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Sorry having a bit of a rant but I'm so frustrated looking at the news right now when you read what certain EU leaders are saying Brexit will be bad for the UK and the EU. It doesn't have to be! Only has to be because the EU wants it to be.

To me (a remainer) the EU is starting to come across quite badly. Allowing the UK to keep its current trading arrangements with the EU protects jobs, services, and the economy of both the citizens of the EU and UK.

They will not offer this for the simple reason that they don't want other EU countries to have that option. If they did then they may leave too. This is what I have a problem with regarding the EU. The EU comes across as using free trade to hold countries hostage rather than keep its members based on merit.

Constantly saying the 4 freedoms are not negotiable is ridiculous. Why not? If the alternative is that the EU breaks up because of it then it was wrong. It's why we left.

I think the the UK will have to create a new free trade area with a standing option for any EU country that leaves the union a fast track to the new trade area. Call it the post millennium economic area. Then hope that persuades more countries to leave.

There is no reason not maintain the current trade deals other than spite.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
If they intended to live out the rest of their lives in Spain, perhaps they should have applied for Spanish citizenship? I know I would have.

I'm conflicted on this. If you have paid into the pot then you should get at least some of the benefits. However relying on something such as S1 status (is that it?) is pretty foolish as it could be taken away at at any stage.

I can't shed a tear over falling value of pensions due to post ref exchange rates either.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
If they intended to live out the rest of their lives in Spain, perhaps they should have applied for Spanish citizenship? I know I would have.

My experience of Brits in Spain is that if England had had better weather, they would never have left.

I have no pity for such people (the ones who treat their retirement and long term/permanent residency in Spain as an extended vacation that is).

Theres something quite selfish and ignorant IMO in choosing to live and/or retire in a country, but not bothering to learn the language or apply for citizenship, and choosing to live in your own isolated little British enclave away from home. You're not really investing yourself into your host country. That goes for British ex-pats, and it goes for European and other immigrants who come to Britain.

Basically eating your cake and still having it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr. Burning wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
If they intended to live out the rest of their lives in Spain, perhaps they should have applied for Spanish citizenship? I know I would have.

I'm conflicted on this. If you have paid into the pot then you should get at least some of the benefits. However relying on something such as S1 status (is that it?) is pretty foolish as it could be taken away at at any stage.

I agree. If they've paid their taxes, then they ought to have some sort of protection.

Didn't Theresa May say something about guaranteeing the rights and status of EU citizens here on a quid pro quo basis? If Spain starts expelling British ex-pats, then we reciprocate. If they start denying healthcare to British ex-pats, then we reciprocate. And vice versa.

I can't shed a tear over falling value of pensions due to post ref exchange rates either.

My parents used to have a holiday villa in Spain, but sold it just before Christmas. The drop in exchange rates actually benefited them I think. (at least I assume so, they sold it in Euro's and converted back to Sterling). They've now replaced their motor home and intend to spend a lot more time in France once again (my childhood holidays were split 75/25 % between France and Orlando Florida). My dad has always been an extremely fluent French speaker, but an intermediate Spanish speaker. I was always puzzled why they chose Spain and not France.

The threat isn't Spain about kicking them out, but about no longer offering free healthcare for UK citizens, like they don't for any other non-EU citizens. That may mean that the costs of living in Spain for the unhealthy (or elderly) may become too high.

That said, they must be paying *something* into the Spanish economy, even if it's just in groceries.

Even if everyone else in Europe decides we have to pay for medical care, we should not institute any form of charge for their citizens in exchange. That sort of quid pro quo is abhorrent. Turn away sick people because they're carrying the wrong passport? I'd be ashamed of my country for something like that. I mean, what next, start locking up Saudi Arabians who report rape because that's what happens in their countries? We're better than that.

We cannot control how other countries treat our citizens, but we can control affairs within this country, and if you're the kind of person who would tell a child with tuberculosis to get the hell off the hospital reception desk because they're Spanish, you have no respect from me. And I'd happily campaign in the streets on that basis.

The NHS heals those who need it and are in Britain, regardless of age, sex, religion, politics, or nationality. Anything less and the whole system becomes pointless.

 obsidianaura wrote:
Sorry having a bit of a rant but I'm so frustrated looking at the news right now when you read what certain EU leaders are saying Brexit will be bad for the UK and the EU. It doesn't have to be! Only has to be because the EU wants it to be.

To me (a remainer) the EU is starting to come across quite badly. Allowing the UK to keep its current trading arrangements with the EU protects jobs, services, and the economy of both the citizens of the EU and UK.

