Silent Puffin? wrote:


From Westminster's reaction to this it is quite clear just how 'strong' a position we actual have when we start negotiating this wondrous 'free trade' deal with a protectionist president......

 Compel wrote:
There is a second petition to ban him from entering the country entirely.

I dunno myself, as far as the UK is concerned when it comes to the USA and our situation, it kinda feels like we're in a position of 'picking our battles.'

We've got a measure of goodwill from Trump and it's really a sad thing to say that releasing a direct challenge to him ala Trudeau in Canada did, would ultimately only hurt the UK and what influence the UK has with America to no gain.

And the sane-ish countries in the world? I think they'll accept the UK's statement on the US's travel restrictions.

Politics is always about political capital, even with Trump. The difference is, Trump has a different interpretation of what that political capital is. Some countries, the pomp and circumstance of granting a State Visit is practically meaningless. They may also see a statement about opinions of the social policies of their country as meaningless too. To Trump? The man that's all about show and style, with his ego? They mean the world.

 r_squared wrote:
The problem is that May overstepped herself. She invited Trump on behalf of the Queen after 7 days. Obama was elected in Nov 2008, he didn't get a state visit until May 2011.
We're not leaving the EU for a good while yet, so what's the rush?

 Ketara wrote:

 r_squared wrote:
The problem is that May overstepped herself. She invited Trump on behalf of the Queen after 7 days. Obama was elected in Nov 2008, he didn't get a state visit until May 2011.
We're not leaving the EU for a good while yet, so what's the rush?

Charm the socks off the fecker. Look at this from the perspective of realpolitik and examine the timetables involved for your answer.

Right now, Europe will give us no favours at the negotiating table. The more we appear to be capable of doing well without them, the more we appear in a position of strength, the better a position we will be in at that negotiating table bargaining our own access to the European market. The way we do that is by appearing to have multiple deals effectively done and ready to go the minute the ink on our secession has dried. Hence May and everyone else jetting everywhere they can to get as many informal agreements/negotiations going as they can before the EU negotiations begin in earnest.

Yet none of those will be signed until whatever deal we have the EU is done and dusted in that two year gap. In other words, we can feign agreement to practically anything with anyone if we think it makes us look stronger. The appearance is what counts, for the sake of the EU negotiations. Once that deal is signed to our best advantage, any informal agreement with anyone else can be subsequently 're-examined', put out to consultation again, and generally re-negotiated over the following few years (or indeed, however long it takes) before anything is formally signed.

Trump is a shyster. He's an old school racist and sexist. He's used to getting his own way. But these things do not mean he is immune to flattery. On the contrary, he's shown a marked inclination in private towards celebrating his Scottish/British roots. He actively wants, I would argue, to be recognised here, possibly even moreso than he does in America (where he expects people to hate him due to the political divide). There's a reason he saw May when he hadn't been in office a week I would hypothesize, and it wasn't purely business.

So he'll turn around, and he'll see that despite feckless Europe criticising his every action, Britain generally respected the independence of his position and office. He'll find himself invited for tea with the Queen, compare how long it took Obama to obtain that honour, and be flattered/pleased because it implies he is more important. And so on. Probably for the next two or three years. He'll be flattered outrageously, and even though he'll probably know why we're doing it, flattery still works even if you know it's happening. And then once our deal with Europe is done? We can play hardball and re-negotiate whatever we spent the last two years discussing with him in light of our newly strengthened position.

And why shouldn't we? We invite every bargain bin mass murderer/oppressive arab and african warlord to Britain for business, Christ, the Queen did Ceausescu a state visit back in the day. We smile, we let them think that they're important, and then we pick their pockets. It's one of the reasons we're called perfidious Albion. Many State leaders have thought they got the better of us commercially only to find that ten years down the line, their wallet is empty and the revolution is coming, but somehow they still owe us money.

You know that awful feeling of seeing someone you really don’t like, so you do everything you can to avoid them?
Pretend you’re on your phone, walk in the opposite direction, put your headphones in…
Well it turns out the Queen’s just like us because she did exactly the same thing after seeing someone she really didn’t like.


