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Made in us
Trigger-Happy Baal Predator Pilot





Chicago

So, I've been playing 40k since the mid-90s, I've read almost all of the rulebooks and codexes cover to cover from the dawn of 3rd ed on, I've read a few of the books (I'm enough of a sci-fi snob to avoid them, generally, like, when it comes to an actual novel, I deserve better), so I feel like I've got a pretty good idea of what's going on in the 40k universe.

I just started getting into playing 30k, as I find it to be as fun as 40k used to be but hasn't been in a long time, which means I sort of want to up my fluff understanding of what's going on in the galaxy ten thousand years earlier than what I'm used to, since 40k fluff only makes passing references to what happened back then, and a lot of stuff has been ret-conned in the last 20 years.

Still, I'm a little baffled by how little the two eras of fluff gel, and I'm wondering if I just haven't read enough (so far two novels and book 1 betrayal), or if these inconsistencies are due to ret-conning, or just good ole fashioned inconsistency. Like, I get the warham universe doesn't have to make sense. I'm pretty okay with that. This isn't Kim Stanley Robinson or Richard K. Morgan, this is the softest of soft sci fi. The star wars universe doesn't make sense either, but damned if I don't enjoy space opera, you know? So I'm okay with that as an explanation, too!

Anyway, here are the couple of questions I have. Maybe they have simple explanations that are buried in fluff or one of the frigging 40 novels that I haven't hit yet, maybe they don't! That's okay too! Any insight you glorious nerds could give me would be rad though!!

1) Chaos gods
What the hell is up with their absence in 30k? I get that psychers are less prevalent in that era, but they're still frigging everywhere. I get that the Eldar 'birthed' slaanesh sometime in the late M20s, 'causing the downfall of their species, a rift in reality, and a new eternal god to mess with us to now be a thing. I get that the chaos gods are 'eternal' in the sense that time doesn't exist for them in the unreality of the warp, so by the reckoning of time in real space a god like slaanesh can *only* be many thousands of years old. Still, where are all the other warp baddies in 30k? Nurgle and Khorne and Tzeentch, and all the other lesser goons of the warp. I get that at the dawn of the crusade no imperial humans were actively courting them, but it seems hard to just ignore their existence, which the 'secular' imperium of the early crusade had no problem doing for centuries. Like, you can not believe in fire all you want, but if you're living next to a raging inferno, you're just as dead. Did humanity have to hit a critical mass of psychers or did their existence have to become known enough for humans to actively court them for their influence on reality to grow to the point of something that you can't ignore? Did we pull an Eldar x3 and birth three evil gods? Is this ever explained???

2) Technology

A lot of technology gets rapidly developed during the crusade era. It's almost like those warhammer humans know how to learn and build things like we do in real life, which of course is NOTHING like the way 40k era humans behave. To the credit of the creators of the universe, they at least slightly try to explain this, where as other equally or more popular sci-fi universes with timelines spanning tens or hundreds of thousands of years do not (looking at you, dune and star wars). Okay, so I get in the 40k era nobody is really taught science and engineering the way we are right now. All of that learning is tightly controlled and guarded by a religious institution (the mechanicus) like in A Canticle for Leibowitz or Anathem. This would make the sort of education I got at my public high school seem as accessible to your average imperial citizen as some velum bound tome in the depths of the vatican would be to me. That's fine, and would actually believably slow down or stall entirely all scientific progress. I get that 'computers' as we know them aren't really a thing in 40k or 30k due to the backlash from the rise of the machines in the M20s, so much like in Dune, and for the exact same reasons, all totally electronic computers are kept extremely simple, and all complex computing is done by cyborgs. Got it. That would also believably stall technological progress and the dissemination of information. Only real beef here is all it would take is one isolated world to go 'eff all that', and assuming they had resources and a large population, go from the discovery of electricity to the building of a super computer in about a century, BUT ANYWAY, going on, these don't seem to be problems in 30k. Pre-great crusade there's no mechanicus on earth, yet they have advanced technology, albiet in a barbaric, isolated, war torn society. The emperor makes a pact with mars needing them to expand his fleets and arm his soldiery if he's going to conquer the galaxy, despite, according to all fluff, the mechanicum being ABYSMAL at things like RnD, mass production and good ole fashioned teaching. Is any of this ever explained? Is the mechanicum of M30 significantly different to the mechanicum of M41? Because in M41 they seem to be as helpful and hurtful to humanity in equal measures being all "ooooh we can build crazy advanced almost godlike technology, buuuut really inconsistently and only in tiny quantities, and also we're going to cockblock all learning enough so that no one else can build a flashlight without us." Those don't seem like guys you want on your side.
Also are 'machine spirits' ever really explained? In 40k even simple technology needs them to function, and they seem to be more than mere superstition, since mechanicum tech priests can do things like control and break or repair machines seeming through magic. In 30k this doesn't really seem to be a thing. Is this just good ole fashioned inconsistency? How do other races (like tau) build things without them?