They will not offer this for the simple reason that they don't want other EU countries to have that option. If they did then they may leave too. This is what I have a problem with regarding the EU. The EU comes across as using free trade to hold countries hostage rather than keep its members based on merit.

Constantly saying the 4 freedoms are not negotiable is ridiculous. Why not? If the alternative is that the EU breaks up because of it then it was wrong. It's why we left.

I think the the UK will have to create a new free trade area with a standing option for any EU country that leaves the union a fast track to the new trade area. Call it the post millennium economic area. Then hope that persuades more countries to leave.

There is no reason not maintain the current trade deals other than spite.

The freedoms and principles of the EU would be easier to believe in if they were accepted on their own merits, but it rather feels like countries are strong-armed into accepting them. The more the EU threaten us the more it looks like a protection racket. Follow our rules and you'll do well, try to leave and we'll mess you up to set an example for the rest.

As with many things in all systems of government, I suspect that some principles that are strongly demanded primarily reflect the wishes of a minority with the most money, rather than the wishes of the true majority. Freedom of movement suits government's and corporations wanting cheap workers, few populations would ask for high migration.

Herzlos wrote:
The threat isn't Spain about kicking them out, but about no longer offering free healthcare for UK citizens, like they don't for any other non-EU citizens. That may mean that the costs of living in Spain for the unhealthy (or elderly) may become too high.

That said, they must be paying *something* into the Spanish economy, even if it's just in groceries.

The biggest problem as I can see it for Ex-Pats abroad is the very real problem of them not being able to live in Spain (no access to free infrastructure) then the problem that they cannot afford to live back in the UK. I've met a number of people that moved to the continent stayed for 5-10 year but wanted to come home - they cant afford a home here any more and whilst effectively being well off all their live become potless pensioners.

It's an issue that exists now so will only get worse if not suitably dealt with (the obvious answer is citizenship but many Brit would be resistant).

Herzlos wrote:
The threat isn't Spain about kicking them out, but about no longer offering free healthcare for UK citizens, like they don't for any other non-EU citizens. That may mean that the costs of living in Spain for the unhealthy (or elderly) may become too high.

That said, they must be paying *something* into the Spanish economy, even if it's just in groceries.

Rights which is why I brought up Theresa Mays promise to guarantee and link the rights of EU citizens here to the rights of British expats.

The easiest solution would just be to offer blanket British/Spanish citizenship to everyone currently living and/or working in Britain/Spain. A moratorium or amnesty of sorts.


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 Ketara wrote:
Even if everyone else in Europe decides we have to pay for medical care, we should not institute any form of charge for their citizens in exchange. That sort of quid pro quo is abhorrent. Turn away sick people because they're carrying the wrong passport? I'd be ashamed of my country for something like that. I mean, what next, start locking up Saudi Arabians who report rape because that's what happens in their countries? We're better than that.

We cannot control how other countries treat our citizens, but we can control affairs within this country, and if you're the kind of person who would tell a child with tuberculosis to get the hell off the hospital reception desk because they're Spanish, you have no respect from me. And I'd happily campaign in the streets on that basis.

The NHS heals those who need it and are in Britain, regardless of age, sex, religion, politics, or nationality. Anything less and the whole system becomes pointless.

Don't think anyone is advocating turning people away. They would just be charged for the treatment after the fact, like we do and all other European member states do for non EU citizens right? Doesn't medical insurance cover that? Or would the citizen's home government cover it? What are you saying exactly, that the NHS should be obliged to provide free medical care to the rest of the world? Thats noble, but unsustainable.

I don't believe that people should be denied treatment and turned away when they fall ill in Britain but its not unreasonable to ask them/their government to pay for it afterwards (unless of course the person is living and working in Britain, in which case they are or have paid taxes and contributed to the NHS and should be entitled to access it like any British citizen).

 Ketara wrote:
Even if everyone else in Europe decides we have to pay for medical care, we should not institute any form of charge for their citizens in exchange.

I can't see that playing well with the brexiteers, after all what about all those millions lost to 'health tourism' that the leavers were so keen to point out/exaggerate/fabricate?

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

Don't think anyone is advocating that. They would just be charged for the treatment, like we do and all other european member states do for non EU citizens right?

errrr...

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
If Spain starts expelling British ex-pats, then we reciprocate. If they start denying healthcare to British ex-pats, then we reciprocate. And vice versa.

You kind of literally just did.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

Don't think anyone is advocating that. They would just be charged for the treatment, like we do and all other european member states do for non EU citizens right?

Okay, so you treat them. Now you find that they cannot afford to pay. What do you do now?

 Ketara wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

Don't think anyone is advocating that. They would just be charged for the treatment, like we do and all other european member states do for non EU citizens right?

errrr...