In new revelations told by distinguished royal author Robert Hardman, the Queen allegedly took drastic steps to avoid meeting Romanian dictator Nicolae Ceausescu during his 1978 state visit.
While walking her dogs in the Palace gardens, she spotted Ceausescu and his wife Elena walking towards her.
But instead of stopping to give a (fake) smile, she dodged them altogether by hiding behind a bush rather then getting into small talk with them.


Despite it being the Queen’s duty to be nice to her guests, she was clearly not going to let anything stop her from avoiding a situation she didn’t want to be in.
We totally get it, Liz.

Skullhammer wrote:
With all the open goals from this goverment at the moment guess what corbyn wanted in todays pmq's......

He tried to get may to defend trumps immagration policy and then went on to insult and belittle him in parliment. I'm no fan of trumps but really..... and all the while may is there giving straight answers (for once) and even said the nhs is not for sale now or ever, she even forgot the name of the commity that gets rid of knighthoods and that went right over labours head.

It is bloody sad that the official opposition is so b@#$!ing useless as every goverment need a good opposition i say this as someone who dislikes the current labour lot.(floating voter me).

 Mr. Burning wrote:

Skullhammer wrote:
With all the open goals from this goverment at the moment guess what corbyn wanted in todays pmq's......

He tried to get may to defend trumps immagration policy and then went on to insult and belittle him in parliment. I'm no fan of trumps but really..... and all the while may is there giving straight answers (for once) and even said the nhs is not for sale now or ever, she even forgot the name of the commity that gets rid of knighthoods and that went right over labours head.

It is bloody sad that the official opposition is so b@#$!ing useless as every goverment need a good opposition i say this as someone who dislikes the current labour lot.(floating voter me).

NHS crisis

Housing Crisis

Botched Brexit

I'm not sure the shadow cabinet and leadership are aware of reality.

President Donald Trump has vowed to renegotiate America’s trade deals, and sees the UK’s departure from the European Union an opportunity to do just that.
America’s farmers also see an opportunity. They are lobbying trade negotiators in the hope that Brexit opens the UK to American exports currently held back by EU restrictions: genetically engineered food, beef raised with hormones, and chicken dipped in chlorine. EU rules have long prevented the import of some US-produced foods, a problem that has frustrated negotiations for the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership between the EU and US.
The American Farm Bureau Federation, the country’s main farm lobby, told BuzzFeed News the EU has had “issues over technology” permitted in American food production.
“There is populist concern on GMOs,” for instance, even though the medical community has deemed genetically engineered foods safe for consumption, said Farm Bureau spokesman William Rodger.
The Farm Bureau has not estimated the size of the UK market for such products, “but we do want the opportunity,” Rodger said. As it stands, US exports of agricultural, fish, and forestry products to the UK reached a record $3 billion in 2015, according to the US Department of Commerce. A lot of that was alcohol.
But that could change, with chlorinated birds leading the way.
Some US chicken producers use chlorine baths to disinfect their meat in case it was contaminated during slaughter, a practice that has been banned in Europe since the 1990s. The US is the world’s largest producer of broiler chickens and exported about 19% of production in 2015, with Mexico, Canada, and Hong Kong being the largest export markets, according to the National Chicken Council.
“We’re asking for our chance to compete,” said Rodger. “If Britons are afraid of these techniques, they won’t buy food produced with them. That’s their right, regardless if it’s irrational.”
At a joint news conference with Trump last week, British Prime Minister Theresa May said: “We are discussing how we can establish a trade negotiation agreement, take forward immediate high-level talks, lay the groundwork for UK–US trade agreement, and identify the practical steps we can take now in order to enable companies in both countries to trade and do business with one another more easily.”
GMOs have skyrocketed in American farming since they were introduced two decades ago. Nearly all the soy and corn produced in the US is now genetically engineered, which means most foods sold in America also contain genetically engineered ingredients. According to the the Office of the US Trade Representative, “Currently, exports of US corn have been adversely impacted because of concerns that the exports may contain a low level presence of biotech crops that have not yet received EU approval resulting in the entire shipment being rejected.”
In beef production, the US Food and Drug Administration allows the use of steroid hormones (though not in pork, poultry, or dairy cows). According to the FDA, the hormones “are typically formulated as pellets or ‘implants’ that are placed under the skin on the back side of the animal’s ear. The implants dissolve slowly under the skin and do not require removal. The ears of the treated animals are discarded at slaughter and are not used for human food.”
The EU bans “the import of meat and meat products from animals treated with certain hormones,” which the World Trade Organization in 1998 said violated WTO obligations, as it was not supported by scientific evidence, according to the Office of the US Trade Representative.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
One good point though is that the countryn of origin has to be clearly labelled,

