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Train fares in Britain will go up by an average of 2.3% from 2 January, the rail industry has announced.
The increase covers both regulated fares, which includes season tickets, and unregulated fares, such as off-peak leisure tickets.
The rise in regulated fares had already been capped at July's Retail Prices Index inflation rate of 1.9%. Unregulated fares face no cap.
Campaigners said passengers would be disappointed by the increase.
"Passengers will now want to see the industry's investment deliver a more reliable day-to-day railway," said Anthony Smith, chief executive of the watchdog Transport Focus.
"The government should consider setting rail fare rises around the Consumer Prices Index instead to bring rail fares into line with other recognised measures of inflation."
Lizzie Green, a London commuter, said: "Given that the trains are so irregular and the delays are so often it seems like a bit of a cheeky increase."
Some unregulated fares are likely to rise by considerably more than 2.3%.
That far outstrips the inflation rate, which is currently running at 0.9%, as measured by the Consumer Prices Index.
Analysis: Richard Westcott, BBC transport correspondent
The pace of fare increases has slowed a little in recent years, but it follows a decade's worth of steeper rises which began in 2004.
It's all because successive governments have changed the way they split the bill for running the service, so that passengers pay more and other taxpayers pay less.
About 70% of the total network cost is met from ticket sales now. It used to be about 50%.
Ministers are spending record amounts upgrading the service, which is creaking under huge demand for train travel that no-one saw coming.
But it hasn't stopped punctuality levels falling well below target.
The Rail Delivery Group, which represents train operators and Network Rail, said the industry was working to simplify fares and improve services.
"We understand how passengers feel when fares go up, and we know that in some places they haven't always got the service they pay for," said Paul Plummer, chief executive of the Rail Delivery Group.
"Around 97p in every pound passengers pay goes back into running and improving services."
The increases cover fares in England, Scotland and Wales. Northern Ireland is treated separately.
Compensation
Meanwhile, more than 84,000 passengers on Southern Rail are to receive compensation for the disruption they have experienced during 2016.
The government said the delays were caused by "Network Rail track failures, engineering works, unacceptably poor performance by the operator and the actions of the RMT union."
Season ticket holders will be able to claim a month's compensation, directly into their bank account.
To qualify, customers must have paid for at least 12 weeks of travel, between 24 April and 31 December 2016.
From 11 December passengers on Southern Rail will additionally be able to claim compensation if their train is more than 15 minutes late.
I live in Canterbury
Season ticket from Canterbury to London is now more than £5000
Brace yourselves for the end of the world again. It's on the internet, so it must be true.
This time, the culprit is the rogue planet Nibiru, aka Planet X, whose erratic orbit will bring it close enough to our planet to mess everything up totally and kill almost all the life, according to 187,000 websites that pop up if you Google "Nibiru December 2016."
Nibiru, they say, is 10 times as big as Earth and has a long, skinny elliptical orbit that takes it way out yonder beyond Pluto. But once every several thousand years, it comes barreling back toward the sun and bounces through the solar system like a bull in a china shop.
The frenzy started last January when a couple of astronomy guys said they might have found a ninth planet about three times as far away as Pluto. They named it "Planet Nine," displaying a complete lack of imagination. The alleged planet has never been directly observed and it has approximately zero things in common with the mythical Nibiru. But the Nibiru people went wild and lit up the web with claims of a global cover-up of its impending world-destroying arrival.
2016 is almost over, so the doomsayer buzz is reaching a crescendo, calling this December the zero hour for the mother of all cataclysms. The Nibiru prophets are batting a solid .000 so far, dating back to 2003, 2007, 2012 and last December, along with April, July and September of this year.
But internet fear-mongers have a good feeling about the latest ETA, what with all this year's earthquakes, hurricanes, tsunamis, droughts, fires, volcanoes and assorted other signs of the apocalypse.
Snopes and NASA have dutifully updated their declarations that this is all a bunch of hooey with a clear tone of frustration. How many different ways can you say the pseudo-scientific claims of internet hoaxers lack any credible evidence? At all? There are no pictures of Nibiru, no astronomical data, no archaeological, geological or historical records indicating it exists.
