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Buying used is good at the start. After you get set in your ways the missing bits, broken pieces, thick paint removal, spider webs, hair, and random bangs do not add up to the value you saved. The surprises never end buying used. I never save very much, just gave somebody almost market value for substandard kits. Plastic kits = Boxed only. YMMV.

Oggthrok wrote:
I'm getting middle aged. I'm married, and have a kid, and our lives are full of responsibilities I never imagined ten years ago. I still love my old hobby, but suddenly it seems really inconvenient to wedge the gaming table into the kitchen, and drag all of the terrain out of the basement, and try to schedule kid-free time for a friend to visit and play a game. My collection has shrunken tremendously, and I've not played a game of 40k in over a year.

So, for someone like me, X-wing is more attractive not because it's a better game, but because it's a smaller, simpler game, that fits better into my life. So, in retrospect, I guess my problem isn't price at all, but the perceived scale of the game I expect to play in 40k. Next time I get a chance, I should ask a friend to play a 500 point or less game with me, in a 3' x 3' space like X-wing, and see how it plays at that scale.

Hi, old timer!

Some comments:
1. You can teach your kid to play. And set up a permanent game table in the basement, rather than dragging all of the stuff up and down. Make a nice gaming space down there.

2. My friends and I have also switched mostly to boardgaming: Memoir '44, BattleLore, Super Dungeon Explore, Flames of War (Open Fire! boxed set), Zombicide, X-wing, and so on. My rule for new games is that it ALL fits in ONE box (or storage tub). Having less "stuff" for the game simplifies the whole process tremendously.

3. 40k scale creep means that 1,000 is yesterday's 1,500. And there's nothing wrong with playing 1,500 pts of 3E-5E, if that's what you and your friends enjoy. We played 1,000 pts last weekend, and it was fine. 500 pts will play just fine on a kitchen table, especially if you look at Kill Team rules..

Good luck, old man!

tneva82 wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Davor wrote:
So GW can lower prices, we buy more for our army, I am sure a lot of would start buying for other armies as well. That would mean more sales right?

Let's say prices drop 50%. Would you buy MORE than double what you did? Ie you spend 100£/month now. Would you then spend 130£/month?

It's not as black and white. For starters miniatures are niche product. They have user base cap they cannot really exceed. For second it's worse for them if they drop price say 50% and sale # doubles. Also dropping prices isn't quarantee to even result in old players buying more or new players joining up. GW has generated lots of ill will so simply dropping prices isn't going to cause quick change in buying habits...

Great explanation. Thank you very much for it. Yes I know that is not the answer now but my logic of thinking was, before GW had lots of stock, so they produced in volumes. People kept buying a lot. GW now increase prices, still had lots of stalk and people kept buying. Prices keep increasing and finally somewhere people didn't buy as much. Now GW had a lot of stock that wasn't moving. So now GW keeps increasing prices and selling less and less. Profits are going down less and less. GW finally has cut down to the bone because of the changes to one man stores in no where land in a lot of places. GW finally gets rid of all their stock, but still kept raising prices.

Now we see people are really not buying a lot. Why? Because prices were increasing. So if 1+1+1=3, (price increase, less sales, price increase less sales, price increase less sales) wouldn't that mean 3-1-1=2? (Price decrease, more sales)

The thing I find I can't understand is if price increase=less sales, how come a price decrease=/= more sales?

Davor wrote:
The thing I find I can't understand is if price increase=less sales, how come a price decrease=/= more sales?

It increases sales but does it increase more than price lost? Remember not all sale losses are also from price.

If you sell 10 units at 100 each but then drop price to 90 how many you need to sell? 11.111... would be bad deal from GW. They need to sell more than that. Remember they are LOSING MONEY if only result is same people buy more boxes by same money. Price decreases need to either convince you to spend more OR get new players. If prices would drop by 50% say would you increase total money spent on GW stuff by say 20%? 30%?

