Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Mr Heretek wrote:
Thought this would be interesting, just read last few pages and it makes me feel sick. This isn't UK politics, its the British Right Wing Thread! Anyone with a sensible left wing view is automatically wrong and told what to think by these Right Wing guys. The EU is a good thing, just shows what happens when Right wing takes over!

Whirlwind - you talk sense stand up to these Brit Republicans!

This is nonsense. There's plenty of support for the EU to be found in here. And the 'left wingers' have been giving as good as they get from the right. Go read more of the thread if you don't believe me.

 wuestenfux wrote:

UK has never been really part of Europe. They have always had a special role.
The situation is different for some of the richer main land EU countries, like Germany, Netherlands, and whatnot.
That UK will leave the EU is not a surprise.

This is true. It's hard to explain but our outlook is different to most of Europe. I say most as there's a few countries in there similar to us; Denmark and Holland for example, but otherwise we're very different.

 malamis wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Donald Trump is an idiot. But "evil" is over-reaching.

Hrm, welching suppliers out of payment on contracts, running tennant housing like a slumlord, arguing for the proliferation and use of nuclear weapons, talking about how he gets away with committing what many would consider to be sexual assault, threatening to imprison political rivals, etc goes beyond just "idiot".

Ungentlemanly? Not what we call cricket? Standard practice for effective businessmen?

Trump is an ineffective businessman.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
@ Whirlwind

If remain won the vote on the same margin would you be calling for a second referendum?

He wouldn't have to, Farage stated absolutely that he would be demanding a second referendum.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36306681


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sentinel1 wrote:

 Whirlwind wrote:
Facists! Facists Everywhere!

Debating this any further is a lost cause. Let's agree to disagree okay?

Is that because you can't counter his arguments?

 Sentinel1 wrote:

 Whirlwind wrote:

So you are agreeing that there should be a second referendum?

Certainly not, the Referendum result was perfectly clear, so to were the rules on the winner. If the Inner vote won, I would certainly not be trying to ram another vote argument down everyone's throat. I respect the results of all public votes.

I'm sure you wouldn't, however I'm also sure that euro-sceptics and UKIP would absolutely not have given up the fight, and would be even now pestering and a harassing the tories to give them another go. The DM would have probably burst into a white hot ball of rage.

 Sentinel1 wrote:

 Whirlwind wrote:

Except it will only be a bad thing for children. I find it ironic that many people railed against globalisation with the EU, that protected socially, environmentally and economically those countries in it and now want to have free trade with the rest of the world which provides no social, economic or environmental protection. Those businesses that were protected from Asian power houses flooding the markets with cheap products will disappear because the government is actively courting free trade with them. That means that metal screw manufacturer will now have to compete with an Asian company that can make 5 times the number at much cheaper rates which with a free trade system will mean they simply can't compete. What is likely to happen given current intentions is this and it will screw over your children and my niece and nephew

If we keep down trodding ourselves and expect Brexit to fail, it will fail. I believe free trade is good for everyone. It’s a case of evolve or die and has been for centuries of British trading. As a nation of shop keepers we will evolve to meet new demands. As is always the case some industries die, but new ones are born and develop new opportunities for the future population.

The problem isn't talking Brexit down, the problem will be the actual reactions of business' and the decisions of Govt. I hardly think a handful of posts on this forum are going to plunge the UK into a financial apocalypse.

 Sentinel1 wrote:

 Whirlwind wrote:

It's not. All evidence shows that a significant proportion of the Leave voters were both old and less educated. The majority of those that voted Remain were young and better educated. The older generation generally vote in greater numbers. If you look at the statistics given average death and birth rates and assuming that we maintain current levels of education then in 10 years enough poorly educated old farts will have pegged it and enough young people will become voters (and after considering % of voters per age group) that the country will have become pro-EU. That's doesn't mean every leave voter was an old uneducated fart, just that there were so many of them that they can swing the vote in this way. That's why a lot of young people are angry about the whole issue - people that won't see the consequences of their actions (they will be deader than a Tomb Kings grandfather) have forced through something that younger generation will see and in general don't want.

Traditionalist values tell me we should respect our elders as they build upon the foundations of those that came before them, making it easier for us and the generations to come. The elderly population have earned their right to vote and have far more wisdom and experience than younger generations. They are to be respected as pillars of the community rather than another burden on society they have built.

Oh good.



I'm sure disgraced Minister Liam Fox will make sure everything is fine.

 reds8n wrote:





Oh good.



