Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The issue of Gibralter is not a massive 'bombshell' or a vengeful streak. It is simply the EU being pragmatic. It is opening the doors for Britain and Spain to negotiate, and if they can then a deal could be put forward to the council that Spain will not veto. If, however the talks broke down, Gibralter will just be straight out and the EU will not get dragged into a bilateral disagreement it really wants no part in.
All the EU has done is place the ball into the courts for Spain and the UK to sort out between themselves.

 Optio wrote:
The issue of Gibralter is not a massive 'bombshell' or a vengeful streak. It is simply the EU being pragmatic. It is opening the doors for Britain and Spain to negotiate, and if they can then a deal could be put forward to the council that Spain will not veto. If, however the talks broke down, Gibralter will just be straight out and the EU will not get dragged into a bilateral disagreement it really wants no part in.
All the EU has done is place the ball into the courts for Spain and the UK to sort out between themselves.

I think we should ask Morocco what it thinks.

Spain needs to be told in no uncertain terms that Gibraltar is British. They voted to stay British, twice. It's over.

 Optio wrote:
The issue of Gibralter is not a massive 'bombshell' or a vengeful streak. It is simply the EU being pragmatic. It is opening the doors for Britain and Spain to negotiate, and if they can then a deal could be put forward to the council that Spain will not veto. If, however the talks broke down, Gibralter will just be straight out and the EU will not get dragged into a bilateral disagreement it really wants no part in.
All the EU has done is place the ball into the courts for Spain and the UK to sort out between themselves.

Gibraltar? Gibraltar? Who gives a flying about Gibraltar!?

No disrespect to Gibraltar or dakka members from there, but I cannot see where the EU is coming from on this. I would have thought they had enough problems on their plate with:

ISIL fighters returning to Europe.

Syria and the refugees.

Turkey looking shaky.

Greece is a mess.

A possible peace in Cyprus being jepordised if the UK, which is a backer with Greece and Turkey, pulling out.

Italy and its banks.

And of course the economic problems in the clubmed members.

Plus Brexit talks.

And yet, instead of having a fair set of talks with the UK, with both sides giving and taking to reach a fair deal for everybody, they drop Gibraltar into the mix, and could thus cause a crisis in NATO...

Holy horsegak!!!

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Spain needs to be told in no uncertain terms that Gibraltar is British. They voted to stay British, twice. It's over.

Sure, we can tell them that. The EU has just prevented it being an issue in the main deal. Sure, it sucks for Gibralter, but as NI and Scotland have already discovered, voting remain means nothing.

For the record, I don't want things to be like this. But to put it bluntly, you can't let others treat you like a door mat.

The EU is being about as Real Politik as anyone else is. If the EU were really as dead set on ruining the UK as badly as some people make it out like they are, things would be far more ugly. Stuff like British banks being denied financial passporting rights, hard insistence on WTO trade rules with no negotiation, protectionist tariffs, nonreciprocation of residency status stuff, etc.

That said it should also be recognized that it is the EU that holds the better hand in the negotiations, and is absolutely going to use it, and that nobody seemed to really think about that when voting for Brexit. It's going to hurt. The UK is going to have to deal with a ton of things it didnt think would come up, and nobody did even minimal planning on what any of these would actually mean, both internal and external issues.

Even if one is all for Brexit for whatever reasons one may have, the way the UK government has handled this, and then insisted on pushing through anyway once it realized it wasnt prepared, should be appalling. It's like the angry kid that declares they're moving out on their 18th birthday and has burned their bridges, but suddenly realizes that they have no plan and no place lined up and their birthday is in two days. Can they make it work? Yeah sometimes. Was that wise? Perhaps a plan would have helped.

 Optio wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Spain needs to be told in no uncertain terms that Gibraltar is British. They voted to stay British, twice. It's over.

Sure, we can tell them that. The EU has just prevented it being an issue in the main deal. Sure, it sucks for Gibralter, but as NI and Scotland have already discovered, voting remain means nothing.