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
If Spain starts expelling British ex-pats, then we reciprocate. If they start denying healthcare to British ex-pats, then we reciprocate. And vice versa.

You kind of literally just did.

That was a response to sometime talking about Spain denying FREE healthcare. Sorry for not clarifying that. I would never support the outright denial of healthcare, especially life saving emergency treatment. That truly is abhorrent. But somebody ultimately has to pay for healthcare. People shouldn't be turned away from a hospital, but if they're not living and working in a country and therefore paying taxes then some arrangement has to be made to pay for that treatment.

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

 Ketara wrote:
Even if everyone else in Europe decides we have to pay for medical care, we should not institute any form of charge for their citizens in exchange.

I can't see that playing well with the brexiteers, after all what about all those millions lost to 'health tourism' that the leavers were so keen to point out/exaggerate/fabricate?

Blimey guv'nor, I swear every second post from you in here is a passive-aggressive jab at someone/thing. Lighten up a little!

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

Don't think anyone is advocating that. They would just be charged for the treatment, like we do and all other european member states do for non EU citizens right?

Okay, so you treat them. Now you find that they cannot afford to pay. What do you do now?

Charge their medical/travel insurer, or charge their Government's health service.

I'm sorry, but providing free healthcare to the entire world is not sustainable. Is that really what you two are arguing for?

 Ketara wrote:

Blimey guv'nor, I swear every second post from you in here is a passive-aggressive jab at someone/thing. Lighten up a little!

Passive aggressive? Do you really think that EU citizens will still be entitled to free healthcare?

Besides there isn't much to be cheery about at the moment, when the political landscape isn't so bleak and threatening I may be more optimistic. Thank Christ for the growing possibility of a successful Indyref 2 or there would be nothing good on the horizon for the foreseeable future.

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

 Ketara wrote:

Blimey guv'nor, I swear every second post from you in here is a passive-aggressive jab at someone/thing. Lighten up a little!

Passive aggressive? Do you really think that EU citizens will still be entitled to free healthcare?

Do you think British ex-pats will still be entitled?


I don't understand why the outrage here seems to be so selective...I say "We should continue to provide free healthcare for EU citizens on the condition that the EU reciprocates for British ex-pats" and thats called abhorrent, but when we discuss the possibility of EU nations doing the exact same thing, you all just shrug your shoulders?..

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

Do you think British ex-pats will still be entitled?

Potentially, it all depends on the deal. I don't think that the EHIC will survive contact though, not with the way that the Tories are apparently pushing for the hardest of Brexits.

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

Do you think British ex-pats will still be entitled?

Potentially, it all depends on the deal. I don't think that the EHIC will survive contact though.

Maybe it should. How does it work exactly? Can non-EU member states sign up to it, if they pay annual fees to support the system, or is it entirely conditional on EU membership? If the British government has to pay for us to remain a member so British citizens continue to receive free health care, I'm fine with that.

Its not limited to EU members as Norwegian and Swiss citizens can use it (IIRC at least).

I have used it in the past and I was told that all medical bills are met by the patient's own national health service provided that they hold a valid EHIC card (although my son's was out of date It was accepted anyway ).

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

 Ketara wrote:

Blimey guv'nor, I swear every second post from you in here is a passive-aggressive jab at someone/thing. Lighten up a little!

Passive aggressive? Do you really think that EU citizens will still be entitled to free healthcare?

Besides there isn't much to be cheery about at the moment, when the political landscape isn't so bleak and threatening I may be more optimistic. Thank Christ for the growing possibility of a successful Indyref 2 or there would be nothing good on the horizon for the foreseeable future.

I think it might. We'll see when it's all done and dusted and they've stopped posturing.

And I'll be honest, having lived in Zimbabwe for five years, where the police can make you disappear in the night, and you walk past kids starving in the street all the time, where people die all the time of basic curable diseases....I don't know, it helps keep everything in perspective for me when I hear people screaming themselves hoarse about the evil Tories and how the country has been ruined.

I accept that perspective doesn't work for everyone, but it means that for me personally, so long as I can keep a roof over my head, food in my stomach, little toy soldiers on the table, and do more or less what I like without fear of oppression? Life can't be that bad, and neither can the country. If I fall ill, I'll be treated, my kids will be educated for free, I can strike if I feel it necessary, etcetc. We live in a little paradise here, and amidst all the constant doom and gloom in the press, it can help to remember that.

I'm not sermonising at you, so apologies if it comes across that way at all. Just trying to point that the political landscape isn't really that bleak and threatening if you take a step back and a wider view once in a while. Facism isn't on the table yet!