Also all these price increases, rule quality issues etc have created substantial illwill among players. You don't clear up that and make them instantly return to GW customers just by dropping prices. Really how many of disgruntled ex-GW customers would start buying heavily even if prices would drop by 33%? (which of course is itself unreasonable expectation for price drop amount)

So while price drop could help in LONG TERM it would be very bad for short term. That's not going to be likely solution then at least unless GW decides it's really the last straw.

Also these days there's lot more competition for GW games. Some which has sprung up because GW mishandled their products before. It's harder for them to compete hobby money. Players don't spend X per game they play. They spend X per month which they divide among games they play. Before it was mainly "FB or 40k? Or both?". Now it's "FB? 40k? Warmachine? X-wing? Kings of war?" to name but a few...

 insaniak wrote:

 SolarCross wrote:
That 5% difference would seem to account for how it is that online retailers like Goblin Games can sell ALL their GW at 20% off whilst selling everything else at not better than 15% off.

Not necessarily. A larger discount can be counter-balanced by larger volume of sales. It's not necessarily anything to do with the trade price.

True enough, though when you figure in VAT in the UK being 20% then I don't see how Goblin Gaming can charge 20% less than MSRP on everything GW unless they had a better than average trade price from them.
Look again at the tactical marine box.
GW price £25, Goblin Games price £20
VAT on GG price is £4, meaning when you the punter pay them £20 they only actually get £16 as the VAT man eats the rest.
Now compare with hypothetical trade prices as a percentage of MSRP:
50% of £25 is £12.50
55% of £25 is £13.75
60% of £25 is £15
If GGs trade price is 50% they make £3.50 per box sold
If GGs trade price is 55% (as I know other distributors do) they make £2.25 per box sold
If GGs trade price is 60% (as Azreal thinks) they only make a £1 per box sold

That isn't even profit as that has to cover other selling expenses besides stock purchases. I don't see how GG could make any profit by selling everything at 20% less than MSRP unless their trade price was 55% or less.

tneva82 wrote:

Davor wrote:
The thing I find I can't understand is if price increase=less sales, how come a price decrease=/= more sales?

It increases sales but does it increase more than price lost? Remember not all sale losses are also from price.

If you sell 10 units at 100 each but then drop price to 90 how many you need to sell? 11.111... would be bad deal from GW. They need to sell more than that. Remember they are LOSING MONEY if only result is same people buy more boxes by same money. Price decreases need to either convince you to spend more OR get new players. If prices would drop by 50% say would you increase total money spent on GW stuff by say 20%? 30%?

Thanks for the explanation, that makes more sense. In other words accounting. Thing is, I remember back then a lot of people kept buying even if they didn't need it or use it. They bought all the codices. They bought minis that were not in their army. Price increases stopped people from buying everything. Stopped buying all the codices and only bought for their army only. I would believe if prices dropped people would do this, BUT

Also all these price increases, rule quality issues etc have created substantial illwill among players. You don't clear up that and make them instantly return to GW customers just by dropping prices. Really how many of disgruntled ex-GW customers would start buying heavily even if prices would drop by 33%? (which of course is itself unreasonable expectation for price drop amount)

So are correct here. GW has created a lot of ill will and toxicity. Even dropping prices now is not the solution. Too bad they can't just say "sorry". Actually they can, but they won't for reasons "corporations don't do these things like say sorry.".

So while price drop could help in LONG TERM it would be very bad for short term. That's not going to be likely solution then at least unless GW decides it's really the last straw.

I guess I am looking at long term, while the accountants look at long term and short term. Short term I wasn't looking or thinking at. Thanks for reminding me about that.

Also these days there's lot more competition for GW games. Some which has sprung up because GW mishandled their products before. It's harder for them to compete hobby money. Players don't spend X per game they play. They spend X per month which they divide among games they play. Before it was mainly "FB or 40k? Or both?". Now it's "FB? 40k? Warmachine? X-wing? Kings of war?" to name but a few...