Ah yes, you are referring to those two regions of the U.K. That are not countries and yet people always bring up as if they are. Unfortunately the UK is not a federation of states, it is a single state. Until such time that we are a federation, what Scotland and NI have to say about anything when taken as a whole is a mute point. The U.K. Voted to leave, not just England and Wales.

As opposed to Gibraltar, which is an overseas territory and that voted 99% to 1% against having dual citizenship with Spain.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


No disrespect to Gibraltar or dakka members from there, but I cannot see where the EU is coming from on this. I would have thought they had enough problems on their plate with:

What you and everyone else commenting so far have missed, is that this is pure realpolitik. It's basic negotiating strategy. Literally textbook.

I'll elucidate. It comes down to three essential points.

The first is morale related. When the other chap thinks he got the best of you on something, he's more likely to feel good about whatever deal is eventually made, that he is in control. So by throwing something you know is one of their red lines on the table and then subsequently withdrawing from it, you make them feel good, and be more likely to swallow whatever you got out of the negotiation to your advantage.

The second is the 'quid pro quo' instinct. You begin every negotiation by naming something vastly out of proportion to what you expect to get. That way, when you withdraw from it, you can prompt the other fellow to give something back in your favour. You never have any real intent of getting what you initially name, the point is that you can say, 'well, we're willing to concede on this, but then you need to concede on something too'.

The final point is misdirection. By throwing out the hook related to a red line early, it distracts attention from other more important negotiating objectives of yours, which might be almost as unpalatable to the other side. But they're so focused on that first hook that they don't notice the rest of them inserted into the water subsequently.


The EU doesn't give a damn about Gibraltar. This is just the first of what will be several salvoes back and forth across the channel. I've no doubt that May will throw something equally ridiculous back at some point. There'll be much frothing and newspaper headlines and frenzies over the next few years relating to this sort of thing, and nobody actually sitting in the negotiations will be taking it seriously. So nobody else should either. Grab a drink, and tune back in in 20 months when something of substance might actually be being aired.

 Ketara wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


No disrespect to Gibraltar or dakka members from there, but I cannot see where the EU is coming from on this. I would have thought they had enough problems on their plate with:

What you and everyone else commenting so far have missed, is that this is pure realpolitik. It's basic negotiating strategy. Literally textbook.

I'll elucidate. It comes down to three essential points.

The first is morale related. When the other chap thinks he got the best of you on something, he's more likely to feel good about whatever deal is eventually made, that he is in control. So by throwing something you know is one of their red lines on the table and then subsequently withdrawing from it, you make them feel good, and be more likely to swallow whatever you got out of the negotiation to your advantage.

The second is the 'quid pro quo' instinct. You begin every negotiation by naming something vastly out of proportion to what you expect to get. That way, when you withdraw from it, you can prompt the other fellow to give something back in your favour. You never have any real intent of getting what you initially name, the point is that you can say, 'well, we're willing to concede on this, but then you need to concede on something too'.

The final point is misdirection. By throwing out the hook related to a red line early, it distracts attention from other more important negotiating objectives of yours, which might be almost as unpalatable to the other side. But they're so focused on that first hook that they don't notice the rest of them inserted into the water subsequently.


The EU doesn't give a damn about Gibraltar. This is just the first of what will be several salvoes back and forth across the channel. I've no doubt that May will throw something equally ridiculous back at some point. There'll be much frothing and newspaper headlines and frenzies over the next few years relating to this sort of thing, and nobody actually sitting in the negotiations will be taking it seriously. So nobody else should either. Grab a drink, and tune back in in 20 months when something of substance might actually be being aired.

If it were a dispute between the UK and the EU over straight bananas, then I'd share your confidence. But it's not.

People talk about the EU being united, but Euro skepticism is alive and well in the EU and emboldened by the UK's withdrawal. Brussels knows this and is trying to keep a lid on it.

They have to make an example of the UK or the jig is up for the EU superstate.

Did anyone read what I said? This was a move of pragmatism. It has prevented Spain having any ammunition over the final deal. Yes it sucks, Gibralter has been sacrificed as a pawn, such is politics. The logic is cruel but it is clear, it will benefit most of us too!

