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When British bosses say that British workers are lazy compared to X Y Z, the astute observer knows what they really mean is that British workers are fed up of working long hours in crappy jobs for poor pay and are unwilling to run themselves into the ground to enrich their bosses.
Having worked in many a back breaking job for 40+ hours, you quickly learn two things:
1) It's really hard to run a house, pay your bills, and have anything left for saving money, on minimum wage
2) It takes over your whole life, leaving you too knackered at the weekend to care about doing anything like hobbies, nightlife etc etc
If Eastern Europeans want to work their finger to the bone picking bananas or whatever, then good luck to them.
But I won't blame my fellow Brit for not wanting to do these jobs, because it's a lot of work for very little pay, and I know a lot of people with years of hard graft behind them, and they have nothing to show for it but false hips, dodgy knees and poor health.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
You ought to take the time to see what is being said there. Writing off an entire people group as lazy is just racism.
If someone said we wont hire blacks because they are lazy, they would be outed as a bigot very quickly, however there is no protected status on the Uk citizenry as a whole, and the laziness is touted indirectly was a white mans attitude.
There is no excuse to claim Britons are lazy because one doesnt know all Britons, or see laziness in others. To not hire a Briton because they are Bitish and therefore likely to be lazy is the sort of race discrimination that should be penalised. However Britons dont have a protected status, unlike components ethnicities.
This is called selective bias and statements by a few high profile people on low wage jobs makes no one group of people more lazy than another.
The UK has a good education system (despite some failings) relative to a lot of other countries. Therefore hard working, non-lazy, people will be well educated and be able to obtain better jobs than the more menial ones. Therefore from a UK PLC perspective the 'non-lazy' UK citizens are in other higher paid jobs. What you are left with are the less well educated and (not necessarily the same) the 'lazy UK workers'. Therefore for low paid jobs you are much more likely to come across 'lazy' UK workers.
Now lets look at migrants (lets say Polish just for the sake of argument). To decide to move to another country means you have to actively decide this and take proactive measures to do this. Hence by default such people are not going to be 'lazy'. The 'lazy Polish' will not up sticks and move to another country. Therefore by default you are getting a hard working group of people migrating, not the ones lazing about. You have another selection bias
Finally you have selective memory. The human race naturally remembers bad experiences - one lazy UK person early on can bias your opinion against all others in future because that is how your brain works. You could have hired 300 non-lazy UK workers since then, but that lazy one always sticks in the memory.
So you have, UK harder workers are already in better paid jobs, a natural selection of migrants where lazy people don't bother to migrate and a selective memory bias. Hence in all likelihood the perception that UK people are lazy is just that because those stating it are failing to understand the wider picture.
@Orlanth specifically. Despite all your arguments, this all started because of your statement that "white, straight, male" people are being constructively dismissed. You have still provided no evidence that this is the case - all we have is you pointing to a paper saying a recruiting company is advertising abroad which they are entitled to do (and could quite possibly be advertising the same jobs in the UK at the same time if that is what they have been asked to do, but that question seems to be overlooked by the paper in question!)
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
@Orlanth specifically. Despite all your arguments, this all started because of your statement that "white, straight, male" people are being constructively dismissed. You have still provided no evidence that this is the case - all we have is you pointing to a paper saying a recruiting company is advertising abroad which they are entitled to do (and could quite possibly be advertising the same jobs in the UK at the same time if that is what they have been asked to do, but that question seems to be overlooked by the paper in question!)
It was enough to show protected class status in the UK. The fact that we do have very stringent laws on equal opportunities, yet allow transparent racism regarding opinions on Britons evidences such.
We have protective measures such as women only short lists mentioned before, and concerns when insufficient ethnic minorities are represented in an industry. However there are no concerns with over-representation.
The point remains that once it is understood that there is selective empowerment in the UK, one can see the pressure when it comes to downsizing. Which is easier, to downsize by dismissing a white worker with no protection, or an minority worker who can claim sexism/racism or another claim and thus get a lawyer the political majority white worker will not be able to get. This problem is normally seen only at worms eye level, and doesn't often make the press. It's a problem in bottom rung industries like retail where the worker has few protections at the best of times, a protected status minority can always claim discrimination and get support which raises an advantage.
As stated this is no anti-white agenda, just the path of least resistance.