I'm sure disgraced Minister Liam Fox will make sure everything is fine.

There goes the NHS....

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

I've always seen the EU as a corporate racket, originally supported by the Conservative party, and the free movement of money, goods, and peoples, has not benefited the working classes IMO.

We would never have had the working time directive without the EU, I wonder what wonderous replacement the Tories will come up with?

 r_squared wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
@ Whirlwind

If remain won the vote on the same margin would you be calling for a second referendum?

He wouldn't have to, Farage stated absolutely that he would be demanding a second referendum.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36306681


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sentinel1 wrote:

 Whirlwind wrote:
Facists! Facists Everywhere!

Debating this any further is a lost cause. Let's agree to disagree okay?

Is that because you can't counter his arguments?

 Sentinel1 wrote:

 Whirlwind wrote:

So you are agreeing that there should be a second referendum?

Certainly not, the Referendum result was perfectly clear, so to were the rules on the winner. If the Inner vote won, I would certainly not be trying to ram another vote argument down everyone's throat. I respect the results of all public votes.

I'm sure you wouldn't, however I'm also sure that euro-sceptics and UKIP would absolutely not have given up the fight, and would be even now pestering and a harassing the tories to give them another go. The DM would have probably burst into a white hot ball of rage.

 Sentinel1 wrote:

 Whirlwind wrote:

Except it will only be a bad thing for children. I find it ironic that many people railed against globalisation with the EU, that protected socially, environmentally and economically those countries in it and now want to have free trade with the rest of the world which provides no social, economic or environmental protection. Those businesses that were protected from Asian power houses flooding the markets with cheap products will disappear because the government is actively courting free trade with them. That means that metal screw manufacturer will now have to compete with an Asian company that can make 5 times the number at much cheaper rates which with a free trade system will mean they simply can't compete. What is likely to happen given current intentions is this and it will screw over your children and my niece and nephew

If we keep down trodding ourselves and expect Brexit to fail, it will fail. I believe free trade is good for everyone. It’s a case of evolve or die and has been for centuries of British trading. As a nation of shop keepers we will evolve to meet new demands. As is always the case some industries die, but new ones are born and develop new opportunities for the future population.

The problem isn't talking Brexit down, the problem will be the actual reactions of business' and the decisions of Govt. I hardly think a handful of posts on this forum are going to plunge the UK into a financial apocalypse.

 Sentinel1 wrote:

 Whirlwind wrote:

It's not. All evidence shows that a significant proportion of the Leave voters were both old and less educated. The majority of those that voted Remain were young and better educated. The older generation generally vote in greater numbers. If you look at the statistics given average death and birth rates and assuming that we maintain current levels of education then in 10 years enough poorly educated old farts will have pegged it and enough young people will become voters (and after considering % of voters per age group) that the country will have become pro-EU. That's doesn't mean every leave voter was an old uneducated fart, just that there were so many of them that they can swing the vote in this way. That's why a lot of young people are angry about the whole issue - people that won't see the consequences of their actions (they will be deader than a Tomb Kings grandfather) have forced through something that younger generation will see and in general don't want.

Traditionalist values tell me we should respect our elders as they build upon the foundations of those that came before them, making it easier for us and the generations to come. The elderly population have earned their right to vote and have far more wisdom and experience than younger generations. They are to be respected as pillars of the community rather than another burden on society they have built.

There a lot of clichés in there, but tbf those respected pillars of the community are also the generation called the baby boomers who have taken quite a lot from the UK already, and are notorious for feathering their own nest. Free education, jobs for life, final salary pensions, cheap housing, massive equity, they've done OK.

They also haven't in anyway made it "easier for us and generations to come". My kids will have to pay for their own education, pay for their own pension, have massive job insecurity, and have massively decreased chance of ever own their own home. That's hardly what I'd call easier. They've had it easy, and as they exit stage right, they've just flipped off the upcoming generations with one last feth you.

Whilst also paying for the baby boomers pensions and health and social care. My work pension keeps costing me more, whilst paying out less because it is in deficit. The deficit exited before I joined, yet it still pays out the same to those who were in it when the deficit was built up. I don't mind paying more for less, when I am paying in for what I get out. What I resent is paying to clear someone else's debt. This is what the baby boomers have left us.

These gigantic quote trees to just answer one point is really irritating on a mobile...