But then you hear somebody like true believer Gordon James Gianninoto, who in a calm monotone paints vivid word pictures of a global calamity he's spent his life announcing and around which he has constructed a sprawling mythology. You kind of want to believe. too. It'll kill us all, but man, is it going to be awesome.
Here you can listen to Gordon on Coast to Coast with George Noory, the spooky radio show that airs from 1 a.m.until dawn.
It's a long show, so here's the short version:
Gordon says a line of mountains down the middle of the Atlantic Ocean from Iceland to Antarctica will start snapping like a whip when Nibiru's gigantic gravity takes hold.
Nibiru will be on the sun side of Earth, he said, so while that side of Earth faces the sun, Nibiru’s gravity will suck all those mountains loose from the bottom of the ocean and shake them like a Jack Russell terrier with a snake in his mouth. But when night comes, boing! the mountains snap back down like they were on a rubber band. Six-hundred-foot tidal waves and 200 mph winds are going to be be the least of our worries.
After a few weeks of this, Gordon says, Earth’s whole crust will come loose from the mantle until it’s just floating there on a giant orb of lava, sliding all over the place, making earthquakes and giant rocks shooting up in the air and mountains crumbling into the roiling seas.
Just when you thought things couldn't get any worse, Nibiru passes over the north pole of Earth and slide the crust along like a towel over a bowling ball until the eastern tip of Brazil is the new north pole. The United States will be on the whole other side of the globe, about where China is, only upside-down.
As you might imagine, civilization will be very not on fleek at all after all that. But Gordon says once all the governments and countries and economies collapse, the unselfish extra-terrestrials will come and give “unspecified help” to unselfish survival communities.
So we’ve got that to look forward to.
If Jan. 1, 2017, arrives with our planet still intact, don't think we're out of the woods. A sizable minority of dissenters believe the approach velocity of Nibiru has been miscalculated, and Earth won't get tattooed until next December.
.. Well.. resolves the Brexit thing anyway eh ?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/02 10:39:15
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
filbert wrote: The whole point of MP's salary being lower than the private sector is very deliberate; being an MP should be an altruistic thing - you are doing for the benefit of the country, not your pocket. If you raise the salary cap, then you start to attract people who are in it for their own pocket, not the good of the country. Ideally, you want people who want to be MPs because they want to help run the country securely not people who want to be an MP so they can coin it.
Of course, there is an argument to say that a lot of MPs are only in it for their own benefit anyway. There are a lot more perks and benefits and money to be made after leaving office that more than compensate for the lower salary.
Yes but if you cut entire wage you make it even less worthwhile AND cut down potential candinates for filthy rich or those who are backed by external money(so lobbying has even more power).
Obviously matching private sectors isn't viable(especially as you don't need to be qualified at all to be one. You just need to sell yourself well enough to voters. Lot easier than many profitable private sector opportunities) but cutting salary to 0 makes it way too hard to get good candinates and creates huge conflic of interests.
If only way you can AFFORD to be politician is get money from companies/organizations are you really going to make policies that hurt those who gave you possibility to even be one in the first place?
I think, Tom, I saw you about the place once or twice.
Possibly.
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
Brace yourselves for the end of the world again. It's on the internet, so it must be true.
This time, the culprit is the rogue planet Nibiru, aka Planet X, whose erratic orbit will bring it close enough to our planet to mess everything up totally and kill almost all the life, according to 187,000 websites that pop up if you Google "Nibiru December 2016."
Nibiru, they say, is 10 times as big as Earth and has a long, skinny elliptical orbit that takes it way out yonder beyond Pluto. But once every several thousand years, it comes barreling back toward the sun and bounces through the solar system like a bull in a china shop.