 Vaktathi wrote:
The EU is being about as Real Politik as anyone else is. If the EU were really as dead set on ruining the UK as badly as some people make it out like they are, things would be far more ugly. Stuff like British banks being denied financial passporting rights, hard insistence on WTO trade rules with no negotiation, protectionist tariffs, nonreciprocation of residency status stuff, etc.

That said it should also be recognized that it is the EU that holds the better hand in the negotiations, and is absolutely going to use it, and that nobody seemed to really think about that when voting for Brexit. It's going to hurt. The UK is going to have to deal with a ton of things it didnt think would come up, and nobody did even minimal planning on what any of these would actually mean, both internal and external issues.

Even if one is all for Brexit for whatever reasons one may have, the way the UK government has handled this, and then insisted on pushing through anyway once it realized it wasnt prepared, should be appalling. It's like the angry kid that declares they're moving out on their 18th birthday and has burned their bridges, but suddenly realizes that they have no plan and no place lined up and their birthday is in two days. Can they make it work? Yeah sometimes. Was that wise? Perhaps a plan would have helped.

London is Europe's financial capital and has been the merchant banker of the EU for years. Hurting the UK would only hurt them and they know it.

And with the UK pulling out, there is a massive black hole in the EU's balance sheet. We are the 2nd biggest contributor. I doubt if German and Dutch taxpayers will be happy at footing the bill to plug the shortfall.

Except we can't sacrifice the most British place in the world!

 Optio wrote:
Did anyone read what I said? This was a move of pragmatism. It has prevented Spain having any ammunition over the final deal. Yes it sucks, Gibralter has been sacrificed as a pawn, such is politics. The logic is cruel but it is clear, it will benefit most of us too!

Eh? The Spanish have a veto on this. Senior EU sources talk about backing the member state i.e Spain

And, even if Gibraltar was off the table, every three man parish council in the EU from France's Atlantic coasts to the Polish border have a veto on the final deal.

Cue Flanders pulling the plug when the T's aren't properly crossed.

And today I read that there are over 12,000 bits of EU regulation in British law!!!!

12,000 Regulations!!! Holy horsegak!

Quite frankly, I'm glad to see the back of this bureaucratic montrosity.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
The EU is being about as Real Politik as anyone else is. If the EU were really as dead set on ruining the UK as badly as some people make it out like they are, things would be far more ugly. Stuff like British banks being denied financial passporting rights, hard insistence on WTO trade rules with no negotiation, protectionist tariffs, nonreciprocation of residency status stuff, etc.

That said it should also be recognized that it is the EU that holds the better hand in the negotiations, and is absolutely going to use it, and that nobody seemed to really think about that when voting for Brexit. It's going to hurt. The UK is going to have to deal with a ton of things it didnt think would come up, and nobody did even minimal planning on what any of these would actually mean, both internal and external issues.

Even if one is all for Brexit for whatever reasons one may have, the way the UK government has handled this, and then insisted on pushing through anyway once it realized it wasnt prepared, should be appalling. It's like the angry kid that declares they're moving out on their 18th birthday and has burned their bridges, but suddenly realizes that they have no plan and no place lined up and their birthday is in two days. Can they make it work? Yeah sometimes. Was that wise? Perhaps a plan would have helped.

London is Europe's financial capital and has been the merchant banker of the EU for years. Hurting the UK would only hurt them and they know it.

Aye, and that's why the EU is not going out of its way to be outright punitive with the UK on every possible count, but that doesnt change the fact that the EU has the better bargaining position by far, and that the UK's planning and execution has been...well, appallingly inadequate, shifting futher favor to the EU.

And with the UK pulling out, there is a massive black hole in the EU's balance sheet. We are the 2nd biggest contributor. I doubt if German and Dutch taxpayers will be happy at footing the bill to plug the shortfall.

sure, and that is another card in the UK's favor, the UK does have some, but the UK has made it clear that it is leaving, that EU funding will be gone and the power it allows the UK to wield will be gone with it, and the EU will have to adapt either way so its value in the negotiations wont be terribly outstanding for the UK.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
The EU is being about as Real Politik as anyone else is. If the EU were really as dead set on ruining the UK as badly as some people make it out like they are, things would be far more ugly. Stuff like British banks being denied financial passporting rights, hard insistence on WTO trade rules with no negotiation, protectionist tariffs, nonreciprocation of residency status stuff, etc.