Okay, that's about it. I know this is a lot and I'm getting into serious nerd territory here, even by standards already set by being on a warhammer message board, so if any of you read all of this, I love you

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/10 13:54:04


 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





 Walnuts wrote:
1) Chaos gods
What the hell is up with their absence in 30k? I get that psychers are less prevalent in that era, but they're still frigging everywhere. I get that the Eldar 'birthed' slaanesh sometime in the late M20s, 'causing the downfall of their species, a rift in reality, and a new eternal god to mess with us to now be a thing. I get that the chaos gods are 'eternal' in the sense that time doesn't exist for them in the unreality of the warp, so by the reckoning of time in real space a god like slaanesh can *only* be many thousands of years old. Still, where are all the other warp baddies in 30k? Nurgle and Khorne and Tzeentch, and all the other lesser goons of the warp. I get that at the dawn of the crusade no imperial humans were actively courting them, but it seems hard to just ignore their existence, which the 'secular' imperium of the early crusade had no problem doing for centuries. Like, you can not believe in fire all you want, but if you're living next to a raging inferno, you're just as dead. Did humanity have to hit a critical mass of psychers or did their existence have to become known enough for humans to actively court them for their influence on reality to grow to the point of something that you can't ignore? Did we pull an Eldar x3 and birth three evil gods? Is this ever explained???

Without a vast base of mortal followers that the Heresy itself provided, the Chaos Gods were very limited. Many of the races that supported them and gave them devotion were killed off during the Great Crusade. When the Imperium split, half of the Legions and many ex-Imperial worlds and soldiers tithed themselves to Chaos, giving them a proper mortal backbone, and people to summon in their daemons to the Materium.

TL;DR - Chaos didn't have as many mortal followers to summon in daemons during 30k. The fallen marines gave them that power after the Heresy.

2) Technology

A lot of technology gets rapidly developed during the crusade era. It's almost like those warhammer humans know how to learn and build things like we do in real life, which of course is NOTHING like the way 40k era humans behave. To the credit of the creators of the universe, they at least slightly try to explain this, where as other equally or more popular sci-fi universes with timelines spanning tens or hundreds of thousands of years do not (looking at you, dune and star wars). Okay, so I get in the 40k era nobody is really taught science and engineering the way we are right now. All of that learning is tightly controlled and guarded by a religious institution (the mechanicus) like in A Canticle for Leibowitz or Anathem. This would make the sort of education I got at my public high school seem as accessible to your average imperial citizen as some velum bound tome in the depths of the vatican would be to me. That's fine, and would actually believably slow down or stall entirely all scientific progress. I get that 'computers' as we know them aren't really a thing in 40k or 30k due to the backlash from the rise of the machines in the M20s, so much like in Dune, and for the exact same reasons, all totally electronic computers are kept extremely simple, and all complex computing is done by cyborgs. Got it. That would also believably stall technological progress and the dissemination of information. Only real beef here is all it would take is one isolated world to go 'eff all that', and assuming they had resources and a large population, go from the discovery of electricity to the building of a super computer in about a century, BUT ANYWAY, going on, these don't seem to be problems in 30k. Pre-great crusade there's no mechanicus on earth, yet they have advanced technology, albiet in a barbaric, isolated, war torn society. The emperor makes a pact with mars needing them to expand his fleets and arm his soldiery if he's going to conquer the galaxy, despite, according to all fluff, the mechanicum being ABYSMAL at things like RnD, mass production and good ole fashioned teaching. Is any of this ever explained? Is the mechanicum of M30 significantly different to the mechanicum of M41? Because in M41 they seem to be as helpful and hurtful to humanity in equal measures being all "ooooh we can build crazy advanced almost godlike technology, buuuut really inconsistently and only in tiny quantities, and also we're going to cockblock all learning enough so that no one else can build a flashlight without us." Those don't seem like guys you want on your side.
Also are 'machine spirits' ever really explained? In 40k even simple technology needs them to function, and they seem to be more than mere superstition, since mechanicum tech priests can do things like control and break or repair machines seeming through magic. In 30k this doesn't really seem to be a thing. Is this just good ole fashioned inconsistency? How do other races (like tau) build things without them?