 Mr Heretek wrote:
Thought this would be interesting, just read last few pages and it makes me feel sick. This isn't UK politics, its the British Right Wing Thread! Anyone with a sensible left wing view is automatically wrong and told what to think by these Right Wing guys. The EU is a good thing, just shows what happens when Right wing takes over!
Whirlwind - you talk sense stand up to these Brit Republicans!

I don't even know where to begin with this one, this is not a one sided debate, and if you had looked in any great detail it almost goes left, right ,left, right, centre .... etc with how each opinion joins the other. Everyone can have a say without worry, so please join in - the more the better for conversation

 r_squared wrote:

 Sentinel1 wrote:

 Whirlwind wrote:
Facists! Facists Everywhere!

Debating this any further is a lost cause. Let's agree to disagree okay?

Is that because you can't counter his arguments?

Certainly not, it was like talking to a sentient brick wall which thought every right winger or political leader who is in the P.C wrong including everyone else in their country is a fascist. Go figure.

Amendment to Baby-Boomers as follows:
I don't disagree that a lot of current issues stem from the previous Boomer generations. I can't honestly blame them for trying to get a good deal in life, but as time has proven it is unsustainable. Not all old people are society leeches either, as an example my Granddad still works part time as an 84 year old tractor driver with early starts, but I know he is in a minority. I was defending them because I felt it was wrong to disregard their say for better or worse in the Referendum because certain people believe Brexit is totally their fault and should be condemned because they would be dying off without seeing the full impact of Britain down the line.

We would never have had the working time directive without the EU, I wonder what wonderous replacement the Tories will come up with?

Nonsense. New Labour had a strong parliamentary majority for years, so if they wanted to, they could have simply copied the EU directive into British Law.

The only thing stopping it would have been New Labour.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Compel wrote:
These gigantic quote trees to just answer one point is really irritating on a mobile...

I agree, please stop being lazy everybody.

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

 reds8n wrote:





Oh good.



I'm sure disgraced Minister Liam Fox will make sure everything is fine.

There goes the NHS....

I have mixed feelings about US stakes in the NHS. On the one hand the NHS has been slipping for years and private companies have been trickling in on it with agency staff, agency ambulances, private operations paid for by the NHS etc, so it doesn't come as a surprise and might benefit the service depending on what is at stake. I suppose if it was just US doctors and Nurses, it wouldn't be so bad, but I doubt its anything but that. However on the other hand I don't like private companies or the idea of American health care corporations taking an irremovable stake in our healthcare system. Every party has a commitment to keep the NHS going, so I hope we will never see it be privatised, whether down the line the NHS becomes just the legal owner of the hospitals and the governing service over private investments I do not know. Only time will tell...

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

I've always seen the EU as a corporate racket, originally supported by the Conservative party, and the free movement of money, goods, and peoples, has not benefited the working classes IMO.

 Silent Puffin? wrote:
[
We would never have had the working time directive without the EU, I wonder what wonderous replacement the Tories will come up with?

I imagine a wondrous replacement would be a more efficient replacement.

 Sentinel1 wrote:

I imagine a wondrous replacement would be a more efficient replacement.

More efficient how? The Working Time Directive is already an excellent balance between productivity and workers rights.

New Labour=old Tory. I wouldn't have trusty Blair for anything like as good.

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

 Sentinel1 wrote:

I imagine a wondrous replacement would be a more efficient replacement.

More efficient how? The Working Time Directive is already an excellent balance between productivity and workers rights.

New Labour=old Tory. I wouldn't have trusty Blair for anything like as good.

Blair was a snake in the grass the whole time, he was the definition of looking after himself, apart from when he was kissing the shoes of a certain Mr Bush, when they decided to pick on countries that had no W.M.Ds, but that's another story. We are still picking up the fallout of New Labour today.

 Sentinel1 wrote:

Blair was a snake in the grass the whole time, he was the definition of looking after himself, apart from when he was kissing the shoes of a certain Mr Bush, when they decided to pick on countries that had no W.M.Ds, but that's another story. We are still picking up the fallout of New Labour today.

Sounds a bit like May these days doesn't it

 reds8n wrote:





Oh good.



I'm sure disgraced Minister Liam Fox will make sure everything is fine.

Hey, now you will get to experience the wonders of going bankrupt from essential medical as well!

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 malamis wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Donald Trump is an idiot. But "evil" is over-reaching.

Hrm, welching suppliers out of payment on contracts, running tennant housing like a slumlord, arguing for the proliferation and use of nuclear weapons, talking about how he gets away with committing what many would consider to be sexual assault, threatening to imprison political rivals, etc goes beyond just "idiot".