That said it should also be recognized that it is the EU that holds the better hand in the negotiations, and is absolutely going to use it, and that nobody seemed to really think about that when voting for Brexit. It's going to hurt. The UK is going to have to deal with a ton of things it didnt think would come up, and nobody did even minimal planning on what any of these would actually mean, both internal and external issues.

Even if one is all for Brexit for whatever reasons one may have, the way the UK government has handled this, and then insisted on pushing through anyway once it realized it wasnt prepared, should be appalling. It's like the angry kid that declares they're moving out on their 18th birthday and has burned their bridges, but suddenly realizes that they have no plan and no place lined up and their birthday is in two days. Can they make it work? Yeah sometimes. Was that wise? Perhaps a plan would have helped.

London is Europe's financial capital and has been the merchant banker of the EU for years. Hurting the UK would only hurt them and they know it.

Aye, and that's why the EU is not going out of its way to be outright punitive with the UK on every possible count, but that doesnt change the fact that the EU has the better bargaining position by far, and that the UK's planning and execution has been...well, appallingly inadequate, shifting futher favor to the EU.

And with the UK pulling out, there is a massive black hole in the EU's balance sheet. We are the 2nd biggest contributor. I doubt if German and Dutch taxpayers will be happy at footing the bill to plug the shortfall.

sure, and that is another card in the UK's favor, the UK does have some, but the UK has made it clear that it is leaving, that EU funding will be gone and the power it allows the UK to wield will be gone with it, and the EU will have to adapt either way so its value in the negotiations wont be terribly outstanding for the UK.

Yeah, I have to agree with you - the planning has been gak poor.

Our last Prime Minister, David Cameron, abanodoned ship the day after the referendum, and is now making £10,000 a speech on the lecture tour.

A lot of people in the UK laugh at America for electing Trump, but quite frankly, we're in no position to do so as the people we elect these days are not worth a bucket of horsegak!

I find it slightly bizarre that there seem to be a lot of people moaning about Brexit even though they supported the idea of leaving. It really is time to wake up now. The EU now no longer needs to consider the UK's best interests only for those countries remaining. As such it does not have to mediate between Spain and UK on Gibraltar. The EU will just support Spain. The EU does not need to think of the UKs best interest in the upcoming negotiations, if an area that is in the EU turns down the proposal then that is just tough cheese for the UK. That banks and the gaming industry are looking at shifting abroad and not be in the UK is just tough cheese for the UK. I'm not sure whether the anger against the EU for doing what is in its best interests is really directed at the EU or peoples own anger at themselves as they wake up to the fact that what was warned about is coming to fruition and that it is easier to blame the EU rather than ourselves for the mess we are getting into and the big hole we are digging for ourselves.

So to repeat the EU does not have to give a damn about the UK anymore if doesn't want to. If you voted to Leave then you have to recognise and accept this. Whinging that the EU is out to get us is completely ridiculous - the only thing they are doing is looking out for the EU's own interests. If we had remained then the EU would have looked out for our own interests to.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


And today I read that there are over 12,000 bits of EU regulation in British law!!!!

Since the mid 1940s that makes up about 10% of the UKs regulation (and that's not considering amendments). It really is insignificant in reality compared to the number the UK has put into place during the same period.

Yeah...the whole Trump thing...is equally appalling, 2016 was not a great moment for US politics in general


And yeah, Cameron using a Brexit referendum as a canard for domestic purposes and then cutting and running when it blew up on him should have resulted in drawing and quartering

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
My views and support of Scottish indy are well known on this forum, but in all honesty, if the EU want to play hardball, then the UK should play hard ball back.

If it were me in 10 Downing Street, I would:

Upgrade Gibraltar to having the same status as any other part of the UK.