As for the rest of what you wrote. You explained why there is the bigotry quite eloquently, and I agree with your assessment, but that doesnt mean it isnt bigotry. Again, if you replace thw word Briton with black in your above statement it would be seen very strongly as racist.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/19 11:58:33
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
Orlanth wrote: Being vindicated is nice, but I wish I had been wrong frankly.
RMT president Sean Hoyle claims that the primary goal of the current RMT strike is to undermine the elected government.
Sean Hoyle quotes
RMT president Sean Hoyle reportedly said the union's "rule number one" was to “strive to replace the capitalist system with a socialist order”.
In excerpts of speeches published by The Times, Mr Hoyle reportedly told a meeting of hard-left activists last month, “if we all spit together we can drown the bastards”.
Just to put in the most interesting quote from the BBC article you linked.
Mr Cash told Pienaar's Politics on BBC Radio 5 live: "We are a serious industrial trade union, and we are not part of some conspiracy to bring the government down - we are focusing on the concerns our members have over safety on the railways."
He continued: "The person who speaks for the RMT is the general secretary, and that's me.
"This dispute is all about safety and not about bringing the government down."
Mr Cash said in February, Peter Wilkinson, the Department for Transport's director of franchise, told a meeting he was "going to take on the trade unions and get the unions out of his industry".
"Within days, we had proposals from Southern rail to get rid of the second, safety-critical, guard on their trains. So that's what this dispute is all
about - it's all about safety."
It should be noted that Mr Hoyle, the President of RMT, is in a reasonably ceremonial position and literally only just elected this year, whereas the General Secretary has been in office for a few. It should also be noted that they (the RMT)are Bob Crow's direct successors and usually handle TFL, and only generally represent the conductors. Whereas another separate Union altogether, Aslef, represent the drivers on all this.
The impression one gets is that there's ideologues on both sides set trying to drum up a bruising showdown whilst the real concerns of those involved and more moderate views get less press because it's less exciting.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/12/19 12:42:15
is worth a glance, shows how complicated/crazy some of the trade things are going to have to be.
...least the lawyers will get rich eh ?
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
If there's anybody here following this story in Private Eye these past weeks, then you'll know that this Conservative government negotiated such a bad deal when handing the franchise to these spivs, that these 'reforms' to health and safety are cost cutting measures designed to grab some cash back, becuase the original deal was so poor, which is surprising, because we know that the Tories are so wonderfully skilled and competent at these things, the natural party of business
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
It was enough to show protected class status in the UK. The fact that we do have very stringent laws on equal opportunities, yet allow transparent racism regarding opinions on Britons evidences such.
We have protective measures such as women only short lists mentioned before, and concerns when insufficient ethnic minorities are represented in an industry. However there are no concerns with over-representation.
The point remains that once it is understood that there is selective empowerment in the UK, one can see the pressure when it comes to downsizing. Which is easier, to downsize by dismissing a white worker with no protection, or an minority worker who can claim sexism/racism or another claim and thus get a lawyer the political majority white worker will not be able to get. This problem is normally seen only at worms eye level, and doesn't often make the press. It's a problem in bottom rung industries like retail where the worker has few protections at the best of times, a protected status minority can always claim discrimination and get support which raises an advantage.
As stated this is no anti-white agenda, just the path of least resistance.
This is not evidence. Where are the cold, hard, reviewed facts on what you are claiming? A paper article (that in itself has very questionable bias on the issue) is not evidence. If the paper reported a UK person had committed a murder that does not make all UK citizens murderers. Never mind that you are making one awful large leap to say that because one company advertises abroad that means that there is intrinsic bias to constructive dismiss anyone that is "white, straight, male". Where is the evidence for this link, you are stating this as fact without any evidence that it is factual...You have one data point and are extrapolating it in a way that's simply not sensible. It's like me saying that because one day in Edinburgh it was raining that it means London will have continuous rain for the next 6 months.
As for the rest of what you wrote. You explained why there is the bigotry quite eloquently, and I agree with your assessment, but that doesnt mean it isnt bigotry. Again, if you replace thw word Briton with black in your above statement it would be seen very strongly as racist.
I didn't use the word Briton? However I don't really think you are seeing the point. This is that within an error the amount of 'laziness' in any population is about the same. It is your exposure to it that is different - that can give the perception that one group is more lazy than another when the reality is far from the truth, it is just you are exposed to a selection bias and therefore your evidence is anecdotal. The only way you can determine whether it is true is survey the whole population in all walks of life, real hard data and evidence. Not just what a paper with an agenda views are on it (for example wouldn't have been much of a story if the Express put out "UK company advertises across the EU (including the UK) for job applicants". You are reading into stories what you want to read.
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
Ketara wrote: But in today's modern employment culture, where companies like Asda demand you pledge your lifelong fealty to them just in the online pre-interview stage, when every employer demands to know 'Why do you want to work here?' and regards 'to pay my rent' as a negative answer? When we live in the days of the zero-hours contract where you're expected to be at the beck and call of your employers and be grateful for the 'opportunities' they offer? Professionalism and being hard-working is not regarded as sufficient, we are expected by the average large to multi-national firm to also mouth words of devotion and pretend to be happy to sacrifice our lives in pursuit of others profits and a Worker of the Month mug.
I've never been able to get through those stupid pre-application online quizzes to actually begin an application. They're awful.
Ketara wrote: But in today's modern employment culture, where companies like Asda demand you pledge your lifelong fealty to them just in the online pre-interview stage, when every employer demands to know 'Why do you want to work here?' and regards 'to pay my rent' as a negative answer? When we live in the days of the zero-hours contract where you're expected to be at the beck and call of your employers and be grateful for the 'opportunities' they offer? Professionalism and being hard-working is not regarded as sufficient, we are expected by the average large to multi-national firm to also mouth words of devotion and pretend to be happy to sacrifice our lives in pursuit of others profits and a Worker of the Month mug.
I've never been able to get through those stupid pre-application online quizzes to actually begin an application. They're awful.
The issue is that 90% of applications are answered in the simplistic way of "I want to pay my rent". As an employer if you have one post being advertised and 100 potential applicants then you need to a method of filtering the applications else for 2 months you are simply working through applications. I appreciate it's frustrating, having being on both sides of things, finding the person that looked good, only actually knows how to 'tell tales' rather than get the job done. However when you are competing with hundreds of other applicants then there is no choice. You need to learn how to respond to the questions to give yourself a chance and bring yourself above the crowd of people saying *exactly* the same thing. For example the answer "why you want to work here" should be answered by talking about what skill sets you can bring to the job that will benefit the company and how you think you will develop by being with the company (bringing added value). Answering with to pay the rent is basically telling them what they already know about you because fundamentally we *all* go to work to pay the rent! I am not saying that this differentiates between a good/bad candidate but as it stands, like Democracy, it's a bad system but it's the best we have. However once you learn the 'process' it gets a lot easier.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/12/19 18:49:44
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
This is not evidence. Where are the cold, hard, reviewed facts on what you are claiming?
That is evidence as far as the political field is concerned. For example we know of 'police racosm' because someone write an opinion that the 'police are inherently racist'.
This is not a statistical game, and statistics are hard to find because people naturally want to cover their tracks.
That is why you have to look at social phenomena on a human scale.
Where is the evidence for this link, you are stating this as fact without any evidence that it is factual...You have one data point and are extrapolating it in a way that's simply not sensible. It's like me saying that because one day in Edinburgh it was raining that it means London will have continuous rain for the next 6 months.
Not at all. There s no correlation in what you are saying. There is in what I am saying. It is a point of natural consequence, unlike predicting rainfall which is random beyond three days and iffy up until then management decisions can be guessed at, money follow the path of least resistance.
If you are a manager and you have to downsize who will you make redundant if all other factors are equal, someone who might endanger your company by making noise that you are only getting rid of them because they are a <blank> or someone who has no race/gender/sexuality card to play.
This doesnt even factor in the deliberate discrimination that can and does occur.
This is that within an error the amount of 'laziness' in any population is about the same. It is your exposure to it that is different - that can give the perception that one group is more lazy than another when the reality is far from the truth,
I completely agree with that statement, couldn't have put t better myself.
The only way you can determine whether it is true is survey the whole population in all walks of life, real hard data and evidence.
Real hard data is hard to come by because people mask the truth on these sorts of statistics. How many racist employers will fill in a questionnaire admitting their racism. Not many, yet we know there is racism in the workplace, through other means, and people tend not to argue with the lack of statistics. This goes both ways, hence my comments above.
Not just what a paper with an agenda views are on it (for example wouldn't have been much of a story if the Express put out "UK company advertises across the EU (including the UK) for job applicants". You are reading into stories what you want to read.
I am reading into stories what is actually there. Its the job of a political analyst to do that. There is definitely a case to answer for, because people are so blatant about the Britosn are lazy meme in a society where racism is not tolerated, officially. There is a lot to read into that about the true natural of Equal Opportunities culture in the UK, mostly that what it claims at face value, is not necessarily what you get. If it was the 'Britions are lazy' meme would be stomped on as fast as 'moslems are rapists'.
Now there are problems with Moslem rape gangs in Europe, but we don't allow people to make excuses and explain the psychology of why the very real and very bad incidents tarnish opinion of a whole people group. We just say "STOP! - You cant think like that."
Hence why on an intellectual level we can see why some business owners and therefore the politicians attached to them believe that Britons are lazy, from bad memories of individual Britosn who are lazy. However there is no protection for the Britons as a people group to pressurise said business owners to drop their discriminatory attitudes wheras there would be and is pressure to drop discriminatory attitudes towards other people groups.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
Whirlwind wrote: Answering with to pay the rent is basically telling them what they already know about you because fundamentally we *all* go to work to pay the rent!
No you don't. You want the job at Asda because for many years now, you have dreamed of stacking shelves professionally. Your fingers twitch whenever you see a soup can out of place, your last girlfriend broke up with you because you spent your anniversary standing around the local Asda hoping you looked like you worked there, and when you book your holidays you stand outside Asda HQ and marvel at its beauty. All your life, you've know that this was the one job for you. It is your purpose, your reason to be. The CEO of Asda is the most handsome person you have ever seen, and you hope that perhaps one day, you might get a motivational statement from him in your inbox to bask in the glow of.
I guess a "real" Briton would probably class as a minority, but they'd probably have centuries of inbreeding, what with the vikings, saxons, romans, normans, et al.
Or are we only classifying "real" Briton up until a point where it's convenient?
Orlanth wrote: That is evidence as far as the political field is concerned. For example we know of 'police racosm' because someone write an opinion that the 'police are inherently racist'.
This is not a statistical game, and statistics are hard to find because people naturally want to cover their tracks.
That is why you have to look at social phenomena on a human scale.
So basically if you can write an opinion that automatically makes you qualified as an expert in the field. On this basis we would still think Earth is the centre of the universe - this was based on opinion, it was evidence that proved otherwise. If I wrote a column saying that the police weren't racist does that make them not? Just because someone writes something doesn't make them suddenly qualified in the field. The point of data is that you source quantative data that is as unbiased as possible from a wide range of sources and then analyse this to test a hypothesis. If you already go into it with an opinion of what the answer should be then you are already biased and naturally pre-select evidence (it's a subconscious effect and why medical trials are always 'double blind').
Whirlwind wrote: Not at all. There s no correlation in what you are saying. There is in what I am saying. It is a point of natural consequence, unlike predicting rainfall which is random beyond three days and iffy up until then management decisions can be guessed at, money follow the path of least resistance. If you are a manager and you have to downsize who will you make redundant if all other factors are equal, someone who might endanger your company by making noise that you are only getting rid of them because they are a <blank> or someone who has no race/gender/sexuality card to play. This doesnt even factor in the deliberate discrimination that can and does occur.
I ask again where is the evidence for this. What natural consequence, have you reviewed all redundancies over the last year? Your just stating something as true because you feel it would be a 'natural consequence'. What is this natural consequence? If it's all about money and the company is downsizing (lets say getting rid of the design drawing section) do you really think they are going to get rid of some of the manufacturing engineers because they are 'white, male, straight' instead of the 'non-white, non-straight, non-male' design drawers simply because of individuals approach to life? How is that going to save the company if they sack all their manufacturing engineers instead?
Oh and rain is chaotic system, not random. Random means it happens with no cause and effect, chaotic means there are so many factors we can't accurately model it yet (although I think you example woefully sells short how well our weather is predicted).
Real hard data is hard to come by because people mask the truth on these sorts of statistics. How many racist employers will fill in a questionnaire admitting their racism. Not many, yet we know there is racism in the workplace, through other means, and people tend not to argue with the lack of statistics. This goes both ways, hence my comments above.
There are much better ways of collecting data, such as well asking the individual employees.
I am reading into stories what is actually there. Its the job of a political analyst to do that. There is definitely a case to answer for, because people are so blatant about the Britosn are lazy meme in a society where racism is not tolerated, officially. There is a lot to read into that about the true natural of Equal Opportunities culture in the UK, mostly that what it claims at face value, is not necessarily what you get. If it was the 'Britions are lazy' meme would be stomped on as fast as 'moslems are rapists'.
Now there are problems with Moslem rape gangs in Europe, but we don't allow people to make excuses and explain the psychology of why the very real and very bad incidents tarnish opinion of a whole people group. We just say "STOP! - You cant think like that."
Hence why on an intellectual level we can see why some business owners and therefore the politicians attached to them believe that Britons are lazy, from bad memories of individual Britosn who are lazy. However there is no protection for the Britons as a people group to pressurise said business owners to drop their discriminatory attitudes wheras there would be and is pressure to drop discriminatory attitudes towards other people groups.
Fine then challenge them, write to the papers and post on JO twitter and so on. They have a vested interest in what they are saying. Make people aware that what JO is suggesting that 100 hours a week equates to over 14 hours a day, 7 days a week (add on 8 hours sleep/eat + 2 hours travelling and that's your life). There is only one group of people that benefit from that arrangement and that's the rich. It's exploitation of the work force and they have a vested interest in this type of arrangement. Ask him how often he works a shift like that continuously with no relief. However it's still not evidence that people are being constructively dismissed based on their colour, race, sex!
Whirlwind wrote: Answering with to pay the rent is basically telling them what they already know about you because fundamentally we *all* go to work to pay the rent!
No you don't. You want the job at Asda because for many years now, you have dreamed of stacking shelves professionally. Your fingers twitch whenever you see a soup can out of place, your last girlfriend broke up with you because you spent your anniversary standing around the local Asda hoping you looked like you worked there, and when you book your holidays you stand outside Asda HQ and marvel at its beauty. All your life, you've know that this was the one job for you. It is your purpose, your reason to be. The CEO of Asda is the most handsome person you have ever seen, and you hope that perhaps one day, you might get a motivational statement from him in your inbox to bask in the glow of.
Yeah I know what you are saying, but there are a lot of people fighting for those jobs and you need to stand out form the crowd because some will say these things to get there. I'm not saying I agree with it, but when you have surplus of people applying for the job then it's the employers market. On the other hand the opposite can be true (say engineering) where the companies will fall over themselves to get a decent talented engineer because they are so few and far between relative to the number of jobs out there. However I was more highlighting how you should be looking at answering the question if you want a chance at the job.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/19 19:38:39
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
This is not evidence. Where are the cold, hard, reviewed facts on what you are claiming?
That is evidence as far as the political field is concerned. For example we know of 'police racosm' because someone write an opinion that the 'police are inherently racist'.
...
We know the police are racist because several high level judicial enquiries over several decades, plus several decades worth of arrest statistics, clearly show that the police are racist.
Orlanth wrote: That is evidence as far as the political field is concerned. For example we know of 'police racosm' because someone write an opinion that the 'police are inherently racist'.
This is not a statistical game, and statistics are hard to find because people naturally want to cover their tracks.
That is why you have to look at social phenomena on a human scale.
So basically if you can write an opinion that automatically makes you qualified as an expert in the field. On this basis we would still think Earth is the centre of the universe
No again you try to twist what is being said to fit an alology that bears to relation.
Exactly like how you falsely compared analysis of logical human interaction within a specific framework to something as random as long term rainfall patterns.
The point of data is that you source quantative data that is as unbiased as possible from a wide range of sources and then analyse this to test a hypothesis.
Thats would be nice, but this is the real world. You don't get unbiased quantative data on emotive and highly controversial subjects like race issues, for numerous reasons, What you do get are patterns to read in society.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
Whirlwind wrote: Answering with to pay the rent is basically telling them what they already know about you because fundamentally we *all* go to work to pay the rent!
No you don't. You want the job at Asda because for many years now, you have dreamed of stacking shelves professionally. Your fingers twitch whenever you see a soup can out of place, your last girlfriend broke up with you because you spent your anniversary standing around the local Asda hoping you looked like you worked there, and when you book your holidays you stand outside Asda HQ and marvel at its beauty. All your life, you've know that this was the one job for you. It is your purpose, your reason to be. The CEO of Asda is the most handsome person you have ever seen, and you hope that perhaps one day, you might get a motivational statement from him in your inbox to bask in the glow of.
I know that at at Aldi, if you apply for a shelf stacking job and are rejected you can only apply for positions within the company of a lower grade for 6/12 months...A lower position....The mind boggles.
So basically if you can write an opinion that automatically makes you qualified as an expert in the field. On this basis we would still think Earth is the centre of the universe
No again you try to twist what is being said to fit an alology that bears to relation.
Exactly like how you falsely compared analysis of logical human interaction within a specific framework to something as random as long term rainfall patterns.
Weather is not random. *IF* it was then you wouldn't be able to predict what it is going to do in the 2 seconds time never mind a few days time. It is a chaotic system for the second time - i.e. there are so many levers you pulling this way and that you can't precisely determine how they could all potentially interact. The point you were trying to say was that because someone states something then it is assumed to be true, but the reason it is true is because it is based on evidence as Kilkrazy pointed out and has been tested several times. Challenging this on your thoughts is not evidence it's just postulation without real merit. So again where is your actual physical evidence for these things.
Thats would be nice, but this is the real world. You don't get unbiased quantative data on emotive and highly controversial subjects like race issues, for numerous reasons, What you do get are patterns to read in society.
That's simply not true. You can record the ethnicity proportion of a work force. You can record the sex of those being made redundant and so on; hard physical facts. You can then compare this to the population as a whole. If you have a manager that always hires 50 year old white males then you know that you have an issue (either subconsciously or deliberately). No emotions required.
I know that at at Aldi, if you apply for a shelf stacking job and are rejected you can only apply for positions within the company of a lower grade for 6/12 months...A lower position....The mind boggles.
I see why they do it, to limit future applications (I guess they get a lot). However I disagree with the principles because you don't know the quality of the staff that are being hired. You could just be unlucky and not make the cut because the week you are in by unfortunate circumstance just happens to have a lot of good candidates, whereas the next week you could be the only good candidate out of all the applications. You can also have a bad day at the office, have a cold, someone stood on your foot and broke a toe and it's almighty painful and so on. I could also see that it might be construed as illegal in certain circumstances, for example if you had morning sickness when you took the interview you are being penalised because you were pregnant. You could even argue ageism if you were sick because you are more likely to get sick as you get older.
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"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
Weather is not random. *IF* it was then you wouldn't be able to predict what it is going to do in the 2 seconds time never mind a few days time. It is a chaotic system for the second time
You are splitting hairs weather systems are to all intens and purposes random beyond short range forcasting.
However business methodology can retain patterns over time, an are not compounded away by chaos. So a manager can be realisticall predicted to find the shortcut to a good bonus tomorrow or a year from now.
That's simply not true. You can record the ethnicity proportion of a work force. You can record the sex of those being made redundant and so on; hard physical facts. You can then compare this to the population as a whole. If you have a manager that always hires 50 year old white males then you know that you have an issue (either subconsciously or deliberately). No emotions required.
However this is used to determine under-representation of minorities. It is not used to determine over-representation of minorities. Motive is everything. Also it makes no comment itself as to how the people came by their jobs, Were they shoehorned in? How could you tell outside of a minority only shortlist, which only accounts for some cases. A lot of discrimination occurs by the back door.
Now these statistics would be useful, which is why they are often not available.
Sadly some evidence only comes from hearsay and is difficult to use. A good example being the Post Office. I know some workers in my local Post Office and they say that there is a very distinct ethnic bias. One can see this easily, The proportion of asian staff is way above the representation on society. Can you get a breakdown of the ethnicity of staffing? No. and if you did statistics are easy to manipulate anyway, by how you record temporary staff or omit promotion imbalances. The same staff believe the system is discriminatory with regards to promotion, and one can tell over time that the management is also disproportionate as are other factors like shift patterns. Can you get stats for that. Not from the Post Office you cant, and even if you could the press would likely not report it because it would be seen as anti-asian and therefore racist.
All in all you have to look at a worms eye view of society. Accumulative anecdotal evidence that reveals a pattern over time. From time to time the special ills that are detected are dealt with.
New Labour on a point of doctrine did nothing about the Islamification of schools, and I knew this was happening because of eye witness reports of blatant heavy handed discrimination that reached me. However airing this evidence would get nowhere and would likely only lead to an accusation of racism. After 2010 Cameron did something about this phenomena, and it had an attached label the Trojan Horse plot, suddenly it was no longer impossible to talk about Islamification and gross discrimination in schools.
My problem is that I have to underspeak. Just as I was right in 2008 about gross discrimination in schools by Islamic biased staff, I am right now about constructive dismissal of people without protected status. I have seen it happen, often.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
Mozzyfuzzy wrote: I guess a "real" Briton would probably class as a minority, but they'd probably have centuries of inbreeding, what with the vikings, saxons, romans, normans, et al.
Or are we only classifying "real" Briton up until a point where it's convenient?
Scots are a mix of Irish/Pictish and a bit of Briton but not all that much
Although how much that you can read into the genealogy of any nation millennia later, especially when the definition of 'Brition' is vague to begin with, is open to interpretation....
Whirlwind wrote: Answering with to pay the rent is basically telling them what they already know about you because fundamentally we *all* go to work to pay the rent!
No you don't. You want the job at Asda because for many years now, you have dreamed of stacking shelves professionally. Your fingers twitch whenever you see a soup can out of place, your last girlfriend broke up with you because you spent your anniversary standing around the local Asda hoping you looked like you worked there, and when you book your holidays you stand outside Asda HQ and marvel at its beauty. All your life, you've know that this was the one job for you. It is your purpose, your reason to be. The CEO of Asda is the most handsome person you have ever seen, and you hope that perhaps one day, you might get a motivational statement from him in your inbox to bask in the glow of.
I know that at at Aldi, if you apply for a shelf stacking job and are rejected you can only apply for positions within the company of a lower grade for 6/12 months...A lower position....The mind boggles.
Their stupid pre application online screening test just compounds that. It has like 50 questions, all asking what you would do in various situations with multiple choices and you have to answer them all in the correct way. And many of them are trick questions, with no real right or wrong answer.
The test takes as long as an hours and if you don't answer everything to their satisfaction? Then you don't even get to submit an application and you can't apply again for a year. Last time, I wasted an hour answering quizzes and had nothing to show for it. I can't apply again till sometime in 2017.
My parents regularly tell me to apply to Aldi or wherever, and I have to tell them "I can't, they won't let me".
Kilkrazy wrote: If there is a widespread belief that British people are lazy, it's a bit surprising given the large number of British people involved in many high-pace industries here and around the rest of the world.
Just to take a wander down a highly speculative (and theoretical) hypothesis on that front, I think to an extent it might be more to do with how other nations perceive the workplace and themselves within it.
As someone who specialises in pre-ww1 munitions development, I examine quite a lot of sources relating to a number of related industries around the world in that period of time; namely armaments, chemicals, engines, aircraft, specialist instruments (optics, early computing devices, navigational tools, etc) and so on. That naturally entails a lot of business and industrial history, which means I get the pleasure of wandering through texts to do with salesmanship, biographies of famous businesspeople from around the globe, etcetc.
And in all of that, it's often very interesting to see how other people perceive the British, and each other in turn within the workplace context. So for example, the British saw the Germans and the French as far more sleazy (likely to indulge in bribes), and usually viewed their business transactions as something of a craft to be mastered, but left at the workplace. The British hobbyist is a strong tradition, and whilst hardworking whilst at work, the average British employee was always far more interested in what he was going to be doing as soon as his hours were up.
Conversely, the Americans and the Germans were far more likely to live and breathe their businesses, something you tended to only see in the most hard-headed of British entrepreneurs. The hours involved were far less of a concern, the Germans because they tended to view a job/company as a life and rarely look outside it, the Americans because the thrill of the bootstrapping mentality; always looking to better themselves and 'win' at life and their profession.
Both in turn usually regarded the Brit as being lazy/undedicated, and the French as worse still. The British meanwhile saw the Americans as pushy/shallow and the Germans as unimaginative. The French regarded all with a certain disdain, purely on the basis that they were not French and therefore unsophisticated. Meanwhile, to go outside the West, the Americans were constantly baffled at how the Chinese would always appear to be at work, but never seem to do anything unless it was necessary to preserve face (a very Chinese cultural concern), and the Chinese in turn viewed all the Americans as distastefully blunt and deceptive in their desire to always 'win' in transactions.
Assuming even the slightest aspect of these attitudes towards each other persists (and I would speculate on my own empirical evidence of contemporary times that they do), it's not so much that the British are less hard-working than those other cultures, but that we quite simply don't tend to care about our work in the same way. We're professional, but for most of us, a job is just something we do to pay the bills. We don't inhale company culture, we see any imposition on our private lives by our jobs as an inconvenience, we hate contrived buzzwords, and perhaps the greatest of all sins, we quite simply don't take any of it seriously.
But in today's modern employment culture, where companies like Asda demand you pledge your lifelong fealty to them just in the online pre-interview stage, when every employer demands to know 'Why do you want to work here?' and regards 'to pay my rent' as a negative answer? When we live in the days of the zero-hours contract where you're expected to be at the beck and call of your employers and be grateful for the 'opportunities' they offer? Professionalism and being hard-working is not regarded as sufficient, we are expected by the average large to multi-national firm to also mouth words of devotion and pretend to be happy to sacrifice our lives in pursuit of others profits and a Worker of the Month mug.
And we just can't do it very convincingly. Because for us, it just isn't true.*
*Disclaimer:- Everything I just said may be complete bollocks, I'm just musing.
I just had to exalt this
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mozzyfuzzy wrote: I guess a "real" Briton would probably class as a minority, but they'd probably have centuries of inbreeding, what with the vikings, saxons, romans, normans, et al.
Or are we only classifying "real" Briton up until a point where it's convenient?
Need more research Vikings and normans are the same genetic line. Norman being a shortened version of Norseman. Just because they settled in france, doesn't make them a different bloodline.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As for the British being lazy, That was propaganda put about to push an agenda. Example Ford escort production at Speke Liverpool;
The British workers were producing 25% more escorts per man/shift, than their German counterparts. Escort production exceeded sales. Faced with with cutting production, ford decided to close the Speke plant Reason it would cost too much to close the German plants due to the benefits the German workers were entitled to. Note He who works hard and does his best, just gets gak on like the rest.
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Its hard to be awesome, when your playing with little plastic men. Welcome to Fantasy 40k
If you think your important, in the great scheme of things. Do the water test.
Put your hands in a bucket of warm water,
then pull them out fast. The size of the hole shows how important you are.
I think we should roll some dice, to see if we should roll some dice, To decide if all this dice rolling is good for the game.
Their stupid pre application online screening test just compounds that. It has like 50 questions, all asking what you would do in various situations with multiple choices and you have to answer them all in the correct way. And many of them are trick questions, with no real right or wrong answer.
The test takes as long as an hours and if you don't answer everything to their satisfaction? Then you don't even get to submit an application and you can't apply again for a year. Last time, I wasted an hour answering quizzes and had nothing to show for it. I can't apply again till sometime in 2017.
My parents regularly tell me to apply to Aldi or wherever, and I have to tell them "I can't, they won't let me".
Fething ridiculous.
I feel you on all of that. Psychometric tests are crap. Sometimes it's worth going in and asking someone in store how they answered the questions. Failing that, learn to code lol.
On the other topic:
IIRC, you're more likely to find 'Britons' over in Brittany than anywhere in Britain. It's thought many jumped ship from Britain during the decline of the Roman Empire and the coming of the Angles/Saxons/Jutes.
I don't get why people try and use their 'bloodline' as a personal identifier though?
There's the rub though. There are certain types of work that many Brits do not want to do because they have been given the expectation that they are perhaps entitled to better positions straight from the off.
I don't think that Brits are lazy at all, assuming they are motivated, in a skilled/semi-skilled or "traditional" job relevant to their current disposition. The latter I would include low skill non-trades like drivers, sales, serving etc.
There seems however to be a genuine element in British society that miss the fact that one job can be a means to an end. Todays Labourer will be next years Apprentice and the following years tradesman; or that that labouring job just pays for you to train in something else.
You would not believe some of the "applicants" we see placed in our Apprenticeship schemes (that I am mandated to provide for Planning reasons btw, I have not problem filling places for motivated people). True they probably got sent by a Job Centre and didn't really apply but feth me if you get your foot in the door somewhere you'd want to appear interested. This is where the lazy Brit idea comes from for me.
I have 50 Apprentice places to fill over 3 years (or I get fined! ) and I already know that most will not last the week from bitter experience. I also get the pleasure of paying some council jobshop consultant £200k for of finding and placing them as well.
Lazy Brits do exist, we're not intrinsically so as I would hope others/my own 12-13 hour days would prove but we do as a nation enable a system where laziness is an option for those so inclined.
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How do you promote your Hobby? - Legoburner "I run some crappy wargaming website "
Its probably easier to base who counts as 'Britons' on language. There are 2 branches of 'celtic' languages spoken in the UK;
Brittonic - Welsh and Cornish (and Breton) i.e. Britons
Goidelic - Irish, Manx and Gaelic i.e Gaels
Genetic mapping is useful but it will always be imprecise given the nature of population dynamics, language is much easier
I won't pretend for one second that some publications have acted horribly in the past. However, this is not the solution to it. Making the papers pay out even if they win will only kill off investigative journalism and let "them" bully them into silence so that they can get anyway with their misdeeds.
That's what I think anyway.
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