I'm not overly sure about this one, but I think novels like Mechanicum (a very good book regardless) would have some answers to this, as well as this certain passage about the AdMech, which describes it's status very well.

Spoiler:
"The Mechanicus does NOT have the technology. They haven't been living on some fancy paradise planet since pre-Fall. Mars is an anarchic nightmare fethhole the moment you leave the safe zones into the kilometres of labyrinthine corridors beneath it full of rogue machinery, self-aware and malevolent AI from before the Fall, and the daemon programs of the Heresy. EVERYTHING in the databases is fethed. The databases are fragmented over the entire surface to the extent that it would be impossible to see one tenth of the total files in the ludicrously extended life of a Magos even assuming that they are completely safe to visit. And they are not.

The files have been corrupted into madness by the Fall, and the unleashing of the most potent informational warfare systems ever to exist to defeat the Iron Men. Nearly all of Mars was rendered uninhabitable, what they live in now is built on the top of the ruins. They send archeotech expeditions in to find gak, nearly all of them never come back. The sheer number of rogue war machine running around in there is sufficient to rape the mind. Then came the Heresy, which was not earth-exclusive. Mars as the second most critical planet in the Imperium was the site of fighting nearly as ferocious as on Terra, with Mechanicus loyalists and Hereteks fighting tooth, nail, and mechadendrite everywhere. Ancient machines were unleashed, viruses both normal and daemonic unleashed into all the computer systems. Towards the close of the Heresy, Rogal Dorn sent some Space Marine operatives to wipe the planet clean of all life. Nearly every single stored record on Mars was rendered unusable, and those that survived are half the time self-aware and don't like you, or daemonic and actively try to kill you.

If you come back with a schematic, it is almost certainly gibberish, and if it isn't, it's probably corrupted into uselessness. If it does come back whole it was probably malevolently fethed with so that instead of a Lasgun power cell it's a fething grenade set to detonate the second you finish building it. Why do you think they want off-world STCs so damned much if they had them all here? The fething Heresy is why. Off-world they only have to contend with the Fall's war and its effects on the machinery plus twenty thousand years of degradation with no maintenance. But at least off-world it'll probably just not work instead of actively seeking to kill you.

Why do you think they seek to placate the Machine Spirit? It's because it exists. The fragments of trillions of self-aware programs, flourishing during the Dark Age of Technology and shattered by Man in his war with the Iron men, imprisoning the few who had not set themselves irrevocably into the machinery, a prison smashed wide open by the Heresy. Everything that can hold programming in the Imperium has a shard of a program in it. EVERYTHING. And you'd better fething please it or it will do everything in its power to make your day gak. Sure, if it's a Lasgun it'll just not work or start shooting off rounds by itself, but if you piss off a Land Raider you can say bye-bye to half a continent. They apply these principles to things without spirits by habit, since they're so used to dealing with tanks that if not talked to just right might go rogue and annihilate the Manufactorum before they can be killed.

This is why they do not like ANYONE fething with technology, because it is so rare to find anything that just works it is critical it not be compromised. That, and they do not have the actual knowledge to feth with it intelligently, just through experimentation, which inevitably leads to slaughter. Pressing buttons to see what works is fine in a 21st century computer, but it is a very stupid thing to do at the helm of a 410th century starship with the destructive power to end solar systems. The entire knowledge base of humanity was lost. Not forgotten, but outright lost. Everything at all, poof. Nobody knows anything because the Fall fethed everything up and the Heresy double-fethed it. To rebuild the theoretical framework needed to design new technologies that don't kill everyone near them would require starting from the ground up. They don't have the time, they never have, and they never will.

This gets on to the point of war and what it does to technology. Someone will parrot that it makes it go much faster. Yes, it makes practical applications of technology go much faster. It also utterly stops all research on the scientific theories behind those technologies. This means that when war chugs along for a decade or two things get done. It means when it goes on too long you run out of theories to turn into technologies, and then you run out of technologies to apply. You stagnate. When you have been fighting in a war for survival in a drastically overextended empire, this is what happens. You are desperate for any extra materiel that can possibly be produced. Half your entire fething military might went rogue, smashed the half that stayed and a whole swathe of the logistical side of your society, leaving you with the tattered shreds of a war machine to keep hold of an empire that was reaching straining point with an army far larger. There is no time for the sort of applied research programs that took Man twenty five thousand years to develop, in a time of unprecedented growth and prosperity.

This is also why the Adeptus Mechanicus insists on cargo cultism. It's because when you are dealing with things you barely understand because everything you knew about them was destroyed it is the safest and most reliable option. The rituals do not exists for mysticism, they exist because they are the most practical means of building, repairing and maintaining the equipment they have with the knowledge surviving. You don't understand why pressing that button makes it go, because the manual tried to take over your brain and the copies are all unreadable and the research base that would let you reverse-engineer it does not exist and cannot be built.

Why are the Tau doing so well with their technology? Because they had peace. Eight thousand years unmolested by any enemy and they were helped the entire time by the most advanced biological race in the galaxy. Give the Imperium eight thousand years of peace and I can guarantee you it will be harder than it was during the Great Crusade.

Since some still don't get the idea, try this:

Build a library, fill it with all human knowledge. You take it elsewhere when you need a book from it, but the book is only a simplified copy. You don't understand the real book, and you don't need to. Nobody takes the real books anywhere because why would you, when there's a whole library there?

Now that library goes rogue and the maintenance machinery starts killing everyone any-fething-where near it. Where the feth did they all come from, you swear to god there weren't this many, and there weren't because they're using the library's information to fight their war. The government fights a battle that destroys the planet against these robots and tears apart the library to stop them using it, only to be destroyed in the process. The library is leveled, cast into flames, every book burned and every computer virus-laden.

Then comes a man who worked there. He talks to the few surviving library workers, assembles their information, and starts rebuilding a city around the library and expanding it as the librarians find little scraps of paper and fragmented bits of files that stuck together just right read something. They rebuild a library from scrap on the ashes of the old. It isn't a shadow on the glory of the old, but it is all they have.

Then the city turns on itself, kills its master, and the librarians turn to rage. Half of them kill the other half and destroy the remnants of the library because where they're going they won't need science. Everything burns, and the city is left to a scattered few survivors, walls open to the world, with the hungry predators circling.

The Adeptus Mechanicus is the sole surviving librarian, desperately scrabbling through the ashes of paper and splinters of hard drives for anything to help him and the city he needs to survive just a second longer.

The Imperium isn't grim because things suck by choice and could be fine if a sensible person came along. That sensible person wouldn't survive fifty seconds of the reality. The Imperium is grim because every single gak decision, every single sacrifice, every single death, every single man woman and child suffering a gak life in the worst conditions imaginable, is the absolute best that can be done. It is a study of the worst happening to everyone and what part of your humanity must be sacrificed today just to stand a chance of survival, and all it asks is whether or not it would have perhaps been better to die."

(I've amended most of the swearing, but it's from 1d4chan - I may have missed some)


They/them

 
   
Made in us
Trigger-Happy Baal Predator Pilot





Chicago

Ahaha! So we did destroy the galaxy! Good to know

 
   
Made in us
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





A few things.

The warp during the Age of Strife was so wild that it became impossible to traverse. With the birth of Slaanesh, there was this great force that spread across the galaxy, calming the warp and making it possible to travel once again, with the help of the Astronomicon. At this time, the warp was far, far calmer than it would be during M41. The other chaos gods existed, but the Great Game was shifting as the Emperor made himself known. It would be one of the extremely rare times when the four chaos gods would come together to attempt to stop the Emperor. Now the years surrounding the Horus Heresy were shrouded from the Emperor's senses, as it was the chaos god's direct influence that kept him from seeing the exact events. In return, the Emperor's Imperial Truth, did weaken chaos by eliminating any and all forms of worship, a chunk of which would have been considered as direct chaos worship. However, it denied the Imperium a powerful weapon of their own, which was faith. With the strength of the warp having waned, and with few active worshipers, chaos was nowhere close to the power that it would eventually achieve, once the warp really started to grow tumultuous.

As for technology, first the Mechanicum =/= the Adeptus Mechanicus.
The two are vastly different in how they operate. For one, the Mechanicum is not considered part of the Imperium. It is an allied entity. Within the Mechanicum, each forge world has a great deal of autonomy. Research is done fairly regularly and plenty of forge worlds developed new technologies, however STC tech was still considered the pinnacle of any finding. They also did a good job teaching, specifically techmarines, as shown in the novella, Cybernetica, who were fully capable of operating and customizing devices (within reason). However, with this autonomy came rebellion, and plenty of forge worlds turned against the Emperor, the Fabricator General of Mars being one of them. Because of this, after the Heresy, the Machine Cult was more firmly integrated into the Imperium and it was established as one of the Adeptus. the Mechanicum was no more and in its place was the Adeptus Mechanicus. There's still a ton of grey areas concerning where they have autonomy and where they don't and that varies by forge world, but it's nothing compared to what the Mechanicum had. With the Heresy and the shift to the Adeptus Mechanicus, the primary goal of the Machine Cult shifted from discovery to preservation. The two were always important before, but the emphasis had changed. Dozens of forge worlds had been lost, and with the waxing power of the warp, technological corruption was more common than ever. Whole fields of study were banned, more so than previously, due to no longer having a safe way to study them anymore and the risk of messing up a study being too great.

As an aside, there are plenty of things that the Imperium manufactures with little or no AdMech involvement or oversight. Every hive world and industrial world, as well as the majority of civilized worlds, will have plenty of manufacturing. There are plenty of corporations and other legal entities that have been given the seal of approval by the AdMech to operate mass-production. It's certainly not limited to forge worlds.
   
Made in us
Trigger-Happy Baal Predator Pilot





Chicago

Which all makes sense, but then still offers no explanation for why any sort of imperial or non-imperial world cut off from from the oversight of the adeptus mechanicus wouldn't be developing new tech. Like, it doesn't take much tinkering with machinery for groups of humans to figure out how to make it better. Alan Touring took a dozen math nerds and built an analogue computer out of old cans of beans and yarn in a few years back in the 40s, ya know what I mean?
But that's sort of a sci-fi trope that isn't limited to the 40k universe (again, looking at you star wars and dune). Any large group of humans cut off for like a century or two should start making insane improvements.
Just one of those things where, okay, it doesn't make sense, just accept that and move on so it doesn't ruin my game where toy soldiers chainsaw fight each other


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thanks for explaining the dif between the mechanicum and the adeptus mechanicus, didn't fully get that until now!

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/07/10 22:47:06


 
   
Made in us
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





 Walnuts wrote:
Which all makes sense, but then still offers no explanation for why any sort of imperial or non-imperial world cut off from from the oversight of the adeptus mechanicus wouldn't be developing new tech. Like, it doesn't take much tinkering with machinery for groups of humans to figure out how to make it better. Alan Touring took a dozen math nerds and built an analogue computer out of old cans of beans and yarn in a few years back in the 40s, ya know what I mean?
But that's sort of a sci-fi trope that isn't limited to the 40k universe (again, looking at you star wars and dune). Any large group of humans cut off for like a century or two should start making insane improvements.
Just one of those things where, okay, it doesn't make sense, just accept that and move on so it doesn't ruin my game where toy soldiers chainsaw fight each other


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thanks for explaining the dif between the mechanicum and the adeptus mechanicus, didn't fully get that until now!

I knew I left out a part of my explanation! Sorry, I was typing it up in word and it crashed and had to retype it.

In fact, there were tons of advanced worlds found during the Great Crusade. Some cybernetically advanced, some biologically, some psychically, some quantumly (which I don't think is a word). Some that had colonized dozens of star systems on their own, or had formed their own alliances with xenos, or had otherwise successfully maintained some incredible tech from the Dark Age of Technology. But one of the things that was most common among these worlds, was that they had no desire to profess fealty to the Imperium or the Emperor. And because of that, they were invaded and wiped out by the Legions Astartes. The FW Horus Heresy books are filled with Great Crusade-era examples of high-tech worlds that had been conquered. Now plenty of that advanced tech was studied and incorporated into the Imperium, but plenty more was destroyed, considered to be inferior or otherwise tainted in some way. By the time of the Heresy, a tremendous number of these advanced societies had been wiped out. Not all of them, but enough that no other society could push beyond a single sub-sector without being crushed by the weight of the Imperium. Even one that was technologically superior.