The frenzy started last January when a couple of astronomy guys said they might have found a ninth planet about three times as far away as Pluto. They named it "Planet Nine," displaying a complete lack of imagination. The alleged planet has never been directly observed and it has approximately zero things in common with the mythical Nibiru. But the Nibiru people went wild and lit up the web with claims of a global cover-up of its impending world-destroying arrival.
2016 is almost over, so the doomsayer buzz is reaching a crescendo, calling this December the zero hour for the mother of all cataclysms. The Nibiru prophets are batting a solid .000 so far, dating back to 2003, 2007, 2012 and last December, along with April, July and September of this year.
But internet fear-mongers have a good feeling about the latest ETA, what with all this year's earthquakes, hurricanes, tsunamis, droughts, fires, volcanoes and assorted other signs of the apocalypse.
Snopes and NASA have dutifully updated their declarations that this is all a bunch of hooey with a clear tone of frustration. How many different ways can you say the pseudo-scientific claims of internet hoaxers lack any credible evidence? At all? There are no pictures of Nibiru, no astronomical data, no archaeological, geological or historical records indicating it exists.
But then you hear somebody like true believer Gordon James Gianninoto, who in a calm monotone paints vivid word pictures of a global calamity he's spent his life announcing and around which he has constructed a sprawling mythology. You kind of want to believe. too. It'll kill us all, but man, is it going to be awesome.
Here you can listen to Gordon on Coast to Coast with George Noory, the spooky radio show that airs from 1 a.m.until dawn.
It's a long show, so here's the short version:
Gordon says a line of mountains down the middle of the Atlantic Ocean from Iceland to Antarctica will start snapping like a whip when Nibiru's gigantic gravity takes hold.
Nibiru will be on the sun side of Earth, he said, so while that side of Earth faces the sun, Nibiru’s gravity will suck all those mountains loose from the bottom of the ocean and shake them like a Jack Russell terrier with a snake in his mouth. But when night comes, boing! the mountains snap back down like they were on a rubber band. Six-hundred-foot tidal waves and 200 mph winds are going to be be the least of our worries.
After a few weeks of this, Gordon says, Earth’s whole crust will come loose from the mantle until it’s just floating there on a giant orb of lava, sliding all over the place, making earthquakes and giant rocks shooting up in the air and mountains crumbling into the roiling seas.
Just when you thought things couldn't get any worse, Nibiru passes over the north pole of Earth and slide the crust along like a towel over a bowling ball until the eastern tip of Brazil is the new north pole. The United States will be on the whole other side of the globe, about where China is, only upside-down.
As you might imagine, civilization will be very not on fleek at all after all that. But Gordon says once all the governments and countries and economies collapse, the unselfish extra-terrestrials will come and give “unspecified help” to unselfish survival communities.
So we’ve got that to look forward to.
If Jan. 1, 2017, arrives with our planet still intact, don't think we're out of the woods. A sizable minority of dissenters believe the approach velocity of Nibiru has been miscalculated, and Earth won't get tattooed until next December.
.. Well.. resolves the Brexit thing anyway eh ?
Frankly, being crushed by flying mountains would come as somewhat of a relief, at least I'd never have to listen to anyone bang on about Brexit ever again. Thank feth.
"All their ferocity was turned outwards, against enemies of the State, foreigners, traitors, saboteurs, thought-criminals" - Orwell, 1984
Ketara did his first degree in Canterbury. He also organised three jolly good fun 40K tournaments.
At one of them, there was about a foot of snow during lunchtime and some of us got snowed into the city, it being at the bottom of a valley. Excellent fun, except that my hotel's chef was snowed out so no cooked breakfast for me.
Automatically Appended Next Post: To get back to the topic, is there is a transcript of the TalkTalk Radio interview with the new Richmond Park MP?
(I used to live in Richmond, and I've got an affection for the borough still. If only I had not moved out when I did, I would now be a millionaire and retire.)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/03 00:42:12
Interesting report from OFSTED highlighting the problem of badly performing schools in different areas of the country. For instance, half the schools in Liverpool do not achieve the level of good.