Yeah ironically it was GW who have introduced me to these games because of thier practices. Now my money goes else where as well. I am wondering though, if GW didn't do what they did and kept prices affordable and had a clear concise set of rules and great communication with their fans, would PP have taken off and would we be playing other games? I am sure some would, but I believe a lot of us like me wouldn't have known what PP was or X-wing and other games existed. I am sure the only reasons why PP and games like X-wing are so good is because they have learnt from GW mistakes and GW didn't.

Again, great post and I appreciate the time you took to explain it to me.

 SolarCross wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 SolarCross wrote:
That 5% difference would seem to account for how it is that online retailers like Goblin Games can sell ALL their GW at 20% off whilst selling everything else at not better than 15% off.

Not necessarily. A larger discount can be counter-balanced by larger volume of sales. It's not necessarily anything to do with the trade price.

True enough, though when you figure in VAT in the UK being 20% then I don't see how Goblin Gaming can charge 20% less than MSRP on everything GW unless they had a better than average trade price from them.
Look again at the tactical marine box.
GW price £25, Goblin Games price £20
VAT on GG price is £4, meaning when you the punter pay them £20 they only actually get £16 as the VAT man eats the rest.
Now compare with hypothetical trade prices as a percentage of MSRP:
50% of £25 is £12.50
55% of £25 is £13.75
60% of £25 is £15
If GGs trade price is 50% they make £3.50 per box sold
If GGs trade price is 55% (as I know other distributors do) they make £2.25 per box sold
If GGs trade price is 60% (as Azreal thinks) they only make a £1 per box sold

That isn't even profit as that has to cover other selling expenses besides stock purchases. I don't see how GG could make any profit by selling everything at 20% less than MSRP unless their trade price was 55% or less.

RRP = £25 inclusive of vat.
£20 ex vat (give or take a few pennies)

Goblin Gaming RRP = £20 incl VAT
£16 excl vat

GG don't pay VAT on purchase of stock.

Therefore they're paying the EX VAT price - 40%.

£20 ex vat - 40% = £12

So by selling it at £16 GG are in fact making £4 a box.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just to qualify this - I do know what I'm talking about, I've about 14 years of retail behind me, including 3 years doing it myself!

 JimOnMars wrote:
FFS it's cheaper than golf.

FFS golfs cheaper than racing supercars.

Your using a false equivalency argument even if you don't know it thus invalidating the point you want to make.

Compare like to like which means miniature wargame to miniature wargame, doing anything else is absurd.

tneva82 wrote:Let's say prices drop 50%. Would you buy MORE than double what you did? Ie you spend 100£/month now. Would you then spend 130£/month?

Nope.

I already own a lifetime's worth of GW product. More than I can ever play with. GW cutting price makes it harder for me to sell.

Now, if, by some miracle, I complete all of the GW stuff I own, maybe I'll consider the odd halo kit.

 Azreal13 wrote:

 SolarCross wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 SolarCross wrote:
That 5% difference would seem to account for how it is that online retailers like Goblin Games can sell ALL their GW at 20% off whilst selling everything else at not better than 15% off.

Not necessarily. A larger discount can be counter-balanced by larger volume of sales. It's not necessarily anything to do with the trade price.

True enough, though when you figure in VAT in the UK being 20% then I don't see how Goblin Gaming can charge 20% less than MSRP on everything GW unless they had a better than average trade price from them.
Look again at the tactical marine box.
GW price £25, Goblin Games price £20
VAT on GG price is £4, meaning when you the punter pay them £20 they only actually get £16 as the VAT man eats the rest.
Now compare with hypothetical trade prices as a percentage of MSRP:
50% of £25 is £12.50
55% of £25 is £13.75
60% of £25 is £15
If GGs trade price is 50% they make £3.50 per box sold
If GGs trade price is 55% (as I know other distributors do) they make £2.25 per box sold
If GGs trade price is 60% (as Azreal thinks) they only make a £1 per box sold

That isn't even profit as that has to cover other selling expenses besides stock purchases. I don't see how GG could make any profit by selling everything at 20% less than MSRP unless their trade price was 55% or less.