Make Gibraltar part of the UK, subject to the same laws and regulations (especially tax policy) and you'll hear champagne popping all over the foreign ministry.

That's what the whole thing is about.

Why do you think Gibraltar, a place with above average British national identity, voted 96% remain? They're not any more europhile than the Cotswolds but knew what was coming, and that they would be sacrificial lambs on the Brexit altar.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


And today I read that there are over 12,000 bits of EU regulation in British law!!!!

12,000 Regulations!!! Holy horsegak!

Quite frankly, I'm glad to see the back of this bureaucratic montrosity.

So what? Is that a lot? Is it relatively little? If this is the best reasoning you can come up with, you're in for a tough time ahead indeed.

 Vaktathi wrote:

And with the UK pulling out, there is a massive black hole in the EU's balance sheet. We are the 2nd biggest contributor. I doubt if German and Dutch taxpayers will be happy at footing the bill to plug the shortfall. sure, and that is another card in the UK's favor, the UK does have some, but the UK has made it clear that it is leaving, that EU funding will be gone and the power it allows the UK to wield will be gone with it, and the EU will have to adapt either way so its value in the negotiations wont be terribly outstanding for the UK.

Not just that. The UK has drawn several lines. One is no financial contribution, other is no free movement.

There's not much room for negotiation in that case. If you don't want to pay club dues anymore you can't expect the club to let you use the swimming pool for old times' sake.

 Whirlwind wrote:
I find it slightly bizarre that there seem to be a lot of people moaning about Brexit even though they supported the idea of leaving. It really is time to wake up now. The EU now no longer needs to consider the UK's best interests only for those countries remaining. As such it does not have to mediate between Spain and UK on Gibraltar. The EU will just support Spain. The EU does not need to think of the UKs best interest in the upcoming negotiations, if an area that is in the EU turns down the proposal then that is just tough cheese for the UK. That banks and the gaming industry are looking at shifting abroad and not be in the UK is just tough cheese for the UK. I'm not sure whether the anger against the EU for doing what is in its best interests is really directed at the EU or peoples own anger at themselves as they wake up to the fact that what was warned about is coming to fruition and that it is easier to blame the EU rather than ourselves for the mess we are getting into and the big hole we are digging for ourselves.

So to repeat the EU does not have to give a damn about the UK anymore if doesn't want to. If you voted to Leave then you have to recognise and accept this. Whinging that the EU is out to get us is completely ridiculous - the only thing they are doing is looking out for the EU's own interests. If we had remained then the EU would have looked out for our own interests to.

Bingo, have a cookie.
I think the scales will be falling from the eyes of the 52% quite quickly over the next few years.
But, i think there will still be some who will blame the EU for everything, even after we've been out for 10 years.

It's just become a big boogie man to blame for everything gak that happens, and that's a tough habit to break.

But the the only one I want to see destitue and peniless is that smug Rees-Mog. That would be ace

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
There's a pretty famous quotation about what "Eye for an eye" leads to. It isn't good.

Perhaps someone should remind Juncker of that?

I'll back Texas independence, EU's Juncker warns Trump

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
There's a pretty famous quotation about what "Eye for an eye" leads to. It isn't good.

Perhaps someone should remind Juncker of that?

I'll back Texas independence, EU's Juncker warns Trump

That's just stupid...

Maybe he's being tongue in cheek but he's still a drunken idiot.

Oh, and to organize all those tax breaks for multi-nationals whilst PM of Luxembourg, only to turn around and attempt to punish Ireland for doing something similar once? feth you Drunker.

The Gibraltar issue always was recognised as yet another fly in the Brexit ointment, though a small one among many much larger ones.

However I agree, if the EU is going to vindictively pauperise the UK for the temerity of leaving, we really are better off out.

On a more practical note, there are only 30,000 people in Gibraltar. Its true value to the UK is a highly strategic location that was key to the various European and world wars the UK fought between from the late 17th century onwards. Given our current state of armed forces, trying to dig themselves out of a £10 billion hole, perhaps we cannot afford to maintain the fortress any more.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
...However I agree, if the EU is going to vindictively pauperise the UK for the temerity of leaving, we really are better off out.