Ungentlemanly? Not what we call cricket? Standard practice for effective businessmen?

Trump is an ineffective businessman.

Based on what metric?

He's managed to prosper himself to a notable extent - the organisations he comes in contact with, not so much.

As I understand it, it's more like: "His father, grandfather and greatgrandfather has managed to prosper him to a notable extent."

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


I've always seen the EU as a corporate racket, originally supported by the Conservative party, and the free movement of money, goods, and peoples, has not benefited the working classes IMO.

Which is due to the fact that people vote right-wing, conservative parties into the EU, not because the EU inherently feths with people.

Back in the 1970s in the UK, the Tories wanted the UK in the EEC, but Labour wanted out. Nowadays, it's the opposite.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 wuestenfux wrote:

I've always seen the EU as a corporate racket, originally supported by the Conservative party, and the free movement of money, goods, and peoples, has not benefited the working classes IMO.

UK has never been really part of Europe. They have always had a special role.
The situation is different for some of the richer main land EU countries, like Germany, Netherlands, and whatnot.
That UK will leave the EU is not a surprise.

The irony is, that the UK pushed for the single market, and pushed for more expansion


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And another thing that gets my goat is the idea that without the EU, Britain will be at the mercy of the Tories, but people are forgetting their British history.

Labour introduced more and better workers protections in the 1960s/70s, decriminalised same sex relationships, gave more/better maternity rights etc etc long before we joined the EEC/EU

Yes, Labour are a shambles these days, but the Tories won't rule for ever, and if people want their rights protected, they'll have to stand up for the, same as it always was...

The irony is, that the UK pushed for the single market, and pushed for more expansion

Without the EU, UK has to look for good deals. Not sure what Trump understands under a good deal, but it should be win-win situations for all participating countries.
A good deal with the EU will be problematic. No more free access to the EU market. The models between EU and Switzerland, Norway, and Russia are all different and not very good for these countries. I could imagine that UK will have to pay 10 billions per year to get reasonable access. Otherwise, the British have to drive their straightforward Vauxalls and the access to German premium cars could be much more expensive.
And then UK can make good deals with Trump aka USA, Erdogan, Putin and whoever they want. Not a very good prospect.

 wuestenfux wrote:

The irony is, that the UK pushed for the single market, and pushed for more expansion

Without the EU, UK has to look for good deals. Not sure what Trump understands under a good deal, but it should be win-win situations for all participating countries.
A good deal with the EU will be problematic. No more free access to the EU market. The models between EU and Switzerland, Norway, and Russia are all different and not very good for these countries. I could imagine that UK will have to pay 10 billions per year to get reasonable access. Otherwise, the British have to drive their straightforward Vauxalls and the access to German premium cars could be much more expensive.
And then UK can make good deals with Trump aka USA, Erdogan, Putin and whoever they want. Not a very good prospect.

Nothing wrong with a Vauxhall. I look back fondly on the days of the Vauxhall Cavalier

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

The irony is, that the UK pushed for the single market, and pushed for more expansion

Without the EU, UK has to look for good deals. Not sure what Trump understands under a good deal, but it should be win-win situations for all participating countries.
A good deal with the EU will be problematic. No more free access to the EU market. The models between EU and Switzerland, Norway, and Russia are all different and not very good for these countries. I could imagine that UK will have to pay 10 billions per year to get reasonable access. Otherwise, the British have to drive their straightforward Vauxalls and the access to German premium cars could be much more expensive.
And then UK can make good deals with Trump aka USA, Erdogan, Putin and whoever they want. Not a very good prospect.

Nothing wrong with a Vauxhall. I look back fondly on the days of the Vauxhall Cavalier

No, definitely not.

 malamis wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 malamis wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Donald Trump is an idiot. But "evil" is over-reaching.

Hrm, welching suppliers out of payment on contracts, running tennant housing like a slumlord, arguing for the proliferation and use of nuclear weapons, talking about how he gets away with committing what many would consider to be sexual assault, threatening to imprison political rivals, etc goes beyond just "idiot".

Ungentlemanly? Not what we call cricket? Standard practice for effective businessmen?

Trump is an ineffective businessman.

Based on what metric?

He's managed to prosper himself to a notable extent - the organisations he comes in contact with, not so much.

People have made estimates that Trump would be wealthier now if he had just taken the money and property portfolio left to him by his father and stuck them in a fund to accrue interest. Trump's business growth has lagged behind the growth of the stock market average, so by that metric he is a below average businessman at the very least.

http://fortune.com/2015/08/20/donald-trump-index-funds/

 wuestenfux wrote:

The irony is, that the UK pushed for the single market, and pushed for more expansion

Without the EU, UK has to look for good deals. Not sure what Trump understands under a good deal, but it should be win-win situations for all participating countries.
A good deal with the EU will be problematic. No more free access to the EU market. The models between EU and Switzerland, Norway, and Russia are all different and not very good for these countries. I could imagine that UK will have to pay 10 billions per year to get reasonable access. Otherwise, the British have to drive their straightforward Vauxalls and the access to German premium cars could be much more expensive.
And then UK can make good deals with Trump aka USA, Erdogan, Putin and whoever they want. Not a very good prospect.

Donald Trump will always try and get the best deal for the USA over another, but with his ancestry, links to Scottish Golf Courses and wanting to improve a public image, I believe we will get a fair deal from the USA. The only thing stopping the process is literally the EU, now I could understand them being greedy and not wanting member countries having deals on the side, but when you know a country is leaving anyway, why don't they relax the rules and allow us to start negotiating a deal with the USA? - because it is the EU, some say 'the end justifies the means', but for the EU 'the means is an end in itself'.

If we leave with no access to the single market, I think it would be outrageous to pay any contribution fee. The EU countries won't want to lose trade the other way and I'm sure it would work out cheaper without paying access fee and just have a tariff fee on goods visa versa.

Vauxhalls are straight forward British cars, that underneath are the same as Opels and to so extent Australian Holdens too. So really they are more German than anything, like pretty much all surviving British Cars produced today, so they are nothing to be snuffed out. I could say that German cars are overrated, party because they are and are overpriced for what you get, but they are still good cars. You must remember that if you are right and German cars are too expensive for British people, then the German car manufacturers would loose out profit wise and market share and that's the last thing a company like VW would want again.

At least the UK will soon be able to make more trade deals without having the results vetted by a third party any more

 Sentinel1 wrote:

 Whirlwind wrote:
Facists! Facists Everywhere!

Debating this any further is a lost cause. Let's agree to disagree okay?

We can disagree, but I'd appreciate it though if you'd actually quote me correctly rather than include a statement that I didn't actually say, as that is not a balanced way of having a debate.

Certainly not, the Referendum result was perfectly clear, so to were the rules on the winner. If the Inner vote won, I would certainly not be trying to ram another vote argument down everyone's throat. I respect the results of all public votes.

You are missing the point with what I am saying though. We never have had a referendum on what Brexit should look like. We had an advisory referendum on whether we should be in or out. What is happening now has no mandate by the public either through a GE or referendum. We are getting a direction whether we like it or not, and in a manner that polls indicate a majority don't want (even if they do want to leave EU). One of the argument was that by leaving the EU we 'take back control' (although the white paper has successfully debunked that) and yet we have less control now because the public has no voice on what it should look like.

 Whirlwind wrote:

If we keep down trodding ourselves and expect Brexit to fail, it will fail. I believe free trade is good for everyone. It’s a case of evolve or die and has been for centuries of British trading. As a nation of shop keepers we will evolve to meet new demands. As is always the case some industries die, but new ones are born and develop new opportunities for the future population.

It's not being downtrodden. It's about a realistic expectation of what is likely to happen with a free trade market. If you are so adamant free trade is good for everyone, why are you so keen to leave the EU, the largest free trade block in the world? At least in the EU everyone has to play by the same rules. You will have none of this protection as part of a global trade market. How are the non-skilled workers making those metal screws with a mandatory minimum wage of £11,000 or so going to be able to compete with companies elsewhere where they can pay a few £'s a week (if not less). I'm honestly fascinated to understand how you think an uncontrolled free trade will benefit everyone when for a large number of those countries we will have more 'onerous' environmental, social and economic requirements (even though they provide a much better quality of living). How are the unskilled employees going to be able to compete?

Traditionalist values tell me we should respect our elders as they build upon the foundations of those that came before them, making it easier for us and the generations to come. The elderly population have earned their right to vote and have far more wisdom and experience than younger generations. They are to be respected as pillars of the community rather than another burden on society they have built.

Seriously? So rather than science, data, evidence and those things that develop society we should just resort to "my dad/mum/grandfather/grandmother says so". This is not a healthy way of developing society. On this basis anyone under the age of 60 shouldn't be allowed to vote surely? You cannot work on the principle of what elders think is best because they grew up and developed in a society that was profoundly different to ours. Every generation has different issues, technology and so on which have to dealt with at the time. However, I find it amusing to think that some people here are much younger than I am, so hence as their elder you should be demanding to stay in the EU....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
@ Whirlwind

If remain won the vote on the same margin would you be calling for a second referendum?

I've answered this before, but I'll repeat. If the Remain won and, for example, promised that they would not join the Euro and so on and effect every one of the things they lobbied for then turned out to be a fabrication; then yes I would argue that there should be a second referendum because in the same way as what is happening with Brexit, the populace are not having a say in the outcome and decisions were being railroaded through for the benefit of the incumbent party.


@Heretek and @r-squared.

Thanks for the support. It is appreciated!

 Sentinel1 wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

The irony is, that the UK pushed for the single market, and pushed for more expansion

Without the EU, UK has to look for good deals. Not sure what Trump understands under a good deal, but it should be win-win situations for all participating countries.
A good deal with the EU will be problematic. No more free access to the EU market. The models between EU and Switzerland, Norway, and Russia are all different and not very good for these countries. I could imagine that UK will have to pay 10 billions per year to get reasonable access. Otherwise, the British have to drive their straightforward Vauxalls and the access to German premium cars could be much more expensive.
And then UK can make good deals with Trump aka USA, Erdogan, Putin and whoever they want. Not a very good prospect.

Donald Trump will always try and get the best deal for the USA over another, but with his ancestry, links to Scottish Golf Courses and wanting to improve a public image, I believe we will get a fair deal from the USA. The only thing stopping the process is literally the EU, now I could understand them being greedy and not wanting member countries having deals on the side, but when you know a country is leaving anyway, why don't they relax the rules and allow us to start negotiating a deal with the USA? - because it is the EU, some say 'the end justifies the means', but for the EU 'the means is an end in itself'.

I think your faith in his "loyalty to his golf course interests" and familial connection maybe a little optimistic. Personally I think we're just being positioned for a good shafting, but we'll see. His history with dealing with smaller, weaker negotiators and business partners bears this out.

 Sentinel1 wrote:
If we leave with no access to the single market, I think it would be outrageous to pay any contribution fee. The EU countries won't want to lose trade the other way and I'm sure it would work out cheaper without paying access fee and just have a tariff fee on goods visa versa.

Not sure what you're saying here? If you think it'll be cheaper to trade with just tariffs, rather than paying a continuation towards access to the single market, you're missing the point, by quite a lot.
Our imports and exports are negligible compared to the contribution towards the economy which the service sector which makes, which is about 75% of our economy. Without the passporting made possible by membership, or at least an agreed access to the single market which we will almost certainly have to pay for with a contribution of some kind, we stand to lose a lot more than any tariffs could make up for.

 Whirlwind wrote:
We can disagree, but I'd appreciate it though if you'd actually quote me correctly rather than include a statement that I didn't actually say, as that is not a balanced way of having a debate.

Please accept my humble apology, in my laziness I didn’t want to quote a huge stream of text. That and it makes me chuckle. It won’t happen again.

 Whirlwind wrote:
You are missing the point with what I am saying though. We never have had a referendum on what Brexit should look like. We had an advisory referendum on whether we should be in or out. What is happening now has no mandate by the public either through a GE or referendum. We are getting a direction whether we like it or not, and in a manner that polls indicate a majority don't want (even if they do want to leave EU). One of the argument was that by leaving the EU we 'take back control' (although the white paper has successfully debunked that) and yet we have less control now because the public has no voice on what it should look like.

If I may point out, the British public have to my mind never had a chance to vote on what the EU developed into. When this country voted to be part of the EU it was all for free trade, not political inclusiveness and conforming to European standards.

 Whirlwind wrote:
It's not being downtrodden. It's about a realistic expectation of what is likely to happen with a free trade market. If you are so adamant free trade is good for everyone, why are you so keen to leave the EU, the largest free trade block in the world? At least in the EU everyone has to play by the same rules. You will have none of this protection as part of a global trade market. How are the non-skilled workers making those metal screws with a mandatory minimum wage of £11,000 or so going to be able to compete with companies elsewhere where they can pay a few £'s a week (if not less). I'm honestly fascinated to understand how you think an uncontrolled free trade will benefit everyone when for a large number of those countries we will have more 'onerous' environmental, social and economic requirements (even though they provide a much better quality of living). How are the unskilled employees going to be able to compete

As I have mentioned it is a case of evolve or die, British businesses will not overnight begin laying off staff and closing down, it should be business as usual. Let’s take the screw study for example. The screw company won’t suddenly lose all its clients because of Brexit. Even if the screw trade collapsed you still have a trained workforce and all that tooling, it wouldn’t take much to turn a screw factory into a factory that produced similar, precise metal components in demand. Also let’s say business dealings go sour with a certain country that’s adversely affecting British industry, simple stick a tariff on their goods to make them less competitive. What I believe the UK government should focus on after Brexit is looking after home grown business, by that I mean all government projects should be funded by British products like screws and steel e.g. HS2 or whatever else they think up. It might cost the taxpayer more, but it would be better for the British economy. Whether this would ever take place I don’t know.

 Whirlwind wrote:
Seriously? So rather than science, data, evidence and those things that develop society we should just resort to "my dad/mum/grandfather/grandmother says so". This is not a healthy way of developing society. On this basis anyone under the age of 60 shouldn't be allowed to vote surely? You cannot work on the principle of what elders think is best because they grew up and developed in a society that was profoundly different to ours. Every generation has different issues, technology and so on which have to dealt with at the time. However, I find it amusing to think that some people here are much younger than I am, so hence as their elder you should be demanding to stay in the EU....

You misunderstand my point, I am not saying the older generations opinion overrules everyone else’s, rather their vote still counts in the Referendum just like everyone else’s. Using the excuse Brexit won because of the older generation and that’s unfair because they will be dead before they see the apocalypse they created –(or your words to that effect) is wrong and ageist.

 r_squared wrote:
I think your faith in his "loyalty to his golf course interests" and familial connection maybe a little optimistic. Personally I think we're just being positioned for a good shafting, but we'll see. His history with dealing with smaller, weaker negotiators and business partners bears this out.

What can I say – I am a fatal optimist until proven wrong. My money is on a good trade deal for several reasons excluding sentimental links and business interest I have already mentioned. Firstly Trumps popularity could tank further, an excellent trade deal is just the sort of thing he would like to preach is success. Secondly Trump doesn’t have many allies, he will want to keep Britain close. Thirdly he doesn’t like Merkel and isn’t too keen on the EU so may like to support Britain as a political non-EU interest. Time will prove me right or wrong.

 r_squared wrote:
Not sure what you're saying here? If you think it'll be cheaper to trade with just tariffs, rather than paying a continuation towards access to the single market, you're missing the point, by quite a lot. Our imports and exports are negligible compared to the contribution towards the economy which the service sector which makes, which is about 75% of our economy. Without the passporting made possible by membership, or at least an agreed access to the single market which we will almost certainly have to pay for with a contribution of some kind, we stand to lose a lot more than any tariffs could make up for.

I am hoping there will be a way round this to make the UK the place to go do business with. I don’t have any feasible ideas at the minute.

 Sentinel1 wrote:
I don’t have any feasible ideas at the minute.

You have summed up everything you have said in this debate in that line! Unlike Whirlwind or r_squarred who actually gives you factual evidence and doesn't lie about what people say you have just spoken your opinion like it should be fact when it is 1) wrong or 2) can't be proven one way or the other

I am not British but am staying in UK atm, I have taken an interest in your voting to leave result. To me as an outsider it is people like you that misled your country. Leaving Europe is a bad, stupid and backward move. You had all those friends, free trade and you couldn't get on and left because you wanted more pumpkin pie. I think you will regret your choices and will certainly feel how hard it is to make real trade deals. You presume free trades deals are instant, in fact it takes years and years and years.

 Mr Heretek wrote:

 Sentinel1 wrote:
I don’t have any feasible ideas at the minute.

You have summed up everything you have said in this debate in that line! Unlike Whirlwind or r_squarred who actually gives you factual evidence and doesn't lie about what people say you have just spoken your opinion like it should be fact when it is 1) wrong or 2) can't be proven one way or the other

I am not British but am staying in UK atm, I have taken an interest in your voting to leave result. To me as an outsider it is people like you that misled your country. Leaving Europe is a bad, stupid and backward move. You had all those friends, free trade and you couldn't get on and left because you wanted more pumpkin pie. I think you will regret your choices and will certainly feel how hard it is to make real trade deals. You presume free trades deals are instant, in fact it takes years and years and years.