The interesting point is that mapping the school performance with the Leave vote shows a strong correlation. This is not a dig at Leavers saying they are ill-educated, it is another indication that long-term deprivation in areas had led to people (rightly) feeling neglected and hard done by.
It's obvious that education is key to people improving their lives, and it really is an area where individuals particularly children cannot pull themselves up by their bootstraps.
Ironic that the government has supposedly committed x billion £ to linking 90% of homes to fibre broadband by 2021 for the digital economy, but half the children in Liverpool don't get a decent basic education.
Kilkrazy wrote: Interesting report from OFSTED highlighting the problem of badly performing schools in different areas of the country. For instance, half the schools in Liverpool do not achieve the level of good.
The interesting point is that mapping the school performance with the Leave vote shows a strong correlation. This is not a dig at Leavers saying they are ill-educated, it is another indication that long-term deprivation in areas had led to people (rightly) feeling neglected and hard done by.
It's obvious that education is key to people improving their lives, and it really is an area where individuals particularly children cannot pull themselves up by their bootstraps.
Ironic that the government has supposedly committed x billion £ to linking 90% of homes to fibre broadband by 2021 for the digital economy, but half the children in Liverpool don't get a decent basic education.
It is unfortunately an ongoing cycle that successive UK governments have failed to get a grip on.
An area with poorly educated (relatively) popultion limits companies access to high grade workers. They hence set up shop somewhere further south. The more socially mobile (and likely better educated) move with the jobs. That takes money and investment fromt he area.
Therefore there's less money to invest back into the schools. The better teachers move south (because they can get paid more) and the cycle repeats. It doesn't help that the Tories have little incentive to invest in the North as there are few votes for them and in reality over the generational timescales we are talking about Labour have not been in power long enough to implement real change long term (although opening up Universities was a step in the right direction).
The ironic thing is that the EU being less politically biased by the UK Labour/Tory north/south split meant that there was funding coming through the system to improve areas in the north and make them more attractive. That will all disappear in a few years given the current direction.
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
Also, I don't think much of new Richmound Park MP Sarah Olney, who flees intereviews when they become difficult. Here's the full transcript of that car crash interview between herself and talkRadio host Julia Hartley-Brewer:
Spoiler:
Julia Hartley-Brewer: ‘My first question, absolutely the most crucial question, when is the second by-election going to be held?’
Sarah Olney: ‘The second by-election?’
JHB: ‘Well we don’t really know whether voters really knew what they were voting for when they elected you so shouldn’t we have a second by-election – you want a second EU referendum don’t you?’
SO: ‘I was very clear in my campaign exactly what I was standing for and the voters have returned me to Parliament with a clear mandate.’
JHB: ‘A clear mandate but less than 50 per cent of the voters of Richmond voted for you, are you sure you’ve got that mandate?’
SO: ‘Well I won’t the vote last night in the by-election and we’ve overturned a huge Conservative majority here.’
JHB: ‘You have and yet you have questioned the EU referendum vote. You said that one of the big issues on which you stood - I mean we thought Heathrow would be the big issue, there wasn’t actually a single candidate who was campaigning for a third runway for Heathrow, so Heathrow became a dud issue in the by-election, it became all about Brexit. In what way have you got a mandate from the people of Richmond - if you don’t have more than 50 per cent of the vote the vote in the EU referendum on June 23rd was a much clearer mandate, wasn’t it?’
SO: ‘Well to be fair I campaigned on that issue in this by-election and I won a clear majority of the votes last night.’
JHB: ‘You absolutely did but your margin of victory was only about the same as the margin of victory in the EU referendum – about 4.5 per cent, in which case again, shouldn’t we re-run the by-election to be clear?’
SO: ‘We accept the result of the referendum – what we’re saying is we think there should be a further vote on the terms before we make the final decision to leave.’
JHB: ‘Did your party leader Tim Farron mention that before and did anyone else on the Remain campaign mention that on June 23rd?’
‘It’s the…er… development since the referendum.’
JHB: ‘So we’re allowed to change our policy after the referendum and then go back to revisit the referendum – is that what we’re doing?’