RRP = £25 inclusive of vat.
£20 ex vat (give or take a few pennies)

Goblin Gaming RRP = £20 incl VAT
£16 excl vat

GG don't pay VAT on purchase of stock.

Therefore they're paying the EX VAT price - 40%.

£20 ex vat - 40% = £12

So by selling it at £16 GG are in fact making £4 a box.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just to qualify this - I do know what I'm talking about, I've about 14 years of retail behind me, including 3 years doing it myself!

The distributor from which I get X-Wing, Malifaux and everything else non-GW sets their trade price from RRP. So it is 55% of RRP.
40% discount from exVAT RRP is a close equivalent to 50% discount from RRP.
£20 ex vat - 40% = £12
£25 RRP - 50% = £12.50
We are talking about the same thing, but either way 40% off of ex vat RRP is better than 45% of off RRP.

If we're talking about the same thing, how are my calculations making 400% more profit on the same figures?

When dealing B2B nobody talks about VAT incl prices, just nobody, because it isn't relevant.

The only way I can see your distributor doing that is that they're so tiny they're not VAT registered or they're actually just a retailer and not a distributor.

 Azreal13 wrote:
If we're talking about the same thing, how are my calculations making 400% more profit on the same figures?

When dealing B2B nobody talks about VAT incl prices, just nobody, because it isn't relevant.

The only way I can see your distributor doing that is that they're so tiny they're not VAT registered or they're actually just a retailer and not a distributor.

You are talking about a 40% discount from ex-Vat RRP whereas I was talking about 50% discount from RRP which is more or less the same thing. How are you not getting that?

The distributor I use, sends me a spreadsheet order form every week, it has the ex-VAT trade price next to the RRP for reference, from this I worked out that their discount is 45% of off RRP because that is just quicker than working out the ex-VAT RRP then working out the discount from that. (Yes they are a proper distributor and they are VAT registered).

Regardless GW's 50% of off RRP which you prefer to present as 40% of off ex-VAT RRP is better than 45% of off RRP which is roughly equivalent to 32% of off ex VAT RRP.

tneva82 wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:
I dunno, I see price gouging on a whole new level between FLGS here:
I see Renegade selling for $190 at the more high volume FLGS and then $250 for the more local store and still see the old Knights on the shelf for $190.

Again that's not gouging. Really people should at least use proper terms.
You claim that's gouging. How those are essentials you need to buy?

"Price gouging is a pejorative term referring to when a seller spikes the prices of goods, services or commodities to a level much higher than is considered reasonable or fair, and is considered exploitative, potentially to an unethical extent."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_gouging
- pricing above the market when no alternative retailer is available (wordnet.princeton.edu)
I think the definition you are working from on "price gouging" is different from what I have seen.
The definitions do not require the commodity to be "essential".
If a big event is being held in a city and hotel rooms double in cost: that is price gouging (even more so if it is the ONLY hotel).
Many would argue in most causes "gouging" is merely a response to market supply vs demand and "adjusting" accordingly.

My issue with my original statement is I WANT to buy from my local FLGS because he hosts games BUT he marks up his stuff so high I cannot with good conscience ever buy big items there.

 SolarCross wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
If we're talking about the same thing, how are my calculations making 400% more profit on the same figures?

When dealing B2B nobody talks about VAT incl prices, just nobody, because it isn't relevant.

The only way I can see your distributor doing that is that they're so tiny they're not VAT registered or they're actually just a retailer and not a distributor.

You are talking about a 40% discount from ex-Vat RRP whereas I was talking about 50% discount from RRP which is more or less the same thing. How are you not getting that?

The distributor I use, sends me a spreadsheet order form every week, it has the ex-VAT trade price next to the RRP for reference, from this I worked out that their discount is 45% of off RRP because that is just quicker than working out the ex-VAT RRP then working out the discount from that. (Yes they are a proper distributor and they are VAT registered).

Regardless GW's 50% of off RRP which you prefer to present as 40% of off ex-VAT RRP is better than 45% of off RRP which is roughly equivalent to 32% of off ex VAT RRP.