In that case you'll be pleased with this...

to accusations the EU will punish Britain, Tusk hit back. He said: ‘The EU27 does not and will not pursue a punitive approach.
‘Brexit in itself is already punitive enough.’

http://metro.co.uk/2017/03/31/eu-says-they-will-not-punish-uk-as-brexit-is-punishment-enough-6545276/

 Kilkrazy wrote:
On a more practical note, there are only 30,000 people in Gibraltar. Its true value to the UK is a highly strategic location that was key to the various European and world wars the UK fought between from the late 17th century onwards. Given our current state of armed forces, trying to dig themselves out of a £10 billion hole, perhaps we cannot afford to maintain the fortress any more.

It is the gateway to the Mediterranean and was very useful in days gone by, it's strategic importance is not so great these days. However, military commitment to Gibraltar is very light. A couple of patrol boats, some light infantry and an infrequently utilised airfield.
You'd save more by bumping off a couple of retired Admirals.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


And today I read that there are over 12,000 bits of EU regulation in British law!!!!

12,000 Regulations!!! Holy horsegak!

Quite frankly, I'm glad to see the back of this bureaucratic montrosity.

So what? Is that a lot? Is it relatively little? If this is the best reasoning you can come up with, you're in for a tough time ahead indeed.

Probably because back in the 1970s, the UK was sold the dream that the EEC was a loose trading alliance. Since then, it has morphed into this centralised, bureaucratic monstrosity, a paradise for every spiv lobbying group out there, with tentacles reaching into areas previously unheard off.

When it comes to pen pushing and red tape, Brussels makes the Federal government in Washington look like a bunch of amateurs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The Gibraltar issue always was recognised as yet another fly in the Brexit ointment, though a small one among many much larger ones.

However I agree, if the EU is going to vindictively pauperise the UK for the temerity of leaving, we really are better off out.

On a more practical note, there are only 30,000 people in Gibraltar. Its true value to the UK is a highly strategic location that was key to the various European and world wars the UK fought between from the late 17th century onwards. Given our current state of armed forces, trying to dig themselves out of a £10 billion hole, perhaps we cannot afford to maintain the fortress any more.

For the life of me, I cannot understand why they want to provoke antagony between two NATO members over such a strategic location...

God forbid, May could end up using Gibraltar to bolster her support in much the same way Thatcher did with the Falklands...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Whirlwind wrote:
I find it slightly bizarre that there seem to be a lot of people moaning about Brexit even though they supported the idea of leaving. It really is time to wake up now. The EU now no longer needs to consider the UK's best interests only for those countries remaining. As such it does not have to mediate between Spain and UK on Gibraltar. The EU will just support Spain. The EU does not need to think of the UKs best interest in the upcoming negotiations, if an area that is in the EU turns down the proposal then that is just tough cheese for the UK. That banks and the gaming industry are looking at shifting abroad and not be in the UK is just tough cheese for the UK. I'm not sure whether the anger against the EU for doing what is in its best interests is really directed at the EU or peoples own anger at themselves as they wake up to the fact that what was warned about is coming to fruition and that it is easier to blame the EU rather than ourselves for the mess we are getting into and the big hole we are digging for ourselves.

So to repeat the EU does not have to give a damn about the UK anymore if doesn't want to. If you voted to Leave then you have to recognise and accept this. Whinging that the EU is out to get us is completely ridiculous - the only thing they are doing is looking out for the EU's own interests. If we had remained then the EU would have looked out for our own interests to.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


And today I read that there are over 12,000 bits of EU regulation in British law!!!!

Since the mid 1940s that makes up about 10% of the UKs regulation (and that's not considering amendments). It really is insignificant in reality compared to the number the UK has put into place during the same period.

The key difference here is that British laws and regulations were enacted by MPs elected by the British people.

Yes. So are the EU regulations.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Yes. So are the EU regulations.

50 British MEPs getting smacked down by 500+ MEPs from the rest of the EU is not my idea of the British people getting a say in EU regulations!

YMMV.