SO: ‘Sorry I missed that.’
JHB: ‘Well I’m just a bit confused because we had a remain campaign, we had a leave campaign, just as you’ve run a campaign, Zac Goldsmith ran a campaign, Christian Wolmar from the Labour party. Voters knew what they were voting for in your by-election, they knew what they were voting for in the EU referendum. Why do we think that one election should be re-run and one shouldn’t?’
SO: ‘Well in the referendum it wasn’t clear what people voted for – there wasn’t a clear manifesto.’
JHB: ‘I was clear.’
SO: ‘There wasn’t a clear manifesto set up for the terms of leaving – we leaved for departure but not a destination, there was no clear manifesto for what happens to our membership of the single market…’
JHB: ‘Yes there was – the Remain campaign said we were going to leave the single market if we voted out.’
Long pause
JHB: ‘Yes they did, they repeated it every single leading member of the Remain campaign said a vote to leave the EU was a vote to Leave the single market. Nothing unclear about that at all.’
Sarah’s aide: ‘'I'm really sorry but Sarah has to leave now.'
JHB: ‘No she doesn't. Sarah, if you want to be an elected a Member of Parliament I think you should probably be able to answer some simple questions about your policy. Can you get Sarah back on the line please?'
Aide: ‘I’m sorry about that, she’s got another interview now.’
JHB: ‘Can you get Sarah back on the line please. I don't know who you are, we've waited an hour to have this interview, if she doesn't want to answer questions from a radio station perhaps she's not fit to be an MP.’
Aide: ‘I’m very sorry she’s got another interview now.’
JHB: ‘Has she got another interview? That’s funny because she was booked in for this time.’
After a long pause, JHB told listeners: ‘So, that’s the Liberal Democrats, folks.’
It's a fair question though. If the result of one election can be disputed on the grounds that the voters didn't know what they were voting for then why can't others? Besides, people can change their minds at any time too. Maybe they already regret voting LibDem? If so then we need to have a second vote to make sure that they're still ok with it.
Also, if this by election was all about Brexit and not the expansion of Heathrow, then depending on what way you look at it, there's some evidence to suggest that people have gone off Remain. In the referendum, about 73% of Richmound Park voted to Remain. But now nearly six months down the line, giving the choice between a remain candidate and a leave candidate, the remainer only won over the leaver by about five percent (49.68% to 45.15%). Considering all the other candidates didn't win anywhere near as many votes as the LibDem and Conservative candidates you could argue that it was a two horse race between a remainer and a leaver. And if every voter from Richmound who still intended to remain in the EU backed the remainer LibDem, then that would mean the remain vote fell from 73% to 50%
However, I am very aware that in truth it's not as clear cut as this, because there was still a massive swing of about 30% towards the LibDems. Also none of this factors in the differences in voter turn out between the referendum and the by-election. Nor does it factor in voter opinions of the actual candidates themselves. All it really goes to show is that figures can be manipulated to give any conclusion you want. You always have to be careful about that.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/12/03 11:42:46
It was particulary nauseating to see Alastair Carmichael, Lib Dem MP for Orkney and Shetlands, join in the Richmond celebrations.
This is what two Scottish judges said about Carmichael when he was in court over the Frenchgate affair:
"We had no concerns about the credibility and reliability of the witnesses, with one exception." A teller of "blatant" lies. "Unimpressive," his behaviour demonstrating "a lack of candour", "at best disingenuous, at worst evasive and self-serving" in his actions.
And yet, there he was, banging on about a Lib Dem come back, with Tim 'Ethical' Farron standing next to him...
And you wonder why I despise the Lib Dems...
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Future War Cultist wrote: Also, I don't think much of new Richmound Park MP Sarah Olney, who flees intereviews when they become difficult. Here's the full transcript of that car crash interview between herself and talkRadio host Julia Hartley-Brewer:
It's a fair question though. If the result of one election can be disputed on the grounds that the voters didn't know what they were voting for then why can't others? Besides, people can change their minds at any time too. Maybe they already regret voting LibDem? If so then we need to have a second vote to make sure that they're still ok with it.
Yet there is at least the opportunity to vote again in 4 years time where there will be defined manifesto's and an idea how they want to run the country. The difference with Brexit is that despite it being pretty much a 50:50 result there appears to be a hardening of the approach (that no one had any idea how it would work) that is dragging 50% of the allowed voters in a direction that is completely opposite. There is no opportunity to rejoin the EU in 4 years and so on every 5 years or so (that's despite the fact that as I pointed out on the previous page given the voting proportion by age that the anti-EU view is only likely to be prevalent for the next 10 years, given current polls).
The interview was always going to be a bit of a car crash. A new (and likely politically naïve) MP goes on the radio with a very anti-Brexit interviewer isn't going to go well. Especially after she has probably had limited sleep the day before and likely has a few celebratory drinks as well (which probably endeared a bit of a 'take the world on' approach without adequate preparation. I'm sure she will learn from the experience.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/03 13:37:29
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
It looks as if Manuel Valls is likely to be the left's candidate to stand against Fillon. It's a shame Juppe got knocked out this early on. I'm inclined to say Fillon would most likely be better for us, but both candidates seem determined to redraw what 'Europe' means.
Ketara wrote: It looks as if Manuel Valls is likely to be the left's candidate to stand against Fillon. It's a shame Juppe got knocked out this early on. I'm inclined to say Fillon would most likely be better for us, but both candidates seem determined to redraw what 'Europe' means.
There is no skilled or cunning politician in the UK, and hasn't been for a long time, who could have exploited any divisions in France ahead of Article 50 negotiations.
I don't think it makes any difference who wins IMO.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
welshhoppo wrote: Hold on, did everyone in this thread do their degree in Canterbury?
I watched a Richard Burton film in which he was killed in Canterbury. Can't remember what it was about
Richard Burton!!!!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/03 18:13:13
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: It was particulary nauseating to see Alastair Carmichael, Lib Dem MP for Orkney and Shetlands, join in the Richmond celebrations.
This is what two Scottish judges said about Carmichael when he was in court over the Frenchgate affair:
"We had no concerns about the credibility and reliability of the witnesses, with one exception." A teller of "blatant" lies. "Unimpressive," his behaviour demonstrating "a lack of candour", "at best disingenuous, at worst evasive and self-serving" in his actions.
And yet, there he was, banging on about a Lib Dem come back, with Tim 'Ethical' Farron standing next to him...
And you wonder why I despise the Lib Dems...
I have always distrusted Lib Dem MP's but find their counsellors quite effective. My local Lib Dems are pretty good. Which is their downfall, they grow support at a true grass roots level then cock it all up when they get a sniff of Westminster.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: It was particulary nauseating to see Alastair Carmichael, Lib Dem MP for Orkney and Shetlands, join in the Richmond celebrations.
This is what two Scottish judges said about Carmichael when he was in court over the Frenchgate affair:
"We had no concerns about the credibility and reliability of the witnesses, with one exception." A teller of "blatant" lies. "Unimpressive," his behaviour demonstrating "a lack of candour", "at best disingenuous, at worst evasive and self-serving" in his actions.
And yet, there he was, banging on about a Lib Dem come back, with Tim 'Ethical' Farron standing next to him...
And you wonder why I despise the Lib Dems...
I have always distrusted Lib Dem MP's but find their counsellors quite effective. My local Lib Dems are pretty good. Which is their downfall, they grow support at a true grass roots level then cock it all up when they get a sniff of Westminster.
I've never had Lib Dem counsellors (and thank God for that) and I did suffer a Lab-Lib coalition in the Scottish Parliament 10 years ago (which was about as useful as a trapdoor on a canoe) but over the years, a lot of people have said that grass-roots Lib Dems are salt of the Earth, but once they get a whiff of the Commons, something happens to them...