A government levied sales tax has absolutely no relevance to the cost of a product to your business. You will confuse any number of people familiar with the process of buying goods at wholesale (me included evidently) by referring to this in the bass ackwards manner you're doing. It's not a preference, it's how it's done. VAT could change tomorrow, it will have no bearing on the cost of the same product to your business, nor will it alter the discount you're receiving, yet by your method, it would.

Say something costs £100ex vat RRP, with a discount of 40% meaning that the business pays £60 for it.

If you use your method, 50% of the VAT inclusive price is £60, which comes out the same.

Now, if Theresa puts VAT up to 25% when she moves into Downing St tomorrow, that same product will now retail for £125.

If we now apply your method, all of a sudden the cost of the product is £62.50, but there's been no change to wholesale discount or actual wholesale cost.

If we use my method, nothing has changed other than the final price the consumer pays, which is as it should be.

You're free to use any method you see fit in your own day to day operations, of course, but it would have been much easier if you communicated using the conventional expression because, frankly, it came across as you didn't have a clue what you were talking about. Also, personally, I'd feel more comfortable with tighter control over my margins than what appears to be a much woolier and imprecise method, but if it works for you I'm in no place to criticize.

Talizvar wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

My issue with my original statement is I WANT to buy from my local FLGS because he hosts games BUT he marks up his stuff so high I cannot with good conscience ever buy big items there.

Economics 101. Give the customer what they want. He is not giving you want you want so you have to go else where. You are looking for a cheaper price, you found a cheaper price, it's up to the store now to match or at least entice you to buy there still. If not he is not giving you what you want and it's the stores loss. Sometimes stores and GW forgets, they need us, we don't need them (to a point).

 Azreal13 wrote:

Plus, FW can actually cast stuff to order while you wait at WHW, and post isn't that fast

Forgeworld were for a time getting some stuff cast in China... (That was when the market was suddenly flooded with cheap Forgeworld knock-offs... Speculation at the time was that at least some of them were probably being cast 'out of hours' in Forgeworld's own moulds) but was eventually all pulled back to the UK.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JimOnMars wrote:
FFS it's cheaper than golf.

How is that relevant?


Are there many people out there trying to decide between wargaming or golf as a potential hobby?

*Edit* Internet did a stupid.

Cry a river. I am going to repeat what these dipships told me when I said GW was too expensive, "Get a better higher paying job."

"Its not GW's fault you are broke af poor low income trash."

I hope these people eat GW glue and choke on greenstuff.

Lovely...

Grief wrote:
Cry a river. I am going to repeat what these dipships told me when I said GW was too expensive, "Get a better higher paying job."

"Its not GW's fault you are broke af poor low income trash."

While that's a somewhat indelicate way of putting it, it's not really wrong.

If you can't afford a given hobby, the answer is to either find a way to make it affordable, or find a different hobby. There is no obligation for the company that makes the product you want to lower their prices just because they're out of your price range.


I'd love to be in a position to buy as many miniatures now as I was buying 10 years ago... But I can't. So I don't.

hobojebus wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:
FFS it's cheaper than golf.

FFS golfs cheaper than racing supercars.

Your using a false equivalency argument even if you don't know it thus invalidating the point you want to make.

Compare like to like which means miniature wargame to miniature wargame, doing anything else is absurd.

No, it is not absurd. People enjoy golf, like 40k. It takes about the same time, can be played with 2 in match play (or 4, like a game of 40k with friends.)

They are not identical, no, but the comparison is not a false equivalency. It is a near-true equivalency. Providing a counter-example that shows that other games are worse is quite illustrative.

Perhaps the OP can read this example and get a grip on himself. Yes, it's expensive, but few complain that golf is too expensive.

Why?

People who want to play golf save their pennies and buy golf clubs.

What do you know!! The OP can do the same thing! Does he want a wraithknight? He could work his minimum wage job for 20 hours and then he is done! Instant wraithknight! Do that a few times, and he has a VERY tough list for 40k.