I respect your opinion, but your opinion shows you are hypocritical because you state I am wrong as if it is fact when clearly it is just that you don't agree with what I have to say. I am pleased other nationals take an interest in the UK leaving the EU and I welcome more people to this debate, but I don't think you understand the reasons people voted to leave. Currently there isn't many facts to support Brexit because it hasn't been done before, we are history in the making. Of course people can pull up articles, polls and statistics that forecast bad news but it is circumstantial and usually overly negative. Now don't miss quote me I am not saying they are wrong, just it might not be as clear as it seems.

 Sentinel1 wrote:
I respect your opinion, but your opinion shows you are hypocritical because you state I am wrong as if it is fact when clearly it is just that you don't agree with what I have to say. I am pleased other nationals take an interest in the UK leaving the EU and I welcome more people to this debate, but I don't think you understand the reasons people voted to leave. Currently there isn't many facts to support Brexit because it hasn't been done before, we are history in the making. Of course people can pull up articles, polls and statistics that forecast bad news but it is circumstantial and usually overly negative. Now don't miss quote me I am not saying they are wrong, just it might not be as clear as it seems.

I think I do understand what is going on, so you can't say I am clueless. I might as well say you don't know what your taking about in the US politics thread because your British. That would be wrong too! Until you can prove YOUR VERSION with facts I will remain unconvinced. Also no offence but some of your ideas are not thought out, you have just as much chance convincing people Brexit would work if you said 'Just move the other countries closer to England and then the UK has all the worlds trade'. The problem with Right Conservatives is its all opinion and no truth, the left has the answers but not the guts to speak up and that's why the British people were tricked.

 Mr Heretek wrote:

 Sentinel1 wrote:
I respect your opinion, but your opinion shows you are hypocritical because you state I am wrong as if it is fact when clearly it is just that you don't agree with what I have to say. I am pleased other nationals take an interest in the UK leaving the EU and I welcome more people to this debate, but I don't think you understand the reasons people voted to leave. Currently there isn't many facts to support Brexit because it hasn't been done before, we are history in the making. Of course people can pull up articles, polls and statistics that forecast bad news but it is circumstantial and usually overly negative. Now don't miss quote me I am not saying they are wrong, just it might not be as clear as it seems.

I think I do understand what is going on, so you can't say I am clueless. I might as well say you don't know what your taking about in the US politics thread because your British. That would be wrong too! Until you can prove YOUR VERSION with facts I will remain unconvinced. Also no offence but some of your ideas are not thought out, you have just as much chance convincing people Brexit would work if you said 'Just move the other countries closer to England and then the UK has all the worlds trade'. The problem with Right Conservatives is its all opinion and no truth, the left has the answers but not the guts to speak up and that's why the British people were tricked.

I say again, I respect your opinion but your tone is coming across bullish and confrontational, so I am going offline now. Here is your leftist liberal victory - enjoy it for now

 Mr Heretek wrote:

 Sentinel1 wrote:
I don’t have any feasible ideas at the minute.

You have summed up everything you have said in this debate in that line! Unlike Whirlwind or r_squarred who actually gives you factual evidence and doesn't lie about what people say you have just spoken your opinion like it should be fact when it is 1) wrong or 2) can't be proven one way or the other

I am not British but am staying in UK atm, I have taken an interest in your voting to leave result. To me as an outsider it is people like you that misled your country. Leaving Europe is a bad, stupid and backward move. You had all those friends, free trade and you couldn't get on and left because you wanted more pumpkin pie. I think you will regret your choices and will certainly feel how hard it is to make real trade deals. You presume free trades deals are instant, in fact it takes years and years and years.

Could you tone down the flaming please? You're being borderline rude. You've only just joined this discussion, but you instantly began pontificating and virtue signalling and denigrating the people in this thread who you disagree with.

We are not leaving Europe. Do you think we're packing up our island and buggering off to the other side of the Atlantic in a sulk? We're leaving the European Union, a political organisation which a majority of voters have decided is not in our nation interests. Europe does not equal the European Union. It never has and never will. We'll continue cooperating with individual European nations, but this time on our own terms, like Norway and Switzerland and other European countries who have decided they prefer national independence but still cooperate and get along perfectly well with the rest of Europe. If you think we're bad and stupid and backwards for choosing to leave the EU, what do you think of countries that have chosen not to join?

Jeez, from your hostile and apocalyptic tone you'd think Britain has declared war on Europe.

I think you will regret your choices and will certainly feel how hard it is to make real trade deals. You presume free trades deals are instant, in fact it takes years and years and years.

So what? It took the EU and Canada a decade to conclude a trade deal. Trade continued, and the sky did not fall. Life went on.