 reds8n wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
One good point though is that the countryn of origin has to be clearly labelled,

That's actually an EU law so will no doubt be done anyway with as we slash all the red tape.


TBf we'll probably keep doing it for our products so we can (hopefully) sell them in the EU too/still.

Herzlos wrote:
So we'd rather be beholder to US control than EU control?

Do we really want to lower ourselves to their standard?

 whembly wrote:

What 'lower' standards?

 Ketara wrote:


Trump is a shyster. He's an old school racist and sexist. He's used to getting his own way. But these things do not mean he is immune to flattery. On the contrary, he's shown a marked inclination in private towards celebrating his Scottish/British roots. He actively wants, I would argue, to be recognised here, possibly even moreso than he does in America (where he expects people to hate him due to the political divide). There's a reason he saw May when he hadn't been in office a week I would hypothesize, and it wasn't purely business.

 whembly wrote:

Herzlos wrote:
So we'd rather be beholder to US control than EU control?

Do we really want to lower ourselves to their standard?

What 'lower' standards?



EDIT: ftr, we have robust 'labeling' requirements in the states as well...

 Whirlwind wrote:

 Ketara wrote:


Trump is a shyster. He's an old school racist and sexist. He's used to getting his own way. But these things do not mean he is immune to flattery. On the contrary, he's shown a marked inclination in private towards celebrating his Scottish/British roots. He actively wants, I would argue, to be recognised here, possibly even moreso than he does in America (where he expects people to hate him due to the political divide). There's a reason he saw May when he hadn't been in office a week I would hypothesize, and it wasn't purely business.

The question is whether we should abandon all of our scoial values just so we can pander to an evil, trivial, little shyster like Trump. I think I'd prefer to take the higher cost of goods from the EU than think that I have sold my soul for a few £'s saving here and there whilst supporting someone that is one small step from being fascism incarnate (if not already there). I'll point out that those that support Trump will likely have a lot of explaining to do to their children when they get asked "What exactly made you think it was a good idea to support him?" I hope folks are willing to accept the condemnation when the answer we can give is "because we were desperate to find anyone to deal with us after Wrexit".

The international community will pigeon hole us in the same way that "Brexiters" are pigeon holed as bigots. This time the UK will be put into the spineless, weak, desperate to appease regardless of cost category. For some like the EU they'll probably wonder how we fell so far so quickly. For others they will see an opportunity to exploit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 whembly wrote:

Herzlos wrote:
So we'd rather be beholder to US control than EU control?

Do we really want to lower ourselves to their standard?

What 'lower' standards?



EDIT: ftr, we have robust 'labeling' requirements in the states as well...

You've tried US chocolate right? It's gross. Unfortunately an American company bought Cadburys out and is turning what was nice chocolate into the same sort of crap. What were firm favourites in the past are now mostly fit for the bin only.

What about bread. It's more akin to cake than proper fresh bread.

 Sentinel1 wrote:
There is now a petition that Trump should be given entry to the UK. Personally pro-Brexit the UK needs trade deals and international friends. The USA is one of the biggest trade links, ... ...

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Sentinel1 wrote:
There is now a petition that Trump should be given entry to the UK. Personally pro-Brexit the UK needs trade deals and international friends. The USA is one of the biggest trade links, ... ...

The fething EU is the biggest fething trade deal and we have fething decided to piss it down the fething drain.