And then OP can play and play and play, for free, gaining hundreds or thousands of hours of enjoyment out of his purchase.

It's not that hard.

 JimOnMars wrote:
Does he want a wraithknight? He could work his minimum wage job for 20 hours and then he is done!

Yeah! Eating is for quitters!

You're arguing ad absurdum.

"This is cheap because another thing is more expensive," while true, is a meaningless argument, and we can keep going in both directions with examples that don't actually prove anything.

Something else costing more money has absolutely no relevance, because this is not necessarily something I'm interested in spending money on, whereas other war games being cheaper/more expensive does, as, this being a wargame forum, it's a reasonable assumption other games may be something that would appeal to a typical poster.

I, for instance, might be a bit miffed that something I wanted to buy from GW is priced at a point I can't either afford, or where the price exceeds what I deem reasonable for it.

In contrast, I couldn't give three tenths of a purple feth that cross stitch kits have never been more affordable, or whatever.

 JimOnMars wrote:
Yes, it's expensive, but few complain that golf is too expensive.

If you Google 'Is golf too expensive?' the very first hit is an article talking about how golf is too expensive for beginners, and that the game is declining as a result.

So even if comparing two completely different hobbies did mean anything, golf is possibly not the best example for your argument...

 insaniak wrote:

Grief wrote:
Cry a river. I am going to repeat what these dipships told me when I said GW was too expensive, "Get a better higher paying job."

"Its not GW's fault you are broke af poor low income trash."

While that's a somewhat indelicate way of putting it, it's not really wrong.

If you can't afford a given hobby, the answer is to either find a way to make it affordable, or find a different hobby. There is no obligation for the company that makes the product you want to lower their prices just because they're out of your price range.


I'd love to be in a position to buy as many miniatures now as I was buying 10 years ago... But I can't. So I don't.

But GW isn't the hobby wargaming is the hobby.

I can afford wargaming be it flames of war, x-wing or the batman game.

What I can't do is buy 40k without feeling ripped off even from 3rd party sellers.

I dropped £63 on grimballs beasts without batting an eyelid because it gave me a 1500 point force to start with, that same amount only gets me the codex and a single squad for 40k.

Wargaming is very affordable so long as you avoid GW and pp.

The comparison that really drives home the absurdity of some of GW's pricing is Gundam models. They prove that it is entirely possible to make large, detailed plastic models meant for serious collectors at a fraction of what GW asks.

 TheWaspinator wrote:
The comparison that really drives home the absurdity of some of GW's pricing is Gundam models. They prove that it is entirely possible to make large, detailed plastic models meant for serious collectors at a fraction of what GW asks.

Well, yes... All you have to do is manufacture them in China or Taiwan, and sell around a thousand times more of them...

The thing is, GW's prices have always been far more about 'perceived value' rather than just reliant on the cost of manufacture.

Bandai / Namco is a 5 BILLION dollar company.

Games Workshop is like 150 million dollar company.

When you compare Gundam vs Warhammer 40k, it's no contest. The Gundam toy/hobby line alone is larger all of GW combined.

hobojebus wrote:

But GW isn't the hobby wargaming is the hobby.

I can afford wargaming be it flames of war, x-wing or the batman game.

What I can't do is buy 40k without feeling ripped off even from 3rd party sellers.

I dropped £63 on grimballs beasts without batting an eyelid because it gave me a 1500 point force to start with, that same amount only gets me the codex and a single squad for 40k.

Wargaming is very affordable so long as you avoid GW and pp.

Affordable is a relative term though. I'm finding 40k quite affordable so far, mostly through mercilessly exploiting ebay, but still. Maybe I could have my wargaming for even less if I went with FoW, King's of War or X-Wing but none of those games interest me on any level. As an analogy if you were a passionate fine whiskey drinker would you be tempted by someone telling you that you could get pissed for half the cost if you drank vodka instead?

Exactly so! Mantic is a lot cheaper than GW, and it shows. For example: