreements are made with the EU to ensure that British people abroad get the same rights.”
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/10 15:12:05
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-px27tzAtVwZpZ4ljopV2w "ashtrays and teacups do not count as cover"
"jack of all trades, master of none; certainly better than a master of one"
The Ordo Reductor - the guy's who make wonderful things like the Landraider Achillies, but can't use them in battle..
That clip didn't really make much sense to me, to be honest. There's no argument for WHY two places should look different, only an assertion that they should.
To me, trying to enforce (I'm not sure that's the right word... encourage, extol?) diversity geographically seems a bit odd. Why does, for example, French cuisine have to be distinct from Hungarian? To me, it makes more sense to make a distinction between "people who like bouillabaisse" and "people who do not like bouillabaisse" than simply assuming that bouillabaisse has to be French because it originated there.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
The differences between nations are what makes them interesting!
I thought that argument was 'case closed' tbh.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-px27tzAtVwZpZ4ljopV2w "ashtrays and teacups do not count as cover"
"jack of all trades, master of none; certainly better than a master of one"
The Ordo Reductor - the guy's who make wonderful things like the Landraider Achillies, but can't use them in battle..
Why do the differences have to be between countries though? Why can't I enjoy haggis in Helsinki just as well as in Glasgow?* The diversity will still be there, it just won't be concentrated to distinct geographical places. Surely the ability to enjoy things no matter where you are is worth something.
*Trick question: you can't enjoy haggis anywhere!
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
SirDonlad wrote: Herzlos, i owe you an apology - i've been so focused on American politics of late my head got a little stuck there; The UK allows for dual citizenship, it's the USA which does not.
https://www.gov.uk/dual-citizenship
Sorry about that.
No problem. There's an awful lot of information flying about at the moment.
I'm not sure it'd be restricted to UK citizens that are resident in the EU, that'd be an absolute minimum though.
SirDonlad wrote: Herzlos, i owe you an apology - i've been so focused on American politics of late my head got a little stuck there; The UK allows for dual citizenship, it's the USA which does not.
https://www.gov.uk/dual-citizenship
Sorry about that.
Actually... the US does allow dual... as long as you were an American first.
If you immigrate to the US and seek citizenship, yes you do have to give up your homeland citizenship.
SirDonlad wrote: You're prepared to give up your citizenship in exchange for the convenience of not having to use a passport on holiday?
I liked Europe with borders and different currencies - each country felt distinct; i just don't get that now.
In my mind there is no such thing as Belgium now - it's too similar to France to be noticed when driving through.
Them and Luxembourg.
Why does this distinctiveness matter?
Hey, we went to war to protect Belgium in WW1. We wouldn't have cared if it was just France.
Kidding and over simplifying. But I quite like the idea of independent states. Otherwise you might as well get rid of all the borders and call it Europe.
I mean, that is the way the EU is going. They might as well be open about it.
DS:90-S+G+++M++B-IPw40k03+D+A++/fWD-R++T(T)DM+ Warmachine MKIII record 39W/0D/6L
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Why do the differences have to be between countries though? Why can't I enjoy haggis in Helsinki just as well as in Glasgow?* The diversity will still be there, it just won't be concentrated to distinct geographical places. Surely the ability to enjoy things no matter where you are is worth something.
*Trick question: you can't enjoy haggis anywhere!
Because,. and this might shock you, some people enjoy haggis - *when it's done right*. If your view of it is because you've been exposed to it as industrial waste instead a of a non-mass produced artisanal maximum-use-of-the-animal product with a proud and noble history going back longer than, for example, The United States then by all means you'd dislike it. I have a similar distaste for Kæstur hákarl.
Consequently, it's entirely legitimate to want to live in a country that is suitably isolated from what I like to call 'Globalist Beige', or at least the parts of which you don't find to your taste. They may also want to do it in a country which has established that yes, marijuana is perfectly fine to use within controlled circumstances and as such the public purse has established infrastructure for its safe and lawful consumption.
Borders and national sovereignty give options, they also insulate people who don't have a say in the matter from the unwanted side effects. Legalised prostitution for example.
Some people find the idea that other people can be happy offensive, and will prefer causing harm to self improvement.
@AlmightyWalrus: I believe it to be the laws which change a populus and their culture, and the laws extend up to a border.
I'm interested in architecture, and the way the buildings in dutch cities are laid out made me think about building regulations changing the look of a nation - we had it with taxation based on the bottom floorplan area of a dwelling which led to the classic Tudor house shape.
I think that extends to just about anything going on in a country, including food, clothing, and lifestyle.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-px27tzAtVwZpZ4ljopV2w "ashtrays and teacups do not count as cover"
"jack of all trades, master of none; certainly better than a master of one"
The Ordo Reductor - the guy's who make wonderful things like the Landraider Achillies, but can't use them in battle..
(Maybe he should have made the Brexit slogan "Make me Rich" instead)