Oh, and if you meant during 40k, rather than 30k, there's plenty there too. The difference is there's no quick way to spread that new tech to other worlds. So while a handful of inventors and self-made scientists and engineers may come up with some new technology and change the face of their world for a thousand years, it's highly unlikely that even nearby worlds will ever hear about it. Especially if it's far enough into unsanctioned territory for the AdMech to care. Your only two means of passing that knowledge is by astropath, which is possible but able to be misinterpreted, or by warp ship, which is slow. Both of which are most likely to be operated by an Imperial Adeptus, who could leak this information. At some point, maybe in a month, maybe in 500 years, the AdMech will hear about it and come asking questions.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/07/10 23:28:49


 
   
Made in au
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Australia

 Walnuts wrote:

1) Chaos gods
What the hell is up with their absence in 30k? I get that psychers are less prevalent in that era, but they're still frigging everywhere. I get that the Eldar 'birthed' slaanesh sometime in the late M20s, 'causing the downfall of their species, a rift in reality, and a new eternal god to mess with us to now be a thing. I get that the chaos gods are 'eternal' in the sense that time doesn't exist for them in the unreality of the warp, so by the reckoning of time in real space a god like slaanesh can *only* be many thousands of years old. Still, where are all the other warp baddies in 30k? Nurgle and Khorne and Tzeentch, and all the other lesser goons of the warp. I get that at the dawn of the crusade no imperial humans were actively courting them, but it seems hard to just ignore their existence, which the 'secular' imperium of the early crusade had no problem doing for centuries. Like, you can not believe in fire all you want, but if you're living next to a raging inferno, you're just as dead. Did humanity have to hit a critical mass of psychers or did their existence have to become known enough for humans to actively court them for their influence on reality to grow to the point of something that you can't ignore? Did we pull an Eldar x3 and birth three evil gods? Is this ever explained???


The Chaos Gods are definitely not absent. They are however basically unknown to Imperium. The Horus Heresy novels talk about this a fair bit; superstitions about 'devils' and 'witches' and 'sorcerers' from various tomes that survived from pre-unification Terra, or from worlds that fell into superstition and witchcraft during the Age of Strife. While its never said 'this is Chaos' on the pages, its pretty clear that these are the Chaos Gods at work. The Word Bearers and Thousands Sons novels talk about this the most; Colchis (the planet that Lorgar was raised on) had a very strong religious devotion to what was essentially the Chaos pantheon. While Lorgar unified Colchis under his own visions of the God-Emperor it was after the Word Bearers' rebuke by the Emperor himself that Kor Phaeron and Erebus (Lorgar's adoptive father and his chief chaplain, both natives of Colchis) said to Lorgar 'hey, why don't we go check out the old religion we used to worship before you came along?' which is what led Lorgar on his pilgrimage to the Eye of Terror and the discovery of the Primordial Truth. Meanwhile Magnus most certainly made a bargain with Tzeentch (obviously unknown to Magnus, but such is the nature of the Changer of Ways) to stave off the mutation that was running rampant through the Thousand Sons. And it came as a huge shock to the Thousand Sons that their pet spirit familiars actually turned out to be demons that would possess them, as they turn to desperate measures to defend themselves during the Razing of Prospero.

The Heresy itself was essentially the Chaos Gods' full reveal and its probably arguable that ultimately the Chaos Gods achieved their goals. Whether Horus succeeded or failed is irrelevant, because Lorgar succeeded in bringing the word of Chaos to Humanity.

Also, Chaos is definitely not absent in the 30k Ruleset. Codex: Chaos Demons is a playable army in 30k after all


 
   
Made in ca
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






The reason Chaos had a far less prominent role in the pre-heresy stories is because we're largely focused on the Great Crusade, which the Emperor stamped out any notion of religion and gods (which is what caused the rift with Lorgar) specifically to prevent Chaos from getting followers. From what I gathered, the various "pacifications" were either taking stuff from xeno populations or clearing out what would have been a chaos cult. Big E just got gak done faster and better than the current imperium.

Gwar! wrote:Huh, I had no idea Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines posted on Dakka. Hi Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I have an Autograph!


Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.


When I'm editing alot, you know I have a gakload of homework to (not) do. 
   
 
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