As much as I love Sheffield, I'm mad at them for not giving Clegg an almighty boot up the rear at the last GE
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Charlie Kennedy was a good MP, at least my parents said he was (I was too wee to notice such things). Its a shame that he retired to be honest, the whole Nick Clegg-ConDem shambles would have been avoided and the LibDems may well have had a genuine shot at power for the first time in their history.
Mr. Burning wrote: Kennedy was an alcoholic. He would never have lasted the way he was going.
It's reputably not all that uncommon amongst MPs. It also doesn't mean that he wouldn't had been a better leader than Clegg....
You never really know how people are going to react when given positions of responsibility; as an electorate we don't get given a psychological profile that might give us an idea!
Also whether people are good/bad leaders is a relative thing. I think May is a bad leader. In the end she only does what she wants; prefers restrictions on the rights of the population and so on; is not inspiring the populace (which is rapidly splitting down the middle) or her MPs. On the other hand she gets what she wants so from that concept could be considered a good manager. Clegg could be considered as a good Leader but a poor manager. He managed to inspire a lot of support but as a poor manager failed to put into practice many of his key aims. With a concept of open discussion that likely led to the Tories being able to manipulate them more than they would have expected (and probably comes form some naivety).
I have no qualms with them trying to have a joint government, but what they should have recognised is that in the last 2.5 years they were being horrendously manipulated and should have walked away from the coalition. Instead they tried to see it through and ended up being nothing more than a minor wing of an increasingly right Tory party (and that's hardly what a lot of LD supporters were hoping for).
On the other hand those people that abandoned LD last time probably didn't want an even further right wing Tory party and with Labour disappearing into the realms of ultra-left they might be in a position to rebound next election. What is interesting is that the polls that give the Tories a significant lead in peoples opinions doesn't seem to be representative of the by-election results.
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
In my time, I've worked with one or two functioning alcoholics. They are full on hard core when it comes to getting the job done, but sadly, end up burning themselves, and people around them, out.
Mr. Burning wrote: Kennedy was an alcoholic. He would never have lasted the way he was going.
It's reputably not all that uncommon amongst MPs. It also doesn't mean that he wouldn't had been a better leader than Clegg....
You never really know how people are going to react when given positions of responsibility; as an electorate we don't get given a psychological profile that might give us an idea!
Also whether people are good/bad leaders is a relative thing. I think May is a bad leader. In the end she only does what she wants; prefers restrictions on the rights of the population and so on; is not inspiring the populace (which is rapidly splitting down the middle) or her MPs. On the other hand she gets what she wants so from that concept could be considered a good manager. Clegg could be considered as a good Leader but a poor manager. He managed to inspire a lot of support but as a poor manager failed to put into practice many of his key aims. With a concept of open discussion that likely led to the Tories being able to manipulate them more than they would have expected (and probably comes form some naivety).
I have no qualms with them trying to have a joint government, but what they should have recognised is that in the last 2.5 years they were being horrendously manipulated and should have walked away from the coalition. Instead they tried to see it through and ended up being nothing more than a minor wing of an increasingly right Tory party (and that's hardly what a lot of LD supporters were hoping for).
On the other hand those people that abandoned LD last time probably didn't want an even further right wing Tory party and with Labour disappearing into the realms of ultra-left they might be in a position to rebound next election. What is interesting is that the polls that give the Tories a significant lead in peoples opinions doesn't seem to be representative of the by-election results.
Not having a go at you, but IMO, there seems to be a myth about the Lib Dems and their alliance with the Tories in 2010.
Clegg said it was in the national interest, stability, recession, blah blah blah.
But the truth is, the Lib Dems didn't have to go into government with Dave, and if it was really in the national interest (getting a budget or important bill through) they could have supported a minority Tory government on an issue by issue basis.
They got a whiff of power, and sold the nation down the river, and rightfully paid the price for being a bunch of treacherous
Automatically Appended Next Post: And could somebody explain to me why Eddie Hitler was being interviewed on the Andrew Marr show this morning?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/12/04 10:56:09
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