 Ketara wrote:
. If I fall ill, I'll be treated, my kids will be educated for free, I can strike if I feel it necessary, etcetc. We live in a little paradise here, and amidst all the constant doom and gloom in the press, it can help to remember that.

For now. The way things are going these things will become degraded even more than they already have been after nearly a decade of idealogical austerity. Workers rights are hardly a high priority, the Tories have already allowed people with absolutely no qualifications to teach children and I would not be surprised if they don't start privatising the NHS the very first chance they get.

No we don't live in South Sudan, Syria or any other abjectly failed state but that in no way means that you can't have real concern for the future and do everything possible to prevent the country that you live in from falling face first in gak.

Personally I will not be made unemployed by Brexit, and even if I was I am a skilled and highly qualified professional with the loosest of ties to the UK, and I am not going to find myself homeless, diseased or dead. However I find the UK's direction of travel abhorrent and I would like my son to grow up in a world better than the one that we currently inhabit, faint hope of that.

 Silent Puffin? wrote:
Its not limited to EU members as Norwegian and Swiss citizens can use it (IIRC at least).

I have used it in the past and I was told that all medical bills are met by the patient's own national health service provided that they hold a valid EHIC card (although my son's was out of date It was accepted anyway ).

Whats the problem then? Lets just keep going with that scheme if not expand upon it.

Sounds like we're making a mountain out of a mole hill.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

Whats the problem then? Lets just keep going with that scheme if not expand upon it.

The problem is all the whining about 'health tourism' and as the Brexiteers seem to get whatever they want these days...

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

Whats the problem then? Lets just keep going with that scheme if not expand upon it.

The problem is all the whining about 'health tourism' and as the Brexiteers seem to get whatever they want these days...

What whining? Nobody here but you is talking about that.

I thought we were talking about the possibility of British ex-pats losing free Healthcare, and whether or not the British Government should reciprocate?

 Silent Puffin? wrote:


For now. The way things are going these things will become degraded even more than they already have been after nearly a decade of idealogical austerity. Workers rights are hardly a high priority, the Tories have already allowed people with absolutely no qualifications to teach children and I would not be surprised if they don't start privatising the NHS the very first chance they get.

The day the government looks like it's going to actually privatise the NHS, the day the legislation for a police state is on the table, the day the education is really up gak creek, I'll be out there on the streets with everyone else. Until then? I'll use my vote to indicate my (dis)pleasure at the general election, but I won't let it get me down particularly.

Thing is, every government is usually bad for the country in some regards, and good in others. You don't get to see what was which until a decade later though. But the seesaw means that if a government screws the economy, another one will usually repair it, if a government neglects housing policy, another overdoes it. When you look at the grand picture over thirty year increments, we tend to take five steps foward for every four back, and come out ahead in the grand scheme of things.

I'm not trying to tell you that you're wrong for getting depressed about things in politics, the more invested one is in this sort of thing, the more it affects you personally. Just saying that things tend to generally work out somehow. And I don't think all this Brexit affair will be any different.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

What whining? Nobody here but you is talking about that.

There was certainly enough coverage about it before the referendum.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/04/health-tourists-cost-uk-taxpayers-nearly-6billion-in-eight-years/
http://news.sky.com/story/nhs-failing-to-hit-target-for-charging-health-tourists-10634829
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/27/hit-squads-to-tackle-hospitals-not-charging-payment-from-foreign/[url]

Right but thats not what we were talking about here. You're going off on a tangent and we're arguing past each other.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Right but thats not what we were talking about here. We're arguing past each other.

It is though. If the EU blocks the EHIC card for UK citizens the UK will certainly reciprocate and It very likely that the government wants to kill it anyway.

 Future War Cultist wrote:

Not quite what I asked: I'm interested, would you personally, in the event of a 52/48 vote to stay, be standing up now in the same way, decrying the lack of democracy, and demanding a second referendum? To represent the view of the 48%? Stating that a more detailed referendum was necessary? Or would you be content to let it pass?

Yes Whirlwind, if the result had been 52/48 in favor of Remaining, would you have called for a rerun of the referendum asap? Would you still say then that a simple remain vote doesn't take into account the different levels of enthusiasm for remaining (remain and more integration, remain but no more integration and remain but with rolling back of integration)? Would you still be saying that some voters might regret their decision to vote to remain and need another vote down the line? Would you be as enthusiastic to defend the 48% then?

Would you?

 Ketara wrote:
Just saying that things tend to generally work out somehow.

They don't though, the sky doesn't fall in of course but toxic government policy will have a long term effect. Its not as if I am going to be an EU citizen again for a while...